Contributor Post Created with Sketch. Recommended by Ricochet Members Created with Sketch. J. Edgar Hoover Would Be Proud

 

Politico published an intriguing piece of real journalism in late July. It turns out that Donald Trump was not the first elected target of J. Edgar Hoover’s boys and girls. They caught a Delaware businessman, Christopher Tigani, violating fundraising laws. FBI agents then ran Tigani as an informant against the 2008 Joe Biden primary campaign. The FBI continued after the 2008 election, trying to get the sitting Vice President. The FBI had this businessman wired at meetings with various campaign and fundraising players. They allegedly tried but repeatedly failed to get their stoolie in direct contact with Vice President Biden.

Yes, there has been especially focused illegal behavior by federal officials against President Trump. And. Yes, it appears the name on the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s headquarters has informed their organizational culture, despite a big show of reform in the 1970s. It appears very likely that the FBI ran Christopher Tigani against Joe Biden a decade before running agents against Donald Trump. One they targeted for old-fashioned campaign finance violations and one they targeted with an intelligence operation morphed into a criminal investigation.

So, what did President Obama know about each of these investigations, and when did he know it? Were his attorneys general in the loop? The FBI director during the anti-Biden operation was Robert Mueller, who then became the figurehead for the conspiracy wrapped in a coverup against President Trump. So, over the past decade and more, the FBI has targeted top presidential candidates in both parties, not stopping at the elections but pursuing the winning ticket into office. Perhaps this has been conveniently released now to provide cover against charges of partisan interference in our elections. Perhaps it was intended to make Biden out as a victim then rather than a perpetrator more recently against President Trump.

Exit question for Attorney General Barr: how many other presidents and vice presidents have the FBI investigated since 1974? How many top-tier candidates? Show us the files and reveal the decision-makers.

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  1. Arahant Member

    The Fat Boys’ Institute was pulling dirty tricks? Say it ain’t so!

    • #1
    • August 11, 2020, at 3:00 PM PDT
    • 5 likes
  2. Arahant Member

    Clifford A. Brown: Exit question for Attorney General Barr: how many other presidents and vice presidents have the FBI investigated since 1974? How many top tier candidates? Show us the files and reveal the decision makers.

    That would be interesting to see.

    • #2
    • August 11, 2020, at 3:01 PM PDT
    • 3 likes
  3. Mark Camp Member

    Under the “rule of law, not of persons”, the question of wrongdoing by the police and prosecutors is not one of which persons are investigated and prosecuted, it is why they were investigated and prosecuted. Trump and people associated with him were investigated and prosecutors solely because the police and prosecutors opposed them politically and wanted to deny them the ability to assume and execute their duly elected offices.

    That was wrongdoing because that is not a legitimate reason for police, national security, and prosecutorial action. Your implication is that this is two cases of politicians pursued by the justice system, therefore they are morally equivalent. Rule of person, not of law.

    I reject your implication.

    • #3
    • August 11, 2020, at 3:30 PM PDT
    • 5 likes
  4. Clifford A. Brown Contributor
    Clifford A. Brown

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Under the “rule of law, not of persons”, the question of wrongdoing by the police and prosecutors is not one of which persons are investigated and prosecuted, it is why they were investigated and prosecuted. Trump and people associated with him were investigated and prosecutors solely because the police and prosecutors opposed them politically and wanted to deny them the ability to assume and execute their duly elected offices.

    That was wrongdoing because that is not a legitimate reason for police, national security, and prosecutorial action. Your implication is that this is two cases of politicians pursued by the justice system, therefore they are morally equivalent. Rule of person, not of law.

    I reject your implication.

    I agree the two individuals were not in the same moral position. I claim the FBI and DOJ have explaining to do beyond Trump. The reason we appoint FBI directors to one non-renewable 10 year term is to take away the threat of another J. Edgar Hoover, with feared dossiers on every important politician. Holding information about investigations for a decade is a source of potential leverage.

