On the Tearing Down of Statues

 

“Every statue of an old and all-too-human benefactor or hero that comes tumbling down is a memorial raised to our intolerance, our unwillingness to forgive. We find fault where there is fault to find, and we are glad to find it, because we have so little that is virtuous and beautiful to show on our own account.” – Anthony Esolen

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  1. colleenb Member
    colleenb
    @colleenb

    Love Anthony Esolen. Thanks.

    • #1
  2. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    I don’t think it’s about an unwillingness to forgive. It’s easy to conceptualize the extreme ends: statues few would object to removing (Stalin, Mao, Mussolini, etc) and statues few would clamor to have removed (Lincoln, MLK, etc). Having typed that I realize that we’ve seen the latter type on display over the last five years. Despite that, I think it’s still fringe – few are clamoring even though many may be blindly following the clamorers and many more still are indifferently refraining from objecting.

    In saner times I think where to draw the line in between the extremes is an interesting question, but I think it would be just as radical to say that no statues should ever come down. Perhaps there is no in between, though. Perhaps it’s all or nothing: either the cultural understanding that drove the statue in the first place remains so the statue remains uncontroversial, or the cultural understanding is gone so the statue becomes either incomprehensible yet uncontroversial or it becomes offensive.

    • #2
  3. DonG (Biden is compromised) Coolidge
    DonG (Biden is compromised)
    @DonG

    I see statues as serving two purposes:
    1) Promoting the founding lore for America to bind us together as a people with an idea about self-governance and liberty.
    2) Commemorating important historical events and places. 

    Confederate hero statues (and base namings) don’t serve either purpose and should go away.  If there is any confusion, I am willing to pronounce judgement.

    • #3
  4. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    I can just see it.  Some maybe near-future sci-fi novel where either aliens or Muslim terrorists or something, do some kind of attack using Confederate tactics and they win easily, because the defenders never learned how to counter them.  Why should they?  Those guys were EVIL RACISTS!  We can’t learn ANYTHING from THEM!

    • #4
  5. cdor Member
    cdor
    @cdor

    Boston city council has voted to remove a statue of Abraham Lincoln with a FREED former slave kneeling by his side. Some people found the statue objectionable. REALLY??? They must be angry that the guy isn’t a slave anymore.

    • #5
  6. cdor Member
    cdor
    @cdor

    Boston city council has voted to remove a statue of Abraham Lincoln with a FREED former slave kneeling by his side. Some people found the statue objectionable. REALLY??? They must be angry that the guy isn’t a slave anymore.

    • #6
  7. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    cdor (View Comment):

    Boston city council has voted to remove a statue of Abraham Lincoln with a FREED former slave kneeling by his side. Some people found the statue objectionable. REALLY??? They must be angry that the guy isn’t a slave anymore.

    Or they’re angry that Lincoln isn’t kneeling before the slave.

    • #7
  8. philo Member
    philo
    @philo

    cdor (View Comment): Boston city council has voted to remove a statue of Abraham Lincoln with a FREED former slave kneeling by his side. Some people found the statue objectionable. REALLY??? They must be angry that the guy isn’t a slave anymore.

    Chalk it up to ignorance with regard to understanding and interpreting the design of the statue.

    • #8
  9. Jules PA Inactive
    Jules PA
    @JulesPA

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    Perhaps it’s all or nothing: either the cultural understanding that drove the statue in the first place remains so the statue remains uncontroversial, or the cultural understanding is gone so the statue becomes either incomprehensible yet uncontroversial or it becomes offensive.

    If a statue becomes incomprehensible, is that the fault of the statue? Or the observer?

    What we learn from statue cancelling is that any memorial needs to be more than simply a statue. Maybe always include a plaque that explicitly defines its purpose. Of course, that presumes people can read, or choose to read.

    It is sad that our shared culture is so small, and that tolerance for the revered memories of others is also small. 

    Newsflash: no human can live up to the lofty and shifting standards of the leftists. Just die, and get out of their way already. sarc/off 

     

    • #9
  10. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    kedavis (View Comment):

    I can just see it. Some maybe near-future sci-fi novel where either aliens or Muslim terrorists or something, do some kind of attack using Confederate tactics and they win easily, because the defenders never learned how to counter them. Why should they? Those guys were EVIL RACISTS! We can’t learn ANYTHING from THEM!

