You Can’t Handle the Truth, or Numbers

 

People are impressed by numbers, especially large numbers. Paraphrasing a quote attributed to Josef Stalin illustrates the large number quandary; One man’s death is a tragedy, millions of deaths are a merely a statistic.

Numbers can be manipulated for political purposes. When someone has driven to an empty school parking lot at 0230 hours and commits suicide by shooting themselves in the head there will be an advocacy group that will list that death as a school shooting. That death is a tragedy, but it should not be used to make the number of school shootings appear greater than they are.

The State of Washington Department of Health, and they are probably not the only DOH in the United States doing this, have been inaccurate in the reporting of deaths due to Covid-19.

The Washington State Department of Health (DOH) recently announced it will subtract hundreds of deaths from its count of COVID-19 fatalities as a result of methodological improvements.

However, while the changes are welcome, the Freedom Foundation’s analysis indicates they may still not be enough to correct continued deficiencies in DOH’s reporting of deaths due to COVID-19.

Combining several data sources obtained from DOH, the Freedom Foundation has compiled and analyzed the cause of death information from the death certificates of the nearly 2,000 fatalities DOH had attributed to COVID-19 as of early September.

Here are some examples from the Freedom Foundation report:

A- 64-year-old male who died of “acute combined fentanyl, heroin, methamphetamine, and methadone intoxication”;
A- 65-year-old male who died from “alcoholic liver disease”;
A- 69-year-old male suffering from Parkinson’s and vascular dementia who died from malnutrition/dehydration after refusing to eat;
A- 73-year-old female with underlying health conditions who died after declining treatment for an intestinal abscess;
A- 75-year-old-male who died following a “pacemaker infection”; and
A- 99-year-old female who died after losing her balance and falling while trying to retrieve an item from the top of her dresser.

Some individuals that were gunshot victims were listed as Covid deaths.

First, since the start of the pandemic, DOH has attributed to COVID-19 the death of any person who tested positive for COVID-19 before their death. In May, the Freedom Foundation reported how this method resulted in the inclusion of deaths clearly unrelated to COVID-19. After admitting that it was attributing even deaths caused by things like gunshot wounds to COVID-19, DOH announced it would take steps to clean up its reporting process and removed some of the most obviously inappropriate deaths from its COVID-19 tally.

You can click on the link I provided for an in depth look at the report.

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  1. Ekosj Member
    Ekosj
    @Ekosj

    TBA (View Comment):

    Unless someone wants to make a very convincing argument otherwise, pointing to some other casual factor for 245,000 extra deaths so far this year; I think we are forced to conclude that COVID has been pretty bad.

    COVID has been bad. But not as bad as sold; the people fudging the numbers need their redactses kicked, because we’re paying money for science and the product is being adulterated and used for people control. 

     

    Again … that’s why I’m looking at deaths from all causes.   I’m sidestepping that issue.   Deaths from all causes point to 245000+ Covid deaths to date with incomplete data for the last 4-5 weeks.    That’s pretty mush as advertised.

    • #31
  2. CarolJoy, Thread Hijacker Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Thread Hijacker
    @CarolJoy

    TBA (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    The CDC reports on “Excess Deaths” … that is deaths in excess of what their historical models predict. They are usually very accurate … within a percentage point or 2. This metric is based on deaths from all causes.
    The numbers for 2020 to date are incomplete. I think they get actual copies of death certificates from the counties. So the most recent 4 or 5 weeks are incomplete. Even so, they are currently reporting deaths in 2020 at 13% above what their historical model predicts.
    Currently reported deaths as of today are 2,800,974. That is 113% of expected. That means they expect about 2,478,000 deaths by this time in 2020. Even if they have underestimated by a percentage point or 2 or 3 that’s still at least 245,000 excess deaths reported so far in 2020 with 2 weeks still to go and 4 weeks data still incomplete.

    Unless someone wants to make a very convincing argument otherwise, pointing to some other casual factor for 245,000 extra deaths so far this year; I think we are forced to conclude that COVID has been pretty bad.

    COVID has been bad. But not as bad as sold; the people fudging the numbers need their redactses kicked, because we’re paying money for science and the product is being adulterated and used for people control.

