Are Never Trumpers OK with the Destruction of Evidence by Mueller’s Team?

 

I just don’t get it. Never Trumpers have gone on and on and on about how Mueller was on to something, but just could not prove it. Mueller did not exonerate Trump, etc.

Well.

If Mueller was that and a bag of chips, and his crew were as pure a the driven snow, how on Earth can they justify the destruction of evidence? These people all managed to “accidentally” destroy evidence. Come on.

Maybe some of our legal experts in the community could weigh in on how the destruction of evidence is a crime.

I’d love to hear from the pro-Mueller crowd on this. Y’all have been so behind this man, and still think Trump colluded with Russia to fix the election, despite no strong evidence it happened. I dare you to explain how this sort of very strong evidence of malfeasance, this criminal activity by the team doing the investigation is OK and has no bearing at all on the investigation. Because my belief is that anyone investigator that destroys evidence is an investigator that is building a lie.

Change my mind.

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  1. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    I guess we’ll need a pretext for a FISA warrant to pull the archived data that the NSA never captures and certainly never archives.

    • #1
  2. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Sisyphus (View Comment):

    I guess we’ll need a pretext for a FISA warrant to pull the archived data that the NSA never captures and certainly never archives.

    If only the Republicans would do it. Since FISA is all controlled by Democrats, I am sure that stuff that was never captured will also be wiped.

    • #2
  3. David Carroll Thatcher
    David Carroll
    @DavidCarroll

    In my view, the first step is the firing of everyone of those 31 folks who are still with the federal government in any capacity.  

    Obstruction of justice might be hard to prove.  Over the last several days, I have heard and read any number of opinions about how difficult it is to wipe the phones without taking hours to do it.  Ironically and in an entirely unrelated conversation on a different subject, my painter (we’re having some work done in our house) told my wife and me about leaving his 4 year old granddaughter alone in the car for a few minutes and how she managed to wipe his phone beyond recovery.  

    For smart people in the DOJ, one may possibly be an accident (although unlikely), but 31?  Highly, highly doubtful.  But how does a prosecutor prove beyond a reasonable doubt that any individual acted intentionally, despite the obvious conclusion that almost all if not all were intentional?  (Answer: put the pressure on to get at least one to turn to save his or her own hide by testifying against the others).

    I have not heard on the news how many, if any, remain on the payroll.  Has anyone else heard?

    • #3
  4. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    David Carroll (View Comment):
    For smart people in the DOJ, one may possibly be an accident (although unlikely), but 31? Highly, highly doubtful. But how does a prosecutor prove beyond a reasonable doubt that any individual acted intentionally, despite the obvious conclusion that almost all if not all were intentional?

    This is a classic RICO case.  

    • #4
  5. DonG (skeptic) Coolidge
    DonG (skeptic)
    @DonG

    Why do NeverTrumpers support a candidate that promotes Marxism/socialism, the deadliest idea in human history?

    • #5
  6. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    Why do NeverTrumpers support a candidate that promotes Marxism/socialism, the deadliest idea in human history?

    The endless growth of the massive CCP-owned market promised decades more of big bonuses and fast cars for American business. I think NeverTrump rhymes with SurrenderMonkey.

    • #6
  7. Guruforhire Member
    Guruforhire
    @Guruforhire

    • #7
  8. philo Member
    philo
    @philo

    Bryan G. Stephens: Change my mind. 

    Seeing as I am on record as calling Mueller “the Benedict Arnold of out time,” I don’t see that happening.

    Sadly, the story gets even worse (from the Powerline link above): 

    The DOJ and FBI hid these records for nearly two years…

    • #8
  9. David Carroll Thatcher
    David Carroll
    @DavidCarroll

    Kozak (View Comment):

    David Carroll (View Comment):
    For smart people in the DOJ, one may possibly be an accident (although unlikely), but 31? Highly, highly doubtful. But how does a prosecutor prove beyond a reasonable doubt that any individual acted intentionally, despite the obvious conclusion that almost all if not all were intentional?