    It’s not the same thing at all. Of course we could and should learn from history, including the nastier and evil bits. Doesn’t mean those bits deserve statues and public space or artistic expression.

    I do think we can stand more nuance and realism in our culture. Evil men can do great things; great men can do evil things. We should be savvy enough to honor great men and great things while being clear-eyed enough to eschew evil men and evil things. The sweet spot of course is good men doing good things.

    • #10
  11. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    I can just see it. Some maybe near-future sci-fi novel where either aliens or Muslim terrorists or something, do some kind of attack using Confederate tactics and they win easily, because the defenders never learned how to counter them. Why should they? Those guys were EVIL RACISTS! We can’t learn ANYTHING from THEM!

    It’s not the same thing at all. Of course we could and should learn from history, including the nastier and evil bits. Doesn’t mean those bits deserve statues and public space or artistic expression.

    I do think we can stand more nuance and realism in our culture. Evil men can do great things; great men can do evil things. We should be savvy enough to honor great men and great things while being clear-eyed enough to eschew evil men and evil things. The sweet spot of course is good men doing good things.

    That’s still thinking like a conservative.  Remember, the left doesn’t think books etc about those people should even exist.  Which means their tactics can’t be studied.

    • #11
  12. DonG (Biden is compromised) Coolidge
    DonG (Biden is compromised)
    @DonG

    philo (View Comment):

    cdor (View Comment): Boston city council has voted to remove a statue of Abraham Lincoln with a FREED former slave kneeling by his side. Some people found the statue objectionable. REALLY??? They must be angry that the guy isn’t a slave anymore.

    Chalk it up to ignorance with regard to understanding and interpreting the design of the statue.

    That statue was paid for by freed slaves.  Ignorance should be fixable with a plaque.  The country needs more plaques.

    • #12
  13. Ed G. Member
    Ed G.
    @EdG

    Jules PA (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    Perhaps it’s all or nothing: either the cultural understanding that drove the statue in the first place remains so the statue remains uncontroversial, or the cultural understanding is gone so the statue becomes either incomprehensible yet uncontroversial or it becomes offensive.

    If a statue becomes incomprehensible, is that the fault of the statue? Or the observer?

    What we learn from statue cancelling is that any memorial needs to be more than simply a statue. Maybe always include a plaque that explicitly defines its purpose. Of course, that presumes people can read, or choose to read.

    It is sad that our shared culture is so small, and that tolerance for the revered memories of others is also small.

    Newsflash: no human can live up to the lofty and shifting standards of the leftists. Just die, and get out of their way already. sarc/off

     

    Jules, your take is slightly different, I think, from the other prominent pro-statue argument which seems to be that statues shouldn’t be removed even if the memory isn’t revered anymore. I agree with you that the shrinking of our shared culture is sad. What happens, though, when the culture is shared but one reveres and another is repulsed? I disagree with mob destruction, but those that are repulsed by a memory have a legitimate right to seek the lawful and civic removal of the repulsive. Same way I can seek to end drag queen story hour without being asked to understand where the drag queens and the enablers are coming from or being asked to be tolerant (aka do nothing about it).

    Another interesting question is why people are now repulsed by what used to be revered? Equally important is why people once revered what is now repulsive?

     

    • #13
  14. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Jules PA (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    Perhaps it’s all or nothing: either the cultural understanding that drove the statue in the first place remains so the statue remains uncontroversial, or the cultural understanding is gone so the statue becomes either incomprehensible yet uncontroversial or it becomes offensive.

    If a statue becomes incomprehensible, is that the fault of the statue? Or the observer?

    What we learn from statue cancelling is that any memorial needs to be more than simply a statue. Maybe always include a plaque that explicitly defines its purpose. Of course, that presumes people can read, or choose to read.

    It is sad that our shared culture is so small, and that tolerance for the revered memories of others is also small.

    Newsflash: no human can live up to the lofty and shifting standards of the leftists. Just die, and get out of their way already. sarc/off

     

    Jules, your take is slightly different, I think, from the other prominent pro-statue argument which seems to be that statues shouldn’t be removed even if the memory isn’t revered anymore. I agree with you that the shrinking of our shared culture is sad. What happens, though, when the culture is shared but one reveres and another is repulsed? I disagree with mob destruction, but those that are repulsed by a memory have a legitimate right to seek the lawful and civic removal of the repulsive. Same way I can seek to end drag queen story hour without being asked to understand where the drag queens and the enablers are coming from or being asked to be tolerant (aka do nothing about it).