    Which members of Congress were briefed? Was the president briefed, and was there a defensive briefing to Obama when he was considering Biden for VP? Or was this being held for possible use?

    • #4
    • August 11, 2020, at 4:16 PM PDT
    • 9 likes
    • This comment has been edited.
  5. Mark Camp Member

    Clifford A. Brown (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Under the “rule of law, not of persons”, the question of wrongdoing by the police and prosecutors is not one of which persons are investigated and prosecuted, it is why they were investigated and prosecuted. Trump and people associated with him were investigated and prosecutors solely because the police and prosecutors opposed them politically and wanted to deny them the ability to assume and execute their duly elected offices.

    That was wrongdoing because that is not a legitimate reason for police, national security, and prosecutorial action. Your implication is that this is two cases of politicians pursued by the justice system, therefore they are morally equivalent. Rule of person, not of law.

    I reject your implication.

    I agree the two individuals were not in the same moral position. I claim the FBI and DOJ have explaining to do beyond Trump. The reason we appoint FBI directors to one non-renewable 10 year term is to take away the threat of another J. Edgar Hoover, with feared dossiers on every important politician. Holding information about investigations for a decade is a source of potential leverage.

    Which members of Congress were briefed? Was the president briefed, and was there a defensive briefing to Obama when he was considering Biden for VP? Or was this being held for possible use?

    Clifford,

    The way this works, by long tradition, is that I –that is, me–am the one who responds to a counter-argument by giving it a Like and the writing a reasoned response.

    You are encroaching on my turf. Your role is to respond to criticism with an ad hominem or a straw man, or both.

    I am trying to figure out how to handle this awkward situation. I may just have to give it a Like and write a reasoned response. I might even have to agree with you. I just don’t know right now. I’ve never been put in this situation until the last few months, when all of a sudden people are springing this clever tactic on me every other day.

    • #5
    • August 11, 2020, at 4:45 PM PDT
    • 3 likes
  6. HankMorgan Coolidge

    Clifford A. Brown (View Comment):
    Holding information about investigations for a decade is a source of potential leverage.

    I’d say selectively leaking things to give a bassackwards impression of reality in order to destroy a political figure with a manufactured spurious investigation that turned up nothing is light years beyond investigating, giving up, and shutting up.

    • #6
    • August 11, 2020, at 4:50 PM PDT
    • 4 likes
  7. Rodin Member

    Why is this story coming out now? Why Politico? What is the agenda?

    • #7
    • August 11, 2020, at 6:45 PM PDT
    • 4 likes
  8. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. StephensJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    The FBI is clearly out of control and has been for a long time is this is true.

    • #8
    • August 12, 2020, at 3:06 AM PDT
    • 4 likes
  9. Saint Augustine Member

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    The FBI is clearly out of control and has been for a long time is this is true.

    Plus they never really let Mulder do his job. Jerks.

    • #9
    • August 12, 2020, at 3:12 AM PDT
    • 5 likes
  10. Jason Obermeyer Member

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    The FBI is clearly out of control and has been for a long time is this is true.

    Since its founding, apparently.

    • #10
    • August 12, 2020, at 5:03 AM PDT
    • 4 likes
  11. I Walton Member

    Jason Obermeyer (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    The FBI is clearly out of control and has been for a long time is this is true.

    Since its founding, apparently.

    It’s the nature of Federal agencies. They are extremely remote, have general guidance and money, so have to create purpose. Good directors create purposes that are good for them. It’s true of all Federal power but some of it has to exist in spite of their natures, i.e. foreign trade, border enforcement and national defense. The rest should be shut down. 

    • #11
    • August 12, 2020, at 5:14 AM PDT
    • 5 likes
  12. David Carroll Thatcher
    David CarrollJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Our republic was a great idea and still is, but the two most frightening things that can happen in a free society are corrupt law enforcement and corrupt politicians. Between the two, corrupt law enforcement is worse.

    We expect to have some corrupt politicians. They are inevitable. Thanks to competition, there are choices. Not so with law enforcement.