     

    There is also the absolute criminality of the “venerable institutions” like the CDC and NIH and how the remedies used in other nations are not allowed here. Recently Rush Limbaugh took the nation’s experts to task over the way the AMA stated Hydroxychloroquine with zinc was pointless at the beginning of the infection. But now they’ re coming around and saying it works. A person has to wonder how many of those who died would have survived if given the remedy. (On Nov 6th, Japan’s fatality rate was 1/125th our fatality rate, as doctors in Japan gave their people proven remedies like the HCQ protocol and also favipiravir, a  cheap but effective asthma drug.).

    Would have been nice for the AMA to have figured this out before all these Americans died. Plus it is not only that people died while a remedy was available – it is that many of those died while being put on a vent, then ending up with staph infections and what not from the ventilator, and then dying. All during a time when we were sending our HCQ to Brazil because doctors here didn’t want to give Trump the satisfaction that he had nailed it.

    • #32
  3. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Yes, the lockdowns are indeed fatal.

    You folks need to come up with some actual data beyond figuratively waving your hands around. Show some actual data to account for 245,000 extra deaths due to lockdowns. And try to avoid some chemtrail / flat earth style circular argument about the fact that there’s no data proves it’s being hidden.

    All the data is corrupt. From differences in reporting from state to state, county to county, likely even hospital to hospital — not to mention country to country. Different means of determining deaths or lack of them depending on the individual government’s spin. Cause of death, case rates, case fatality rates, etc; are all confused together. And then the second generation effects to be calculated in, hospitalizations, ICU capacities deaths from missed procedures and being frightened away from medical facilities. And then more trust issues: false testing, and false interpretations of testing results, and deliberately attributing other deaths to covid.

    There is no actual data, and the CDC is the magician waving his hands around.

    There is no data. Ok. Right. You doing your Neo impersonation from the Matrix? “There is no spoon”

    No.  All the data is poorly collected, labelled and collated.  It is manufactured by various governments with their own purposes and PR profiles and spin.  And the data are collected by various means of dubious and varying quality.  And yet a single Oh, No. More Cases!!! narrative is the only thing that makes the news.  We KNOW that covid is being blamed for many non-covid deaths AND we don’t know how many this applies to — and government audits are difficult to come up with retroactive corrections — even if they wanted to.  And even hospitals have financial and PR and compliance reasons to label as many deaths as possible as covid.  Hospital utilization and bed availability are manipulated by the state, and I haven’t seen any reliable numbers of what truly covid patients are occupying hospitals and specifically ICU beds.

    And then the collation organizations have their own PR message to craft the data to.  Thus, CASES ARE INCREASING!!! 

    Pretty much everything is suspect in a system that wants one single narrative to prevail — and then we have disorganization on top of this.

    I’ve lost all or most all of trust in any numbers.  How do you quantify and then try to integrate disparate collection styles?  It can’t be done.

    • #33
  4. CarolJoy, Thread Hijacker Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Thread Hijacker
    @CarolJoy

    Nohaaj (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):
    Unless someone wants to make a very convincing argument otherwise, pointing to some other casual factor for 245,000 extra deaths so far this year; I think we are forced to conclude that COVID had been pretty bad.

    Ekosj, You have taken a single data point, and assume that 100% of it is attributable to the virus. The lockdown has numerous causal paths for increased deaths. Drug OD’s and suicides are dramatically higher. People who have avoided normal healthcare and procedures because of lockdowns and fear have contributed to early and preventable deaths. Stress related heart attacks contribute.

     

    You beat me to the punch, nohaaj. People in the restaurant/hospitality business have been unemployed so long, and many have given up and committed suicide.

    People who were sober – for years even – have resumed their old ways, as staring at the same 4 walls all day can bring one to return to booze or drugs.

    People are refusing to seek out any type of medical care unless absolutely necessary, as some people are afraid of picking up COVID in the emergency waiting room. Meanwhile others are afraid they will be tested for COVID and immediately put on a heavy duty regimen of drugs like Fentanyl and rocephin, and then put on a vent. Deaths have occurred in this population as well.