    Another interesting question is why some (perhaps actually a small number of very noisy) people are now repulsed by what used to be revered? Equally important is why people once revered what is now repulsive (perhaps to actually a small number of very noisy people)?

     

    There you go.

    • #14
  15. Jules PA Inactive
    Jules PA
    @JulesPA

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Jules PA (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    Perhaps it’s all or nothing: either the cultural understanding that drove the statue in the first place remains so the statue remains uncontroversial, or the cultural understanding is gone so the statue becomes either incomprehensible yet uncontroversial or it becomes offensive.

    If a statue becomes incomprehensible, is that the fault of the statue? Or the observer?

    What we learn from statue cancelling is that any memorial needs to be more than simply a statue. Maybe always include a plaque that explicitly defines its purpose. Of course, that presumes people can read, or choose to read.

    It is sad that our shared culture is so small, and that tolerance for the revered memories of others is also small.

    Newsflash: no human can live up to the lofty and shifting standards of the leftists. Just die, and get out of their way already. sarc/off

     

    Jules, your take is slightly different, I think, from the other prominent pro-statue argument which seems to be that statues shouldn’t be removed even if the memory isn’t revered anymore. I agree with you that the shrinking of our shared culture is sad. What happens, though, when the culture is shared but one reveres and another is repulsed? I disagree with mob destruction, but those that are repulsed by a memory have a legitimate right to seek the lawful and civic removal of the repulsive. Same way I can seek to end drag queen story hour without being asked to understand where the drag queens and the enablers are coming from or being asked to be tolerant (aka do nothing about it).

    Another interesting question is why people are now repulsed by what used to be revered? Equally important is why people once revered what is now repulsive?

     

    Of course, a community can agree to remove a statue. I’m not sure red paint and a sledge hammer in the middle of the night constitutes an agreed upon removal. 

    I can’t say as to why some are repulsed or revered. I just can’t know. 

    Maybe it is the transient and moveable nature of our culture, where new residents don’t understand the history of the places where they live. 

    I’m not a big statue fan, personally, I’d rather read a book. 

    My biggest gripe about the statue argument is the intolerance that is revealed, and the violence in claiming the right to decide. 

     

    • #15
  16. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Jules PA (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Jules PA (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    Perhaps it’s all or nothing: either the cultural understanding that drove the statue in the first place remains so the statue remains uncontroversial, or the cultural understanding is gone so the statue becomes either incomprehensible yet uncontroversial or it becomes offensive.

    If a statue becomes incomprehensible, is that the fault of the statue? Or the observer?

    What we learn from statue cancelling is that any memorial needs to be more than simply a statue. Maybe always include a plaque that explicitly defines its purpose. Of course, that presumes people can read, or choose to read.

    It is sad that our shared culture is so small, and that tolerance for the revered memories of others is also small.

    Newsflash: no human can live up to the lofty and shifting standards of the leftists. Just die, and get out of their way already. sarc/off

     

    Jules, your take is slightly different, I think, from the other prominent pro-statue argument which seems to be that statues shouldn’t be removed even if the memory isn’t revered anymore. I agree with you that the shrinking of our shared culture is sad. What happens, though, when the culture is shared but one reveres and another is repulsed? I disagree with mob destruction, but those that are repulsed by a memory have a legitimate right to seek the lawful and civic removal of the repulsive. Same way I can seek to end drag queen story hour without being asked to understand where the drag queens and the enablers are coming from or being asked to be tolerant (aka do nothing about it).

    Another interesting question is why people are now repulsed by what used to be revered? Equally important is why people once revered what is now repulsive?

     

    Of course, a community can agree to remove a statue. I’m not sure red paint and a sledge hammer in the middle of the night constitutes an agreed upon removal.

    I can’t say as to why some are repulsed or revered. I just can’t know.

    Maybe it is the transient and moveable nature of our culture, where new residents don’t understand the history of the places where they live.

    I’m not a big statue fan, personally, I’d rather read a book.

    My biggest gripe about the statue argument is the intolerance that is revealed, and the violence in claiming the right to decide.

