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I once had a post saying the Reformation was a good thing, worth celebrating, because it was what forced the Church to reform, and unfortunately that is what it took.
What I got for that was a lot of grief. Maybe you have struck a safe middle ground here. I hope so. I, for one, still resent being told my marriage was not valid because it was not performed by a Catholic Priest.
Thank you:
a) for noting Reformation Day
b) taking the time to write a comprehensive history of that era
c) putting Reformation Day in perspective
Well Done!
I remember, although it is not my intent to kowtow to either side. There are planks in every eye I see. I know what the Catholic Church says about that and I know what the Orthodox Church says about that and all the rest. I submit myself to His mercy and make no vain oaths. Any argument will be settled absolutely by and by, while the churches of this world contend with mixed results against the prince of this world. None of them is unscarred.
When the head of a church places a sacrifice to a demon that demands human sacrifice today on the most sacred altar of his tradition, there has been subversion and capitulation and desecration beyond all reckoning. The wonder of that event was the hundreds of priests across the world who, knowing what was occurring, were holding mass for the perseverance of the church and the resanctification of the desecrated cathedral. I pray for all the followers of Christ, and that His righteousness will prevail and His will be done. Including the followers of Christ who do not.
I would also say that, by their doctrine, whoever told you that was right. If the Catholic faith is important to you, I would speak to a priest about how to bring the situation into good Catholic order. If you took vows before God in another trinitarian Christian tradition and you feel no strong connection to the Catholic tradition, then their barbs, however well meaning, can only serve to isolate themselves from you.
There is a podcast and a book from Father Andrew Stephen Damick titled Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy that gives a broad summary comparing Orthodox Christianity with the gamut of major Christian traditions and even non-Christian traditions. It puts a lot of these issues into some kind of order.
Just my two cents, and doubtless now someone will take exception. Oh, and for the record and for what it’s worth, I consider you married.
If by comprehensive history you mean to say the barest thread of a summary, I thank you. Even that first decade of the Reformation is a massive topic that could consume a lifetime. Calvin, Zwingli, peasant revolts, Luther translates the Bible into a new language he cobbled together, rather like Chaucer melded Old French and colloquial, germanic Middle English into a hybrid that settled the character of Modern English, a language that came to be called New High German, the basis for German literature going forward. A big, big deal also, and probably a major chunk of that 20% of material published in German I mentioned.
Thank you for the kind words.
It is hard to overstate the effect that Luther’s translation had. Going forward, would you publish your work using yet another regional dialect, or that put forward in the #1 best-seller?
If you want some Reformation Day #hottakes, follow Heritage’s Ryan Anderson on Twitter. He dishes criticism of it from a Catholic perspective and pulls no punches.
Not necessarily, a whole lot of Catholics are poorly catechized and misunderstand our own doctrine, sadly.
A marriage is presumed valid even if it’s performed by a justice of the peace, or at a Vegas wedding chapel. Perhaps this person meant to say your marriage was not a sacramental marriage? But then my understanding is that Luther denied that marriage is a sacrament, so you might agree with that assessment anyhow.
Oh it separated me from Catholics for all time. Their actions, here at Ricochet, have forever made me wary and distrustful Catholocs. Laid Bair is their utter disdained for my vows of marriage. I came as a brother in Christ, professing the Apostle’s and Nicene Creeds and they give me this. No apologies ever.
A Man does not forget that sort of slap in the face. I will, until I die, know that I cannot count on Catholics to have my back. I’ll take young Earth Creationists, because while we disagree on Science, they are not telling me my marriage does not count in the eyes of God.
Ad I now understand. Catholics think Protestants are not real Christians. I had
They were quite clear someone cannot be a priest unless they are part of the Catholic church. Something about an unbroken line to Peter. The man who married us apparently had not right.
For what it’s worth, Deirdre McCluskey, the Liberal economist/economic historian (and Episcopalian), dates the onset of the Great Enrichment to the date Martin Luther posted his theses. The Great Enrichment she attributes to a change in rhetoric that most valued individual conscience. Perhaps we should all celebrate this event, and God’s grace manifest through it, however fraught the ensuing events.
I celebrate it.
Heck, I had a post arguing it was part of Western Civilization.
Got attacked.
No good deed goes unpunished…
Bryan, I ask this in a spirit of charity: have you bothered to talk to a Catholic priest to see if what members here on Ricochet and elsewhere said is even correct? As far as I know, if one member of a couple, married in a Protestant church, later joins the Roman Catholic Church, that person is not told he or she is “living in sin” or fornicating. The RC does not deny that person the Sacraments. Everything I’ve seen tells me that the RC Church itself holds that as a valid marriage. You could be holding your anger against a Church (and Catholics in general) for something it doesn’t even teach. And I am sure that’s not good for one’s soul.
Of course, I could be wrong, and I’m sure if I am I’ll hear about it.