    I keep wondering how mild the “new wave” of COVID would have been had we not had the NIH/CDC issue the new guideline of Oct 9th, telling doctors to avoid treating their patients until they were sick enough to be in the hospital. Those of us who have followed doctors who use HCQ with excellent results know that waiting till someone is desperately ill with COVID to treat them is setting the patient up to become a fatality.

     

    • #34
  5. Ekosj Member
    Ekosj
    @Ekosj

    Flicker (View Comment):
    I’ve lost all or most all of trust in any numbers. 

    Then there is nothing left m but unsubstantiated belief.

    • #35
  6. Ekosj Member
    Ekosj
    @Ekosj

    CarolJoy, Thread Hijacker (View Comment):

    You beat me to the punch, nohaaj. People in the restaurant/hospitality business have been unemployed so long, and many have given up and committed suicide.

     

    There is no possible way suicides and overdoses account for 245,000+ extra fatalities.

       

    • #36
  7. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):
    I’ve lost all or most all of trust in any numbers.

    Then there is nothing left m but unsubstantiated belief.

    Not unsubstantiated, I don’t think.  Experience based.

    I know they have continually lied to us.  I know they have extended and extended the goal lines.  I know they have crippled, if not the whole economy, at least the middle class.  I know they are capricious to the point that by honest calculation they appear to relish shutting down everyone’s life while continuing on for themselves unaffected.  I know that hospitals were encouraged and financially incentivized to write covid as the cause of death, even when the cause was trauma.  I know that there have been hospitals that they claimed to be overcrowded, but workers said they weren’t or were full because of non-covid patients.  I know they have developed and run covid tests and misinterpreted the results; including antibody tests of people who have fully recovered-from covid, or running PCR tests 40 times to get false positive results, and used them as examples of covid illnesses that require further lockdowns.  I am sure that many of the covid patients filling our ICUs in the south-west US are not infected in the US but have brought their illnesses with them from Mexico, yet these are used to reinforce lockdowns.

    Are any of these claims deniable?  For me the answer is No.  Are there enough categories of claims to see overt deception by the government and government financed organizations?  For me the answer is Yes.  Will covid decimate the population if restrictions are lifted?  To me the answer is No.  Will my wearing a mask prevent me from getting covid?  Even the official answer is No.  Will wearing a mask save anyone from dying of covid?  I believe the answer is No.

    With all this, can you actually believe the numbers?

    • #37
  8. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Percival (View Comment):

    Doug Watt:

    Some individuals that were gunshot victims were listed as Covid deaths.

    First, since the start of the pandemic, DOH has attributed to COVID-19 the death of any person who tested positive for COVID-19 before their death. In May, the Freedom Foundation reported how this method resulted in the inclusion of deaths clearly unrelated to COVID-19. After admitting that it was attributing even deaths caused by things like gunshot wounds to COVID-19, DOH announced it would take steps to clean up its reporting process and removed some of the most obviously inappropriate deaths from its COVID-19 tally.

    So, if someone was rained on with a .38 but before they kicked off they tested positive for the Pooh flu, that went on the list?

    Yeah. Science.

    FAKE NEWS- this has been claimed & debunked so many times as to be laughable. Of course there are errors but claims that all COVID + deaths are listed as deaths due to COVID is the fevered ravings of tin foil hatted conspiracy nuts.

    • #38
  9. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    The CDC reports on “Excess Deaths” … that is deaths in excess of what their historical models predict. They are usually very accurate … within a percentage point or 2. This metric is based on deaths from all causes.
    The numbers for 2020 to date are incomplete. I think they get actual copies of death certificates from the counties. So the most recent 4 or 5 weeks are incomplete. Even so, they are currently reporting deaths in 2020 at 13% above what their historical model predicts.
    Currently reported deaths as of today are 2,800,974. That is 113% of expected. That means they expect about 2,478,000 deaths by this time in 2020. Even if they have underestimated by a percentage point or 2 or 3 that’s still at least 245,000 excess deaths reported so far in 2020 with 2 weeks still to go and 4 weeks data still incomplete.

    Unless someone wants to make a very convincing argument otherwise, pointing to some other casual factor for 245,000 extra deaths so far this year; I think we are forced to conclude that COVID has been pretty bad.