    It’s another of Trump’s victories, where the left dropped their mask

    • #16
  17. Jules PA Inactive
    Jules PA
    @JulesPA

    kedavis (View Comment):
    It’s another of Trump’s victories, where the left dropped their mask

    I can’t disagree. Kind of worth a few bludgeoned statues to see who stands where. 

    • #17
  18. Jon1979 Inactive
    Jon1979
    @Jon1979

    DonG (Biden is compromised) (View Comment):

    I see statues as serving two purposes:
    1) Promoting the founding lore for America to bind us together as a people with an idea about self-governance and liberty.
    2) Commemorating important historical events and places.

    Confederate hero statues (and base namings) don’t serve either purpose and should go away. If there is any confusion, I am willing to pronounce judgement.

    The problem usually is that those with the greatest zeal to take down the statues tend also to be the ones with the Year Zero mindset, where they do not simply want to remove, in this case, Confederate statues, but seek to demonize and remove virtually all statues connected to any part of past American history they find objectionable. Just on Saturday, you had the vandalization of the Abraham Lincoln statue in San Francisco, and throughout the summer, you had people trying to or succeeding in removing statues of Lincoln, other abolitionists, and other presidents like Washington, Jefferson and Jackson.

    People with that mindset see Robert E. Lee only as the appetizer to the main course of total demonization of American history. Which is why taking down statues — or allying with people zealous in their desire to take down statues — should be done only with great caution and with eyes wide open on who you’re partnering with in the effort.

    • #18
  19. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Every statue that comes down hurts people more than leaving it standing.  When a statue is in place, people can talk about its meaning, why it was put up, and decide for themselves if they like it or not.  Tearing down staues also removes a chunk of history – both good and bad – that can teach us lessons . . .

    • #19
  20. Jules PA Inactive
    Jules PA
    @JulesPA

    Stad (View Comment):
    Tearing down staues also removes a chunk of history – both good and bad – that can teach us lessons . . .

    I think that was the goal of the statue snatchers. Reset history. 

    In a few short years, the statue, the history and the memories stirred will be gone from conversation. 

    Right along with the books. 

    This will be a shameful era of purging that will end up being more damaging than any sadness evoked by a statue. 

    • #20
  21. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Jules PA (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):
    Tearing down staues also removes a chunk of history – both good and bad – that can teach us lessons . . .

    I think that was the goal of the statue snatchers. Reset history.

    In a few short years, the statue, the history and the memories stirred will be gone from conversation.

    Right along with the books.

    This will be a shameful era of purging that will end up being more damaging than any sadness evoked by a statue.

    Might be time to start rescuing books from libraries and elsewhere, before they get burned.

    • #21
  22. Jules PA Inactive
    Jules PA
    @JulesPA

    Truth about the books: libraries give them away. But soon they will burn them, for our protection. 

    • #22
  23. Jim McConnell Member
    Jim McConnell
    @JimMcConnell

    I think it’s mostly a waste of time trying to plumb the motivations of vandals. Vandals simply like to vandalize, period.

    • #23
  24. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    cdor (View Comment):

    Boston city council has voted to remove a statue of Abraham Lincoln with a FREED former slave kneeling by his side. Some people found the statue objectionable. REALLY??? They must be angry that the guy isn’t a slave anymore.

    If someone finds it offensive, that’s it – no discussion.. I lived there for over 20 years so not surprised.

    • #24
  25. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):

    cdor (View Comment):

    Boston city council has voted to remove a statue of Abraham Lincoln with a FREED former slave kneeling by his side. Some people found the statue objectionable. REALLY??? They must be angry that the guy isn’t a slave anymore.

    If someone finds it offensive, that’s it – no discussion.. I lived there for over 20 years so not surprised.

    I have a problem with people who find something offensive for ignorant reasons.  That shouldn’t be just end-of-discussion because they don’t know any better.  What it shows is not that whatever needs to come down/out/whatever, but that they need to be educated.

    • #25
  26. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Jules PA (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Jules PA (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    Perhaps it’s all or nothing: either the cultural understanding that drove the statue in the first place remains so the statue remains uncontroversial, or the cultural understanding is gone so the statue becomes either incomprehensible yet uncontroversial or it becomes offensive.

    If a statue becomes incomprehensible, is that the fault of the statue? Or the observer?

