Recommended by Ricochet Members Created with Sketch. Are Never Trumpers OK with the Destruction of Evidence by Mueller’s Team?

 

I just don’t get it. Never Trumpers have gone on and on and on about how Mueller was on to something, but just could not prove it. Mueller did not exonerate Trump, etc.

Well.

If Mueller was that and a bag of chips, and his crew were as pure a the driven snow, how on Earth can they justify the destruction of evidence? These people all managed to “accidentally” destroy evidence. Come on.

Maybe some of our legal experts in the community could weigh in on how the destruction of evidence is a crime.

I’d love to hear from the pro-Mueller crowd on this. Y’all have been so behind this man, and still think Trump colluded with Russia to fix the election, despite no strong evidence it happened. I dare you to explain how this sort of very strong evidence of malfeasance, this criminal activity by the team doing the investigation is OK and has no bearing at all on the investigation. Because my belief is that anyone investigator that destroys evidence is an investigator that is building a lie.

Change my mind.

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  1. Sisyphus Coolidge
    SisyphusJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    I guess we’ll need a pretext for a FISA warrant to pull the archived data that the NSA never captures and certainly never archives.

    • #1
    • September 13, 2020, at 7:51 AM PDT
    • 16 likes
  2. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. StephensJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Sisyphus (View Comment):

    I guess we’ll need a pretext for a FISA warrant to pull the archived data that the NSA never captures and certainly never archives.

    If only the Republicans would do it. Since FISA is all controlled by Democrats, I am sure that stuff that was never captured will also be wiped.

    • #2
    • September 13, 2020, at 7:54 AM PDT
    • 6 likes
  3. David Carroll Thatcher
    David CarrollJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    In my view, the first step is the firing of everyone of those 31 folks who are still with the federal government in any capacity.

    Obstruction of justice might be hard to prove. Over the last several days, I have heard and read any number of opinions about how difficult it is to wipe the phones without taking hours to do it. Ironically and in an entirely unrelated conversation on a different subject, my painter (we’re having some work done in our house) told my wife and me about leaving his 4 year old granddaughter alone in the car for a few minutes and how she managed to wipe his phone beyond recovery.

    For smart people in the DOJ, one may possibly be an accident (although unlikely), but 31? Highly, highly doubtful. But how does a prosecutor prove beyond a reasonable doubt that any individual acted intentionally, despite the obvious conclusion that almost all if not all were intentional? (Answer: put the pressure on to get at least one to turn to save his or her own hide by testifying against the others).

    I have not heard on the news how many, if any, remain on the payroll. Has anyone else heard?

    • #3
    • September 13, 2020, at 8:11 AM PDT
    • 18 likes
  4. Kozak Member
    KozakJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    David Carroll (View Comment):
    For smart people in the DOJ, one may possibly be an accident (although unlikely), but 31? Highly, highly doubtful. But how does a prosecutor prove beyond a reasonable doubt that any individual acted intentionally, despite the obvious conclusion that almost all if not all were intentional?

    This is a classic RICO case.

    • #4
    • September 13, 2020, at 8:13 AM PDT
    • 14 likes
  5. DonG (skeptic) Coolidge

    Why do NeverTrumpers support a candidate that promotes Marxism/socialism, the deadliest idea in human history?

    • #5
    • September 13, 2020, at 8:15 AM PDT
    • 15 likes
  6. Sisyphus Coolidge
    SisyphusJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    Why do NeverTrumpers support a candidate that promotes Marxism/socialism, the deadliest idea in human history?

    The endless growth of the massive CCP-owned market promised decades more of big bonuses and fast cars for American business. I think NeverTrump rhymes with SurrenderMonkey.

    • #6
    • September 13, 2020, at 8:34 AM PDT
    • 9 likes
  7. Guruforhire Member

    • #7
    • September 13, 2020, at 8:41 AM PDT
    • 8 likes
  8. philo Member

    Bryan G. Stephens: Change my mind. 

    Seeing as I am on record as calling Mueller “the Benedict Arnold of out time,” I don’t see that happening.

    Sadly, the story gets even worse (from the Powerline link above): 

    The DOJ and FBI hid these records for nearly two years…

    • #8
    • September 13, 2020, at 8:58 AM PDT
    • 10 likes
  9. David Carroll Thatcher
    David CarrollJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Kozak (View Comment):

    David Carroll (View Comment):
    For smart people in the DOJ, one may possibly be an accident (although unlikely), but 31? Highly, highly doubtful. But how does a prosecutor prove beyond a reasonable doubt that any individual acted intentionally, despite the obvious conclusion that almost all if not all were intentional?

