Contributor Post Created with Sketch. Catholic News! Nancy Pelosi Apparently Is Not One.

 

From The Washington Post:

Catholic health-care providers in particular have long said they’d have to go out of business without the conscience protections that Pelosi says amount to letting hospitals “say to a woman, ‘I’m sorry you could die’ if you don’t get an abortion.” Those who dispute that characterization “may not like the language,’’ she said, “but the truth is what I said. I’m a devout Catholic and I honor my faith and love it . . . but they have this conscience thing’’ that she insists put women at physical risk, although Catholic providers strongly disagree.

This is worse than those people that fake military honors they’ve never received. Maybe Congress should pass a bill to prevent this kind of talk as well.  And can somebody please tell Nancy where she can find an Anglican Church to go to?

Cathedralx-wide-community.jpgIn cheerier news: We just bought ourselves an official Cathedral for Orange County  off Robert Schuller: You’re better off reading about it in USA Today because the L.A. Times gave it a hideous negative Spin “Congregants Devastated By Church Sale.” Talk about Debbie Downer.  What about the Catholics? Maybe they’re happy? O.C. has never had a proper Cathedral for it’s Bishop.

There are 42 comments.

  1. KC Mulville Inactive

    I agree with the previous comments, but indulge me to add three notes:

    • I could tolerate, maybe, Pelosi’s enormous stupidity about Catholicism if I had any reason to suspect that she had a moral theory behind it. But she has none. Nothing. It’s entirely political.
    • Pelosi claims to be a devout Catholic, which only means that she goes to church on Sundays … it doesn’t mean that she understands it (she clearly doesn’t) and being a political celebrity doesn’t give anyone theological credibility, and certainly not any authority.
    • Pelosi’s shallowness about Catholicism doesn’t prevent her from making self-assured pronouncements about it … but at least with Catholicism, she’s in no position to effect anything. Pelosi is equally shallow and equally self-assured about the Constitution … but sadly, there, she can inflict lots of damage. And does. She’s a walking disaster.
    • #1
    • November 23, 2011, at 5:20 AM PST
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  2. KC Mulville Inactive

    As for the Cathedral, I think it shows again that the calculations of religious “wealth” are terribly misleading. Having a crystal cathedral will go on the books as a huge asset, but such assets are almost never transferable. Occasionally you hear people wonder why, with all its wealth, some church doesn’t just sell its assets and give the money away to the poor; it’s because they can’t. The best they can hope for is to tear the building down before selling the property, but the cost of demolition wipes out any profit.

    If you want to build a new church these days, you almost have to make it modular, so that if finances go bad or the community changes, you can remove the “sacred” parts easily, and sell the remaining edifice to be used for something else.

    • #2
    • November 23, 2011, at 5:33 AM PST
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  3. Joseph Stanko Member

    Nancy Pelosi is entirely wrong (as usual), the Church values of the lives of both the mother and the child and insists that doctors do everything in their power to save both lives.

    But even if she were right, “Mother’s Health” was cited as the primary reason for 4% of abortions in the U.S. (and “Rape and Incest” for less than 0.5%). Can’t we at least all agree that conscience clause protections should apply to the 1,000,000+ abortions every year that are not due to rape, incest, or risks to the mother’s health?

    • #3
    • November 23, 2011, at 7:02 AM PST
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  4. Brian Clendinen Member

    I actually thought the Cathedral was a great purchase although I am not a catholic myself. A church which architecturally rivals, from a modern standpoint, anything in Europe. All though I agree the money spent on church building is absurd in churches, this is one case were est 5.5M+ Catholics living in LA area can be proud. They did not spend a lot for something they most likely needed.

    • #4
    • November 23, 2011, at 7:11 AM PST
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  5. James Gawron Thatcher

    Joe and Joe,

    I do know how you feel. I love it when the professional liberals show up at the orthodox synagogue. They haven’t been to any synagogue in thirty years except to peddle cheap political influence. The honest religious person is there to do what one is supposed to do worship Gd. If you dare express a conservative political point of view suddenly you are accused of hurting the careers of these poor agnostic weasals.

