We Need a Label

 

I generally don’t like political labels. I think they often do more to impair communication than to enhance it. However, the “woke” label is now widely used, and it would be nice to have a counter-label that means, basically, “I am not ‘woke’ and I reject the ideas and values ‘woke’ implies.” I described myself in a conversation today as a “traditionalist/Burkean conservative,” but that’s not a tagline that trips off the tongue, and it will never become popular.

James Delingpole or one of his guests mentioned “sound” as a term gaining currency, and as having approximately the meaning I seek. I’ve never heard it used and so I’m a little skeptical, but I nonetheless agree that some label for those of the deliberate and considered ‘not-woke’ crowd would be useful. I don’t much care for “sound,” but I’m open to suggestion. Whatever it is should be something vaguely positive, difficult to pun into a pejorative, ideally evocative of measured and solid — yes, “sound” — consideration, and unburdened with potentially troubling associations.

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  1. Misthiocracy got drunk and Member
    Misthiocracy got drunk and
    @Misthiocracy

    My only problem with “Sound” is that it was a favourite of the bureaucrats on Yes Minister.  “Sound government,” is what you end up with when you leave government to the “experts”.

    One might suggest “Free” or “Sovereign”.  To be Woke is to voluntarily waive one’s Freedom and/or Sovereignty.  However, these concepts can also lead to anarchy and/or tyranny when taken to their logical extremes.

    Another possibility might be “Golden”, as in Aristotle’s Golden Mean.  To be Woke is to thoroughly abandon the middle-ground which has been reached after millenia of political discourse.  To be Golden is to put virtue first and to rationally balance the lessons of tradition, reason, and empiricism when making political decisions.

    (Another virtue of “Golden” is that gold is neither black nor white.  It’s a fine symbol for “colour as virtue”.)

    • #31
  2. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…
    @ArizonaPatriot

    What’s wrong with Conservative?

    • #32
  3. DonG (skeptic) Coolidge
    DonG (skeptic)
    @DonG

    you can’t be anything with “not” or “anti” in the label.  A label should say what you are for, not what you are against.  And is anyone really against “wokeness”?  People who are “woke” are just aware and empathetic.   It is possible to be aware and empathetic without being part of cancel culture or a Marxist. 

    If you are Burke-ian, then like me you favor liberty and prosperity, which are two ideas that are inseparable.   Burke and Madison are part of the Enlightenment Period.  Perhaps a good label for folks like us is “enlightened“.  It is a bit highbrow, but I find it fitting.  I am big fan of Scottish Enlightenment in particular with Adam Smith and the idea that true happiness (as in life, liberty and the pursuit) is in fulfilling God’s purpose in serving fellow man.  The philosophy of Enlightenment defines America.

    • #33
  4. Richard Fulmer Inactive
    Richard Fulmer
    @RichardFulmer

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    What’s wrong with Conservative?

    It covers too much ground these days, anyone from Trump to George Will.  Granted, Trump doesn’t accept the label, but the label has been applied.

    • #34
  5. Richard Fulmer Inactive
    Richard Fulmer
    @RichardFulmer

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    you can’t be anything with “not” or “anti” in the label. A label should say what you are for, not what you are against. And is anyone really against “wokeness”? People who are “woke” are just aware and empathetic. It is possible to be aware and empathetic without being part of cancel culture or a Marxist.

    If you are Burke-ian, then like me you favor liberty and prosperity, which are two ideas that are inseparable. Burke and Madison are part of the Enlightenment Period. Perhaps a good label for folks like us is “enlightened“. It is a bit highbrow, but I find it fitting. I am big fan of Scottish Enlightenment in particular with Adam Smith and the idea that true happiness (as in life, liberty and the pursuit) is in fulfilling God’s purpose in serving fellow man. The philosophy of Enlightenment defines America.

    It’s good but ambiguous.  You and I are “Scottish-enlightened,” the woke are either “French-enlightened” or “German-enlightened.”

    • #35
  6. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    I’m going to put in another plug for @jimmcconnell‘s “reasoned” label. It has a positive connotation, and draws a clear distinction from the post-modern left that explicitly rejects reason. It’s time to bring reason back into fashion.