    This is a classic RICO case.

    I had not though to RICO.  From US Legal website:

    A RICO claim requires proof of four elements:

    1)     The existence of an enterprise affecting interstate commerce;

    2)     That Defendants were employed by or associated with the enterprise;

    3)     That the Defendants participated, directly or indirectly, in the conduct or affairs of the enterprise; and

    4)     That the Defendants participated through a pattern of racketeering activity that must include the allegation of at least two racketeering acts.

    I can see it if an “enterprise” can be an agency of the federal government or a project of a government agency.  I think it could break new ground.

    I certainly can see the continued pursuit of the Russia probe after they knew it as B.S. as a “pattern of racketeering activity.”  Again, can government conduct constitute a racketeering activity?  Unless there is some strong case law or a definition (which I have not researched), it is certainly possible. It would have to get past the judges who are government employees who seem to protect the government at all costs.

    • #9
  10. Brian Watt Member
    Brian Watt
    @BrianWatt

    C’mon man, it was “Accidental Treason”.

    • #10
  11. Buckpasser Member
    Buckpasser
    @Buckpasser

    They’re ok with it because it doesn’t matter….Orange Man Bad.

    • #11
  12. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    Why do NeverTrumpers support a candidate that promotes Marxism/socialism, the deadliest idea in human history?

    I think the answer to this question is that some Deep Staters and the Marxist/socialists are two different factions that oppose Donald Trump and consequently are supporting the Biden/Harris ticket. Biden is really not that much of an attraction but is enough to carry the NeverTrumpers and the more traditional Democrats and Harris attracts some of the more Leftists Democrats but not the Bernie Bros as much. Many Trump supporting Republicans are Deep State as well but not willing to make that compromise and join the insane Democrat Party. This is a very difficult fight for what I like to call real  constitution loving traditional Americans.

    • #12
  13. Franco Member
    Franco
    @Franco

    Never has a group of people in politics so completely ruined their credibility in such a short time.

    They will be forever mocked and forever despised. 

    • #13
  14. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    At least the vocal NeverTrumpers are visible opponents. Those who have remained to infiltrate the Trump Administration have done and continue to do great damage. These include Mattis and Coats, who have been recently subjects of greater exposure, Vindeman and high level commanders in the military, intelligence agencies and the DoJ and FBI who actively undermine a legitimately elected POTUS>

    • #14
  15. Ontheleftcoast Member
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    I would think that the NSA has it all. Or maybe the FBI is permitted to block NSA access to selected devices?

    • #15
  16. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    Why do NeverTrumpers support a candidate that promotes Marxism/socialism, the deadliest idea in human history?

    Uhh. Because they are Marxists.

    • #16
  17. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Hang On (View Comment):

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    Why do NeverTrumpers support a candidate that promotes Marxism/socialism, the deadliest idea in human history?

    Uhh. Because they are Marxists.

    Maybe not, perhaps they are those who profit so well from the military/healthcare/industrial global complex that they don’t want it revealed in order that they may continue. Greed can be worse than ideology.

    • #17
  18. CarolJoy, Thread Hijacker Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Thread Hijacker
    @CarolJoy

    The Never Trumpers have cared  only that a man like Trump not stay in the WH, as he opposed the slush fund on over 100 billion bucks set up by the Paris Accords. He opposed the sweetheart business deals that gave Super Investors and China the upper hand as far as American   imports and exports.

    Trump also opposes monolithic monopolies like that one run by Bezos and by Bill Gates, among others.

    • #18
  19. Clifford A. Brown Contributor
    Clifford A. Brown
    @CliffordBrown

    David Carroll (View Comment):

    In my view, the first step is the firing of everyone of those 31 folks who are still with the federal government in any capacity.