    Now to the issue. I am tired of pulling the punch. The Jewish point of view can be summed up quickly. Beyond the first forty days after conception, the only argument that allows abortion is a direct physical threat to the life of the women. The argument literally says the women has the right of ‘self defense’ in such a case. I do not intend to discuss my personal religious point of view which transcends these simple principles.

    Rather I simply say that I stand with Joseph Stanko. Since we agree on 99 plus % of the cases why is the current law the current law??!! Why do we give the ultimate political parasite Nancy Palosi a chance to drive a wedge between us.

    • #5
    • November 23, 2011, at 7:44 AM PST
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  6. Fredösphere Member
    Brian Clendinen: I actually thought the Cathedral was a great purchase although I am not a catholic myself. A church which architecturally rivals, from a modern standpoint, anything in Europe. All though I agree the money spent on church building is absurd in churches, this is one case were est 5.5M+ Catholics living in LA area can be proud. They did not spend a lot for something they most likely needed. · Nov 23 at 6:11am

    Hmm. I’ve never seen it in person, so I’ll withhold final judgment, but from the pictures it’s always seemed vulgar to me. Is that fair?

    • #6
    • November 23, 2011, at 8:23 AM PST
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  7. Mollie Hemingway Contributor
    Fredösphere
    Brian Clendinen: I actually thought the Cathedral was a great purchase although I am not a catholic myself. A church which architecturally rivals, from a modern standpoint, anything in Europe. All though I agree the money spent on church building is absurd in churches, this is one case were est 5.5M+ Catholics living in LA area can be proud. They did not spend a lot for something they most likely needed. · Nov 23 at 6:11am
    Hmm. I’ve never seen it in person, so I’ll withhold final judgment, but from the pictures it’s always seemed vulgar to me. Is that fair? · Nov 23 at 7:23am

    I thought it gaudy in person. And I haven’t seen it since I was 7 years old or so.

    • #7
    • November 23, 2011, at 8:26 AM PST
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  8. katievs Member
    James Gawron: Beyond the first forty days after conception, the only argument that allows abortion is a direct physical threat to the life of the women.

    I think I’ve asked you this before, James: Why forty days? What happens at forty days gestation that changes the moral status of the fetus from expendable to not-expendable?

    • #8
    • November 23, 2011, at 8:37 AM PST
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  9. Talleyrand Inactive

    Doesn’t LA already have a kinda new Our Lady of the Angels Catholic Cathedral? Or am I missing something here and there is a bishop of Orange County, or similar prelate, in need of this glass aircraft hanger. Also does the Archdiocese also get the adjacent Prayer Tower, (not sure what you would do with it, but like the design) .

    Leave the poor Anglican church alone, we have Archbishop Dr Rowan Williams which is enough of a hinderance to the faithful with his ecumenical non-judgemental embrace of fashionable theologies. Pelosi can join the Rajneeshees given her preference for bright orange and red coloured dress.

    My heart goes out to this mother who has just lost both her babies,

    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/medical-bungle-at-royal-womens-hospital-kills-healthy-fetus/story-fn7x8me2-1226204091220

    • #9
    • November 23, 2011, at 8:45 AM PST
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  10. Squishy Blue RINO Inactive

    Schuller went bankrupt when he abandoned the Reformation for positive thinking, John Calvin for Norman Vincent Peale. That the church eventually followed suit, while unfortunate, was really inevitable.

    There is a telling symbolism in the title history of that building.

    • #10
    • November 23, 2011, at 8:53 AM PST
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  11. Western Chauvinist Member
    Joe Escalante

    This is worse than those people that fake military honors they’ve never received. Maybe Congress should pass a bill to prevent this kind of talk as well. And can somebody please tell Nancy where she can find an Anglican Church to go to?

    Ouch. Why would you wish Nancy Pelosi on our Anglican brothers and sisters?