    This is a classic RICO case.

    I had not though to RICO. From US Legal website:

    A RICO claim requires proof of four elements:

    1) The existence of an enterprise affecting interstate commerce;

    2) That Defendants were employed by or associated with the enterprise;

    3) That the Defendants participated, directly or indirectly, in the conduct or affairs of the enterprise; and

    4) That the Defendants participated through a pattern of racketeering activity that must include the allegation of at least two racketeering acts.

    I can see it if an “enterprise” can be an agency of the federal government or a project of a government agency. I think it could break new ground.

    I certainly can see the continued pursuit of the Russia probe after they knew it as B.S. as a “pattern of racketeering activity.” Again, can government conduct constitute a racketeering activity? Unless there is some strong case law or a definition (which I have not researched), it is certainly possible. It would have to get past the judges who are government employees who seem to protect the government at all costs.

    • #9
    • September 13, 2020, at 9:10 AM PDT
    • 4 likes
    • This comment has been edited.
  10. Brian Watt Member
    Brian WattJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    C’mon man, it was “Accidental Treason”.

    • #10
    • September 13, 2020, at 9:19 AM PDT
    • 16 likes
  11. Buckpasser Member
    BuckpasserJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    They’re ok with it because it doesn’t matter….Orange Man Bad.

    • #11
    • September 13, 2020, at 9:33 AM PDT
    • 11 likes
  12. Bob Thompson Member

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    Why do NeverTrumpers support a candidate that promotes Marxism/socialism, the deadliest idea in human history?

    I think the answer to this question is that some Deep Staters and the Marxist/socialists are two different factions that oppose Donald Trump and consequently are supporting the Biden/Harris ticket. Biden is really not that much of an attraction but is enough to carry the NeverTrumpers and the more traditional Democrats and Harris attracts some of the more Leftists Democrats but not the Bernie Bros as much. Many Trump supporting Republicans are Deep State as well but not willing to make that compromise and join the insane Democrat Party. This is a very difficult fight for what I like to call real constitution loving traditional Americans.

    • #12
    • September 13, 2020, at 9:40 AM PDT
    • 4 likes
  13. Franco Member
    FrancoJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Never has a group of people in politics so completely ruined their credibility in such a short time.

    They will be forever mocked and forever despised. 

    • #13
    • September 13, 2020, at 9:44 AM PDT
    • 15 likes
  14. Bob Thompson Member

    At least the vocal NeverTrumpers are visible opponents. Those who have remained to infiltrate the Trump Administration have done and continue to do great damage. These include Mattis and Coats, who have been recently subjects of greater exposure, Vindeman and high level commanders in the military, intelligence agencies and the DoJ and FBI who actively undermine a legitimately elected POTUS>

    • #14
    • September 13, 2020, at 9:58 AM PDT
    • 15 likes
  15. Ontheleftcoast Member

    I would think that the NSA has it all. Or maybe the FBI is permitted to block NSA access to selected devices?

    • #15
    • September 13, 2020, at 10:01 AM PDT
    • 5 likes
  16. Hang On Member
    Hang OnJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    Why do NeverTrumpers support a candidate that promotes Marxism/socialism, the deadliest idea in human history?

    Uhh. Because they are Marxists.

    • #16
    • September 13, 2020, at 11:06 AM PDT
    • 3 likes
  17. Bob Thompson Member

    Hang On (View Comment):

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    Why do NeverTrumpers support a candidate that promotes Marxism/socialism, the deadliest idea in human history?

    Uhh. Because they are Marxists.

    Maybe not, perhaps they are those who profit so well from the military/healthcare/industrial global complex that they don’t want it revealed in order that they may continue. Greed can be worse than ideology.

    • #17
    • September 13, 2020, at 11:19 AM PDT
    • 6 likes
  18. CarolJoy, Thread Hijacker Coolidge

    The Never Trumpers have cared only that a man like Trump not stay in the WH, as he opposed the slush fund on over 100 billion bucks set up by the Paris Accords. He opposed the sweetheart business deals that gave Super Investors and China the upper hand as far as American imports and exports.

    Trump also opposes monolithic monopolies like that one run by Bezos and by Bill Gates, among others.