That is correct.
But you’re not.
Not a Catholic (former Southern Baptist, current Orthodox), so I wanted to give myself some leeway.
Well, I will still celebrate in my heart, the reformation that both helped right the Catholic church and lead to a diversity of ways to know God such that the faith spread more across the world.
Go ahead and shame us.
I, at least, don’t mind. It’s an acknowledgment that as a Catholic I have a special connection to Catholics of the past, present, and future; not just in my parish but everywhere on Earth and from all eternity. To be a Catholic is to be part of an eternal Church that transcends time and space; it exists here on Earth, in Heaven and in Purgatory.
Sure, I am embarrassed by the misdeeds of Catholics past, as I would be of an uncle in jail. Or of family ancestors who may have been slave owners. But I would never think of disowning my family over such people or their bad behavior. You take the good with the bad in a family.
When Martin Luther separated himself from the Church, he separated himself from the bad bishops and corrupt practices. Yes.
But not just those. He also separated himself from the long tradition of holy saints – St. Francis, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Catherine, etc. And not just the bad bishops but the holy bishops and Popes like St. Gregory the Great. He abandoned the family – both good and bad.
St. Francis was a true reformer of the Church. He was just as disturbed by the corruption he saw in the Church as was Luther. But he saw that the true path of reform is to reform the Church that Christ gave us through holiness. Francis is for me, and all Catholics, more than just a historical figure or an inspiring example. He is a brother; a brother praying for me right now.
A few years ago I was handed a pamphlet by an Evangelical Protestant. Apparently he didn’t think I was saved. What sticks in my mind about that pamphlet was a drawing it had of the individual before the judgement seat of Christ. The scene had two people: Christ in the seat of judgment and the individual trembling before Him. I guess that is the Protestant vision.
I’ve never thought of the scene that way. I don’t expect to be alone before the judgement seat of Christ; I expect St. Francis, St. Philip Neri (another great reformer), St. Therese, and all the Saints to be there praying “Lord, have mercy on our brother.” As we say in the Mass, “Look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church.”
So yes, put the sins of Johan Tetzel to my account. For by accepting those sins as mine, it means the faith of Sts. Peter and Paul, Gregory, John of the Cross, and all the rest are also put to my account. I’ll take that trade.
Martin Luther – you’re on your own.
My won’t you be surprised when you see Luther at the table too !
It’s not for me to judge Luther – and I didn’t (read what I wrote more carefully).
The last line you wrote ” Martin Luther – your’re on your own”
It is easy to infer you do not think Luther a brother in Christ , or you think it in question.
If not, then clear me up ?
I’m not judging Luther’s eternal soul – that is up to Christ, not me.
It’s Luther who put the brotherhood in question, not me. The OP assures Catholics that he is not trying to shame us for people like Johann Tetzel. Well, is Johann a brother in Christ? Why, then, should Catholics be particularly embarrassed by him more than Protestants? Because to be a Protestant is precisely to separate oneself from the Church to avoid association with the likes of Johann Tetzel. That’s why Protestants aren’t embarrassed of Tetzel. Fair enough.
Well, the Protestant also disassociates himself with me at the same time, because Tetzel and I are in the same family. That’s how families work. You can’t pick and choose in the family and say I’ll be his brother, and his brother, but not his or hers. It’s all or nothing. So, no, I don’t think of Luther as a brother the way I do St. Francis, but only because that is the way he wanted it.
#metoo
Whoever said that is stupid. Marriage is a sacrament the couple administer to each other. The sacramental validity of your marriage depends on that. If the person represented to you anything other than that, they are ignorant.
Well, J. I was baptized confirmed and raised Catholic. I was a CINO. When I met Jesus I became Protestant.
I am not an anti Catholic but am not Catholic for doctrinal reasons. However, I consider Catholics brothers and sister’s in Christ. Christ is the unifying constant.
If you feel different. So be it. See you at the table.
Jesus already claimed them to himself.
My sins are too numerous to count and I am not so arrogant to be claiming someone else’s as my own too. Christ already took them to himself and that is all I need.
I would say, “that church”. Lowercase.
“But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me.” -John 15:21
Pray for them.
Even a Christian man?
Dr. Luther protected the communion of the saints throughout his career. And a statue of him has been erected at the Vatican. Leaving aside the technical question of error for a moment, he was never, ever alone. You presume to speak for the communion of the saints against a fellow sinner, I pray that that is not counted against you.
Dude, this is like going into a bar and loudly proclaiming you are buying the next round – when the drinks are already on the house.
Aggregating to yourself sins that have already been paid for (and not by you) as a way of claiming faith that had already been gifted to others (and not by or to you) – I am completely unable to understand anyone’s doctrine that has this at its core.
This is just foreign to me and my understanding of scripture and the doctrines of salvation.