    What I wish is that the American bishops would find enough conviction of faith to excommunicate Nancy and the other public figures like her! She’s already publicly excommunicated herself on many occasions. Why not make it official?!

    • #11
    • November 23, 2011, at 8:57 AM PST
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  12. Canesplitter Inactive

    Ahem,

    I believe you refer to rep pelosi being more at home in an Episcopalian church, no longer singularly synonymous with Anglican in America.

    • #12
    • November 23, 2011, at 8:58 AM PST
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  13. Paul A. Rahe Contributor
    KC Mulville: I agree with the previous comments, but indulge me to add three notes: · Nov 23 at 4:20am
    • I could tolerate, maybe, Pelosi’s enormous stupidity about Catholicism if I had any reason to suspect that she had a moral theory behind it. But she has none. Nothing. It’s entirely political.
    • Pelosi claims to be a devout Catholic, which only means that she goes to church on Sundays … it doesn’t mean that she understands it (she clearly doesn’t) and being a political celebrity doesn’t give anyone theological credibility, and certainly not any authority.
    • Pelosi’s shallowness about Catholicism doesn’t prevent her from making self-assured pronouncements about it … but at least with Catholicism, she’s in no position to effect anything. Pelosi is equally shallow and equally self-assured about the Constitution … but sadly, there, she can inflict lots of damage. And does. She’s a walking disaster.

    Amen.

    • #13
    • November 23, 2011, at 9:04 AM PST
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  14. James Gawron Thatcher
    katievs
    James Gawron: Beyond the first forty days…

    I think I’ve asked you this before, James: Why forty days? What happens at forty days gestation that changes the moral status of the fetus from expendable to not-expendable? · Nov 22 at 7:37pm

    Katievs, I answered a question with a question (my Rabbi did that to me once). Does life begin when the first amino group pair of dna from the sperm & the egg bonded or when the last pair is in place? Or. Does my view of ensoulment depend upon how much I know about the Pauling Theory of the Carbon Bond?

    • #14
    • November 23, 2011, at 9:11 AM PST
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  15. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Contributor
    Western Chauvinist

    Joe Escalante

    This is worse than those people that fake military honors they’ve never received. Maybe Congress should pass a bill to prevent this kind of talk as well. And can somebody please tell Nancy where she can find an Anglican Church to go to?

    Ouch. Why would you wish Nancy Pelosi on our Anglican brothers and sisters?

    Yeah, we have enough problems like that already.

    • #15
    • November 23, 2011, at 9:35 AM PST
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  16. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member

    I hate to be the naysayer, the snopes-checker as it were, but I’m not sure it is accurate to say that St. Gianna Beretta Molla “knew she would die without an abortion. ” The facts of her story are a little different, but still inspriational.

    She, herself a physician, was diagnosed with a uterine tumor. Abortion was recommended so that the operation could proceed. She knew it was possible that she and the baby would not survive, but she placed it all in the hands of the Lord. She refused the abortion and had the operation. It appeared to be successful and she continued gestating until her daughter was born. At that time, her uterus tore. Without antibiotics available, sepsis set in and after several days of intense suffering she died.

    She was canonized for her devout holiness, testified to by those who knew her, as well as her own diaries, writings, letters, etc. She wrote humblingly beautiful letters to her husband during their engagement. She organized and led youth groups, often speaking about faith. The requisite investigation, complete with miracles, was done before her canonization. St. Gianna Molla, ora pro nobis!

    • #16
    • November 23, 2011, at 9:35 AM PST
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  17. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Contributor
    KC Mulville: If you want to build a new church these days, you almost have to make it modular, so that if finances go bad or the community changes, you can remove the “sacred” parts easily, and sell the remaining edifice to be used for something else.

    This is so sad. Even deconsecrated, a beautiful church remains a beautiful space, visually and acoustically, a thing to treasure.

    I have no problem with poorer congregations using whatever space is available, no matter how ugly, for worship — worship from the heart is more important than worship from the eye or ear. But to contemplate a wealthy Christian organization feeling pressure to build un-churchy churches is… disheartening.