    • #18
    • September 13, 2020, at 12:17 PM PDT
    • 7 likes
  19. Clifford A. Brown Contributor

    David Carroll (View Comment):

    In my view, the first step is the firing of everyone of those 31 folks who are still with the federal government in any capacity.

    Obstruction of justice might be hard to prove. Over the last several days, I have heard and read any number of opinions about how difficult it is to wipe the phones without taking hours to do it. Ironically and in an entirely unrelated conversation on a different subject, my painter (we’re having some work done in our house) told my wife and me about leaving his 4 year old granddaughter alone in the car for a few minutes and how she managed to wipe his phone beyond recovery.

    For smart people in the DOJ, one may possibly be an accident (although unlikely), but 31? Highly, highly doubtful. But how does a prosecutor prove beyond a reasonable doubt that any individual acted intentionally, despite the obvious conclusion that almost all if not all were intentional? (Answer: put the pressure on to get at least one to turn to save his or her own hide by testifying against the others).

    I have not heard on the news how many, if any, remain on the payroll. Has anyone else heard?

    Easy. The kid did not understand the clear written warning on the screen that the last attempt would wipe the phone. The adult lawyers read that warning and deliberately took the one action that would wipe the evidence from the government property phone assigned them.

    • #19
    • September 13, 2020, at 12:18 PM PDT
    • 5 likes
  20. David Carroll Thatcher
    David CarrollJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Information dribbles in. Some of the phones were wiped as part of the process of transferring the phone from one person to another. Those folks have a reasonable excuse. The ones there were “accidentally” wiped. Still not believable or excusable.

    • #20
    • September 13, 2020, at 12:20 PM PDT
    • 5 likes
  21. Gary Robbins Reagan

    Hang On (View Comment):

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    Why do NeverTrumpers support a candidate that promotes Marxism/socialism, the deadliest idea in human history?

    Uhh. Because they are Marxists.

    I am a Reagan Republican and support the Republican limited government/Anti-Communism model promoted by Reagan, Ike, Coolidge, Goldwater, McCain, Romney, W, H.W., and Dole. What is essential is to defeat the cancer of Trump and Trumpism and Trump Enablers so that the Party of Reagan can return.

    Am I a Marxist? There you go again.

    • #21
    • September 13, 2020, at 12:27 PM PDT
    • 2 likes
  22. DrewInWisconsin, Man of Consta… Coolidge

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    Why do NeverTrumpers support a candidate that promotes Marxism/socialism, the deadliest idea in human history?

    Because they’re not so much NeverTrumpers as they are AlwaysDeepStaters.

    • #22
    • September 13, 2020, at 12:28 PM PDT
    • 9 likes
  23. DrewInWisconsin, Man of Consta… Coolidge

    Franco (View Comment):

    Never has a group of people in politics so completely ruined their credibility in such a short time.

    They will be forever mocked and forever despised.

    But fêted by the media. So the Low Information Voters will never know just how traitorous they are.

    • #23
    • September 13, 2020, at 12:29 PM PDT
    • 4 likes
  24. Unsk Member

    Don G:”Why do NeverTrumpers support a candidate that promotes Marxism/socialism, the deadliest idea in human history?”

    Sisyphus” The endless growth of the massive CCP-owned market promised decades more of big bonuses and fast cars for American business. I think NeverTrump rhymes with SurrenderMonkey.”

    Yes and No. The NeverTrumpers are bought and paid for Corporatists who want to use any and all tools available, illegal or not, to enrich themselves and their multi-national patrons. There is in reality very little difference politically between the American Multi-national Corporatists and the CCP. Both believe in using government to enrich themselves and to control the populace. The Marxist/Communist label with it’s some sort of commitment to help the “little people” for the CCP is just a fig leaf for their desire for raw, unlimited power, a desire which the Deep State and the Multi-national Corporatists also share.

    Bryan: “How can the NeverTrumpers be OK with the destruction of evidence by Mueller’s team?”

    Because:

    A. Never Trumpers have absolutely no scupples or ethics.

    B. The destruction of evidence by Mueller team was just a means to pursue their common goal: the enslavememt of the American People and the thirst for unlimited power. 

    • #24
    • September 13, 2020, at 12:33 PM PDT
    • 5 likes
  25. Charlotte Member
    CharlotteJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Bryan G. Stephens: How can Never Trumpers be OK with the destruction of Evidence by Mueller’s team?