    • #12
    • August 12, 2020, at 5:27 AM PDT
    • 4 likes
    • This comment has been edited.
  13. David Carroll Thatcher
    David CarrollJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Cities have civilian review boards as a check and balance for police misconduct. What does the Federal government have to protect us from the corrupt FBI, ATF, DOJ and so many others?

    • #13
    • August 12, 2020, at 5:30 AM PDT
    • 4 likes
    • This comment has been edited.
  14. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White MaleJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    David Carroll (View Comment):

    Our republic was a great idea and still is, but the two most frightening things that can happen in a free society are corrupt law enforcement and corrupt politicians. Between the two, corrupt law enforcement is worse.

    We expect to have some corrupt politicians. They are inevitable. Thank to competition, there are choices. Not so with law enforcement.

    Corrupt and inept is even worse.

     

    • #14
    • August 12, 2020, at 5:50 AM PDT
    • 4 likes
  15. Rodin Member

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    The FBI is clearly out of control and has been for a long time is this is true.

    Plus they never really let Mulder do his job. Jerks.

    For a moment I thought you had misspelled Mueller. But I knew that wasn’t right. Just woke up, need more coffee.

    • #15
    • August 12, 2020, at 5:51 AM PDT
    • 4 likes
  16. Rodin Member

    David Carroll (View Comment):

    Our republic was a great idea and still is, but the two most frightening things that can happen in a free society are corrupt law enforcement and corrupt politicians. Between the two, corrupt law enforcement is worse.

    We expect to have some corrupt politicians. They are inevitable. Thank to competition, there are choices. Not so with law enforcement.

    Yes, see Mexico. I have thought for some time that if it was a choice between legalizing drugs and accepting widespread corruption in law enforcement and other elements of our society, I would choose legalizing drugs.

    • #16
    • August 12, 2020, at 5:53 AM PDT
    • 2 likes
  17. TBA Coolidge

    If Trump wins, he could do us a great service by exposing and firing everyone in the FBI who was involved in trying to spy on his and Biden’s campaigns. 

    • #17
    • August 12, 2020, at 6:50 AM PDT
    • 3 likes
  18. Mark Camp Member

    Rodin (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    The FBI is clearly out of control and has been for a long time is this is true.

    Plus they never really let Mulder do his job. Jerks.

    For a moment I thought you had misspelled Mueller. But I knew that wasn’t right. Just woke up, need more coffee.

    Not me. Yes, I made the same momentary hypothesis.

    But then I looked up and saw that the sentence was penned by The Saint. I then knew, without looking up Mulder, that he was someone important in the context of the discussion, not a misspelling.

    Now I have to admit that I didn’t look up Mulder yet. I figured someone’s gonna save me the work. Maybe even St. A. himself, once he realizes that he has over-estimated my/our educational level.

    Then I will have to delete this Comment, and write, “Gosh…I thought EVERYBODY remembered who Mulder was!”

     

    • #18
    • August 12, 2020, at 7:28 AM PDT
    • 3 likes
  19. Arahant Member

    • #19
    • August 12, 2020, at 7:38 AM PDT
    • 3 likes
  20. MichaelKennedy Coolidge

    Mark Felt set the standard for the post-Hoover FBI.

    http://abriefhistory.org/?p=638

     

    • #20
    • August 12, 2020, at 8:03 AM PDT
    • 4 likes
  21. Old Bathos Moderator

    This is a longstanding problem. In 1968, I recall my father (a former USDOJ attorney) putting down his newspaper and declaring that Eugene McCarthy is the cleanest man in American politics. This surprised me because McCarthy’s candidacy did not seem to jibe with Dad’s general political outlook so I asked how he suddenly knew that. He responded with something like this:

    “He is the first presidential candidate to openly declare that it is long past the time when J. Edgar Hoover should resign as head of the FBI and that he would immediately demand Hoover’s resignation if elected. It has been almost a month since he said that and absolutely nothing bad about him has appeared in the papers.”