    Actually it is worse than you describe :

    1) excess death stats run up to 8 weeks behind (CDC stats)

    2) we are seeing a horrific surge in COVID deaths the last month of the year which will add greatly to the total.

    • #39
  10. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    CarolJoy, Thread Hijacker (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    The CDC reports on “Excess Deaths” … that is deaths in excess of what their historical models predict. They are usually very accurate … within a percentage point or 2. This metric is based on deaths from all causes.
    The numbers for 2020 to date are incomplete. I think they get actual copies of death certificates from the counties. So the most recent 4 or 5 weeks are incomplete. Even so, they are currently reporting deaths in 2020 at 13% above what their historical model predicts.
    Currently reported deaths as of today are 2,800,974. That is 113% of expected. That means they expect about 2,478,000 deaths by this time in 2020. Even if they have underestimated by a percentage point or 2 or 3 that’s still at least 245,000 excess deaths reported so far in 2020 with 2 weeks still to go and 4 weeks data still incomplete.

    Unless someone wants to make a very convincing argument otherwise, pointing to some other casual factor for 245,000 extra deaths so far this year; I think we are forced to conclude that COVID has been pretty bad.

    COVID has been bad. But not as bad as sold; the people fudging the numbers need their redactses kicked, because we’re paying money for science and the product is being adulterated and used for people control.

    There is also the absolute criminality of the “venerable institutions” like the CDC and NIH and how the remedies used in other nations are not allowed here. Recently Rush Limbaugh took the nation’s experts to task over the way the AMA stated Hydroxychloroquine with zinc was pointless at the beginning of the infection. But now they’ re coming around and saying it works. A person has to wonder how many of those who died would have survived if given the remedy. (On Nov 6th, Japan’s fatality rate was 1/125th our fatality rate, as doctors in Japan gave their people proven remedies like the HCQ protocol and also favipiravir, a cheap but effective asthma drug.).

    Would have been nice for the AMA to have figured this out before all these Americans died. Plus it is not only that people died while a remedy was available – it is that many of those died while being put on a vent, then ending up with staph infections and what not from the ventilator, and then dying. All during a time when we were sending our HCQ to Brazil because doctors here didn’t want to give Trump the satisfaction that he had nailed it.

    Absolutely bull…the AMA DID NOT change it’s HCQ recommendation. Go to their Twitter feed where they absolutely deny this false claim.
    Really Carol try not to push misinformation in every post- where do you get your medical information- from fortune cookies or do you consult phrenologists?

    https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/politifact/2020/12/17/fact-check-does-american-medical-association-now-support-hydroxychloroquine/3943008001/

    • #40
  11. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    CarolJoy, Thread Hijacker (View Comment):

    You beat me to the punch, nohaaj. People in the restaurant/hospitality business have been unemployed so long, and many have given up and committed suicide.

    There is no possible way suicides and overdoses account for 245,000+ extra fatalities.

    Not to mention 18,000 plus deaths this week- maybe they all slipped on bars of soap or fell  off the roof hanging Christmas lights or….

    • #41
  12. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    I provided a link to an in depth report that indicates the State of Washington has agreed that their reporting of Covid deaths was inaccurate in some cases, and yes gunshot wounds were included as Covid deaths. Some counties in Washington were more careful in their reporting, and some were not. The DOH in Washington has agreed that they need to revisit some cases that listed Covid as the cause of death.

    I can tell who read the report, and who did not read the report by their comments on this essay. I never asserted that thousands upon thousands of deaths were not Covid related, but there were some that were not Covid deaths.

    I did not attribute this misreporting to malice. There are some unfortunate side effects to the 24 hour news cycle, and one of them is that Americans have the attention span of a gnat, the other is a deplorable lack of curiosity about what they hear from pundits, and politicians, regardless of their network or political party.

    • #42
  13. KCVolunteer Lincoln
    KCVolunteer
    @KCVolunteer

    My first comment ever, and I hope it doesn’t come off as snark, but @Ekosj comment #5, (from Table 1-1. Live Births, Birth Rates, and Fertility Rates, by Race: United States, 1909-2003 (cdc.gov) ), and given US life expectancy of 78.6, births in 1940 plus 79 years almost exactly matches CDC’s expected number of deaths for 2019 and also the prior years comparing the births for the years 1932- 40.