    Obstruction of justice might be hard to prove. Over the last several days, I have heard and read any number of opinions about how difficult it is to wipe the phones without taking hours to do it. Ironically and in an entirely unrelated conversation on a different subject, my painter (we’re having some work done in our house) told my wife and me about leaving his 4 year old granddaughter alone in the car for a few minutes and how she managed to wipe his phone beyond recovery.

    For smart people in the DOJ, one may possibly be an accident (although unlikely), but 31? Highly, highly doubtful. But how does a prosecutor prove beyond a reasonable doubt that any individual acted intentionally, despite the obvious conclusion that almost all if not all were intentional? (Answer: put the pressure on to get at least one to turn to save his or her own hide by testifying against the others).

    I have not heard on the news how many, if any, remain on the payroll. Has anyone else heard?

    Easy. The kid did not understand the clear written warning on the screen that the last attempt would wipe the phone. The adult lawyers read that warning and deliberately took the one action that would wipe the evidence from the government property phone assigned them.

    • #19
  20. David Carroll Thatcher
    David Carroll
    @DavidCarroll

    Information dribbles in.  Some of the phones were wiped as part of the process of transferring the phone from one person to another.  Those folks have a reasonable excuse.  The ones there were “accidentally” wiped.  Still not believable or excusable.

    • #20
  21. Gary Robbins Reagan
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    Hang On (View Comment):

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    Why do NeverTrumpers support a candidate that promotes Marxism/socialism, the deadliest idea in human history?

    Uhh. Because they are Marxists.

    I am a Reagan Republican and support the Republican limited government/Anti-Communism model promoted by Reagan, Ike, Coolidge, Goldwater, McCain, Romney, W, H.W., and Dole.  What is essential is to defeat the cancer of Trump and Trumpism and Trump Enablers so that the Party of Reagan can return.

    Am I a Marxist?  There you go again.

    • #21
  22. DrewInWisconsin, Man of Constant Sorrow Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Man of Constant Sorrow
    @DrewInWisconsin

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    Why do NeverTrumpers support a candidate that promotes Marxism/socialism, the deadliest idea in human history?

    Because they’re not so much NeverTrumpers as they are AlwaysDeepStaters.

    • #22
  23. DrewInWisconsin, Man of Constant Sorrow Member
    DrewInWisconsin, Man of Constant Sorrow
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Franco (View Comment):

    Never has a group of people in politics so completely ruined their credibility in such a short time.

    They will be forever mocked and forever despised.

    But fêted by the media. So the Low Information Voters will never know just how traitorous they are.

    • #23
  24. Unsk Member
    Unsk
    @Unsk

    Don G:”Why do NeverTrumpers support a candidate that promotes Marxism/socialism, the deadliest idea in human history?”

    Sisyphus” The endless growth of the massive CCP-owned market promised decades more of big bonuses and fast cars for American business. I think NeverTrump rhymes with SurrenderMonkey.”

    Yes and No. The NeverTrumpers are bought and paid for Corporatists who want to use any and all tools available, illegal or not, to enrich themselves and their multi-national patrons. There is in reality very little difference  politically between the American Multi-national Corporatists and the CCP. Both believe in using government to enrich themselves and to control the populace. The Marxist/Communist label with it’s some sort of commitment to help the “little people” for the CCP is just a fig leaf for their desire for raw, unlimited  power, a desire which the Deep State and the Multi-national Corporatists also share.

    Bryan: “How can the NeverTrumpers be OK with the destruction of evidence by Mueller’s team?”

    Because:

    A. Never Trumpers have absolutely no scupples or ethics.

    B. The destruction of evidence by Mueller team was just a means to pursue their common goal: the enslavememt of the American People and the thirst for unlimited power. 

    • #24
  25. Charlotte Member
    Charlotte
    @Charlotte

    Bryan G. Stephens: How can Never Trumpers be OK with the destruction of Evidence by Mueller’s team?

    This style of argumentation was simplistic and uncollegial when Fred Cole used it, and it is simplistic and uncollegial now.