    You’re perhaps assuming we’re more reasoned than the other guys. I question that. We are about some things in some places, but I doubt that we are in general.   Reason vs unreason is not the battle.  

    • #36
  7. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Marjorie Reynolds (View Comment):
    I’m not very proud of Ireland at the moment but it’s home and there’s still a lot of good in it. I’ll have to do a top 10 things for conservatives to do in Ireland 😀

    One thing a conservative can do in Ireland is go for a long bicycle ride, or several of them. I can even prove it. 

    • #37
  8. Misthiocracy got drunk and Member
    Misthiocracy got drunk and
    @Misthiocracy

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    What’s wrong with Conservative?

    The fatal flaw of “Conservative” as a label is that different people want to conserve different things, and not everything is worth conserving.

    • #38
  9. Misthiocracy got drunk and Member
    Misthiocracy got drunk and
    @Misthiocracy

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):
    And is anyone really against “wokeness”? People who are “woke” are just aware and empathetic.

    The problem with “Wokeness” is that it’s dependent on conspiracy theory.  To be Woke is to see through the veil of propaganda.  If there is no conspiracy, then to be Woke is simply to be delusional.

    • #39
  10. Richard Fulmer Inactive
    Richard Fulmer
    @RichardFulmer

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    I’m going to put in another plug for @jimmcconnell‘s “reasoned” label. It has a positive connotation, and draws a clear distinction from the post-modern left that explicitly rejects reason. It’s time to bring reason back into fashion.

    You’re perhaps assuming we’re more reasoned than the other guys. I question that. We are about some things in some places, but I doubt that we are in general. Reason vs unreason is not the battle.

    Hmm.  I think I can provide a reasoned argument for all of my beliefs.  Did you have some issues in mind on which Burkeans aren’t reasoned? 

    • #40
  11. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    I re-read the OP and noticed that it doesn’t agree with the OP title. The title says we need a label. The OP says it would be nice to have one. Need and nice are two different things. I agree with the OP, not the title.

    • #41
  12. Misthiocracy got drunk and Member
    Misthiocracy got drunk and
    @Misthiocracy

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    I’m going to put in another plug for @jimmcconnell‘s “reasoned” label. It has a positive connotation, and draws a clear distinction from the post-modern left that explicitly rejects reason. It’s time to bring reason back into fashion.

    You’re perhaps assuming we’re more reasoned than the other guys. I question that. We are about some things in some places, but I doubt that we are in general. Reason vs unreason is not the battle.

    Also, reason can easily lead to tyranny.  The French Revolution was founded on the ideal of “reasoned government”.  At the end of the day, “reason” simply means “to reckon”.  i.e. When one must make a decision without sufficient evidence, does one err on the side of tradition or does one always reckon on a novel solution?  Traditionally, reason was thought of as contrary to empiricism.

    “Rational” is a better label than “reasoned”.  Literally, the word means “to make a ratio”.  i.e. To be rational is to weigh the available evidence before making a decision, and for that to happen one mustn’t hide or suppress any of the evidence.  Rationalism depends on honesty, while reason does not.

    However, “rationalism” can also lead to discrimination against people of faith (since faith does not require evidence), which is why I think Golden is my current favourite suggestion.  The fact that it was my suggestion is entirely beside the point.  ;-)

    • #42
  13. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    I’m going to put in another plug for @jimmcconnell‘s “reasoned” label. It has a positive connotation, and draws a clear distinction from the post-modern left that explicitly rejects reason. It’s time to bring reason back into fashion.

    You’re perhaps assuming we’re more reasoned than the other guys. I question that. We are about some things in some places, but I doubt that we are in general. Reason vs unreason is not the battle.

    Hmm. I think I can provide a reasoned argument for all of my beliefs. Did you have some issues in mind on which Burkeans aren’t reasoned?

    Well, how do you reconcile the conflicting goals of freedom and prosperity in those times and places where they come into conflict? Not through reason, I betcha, unless you first appeal to some underlying goals that you didn’t adopt via reason.