    • #17
    • November 23, 2011, at 9:41 AM PST
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  18. Conservative Episcopalian Inactive
    Canesplitter: Ahem,

    I believe you refer to rep pelosi being more at home in an Episcopalian church, no longer singularly synonymous with Anglican in America. · Nov 22 at 7:58pm

    We don’t want that old hag either.

    • #18
    • November 23, 2011, at 10:09 AM PST
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  19. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member

    De-comissioned churches are like graveyards — an opportunity to pray in sorrow and thanksgiving for what has been given, the sacrifices that have been made, and the enormity of what is lost.

    However, some stories are more uplifting. This is a story about an empty Catholic church in Buffalo, NY, that was the answer to the prayers of a congregation in Georgia.

    • #19
    • November 23, 2011, at 10:12 AM PST
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  20. Joseph Stanko Member
    James Gawron

    Katievs, I answered a question with a question (my Rabbi did that to me once). Does life begin when the first amino group pair of dna from the sperm & the egg bonded or when the last pair is in place? Or. Does my view of ensoulment depend upon how much I know about the Pauling Theory of the Carbon Bond? · Nov 22 at 8:11pm

    I would say the last pair. If something goes wrong in the middle of the process you will have a non-viable i.e. dead organism.

    As for ensoulment, is that germane to the question? My view is simple:

    1. A fertilized egg is alive
    2. He or she belongs to the species Homo sapiens
    3. He or she is a unique individual person, genetically distinct from his or her mother

    These are simple, elementary biological facts. The burden then falls on the pro-choice side to propose a rule whereby some people deserve rights and others do not. I claim everyone deserves rights.

    • #20
    • November 23, 2011, at 10:17 AM PST
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  21. Lucy Pevensie Inactive
    Conservative Episcopalian
    Canesplitter: Ahem,

    I believe you refer to rep pelosi being more at home in an Episcopalian church, no longer singularly synonymous with Anglican in America. · Nov 22 at 7:58pm

    We don’t want that old hag either. · Nov 22 at 9:09pm

    I bet the Unitarians would take her.

    • #21
    • November 23, 2011, at 11:47 AM PST
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  22. Joe Escalante Contributor
    Joe Escalante Post author

    GiannaB.jpgTwo things:

    1. I mean no disrespect to the Anglicans or Episcopalians, but she could at least get out of the way of the Pope and still pretend to be religious.

    2. I know this is a hard one to swallow, but some would propose that if there is a rape, or danger to the health of the mother, harm has already occurred. Taking the life of a baby only makes it worse.

    What would a saint do in either of these cases? Fortunately we have an answer, and we are all called to become saints. It’s not reserved for the privileged. daughter_stGianna.jpg

    Saint Gianna Beretta Molla was canonized in 2004 in the presence of the daughter she chose to give birth to even though she knew she would die without an abortion.

    • #22
    • November 23, 2011, at 11:56 AM PST
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  23. kylez Member

    The fact that she is so liberal is enough evidence to me that she is not a “devout Catholic”, and i always find that kind of talk by politicians like her condescending and offensive.

    • #23
    • November 23, 2011, at 12:40 PM PST
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  24. KC Mulville Inactive
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake . But to contemplate a wealthy Christian organization feeling pressure to build un-churchy churches is… disheartening.

    I agree. There’s a whole body of literature on “sacred space” that, sadly, loses out to practicality or financial pressure. The sights, sounds, layout, texture, etc., all contribute to a spiritual experience. Yes, it is sad when finances get in the way.

    • #24
    • November 24, 2011, at 1:04 AM PST
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  25. James Gawron Thatcher
    Joseph Stanko
    James Gawron

    Katievs, I answered a question with a question… · Nov 22 at 8:11pm

    …These are simple, elementary biological facts. The burden then falls on the pro-choice side to propose a rule whereby some people deserve rights and others do not. I claim everyone deserves rights. · Nov 22 at 9:17pm

    Part 1

    Sorry it took me so long to get back to the discussion but I must sleep, work and eat.