    What we learn from statue cancelling is that any memorial needs to be more than simply a statue. Maybe always include a plaque that explicitly defines its purpose. Of course, that presumes people can read, or choose to read.

    It is sad that our shared culture is so small, and that tolerance for the revered memories of others is also small.

    Newsflash: no human can live up to the lofty and shifting standards of the leftists. Just die, and get out of their way already. sarc/off

     

    Jules, your take is slightly different, I think, from the other prominent pro-statue argument which seems to be that statues shouldn’t be removed even if the memory isn’t revered anymore. I agree with you that the shrinking of our shared culture is sad. What happens, though, when the culture is shared but one reveres and another is repulsed? I disagree with mob destruction, but those that are repulsed by a memory have a legitimate right to seek the lawful and civic removal of the repulsive. Same way I can seek to end drag queen story hour without being asked to understand where the drag queens and the enablers are coming from or being asked to be tolerant (aka do nothing about it).

    Another interesting question is why people are now repulsed by what used to be revered? Equally important is why people once revered what is now repulsive?

     

    Of course, a community can agree to remove a statue. I’m not sure red paint and a sledge hammer in the middle of the night constitutes an agreed upon removal.

    I can’t say as to why some are repulsed or revered. I just can’t know.

    Maybe it is the transient and moveable nature of our culture, where new residents don’t understand the history of the places where they live.

    I’m not a big statue fan, personally, I’d rather read a book.

    My biggest gripe about the statue argument is the intolerance that is revealed, and the violence in claiming the right to decide.

    It’s another of Trump’s victories, where the left dropped their mask

    As did many ostensibly on the Right.

    • #26
  27. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    DonG (Biden is compromised) (View Comment):

    I see statues as serving two purposes:
    1) Promoting the founding lore for America to bind us together as a people with an idea about self-governance and liberty.
    2) Commemorating important historical events and places.

    Confederate hero statues (and base namings) don’t serve either purpose and should go away. If there is any confusion, I am willing to pronounce judgement.

    The people who like the Confederate statues are the most patriotic people in America, many with a long history of military service inspired by the heroism of their ancestors in defense of their homes and families; all this does is breed alienation and resentment within a culture that conservatives need the support of in order to withstand the Leftist onslaught.  You do not wish to tear down these statues in order to ‘bind us together’, you simply find them offensive and don’t care about the people it hurts, hoping that the Progressives you rely on to do the dirty work won’t get a chance to eat you last-just like the NeverTrumpers who care more about their offended sense of propriety than they do fighting the Left, largely because they share many of the prejudices of the latter.

    • #27
  28. DonG (Biden is compromised) Coolidge
    DonG (Biden is compromised)
    @DonG

    Jon1979 (View Comment):
    People with that mindset see Robert E. Lee only as the appetizer to the main course of total demonization of American history. Which is why taking down statues — or allying with people zealous in their desire to take down statues — should be done only with great caution and with eyes wide open on who you’re partnering with in the effort.

    You have to decide what you want to fight for.  I claim we should fight for statues that support our founding lore and ideals.  If you want to fight over every rock put up by a sore-loosing Southerner, than that is unprincipled and a loosing position.  Defending those rocks is just a reaction to a force and not based on a defensible principle.   We need to be putting up more statues of the founding fathers!

    • #28
  29. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    Jules PA (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):
    Tearing down staues also removes a chunk of history – both good and bad – that can teach us lessons . . .

    I think that was the goal of the statue snatchers. Reset history.

    In a few short years, the statue, the history and the memories stirred will be gone from conversation.

    Right along with the books.

    This will be a shameful era of purging that will end up being more damaging than any sadness evoked by a statue.

    People without a sense of history, or who are taught to be categorically ashamed of their history, overwhelming adopt Leftist worldviews.

    • #29
  30. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    DonG (Biden is compromised) (View Comment):

    We need to be putting up more statues of the founding fathers!

    Instead, you’ll get statues to George Floyd, and those ‘slave-owning, white supremacist rapist’ Founding Fathers (of patriarchy) will have their statues torn down by the people and ideological current you empower.  But hey, at least you get to pointedly remind Southern conservatives of how little respect or regard you have for us-again, just like the NeverTrumpers toward ‘Trumpists’.

    • #30
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