    • #43
  14. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Misthiocracy got drunk and (View Comment):
    Also, reason can easily lead to tyranny. The French Revolution was founded on the ideal of “reasoned government”.

    And the Soviet Union was founded on the ideal of scientific government, which is very closely related. 

    • #44
  15. E. Kent Golding Moderator
    E. Kent Golding
    @EKentGolding

    Classical Liberal.     We are for ordered liberty and freedom,  and the free exchange of ideas.

    • #45
  16. Richard Fulmer Inactive
    Richard Fulmer
    @RichardFulmer

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    I’m going to put in another plug for @jimmcconnell‘s “reasoned” label. It has a positive connotation, and draws a clear distinction from the post-modern left that explicitly rejects reason. It’s time to bring reason back into fashion.

    You’re perhaps assuming we’re more reasoned than the other guys. I question that. We are about some things in some places, but I doubt that we are in general. Reason vs unreason is not the battle.

    Hmm. I think I can provide a reasoned argument for all of my beliefs. Did you have some issues in mind on which Burkeans aren’t reasoned?

    Well, how do you reconcile the conflicting goals of freedom and prosperity in those times and places where they come into conflict? Not through reason, I betcha, unless you first appeal to some underlying goals that you didn’t adopt via reason.

    If you were president and had to make the decision, wouldn’t you go about it on a rational basis?  That is, bring in the experts, have them identify the risks, the costs, the pros and cons, etc.  

    • #46
  17. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    Classical Liberal. We are for ordered liberty and freedom, and the free exchange of ideas.

    I wonder if Classy Liberal would be better. Gotta give that some thought.

    • #47
  18. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    I’m going to put in another plug for @jimmcconnell‘s “reasoned” label. It has a positive connotation, and draws a clear distinction from the post-modern left that explicitly rejects reason. It’s time to bring reason back into fashion.

    You’re perhaps assuming we’re more reasoned than the other guys. I question that. We are about some things in some places, but I doubt that we are in general. Reason vs unreason is not the battle.

    Hmm. I think I can provide a reasoned argument for all of my beliefs. Did you have some issues in mind on which Burkeans aren’t reasoned?

    Well, how do you reconcile the conflicting goals of freedom and prosperity in those times and places where they come into conflict? Not through reason, I betcha, unless you first appeal to some underlying goals that you didn’t adopt via reason.

    If you were president and had to make the decision, wouldn’t you go about it on a rational basis? That is, bring in the experts, have them identify the risks, the costs, the pros and cons, etc.

    I would want to have some goals in mind before bringing the experts in.  I don’t generally get my aspirations from experts.  Experts are helpful in figuring out ways to achieve those aspirations, though.

    • #48
  19. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    you can’t be anything with “not” or “anti” in the label. A label should say what you are for, not what you are against. And is anyone really against “wokeness”? People who are “woke” are just aware and empathetic. It is possible to be aware and empathetic without being part of cancel culture or a Marxist.

    If you are Burke-ian, then like me you favor liberty and prosperity, which are two ideas that are inseparable. Burke and Madison are part of the Enlightenment Period. Perhaps a good label for folks like us is “enlightened“. It is a bit highbrow, but I find it fitting. I am big fan of Scottish Enlightenment in particular with Adam Smith and the idea that true happiness (as in life, liberty and the pursuit) is in fulfilling God’s purpose in serving fellow man. The philosophy of Enlightenment defines America.

    It’s good but ambiguous. You and I are “Scottish-enlightened,” the woke are either “French-enlightened” or “German-enlightened.”

    I think that the so-called Enlightenment is the problem, not the solution.  It is possible that the Scottish version is an exception.

    Locke was pretty good, and I think that the US founding was based principally on his exposition.  Locke, however, didn’t really develop a philosophy.  He was more of an apologist for the British government that emerged from the Glorious Revolution, and which developed by a strange confluence of historical forces (and divine guidance, if you believe in it).  Locke’s social contract theory was actually based in the Bible, specifically in the story of Jephthah from the book of Judges.  He had a realistic view of religious freedom — essentially that the various Protestant sects should be tolerant of one another.