    However, given the death rate for all cohorts increases as they approach life expectancy, and two years later, 1942, the number of live births had increased 430,000. The CDC’s averaging based on 2017-2019 fails to take into account the increase in expected deaths in 2020 due to the increase of the cohort reaching life expectancy.

    The CDC has not under estimated by 1 or 2 percent, they have missed by 10-15%. Given that, the additional deaths from delayed treatment, drug overdose, and suicide from lock downs account for almost all of the excess deaths. If the CDC continues to fail to take into consideration the increasing size of the cohorts reaching life expectancy, expect 15 more years of lock down. It’s called the Baby Boom for a reason.

     

    • #43
  14. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    KCVolunteer (View Comment):
    Ricochet

    I am pretty confident the CDC has heard of the baby boom….and taken it into account.

    • #44
  15. dukenaltum Inactive
    dukenaltum
    @dukenaltum

    An aging population tend to die at an increasing rate  in proportion to its percentage of the population which is demonstrated by the projections from the UN going forward to 2050. Top number is number of deaths per 1,000. Lower number is percentage change from the previous year. Note that 2014 was largest increase (The UN model for 2020 projects the number of deaths to be 2,939,035 not including Covid-19.  The CDC model claims that 2,800,000 is 13% higher than their previous estimate.  source document.

    So either we trust the CDC modeling algorithm or the UN’s.  There is consistent increase starting in 2009 so as usual Obama is responsible.

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/death-rate'>U.S. Death Rate 1950-2020

    • #45
  16. Barry Jones Thatcher
    Barry Jones
    @BarryJones

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Barry Jones (View Comment):
    The question is what is the reasonably correct range for actual “this person died of Covid and would not have died otherwise) deaths. Also, I don’t think the CDC get copies of all the death certificates in the country…if you dig into the figures it looks like past years flu deaths are listed as “approximately” or words to that affect – here are noticeable differences between causes of violent deaths reported by the CDC and the FBI for example…

    Well, it sure seems to me that people are trying to leverage questions about exact cause of death in particular cases into an argument that Covid is not that bad. Again, that’s why I’m looking at deaths from all causes. I’m trying to sidestep that problem.

    Also. The CDC does get the actual death certificates. From footnotes to that table…

    Data during this period are incomplete because of the lag in time between when the death occurred and when the death certificate is completed, submitted to NCHS and processed for reporting purposes. This delay can range from 1 week to 8 weeks or more, depending on the jurisdiction and cause of death.

    It appears that the CDC does NOT get the actual death certificate. In fact the CDC is only required to be notified of the deaths of certain “required notification” diseases (from the CDC: https://wwwn.cdc.gov/nndss/data-collection.html). So they are notified of deaths from Covid (and Malaria and other required notification deaths) but not ALL deaths from every cause. The total deaths in the graph is from a model. That is one reason why the CDC and the FBI have different numbers for violent deaths, or at least it is a possible reason.

    • #46
  17. KCVolunteer Lincoln
    KCVolunteer
    @KCVolunteer

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Nohaaj (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):
    Unless someone wants to make a very convincing argument otherwise, pointing to some other casual factor for 245,000 extra deaths so far this year; I think we are forced to conclude that COVID had been pretty bad.

    Ekosj, You have taken a single data point, and assume that 100% of it is attributable to the virus. The lockdown has numerous causal paths for increased deaths. Drug OD’s and suicides are dramatically higher. People who have avoided normal healthcare and procedures because of lockdowns and fear have contributed to early and preventable deaths. Stress related heart attacks contribute.

    245,000 of them? Sounds to me like you are whistling past the graveyard.

    It’s ridiculous if you look at this graph

    It’s plan as day that the deaths are due to Covid. There is no other reasonable explanation.

    Don’t know if I’ve copy this the way one should, but that’s not what @Kozak  ‘s graph above shows. The threshold for excess deaths in 2020 appears to be nearly identical 2017,2018, and 2019, no 13% increase.