    Joe, It is important to understand a distinction in Ethics between Right and Virtue. For Kant, Virtue is a moral end that is personal. Virtue does not justify the use of coercive force against others. Virtue is a Maxim followed for it’s own sake. Right is a Law derived from Moral Maxims enforced by a Constitutional Government which holds Freedom as it’s highest standard. As long as the United Will of All is expressed through legitimate Constitutional means a Right actually requires a society to coerce a coercer.

    I would say that there is a period very early in the pregnancy that I would consider covered by Virtue but not Right.

    • #25
    • November 24, 2011, at 7:23 AM PST
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  26. James Gawron Thatcher

    Part 2

    However, there exists a prime Duty of Virtue toward other Human Beings arising from the Respect due them by the Dignity of their Humanity. Disrespect in regards the Dignity of Humanity is Contempt. Katievs original comment about “expendability” speaks directly to Contempt. Gathering and using embryos for research is completely contemptuous of the Dignity of Humanity. If this were employed in a wide spread commercial way the resulting destruction of Virtue in society would be a threat to Freedom itself. The enforcement of a Law restricting this behaviour would be justified. The penalties justified would not be as severe as the direct breach of a Right.

    • #26
    • November 24, 2011, at 7:25 AM PST
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  27. James Gawron Thatcher

    Part 3

    If my agrument seems too complex, I suggest you realize how difficult it will be according the full Rights of a Human Being to a long chain of DNA. A sonogram can not show a double helix. In fact a double helix can not be seen directly because light rays are too large to pass through the nanometer sized opening between the atoms. X-Rays are used. Nothing can focus the X-rays. The defraction pattern must be interperted by a mathematical equation called a fourier transform. To pass the X-Rays through the molecules accurately the molecules must be crystallized perfectly. Joe this means that you must kill the molecules to see them. I think we can all see the paradox.

    • #27
    • November 24, 2011, at 7:26 AM PST
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  28. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member
    James Gawron: Part 3

    If my agrument seems too complex, I suggest you realize how difficult it will be according the full Rights of a Human Being to a long chain of DNA. . · Nov 23 at 6:26pm

    Edited on Nov 23 at 06:31 pm

    No, your argument doesn’t seem too complex, it seems too silly. Who needs to see all the perfectly crystallized molecules to know that a human being is there? Do you need to have a DNA test to decide if a hunter is hiding in a tree? No, if you think a hunter is there, don’t shoot. If you think a human being might exist, don’t try to kill him or her. I don’t see any paradox.

    • #28
    • November 24, 2011, at 7:43 AM PST
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  29. Joseph Stanko Member

    James, I’m not proposing “according the full Rights of a Human Being to a long chain of DNA,” I’m proposing according the full Rights of a Human Being to a human being. The DNA chain is just one piece of the complete organism. You seem to suggest that the fact that this DNA chain is difficult to detect using the instruments of modern science makes it a poor basis for granting unalienable rights. Instead you propose ensoulment. Tell me, can X-rays or sonograms detect the moment when ensoulment occurs? When agents of the secular state begin to deny your rights will you be able to prove to their satisfaction that you have a soul?

    • #29
    • November 25, 2011, at 3:23 AM PST
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  30. James Gawron Thatcher

    Part 1

    Ok Joe you caught me. I just wanted to see if you were listening. I do not propose that the United States Govenment use ensoulment as a test for awarding Rights. That is strictly a personal Religious concept. However, what I was getting at is the fact that the awarding of Rights early in the pregnancy is an arbitrary decision. As we find it difficult to ascribe full humanity to what amounts to a lot of DNA, we also find it very easy to ascribe full Human Rights to a baby 8 and 1/2 months in the womb who could be brought into the world through induced labor or C-section more safely to the mother then abortion. This baby would require no special pre-mature care and would be a perfectly normal human baby indistinguishable from a baby born from the women’s labor.

    • #30
    • November 25, 2011, at 5:13 AM PST
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