    • #49
  20. Buckpasser Member
    Buckpasser
    @Buckpasser

    tigerlily (View Comment):

    Sane or normal work pretty good for me.

    Normal works for me too.  That pretty much eliminates anyone left of center.

    • #50
  21. Misthiocracy got drunk and Member
    Misthiocracy got drunk and
    @Misthiocracy

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Misthiocracy got drunk and (View Comment):
    Also, reason can easily lead to tyranny. The French Revolution was founded on the ideal of “reasoned government”.

    And the Soviet Union was founded on the ideal of scientific government, which is very closely related.

    Science depends on experimentation, and experimentation requires control groups.  Decentralized federations where the sub-national jurisdictions have extensive freedom to set their own policies have a much stronger claim to “scientific government” than the centralized USSR ever did.

    • #51
  22. Misthiocracy got drunk and Member
    Misthiocracy got drunk and
    @Misthiocracy

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    Classical Liberal. We are for ordered liberty and freedom, and the free exchange of ideas.

    The problem with Classical Liberal is that it conjures up images of the 19th Century, with its coal-fuelled pollution, Victorian prudery, Cholera outbreaks, Imperialist foreign policy, and Dickensian poverty.

    The fact that those things weren’t the result of Liberalism per se but rather because it was two freaking centuries ago and scientific/economic progress happens slowly doesn’t change the fact that the label suffers from those unfair associations.

    • #52
  23. Misthiocracy got drunk and Member
    Misthiocracy got drunk and
    @Misthiocracy

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    E. Kent Golding (View Comment):

    Classical Liberal. We are for ordered liberty and freedom, and the free exchange of ideas.

    I wonder if Classy Liberal would be better. Gotta give that some thought.

    I don’t hate “Classy”.  We don’t believe in the class system, but we do believe that good ideas can come from the upper classes from time to time.  We’re not Classist.  We’re Classy.

    We’re sorta kinda like the people who are happy that the Royal Family exists but still wouldn’t want be ruled by them.

    • #53
  24. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):

    I’m going to put in another plug for @jimmcconnell‘s “reasoned” label. It has a positive connotation, and draws a clear distinction from the post-modern left that explicitly rejects reason. It’s time to bring reason back into fashion.

    You’re perhaps assuming we’re more reasoned than the other guys. I question that. We are about some things in some places, but I doubt that we are in general. Reason vs unreason is not the battle.

    Hmm. I think I can provide a reasoned argument for all of my beliefs. Did you have some issues in mind on which Burkeans aren’t reasoned?

    I think that you’re incorrect.  I have never seen anyone provide a reasoned argument for any single belief, and I think that everyone should know that it is impossible to do so.  You must have premises, and your premises will not be supported by reason.  Even if the premises are granted, I doubt that you’d be able to construct a rational argument regarding any complex issue, which typically involve a balancing of different virtues.

    Why don’t you give it a try?  Pick something like abortion or capital punishment, and do a post in which you set forth your reasoned argument for your position.  I don’t even know your positions on these, but I don’t think that you’ll be able to come up with an argument based on pure reason.  But as Crowder says, prove me wrong.

    I haven’t studied Burke in detail.  It does seem to me that he rejected the idea of concocting a new social order on the basis of reason, in favor of holding to the traditions inherited from his English forefathers.  This is evident on pages 44-46 of his Reflections on the revolution in France (here), which includes the following (I have updated his spelling):

    • “The [Glorious] Revolution was made to preserve our ancient indisputable laws and liberties, and that ancient constitution of government which is out only security for law and liberty.”
    • “The very idea of the fabrication of a new government, is enough to fill us with disgust and horror.  We wished at the period of the Revolution, and do now wish, to derive all we possess as an inheritance from our forefathers.

     

    • #54
  25. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member
    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio…
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Misthiocracy got drunk and (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    What’s wrong with Conservative?

    The fatal flaw of “Conservative” as a label is that different people want to conserve different things, and not everything is worth conserving.