    13% would be roughly 6,400 deaths per we, it would be obvious on the graph.

    • #47
  18. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    I provided a link to an in depth report that indicates the State of Washington has agreed that their reporting of Covid deaths was inaccurate in some cases, and yes gunshot wounds were included as Covid deaths. Some counties in Washington were more careful in their reporting, and some were not. The DOH in Washington has agreed that they need to revisit some cases that listed Covid as the cause of death.

    I can tell who read the report, and who did not read the report by their comments on this essay. I never asserted that thousands upon thousands of deaths were not Covid related, but there were some that were not Covid deaths.

    I did not attribute this misreporting to malice. There are some unfortunate side effects to the 24 hour news cycle, and one of them is that Americans have the attention span of a gnat, the other is a deplorable lack of curiosity about what they hear from pundits, and politicians, regardless of their network or political party.

    The thing is, there are two issues; whether problem ‘X’ is being measured, and how draconian a solution must be adopted to deal with problem ‘X’. 

    The Earth has been warming, there have been some ballots illegally cast and some not counted, and some deaths have been misrepresented as Covid (or caused by the policies adopted to prevent deaths). 

    These are measurement problems. 

    Addressing the problem by damaging the economy, revote/Senate election, punishing lockdowns, are the solutions and it is right and proper to argue over whether they are worth the cost in health, trust, or money. 

    It is possible to believe that we should all go back to living in caves (hermetically sealed) under a Biden autocracy and still object to the sloppy or purposely false measurements.  

    • #48
  19. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    MiMac (View Comment):

    CarolJoy, Thread Hijacker (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    COVID has been bad. But not as bad as sold; the people fudging the numbers need their redactses kicked, because we’re paying money for science and the product is being adulterated and used for people control.

    There is also the absolute criminality of the “venerable institutions” like the CDC and NIH and how the remedies used in other nations are not allowed here. Recently Rush Limbaugh took the nation’s experts to task over the way the AMA stated Hydroxychloroquine with zinc was pointless at the beginning of the infection. But now they’ re coming around and saying it works. A person has to wonder how many of those who died would have survived if given the remedy. (On Nov 6th, Japan’s fatality rate was 1/125th our fatality rate, as doctors in Japan gave their people proven remedies like the HCQ protocol and also favipiravir, a cheap but effective asthma drug.).

    Would have been nice for the AMA to have figured this out before all these Americans died. Plus it is not only that people died while a remedy was available – it is that many of those died while being put on a vent, then ending up with staph infections and what not from the ventilator, and then dying. All during a time when we were sending our HCQ to Brazil because doctors here didn’t want to give Trump the satisfaction that he had nailed it.

    Absolutely bull…the AMA DID NOT change it’s HCQ recommendation. Go to their Twitter feed where they absolutely deny this false claim.
    Really Carol try not to push misinformation in every post- where do you get your medical information- from fortune cookies or do you consult phrenologists?

    https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/politifact/2020/12/17/fact-check-does-american-medical-association-now-support-hydroxychloroquine/3943008001/

    I’ve read several articles making unclear statements about retraction or not.  And I’ve read numerous articles stating the opposite of what you have cited.  Which is it?

    • #49
  20. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    MiMac (View Comment):

    KCVolunteer (View Comment):
    Ricochet

    I am pretty confident the CDC has heard of the baby boom….and taken it into account.

    Link?

    • #50
  21. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Flicker (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    CarolJoy, Thread Hijacker (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    COVID has been bad. But not as bad as sold; the people fudging the numbers need their redactses kicked, because we’re paying money for science and the product is being adulterated and used for people control.

    There is also the absolute criminality of the “venerable institutions” like the CDC and NIH and how the remedies used in other nations are not allowed here. Recently Rush Limbaugh took the nation’s experts to task over the way the AMA stated Hydroxychloroquine with zinc was pointless at the beginning of the infection. But now they’ re coming around and saying it works. A person has to wonder how many of those who died would have survived if given the remedy. (On Nov 6th, Japan’s fatality rate was 1/125th our fatality rate, as doctors in Japan gave their people proven remedies like the HCQ protocol and also favipiravir, a cheap but effective asthma drug.).