    This style of argumentation was simplistic and uncollegial when Fred Cole used it, and it is simplistic and uncollegial now.

    • #25
    • September 13, 2020, at 12:40 PM PDT
    • 6 likes
  26. Ontheleftcoast Member

    Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, “he that is not with me is against me”.

    George Orwell, written in August 1942.

    The Party of Reagan required a people who would vote for Reagan.

    In Reagan’s era there were still anti-Communist Democrats. (Many of them wound up voting for Reagan.) Today’s Dems not only dislike Trump, they support racist policies, support socialism and oppose free speech.

    In Reagan’s era, establishment Democrats opposed the mob. They didn’t embrace it and fold it into their fund raising.

    In Reagan’s era, the public school curriculum was less universally likely to indoctrinate students against the Constitution,

    In Reagan’s era, the administrative state had not been substantially taken over by the Left.

    In Reagan’s era, many of the jobs the globalist bipartisan deep state (see W and Romney, among others) was about to sell to China were still at home and the working class family, black and white, was stronger than it is today.

    In Reagan’s era, the catastrophic immigration policies Reagan was suckered into buying into had not yet borne their poisonous fruit.

    In Reagan’s era, it was the first and second generations of urban underclass that were on welfare, not the fourth, fifth and sixth.

    In Reagan’s era, the bipartisan debt explosion of the national debt had barely begun.

    All those things have to be fixed before that limited government dream can become a reality.

    Too bad Never Trumpers are on the wrong side of most of the above. Too bad those who claim Reagan’s mantle have supported policies that have destroyed what Reagan fought for.

    • #26
    • September 13, 2020, at 12:47 PM PDT
    • 14 likes
    • This comment has been edited.
  27. Stad Thatcher

    Bryan G. Stephens: How can Never Trumpers be OK with the destruction of Evidence by Mueller’s team?

    They will forgive the Mueller team for their indiscretion because they were “doing the right thing” . . .

    • #27
    • September 13, 2020, at 1:20 PM PDT
    • 4 likes
  28. CACrabtree Coolidge

    I have to admit that I am a bit puzzled by the self-identified “Reagan Republicans – Never Trumpers”. The Democrats have been very clear about their agenda; attempts at statehood for Puerto Rico and the District of Columbia, “packing” the Supreme Court to insure a forever-liberal majority and anything else they can think of to end the two party system.

    Then, all those “Reagan Republicans” will come to resemble Hitler in his bunker, moving all those non-existent divisions around and screaming at anyone who dares to contradict him.

    • #28
    • September 13, 2020, at 1:27 PM PDT
    • 6 likes
  29. Brian Watt Member
    Brian WattJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    There is nothing conservative, Republican, or Reaganesque in supporting Joe Biden or the Democrat 2020 agenda. Those who are claiming that there is are insulting the conservative legacy of Ronald Reagan and are helping to destroy it. They can wrap themselves in images of Ronald Reagan and pretend they are conservative and pretend that they share his ideals and vision of America but they are, in fact, useful idiots to radical Marxists who are steering the agenda of the senile and ethically-challenged, pro-abortionist, racist, child-fondler Democrat nominee who has a decades-long history of graft that has made his family rich.

    If you fit this description, then own it – but please stop the fraudulent little masquerade that you are somehow dedicated to Ronald Reagan and his legacy. It’s insulting to everyone’s intelligence.

    • #29
    • September 13, 2020, at 1:35 PM PDT
    • 28 likes
  30. CACrabtree Coolidge

    Brian Watt (View Comment):

    There is nothing conservative, Republican, or Reaganesque in supporting Joe Biden or the Democrat 2020 agenda. Those who are claiming that there is are insulting the conservative legacy of Ronald Reagan and are helping to destroy it. They can wrap themselves in images of Ronald Reagan and pretend they are conservative and pretend that they share his ideals and vision of America but they are, in fact, useful idiots to radical Marxists who are steering the agenda of the senile and ethically-challenged, pro-abortionist, racist, child-fondler Democrat nominee who has a decades-long history of graft that has made his family rich.

    If you fit this description, then own it – but please stop the fraudulent little masquerade that you are somehow dedicated to Ronald Reagan and his legacy. It’s insulting to everyone’s intelligence.

    Very well said. My compliments…

    • #30
    • September 13, 2020, at 1:38 PM PDT
    • 10 likes