    I think that this is the fatal flaw with Hank’s idea that we need a label.  I don’t know who he means by “we.”  If we don’t agree, then there isn’t a label that will work.  We’ll need a dozen labels, and I won’t be able to keep track whether my little band is the Judean People’s Front or the People’s Front of Judea.  Or was it the Popular Front?

    • #55
  26. Misthiocracy got drunk and Member
    Misthiocracy got drunk and
    @Misthiocracy

    Richard Fulmer (View Comment):
    It’s good but ambiguous. You and I are “Scottish-enlightened,” the woke are either “French-enlightened” or “German-enlightened.”

    Nope. The Woke are the “Indigenous Enlightenment”.

    Like the German Enlightenment they believe that some ethnicities and/or cultures are superior to others.  Unlike the German Enlightenment they think that Europeans as the inferior ones.  Like the French Enlightenment they think European and/or Judeo-Christian Tradition is decadent and tyrannical.  Unlike the French Enlightenment they do not believe that a wholly new tradition based exclusively on scientific reckoning is the answer.  One could call them neo-Pagan, except that they reject European Paganism as well (they’re not big fans of the Soldiers Of Odin, for example).  Wokeness isn’t a wholesale rejection of tradition and/or science, but rather a rejection of European and/or Judeo-Christian tradition and/or science.  The Woke do believe in tradition (and is tolerant of science, if and when it serves their interests) but only if the tradition is Indigenous, which is defined as anything that doesn’t descend from European and/or Judeo-Christian culture (such as the American experiment in constitutional self-government, for example).  This is why they can confidently reject Lenin and Stalin without necessarily rejecting Marx, since they see the Soviet experiment as having been fatally tainted by its European roots.  Of course, their real guru is Mao.

    (The most extreme Woke go even further back than the European tradition, and argue that the trouble all started when the four riverine civilizations first organized hierarchical agricultural societies. By this definition, “indigenous” refers to any ethnicity or culture not descended from one of those four ancient civilizations.)

    • #56
  27. Misthiocracy got drunk and Member
    Misthiocracy got drunk and
    @Misthiocracy

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Misthiocracy got drunk and (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    What’s wrong with Conservative?

    The fatal flaw of “Conservative” as a label is that different people want to conserve different things, and not everything is worth conserving.

    I think that this is the fatal flaw with Hank’s idea that we need a label. I don’t know who he means by “we.” If we don’t agree, then there isn’t a label that will work. We’ll need a dozen labels, and I won’t be able to keep track whether my little band is the Judean People’s Front or the People’s Front of Judea. Or was it the Popular Front?

    Well, the improper and/or imprecise use of the word “we” is something that always makes my oatmeal hit the wall.  I’ve very often ranted at great length about how “we” is the most dangerous word in the English language.

    I therefore agree with you.  The subject line of the OP would have been better as “I want a label”.

    • #57
  28. Gossamer Cat Coolidge
    Gossamer Cat
    @GossamerCat

    I suggested “Free” over in another OP that picked up on this one. Simple and true.

    • #58
  29. Misthiocracy got drunk and Member
    Misthiocracy got drunk and
    @Misthiocracy

    Gossamer Cat (View Comment):

    I suggested “Free” over in another OP that picked up on this one. Simple and true.

    It’s too easy for extremists to appropriate “freedom” to excuse and/or glorify vice.

    • #59
  30. M. Brandon Godbey Member
    M. Brandon Godbey
    @Brandon

    Gossamer Cat (View Comment):

    I suggested “Free” over in another OP that picked up on this one. Simple and true.

    “We’ve tried being woke*, embracing a new set of ideas contrary to the American tradition. All it got us was division, violence, and destruction. It trained us to regard our neighbors with paranoia and suspicion. It gutted our communities and left us sifting through the ashes of our cities. It divided us along tribal lines and sought to erase the dignity of individual agency. It sought to uproot justice and peace through a closed fist. No, I am not woke. I am free, free to build communities that embrace all people. I am free to forgive, free to believe in the power of redemption. I am free to make up my own mind about the world I want to live in. I am free to live my life through my character, not the color of my skin. I am free.

    • #60
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