    The FBI has long traded on fear.

     

    • #21
    • August 12, 2020, at 8:52 AM PDT
    • 6 likes
  22. ToryWarWriter Thatcher

    We know the FBI were following the Goldwater campaign and Nixons campaign on the orders of LBJ. It looks like Ike did the same to JFKs.

    • #22
    • August 12, 2020, at 9:17 AM PDT
    • 4 likes
  23. Sisyphus Coolidge
    SisyphusJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Rodin (View Comment):

    Why is this story coming out now? Why Politico? What is the agenda?

    The normalization of FBI investigations of high officials before Barr announces Russiagate indictments. Biden especially since he is implicated in the wrongful surveillance of Trump.

    • #23
    • August 12, 2020, at 11:18 AM PDT
    • 4 likes
  24. Jason Obermeyer Member

    ToryWarWriter (View Comment):

    We know the FBI were following the Goldwater campaign and Nixons campaign on the orders of LBJ. It looks like Ike did the same to JFKs.

    These are PUBLIC SERVANT! SERVANTS!

    • #24
    • August 12, 2020, at 12:31 PM PDT
    • 4 likes
  25. Rodin Member

    Jason Obermeyer (View Comment):

    ToryWarWriter (View Comment):

    We know the FBI were following the Goldwater campaign and Nixons campaign on the orders of LBJ. It looks like Ike did the same to JFKs.

    These are PUBLIC SERVANT! SERVANTS!

    If only. 

    • #25
    • August 12, 2020, at 12:37 PM PDT
    • 4 likes
  26. TBA Coolidge

    On the one hand I want the law to keep an eye on the doings of our presidents lest we get any more Chicago than we already are. On the other hand, planting moles is something considerably more sinister than ‘keeping an eye’. 

    Unless, the purpose of the moles is to look for other moles, I suppose. But then you’d properly coordinate that with the president. 

    • #26
    • August 12, 2020, at 1:48 PM PDT
    • 2 likes
  27. Jeffery Shepherd Member

    I don’t see this similar at all. In the Tigani case a real crime was committed by a bundler for Joe Biden. Tigani said he believed the Biden’s were aware of his activities. Carter Page is the guy they used to spy on Trump ( via his email, texts, phone and the two hop rule – meaning they likely illegally spied thousands of others besides Page) and their rationale was the Steele Dossier – a DNC fabrication.

    • #27
    • August 12, 2020, at 2:46 PM PDT
    • 4 likes
  28. Saint Augustine Member

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Then I will have to delete this Comment, and write, “Gosh…I thought EVERYBODY remembered who Mulder was!”

    Mulder is one of two main characters on the tv show The X-Files, alongside Agent Scully. He’s an FBI agent who investigates weird things. He has a wacky conspiracy about aliens. Turns out he’s right. He generally gets a lot of resistance from the FBI, although in the end both Scully and Assistant Director Skinner help him.

    • #28
    • August 12, 2020, at 4:14 PM PDT
    • 1 like
  29. Mark Camp Member

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    Then I will have to delete this Comment, and write, “Gosh…I thought EVERYBODY remembered who Mulder was!”

    Mulder is one of two main characters on the tv show The X-Files, alongside Agent Scully. He’s an FBI agent who investigates weird things. He has a wacky conspiracy about aliens. Turns out he’s right. He generally gets a lot of resistance from the FBI, although in the end both Scully and Assistant Director Skinner help him.

    SA,

    Everyone knows that.

    All kidding aside, I am glad it was just my lack of TV education, not the other kind.

    • #29
    • August 12, 2020, at 4:36 PM PDT
    • 4 likes
    • This comment has been edited.
  30. Arahant Member

    Mark Camp (View Comment):

    SA,

    Everyone knows that.

    All kidding aside, I am glad it was just my lack of TV education, not the other kind.

    TV? It’s real, Mark. The Truth is out there.

    • #30
    • August 12, 2020, at 5:00 PM PDT
    • 6 likes