    Would have been nice for the AMA to have figured this out before all these Americans died. Plus it is not only that people died while a remedy was available – it is that many of those died while being put on a vent, then ending up with staph infections and what not from the ventilator, and then dying. All during a time when we were sending our HCQ to Brazil because doctors here didn’t want to give Trump the satisfaction that he had nailed it.

    Absolutely bull…the AMA DID NOT change it’s HCQ recommendation. Go to their Twitter feed where they absolutely deny this false claim.
    Really Carol try not to push misinformation in every post- where do you get your medical information- from fortune cookies or do you consult phrenologists?

    https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/politifact/2020/12/17/fact-check-does-american-medical-association-now-support-hydroxychloroquine/3943008001/

    I’ve read several articles making unclear statements about retraction or not. And I’ve read numerous articles stating the opposite of what you have cited. Which is it?

    Go to the AMA Twitter feed-here is the posting of 12/16 in response to the claims they are changing their position on HCQ:

    In March, AMA urged caution about prescribing hydroxychloroquine off-label to treat #COVID19. Our position remains unchanged. Evidence-based #science & practice must guide these determinations. Thank you @Poynter for the #FactCheck to set record straight http://spr.ly/6019HuJkN

    the articles you are reading are fake news. I do not know about you but the AMA Twitter feed takes long to load up for me.

    PS- perhaps you should ask CarolJoy where she got her info that the AMA has changed its position.

    • #51
  22. Old Bathos Member
    Old Bathos
    @OldBathos

    Even if COD attributions for COVID are inflated (they are) that excess attribution cannot explain the great bulk of the excess deaths. The raw numbers don’t allow for that. 

    COVID attacked out of season. Deaths rose at a time they should have been declining which contributes to further excess against the predicted curve. But now that we are in flu season the excess is declining.  If it is true that COVID got to the “dry tinder” and that the average lifespan loss was months nor years, will we see below average excess deaths from January onward or will lockdown-deaths replace them? 

    • #52
  23. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Flicker (View Comment):

    Ekosj (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):
    I’ve lost all or most all of trust in any numbers.

    Then there is nothing left m but unsubstantiated belief.

    Not unsubstantiated, I don’t think. Experience based.

    I know they have continually lied to us. I know they have extended and extended the goal lines. I know they have crippled, if not the whole economy, at least the middle class. I know they are capricious to the point that by honest calculation they appear to relish shutting down everyone’s life while continuing on for themselves unaffected. I know that hospitals were encouraged and financially incentivized to write covid as the cause of death, even when the cause was trauma. I know that there have been hospitals that they claimed to be overcrowded, but workers said they weren’t or were full because of non-covid patients. I know they have developed and run covid tests and misinterpreted the results; including antibody tests of people who have fully recovered-from covid, or running PCR tests 40 times to get false positive results, and used them as examples of covid illnesses that require further lockdowns. I am sure that many of the covid patients filling our ICUs in the south-west US are not infected in the US but have brought their illnesses with them from Mexico, yet these are used to reinforce lockdowns.

    Are any of these claims deniable? For me the answer is No. Are there enough categories of claims to see overt deception by the government and government financed organizations? For me the answer is Yes. Will covid decimate the population if restrictions are lifted? To me the answer is No. Will my wearing a mask prevent me from getting covid? Even the official answer is No. Will wearing a mask save anyone from dying of covid? I believe the answer is No.

    With all this, can you actually believe the numbers?

    This.

    They lie. The elites lie.

    I will never believe them again. Trust lost can never be regained. 

     

    • #53
  24. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    My wife personally knows a couple who stood in line to get tested, meaning they filled out paperwork.  The got tired of waiting and left. They did not get tested

     

    Two weeks later, they got letters saying they were positive.  

    Did not get tested.

    Did not get tested,.

    Came back positive,

    Hospitals are reimbursed for positive deaths. They are paid to report deaths due to covid.  But here we have supposed conservatives thinking incentives don’t matter.

    No data can be trusted, it just can’t. 

    Like the FBI the CDC is not to be trusted.

    Not ever again.

    • #54
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