    • #25
  26. Ontheleftcoast Member
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, “he that is not with me is against me”.

    George Orwell, written in August 1942.

    The Party of Reagan required a people who would vote for Reagan.

    In Reagan’s era there were still anti-Communist Democrats. (Many of them wound up voting for Reagan.) Today’s Dems not only dislike Trump, they support racist policies, support socialism and oppose free speech.

    In Reagan’s era, establishment Democrats opposed the mob. They didn’t embrace it and fold it into their fund raising.

    In Reagan’s era, the public school curriculum was less universally likely to indoctrinate students against the Constitution,

    In Reagan’s era, the administrative state had not been substantially taken over by the Left.

    In Reagan’s era, many of the jobs the globalist bipartisan deep state (see W and Romney, among others) was about to sell to China were still at home and the working class family, black and white, was stronger than it is today.

    In Reagan’s era, the catastrophic immigration policies Reagan was suckered into buying into had not yet borne their poisonous fruit.

    In Reagan’s era, it was the first and second generations of urban underclass that were on welfare, not the fourth, fifth and sixth.

    In Reagan’s era, the bipartisan debt explosion of the national debt had barely begun.

    All those things have to be fixed before that limited government dream can become a reality.

    Too bad Never Trumpers are on the wrong side of most of the above. Too bad those who claim Reagan’s mantle have supported policies that have destroyed what Reagan fought for.

    • #26
  27. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Bryan G. Stephens: How can Never Trumpers be OK with the destruction of Evidence by Mueller’s team?

    They will forgive the Mueller team for their indiscretion because they were “doing the right thing” . . .

    • #27
  28. CACrabtree Coolidge
    CACrabtree
    @CACrabtree

    I have to admit that I am a bit puzzled by the self-identified “Reagan Republicans – Never Trumpers”.  The Democrats have been very clear about their agenda; attempts at statehood for Puerto Rico and the District of Columbia, “packing” the Supreme Court to insure a forever-liberal majority and anything else they can think of to end the two party system.

    Then, all those “Reagan Republicans” will come to resemble Hitler in his bunker, moving all those non-existent divisions around and screaming at anyone who dares to contradict him.

    • #28
  29. Brian Watt Member
    Brian Watt
    @BrianWatt

    There is nothing conservative, Republican, or Reaganesque in supporting Joe Biden or the Democrat 2020 agenda. Those who are claiming that there is are insulting the conservative legacy of Ronald Reagan and are helping to destroy it. They can wrap themselves in images of Ronald Reagan and pretend they are conservative and pretend that they share his ideals and vision of America but they are, in fact, useful idiots to radical Marxists who are steering the agenda of the senile and ethically-challenged, pro-abortionist, racist, child-fondler Democrat nominee who has a decades-long history of graft that has made his family rich.

    If you fit this description, then own it – but please stop the fraudulent little masquerade that you are somehow dedicated to Ronald Reagan and his legacy. It’s insulting to everyone’s intelligence.

    • #29
  30. CACrabtree Coolidge
    CACrabtree
    @CACrabtree

    Brian Watt (View Comment):

    There is nothing conservative, Republican, or Reaganesque in supporting Joe Biden or the Democrat 2020 agenda. Those who are claiming that there is are insulting the conservative legacy of Ronald Reagan and are helping to destroy it. They can wrap themselves in images of Ronald Reagan and pretend they are conservative and pretend that they share his ideals and vision of America but they are, in fact, useful idiots to radical Marxists who are steering the agenda of the senile and ethically-challenged, pro-abortionist, racist, child-fondler Democrat nominee who has a decades-long history of graft that has made his family rich.

    If you fit this description, then own it – but please stop the fraudulent little masquerade that you are somehow dedicated to Ronald Reagan and his legacy. It’s insulting to everyone’s intelligence.

    Very well said.  My compliments…

    • #30