Why Masks? Because Powerless Citizens Rarely Emerge.

 

Why masks? I think the answer to that is fairly simple, and fairly obvious as well.

I have just finished — much to my dismay — reading the 20th and final (not including the unfinished 21st) book in Patrick O’Brian’s amazing Aubrey/Maturin “Master and Commander” series. In a recent book, Steven Maturin discusses an old sailor who he is treating. He knows exactly what the problem is, and he treats it as best he can. But he notes that the sailor is absolutely convinced that the problem stems from the consumption of meat and alcohol. Therefore, the sailor self-prescribes total abstinence from these two things. Maturin comments that sailors are stubborn, especially with respect to their own health, and that the abstinence does no great harm, so he goes on treating the sailor as he would, and he doesn’t argue with him about the diagnosis. Later in the book, the sailor dies, as Steven knew he would.

This is partly why everyone is wearing masks. People are stubborn when it comes to things that are unknown and over which we have no power. Irreligious people are especially stubborn in this respect, and we live in a particularly irreligious time and place.

At the beginning of this pandemic, our politicians acted. Of course, they acted. They couldn’t just stand there. They acted on the best information they had, which was terrible, and they acted in the only way they could, which was clumsy, overbroad, and devastating. The more we know, the more we are learning that it is quite possible that these actions, for all their costs, were certainly ill-advised (on balance), and even without their costs, may have been almost entirely ineffective for their stated purpose.

But a terrified public went along. They were told that death waits around every corner and that the only way to beat it is to hide in their homes. They hid in their homes, obsessively refreshing their Twitter and Facebook feeds, eyes glued to the television. And deaths piled up in spite of the fact that they were all obediently cowering in their homes.

There is no way out of that.

The truth would be to say that, well, we were wrong. That is a phrase that appears in no government handbook ever printed, and in no media guide ever consulted. We were wrong. As far as we can tell, the outcomes resulting from this virus were inevitable and unavoidable — we may have mitigated them somewhat (especially by keeping people out of hospitals), and, then again, we may also have simply traded one harm for another. We’ll never know the outcome of that impossible balance between “lives saved” as a result of our actions, and “lives lost” as a result of our actions.

But there is still no way out. My local hospital lied to the public when it said that we would be overrun with COVID-19 deaths by April 8, and would be turning people away to die in their homes or in the streets. This was a noble lie because a terrified citizenry is most likely to be complacent. It wasn’t just my hospital, it was nationwide. Instant death lurks around every corner. Anyone could have it and is likely contagious. Even you. You probably have it and you don’t even know that you have it. Not only is instant death lurking around every corner, but instant death emanates from your very being.

Turns out we were wrong. This is a virus, and it is worse than some other viruses that we are used to, and it is not as bad as some other pandemics that we have experienced. It is dangerous for some, and we really do now have a pretty decent grasp on who those people are. It is either widespread and not very deadly, or it is not very widespread and pretty deadly … or, it is becoming more and more widespread, and less and less deadly. But it cannot be all of these things. Death is not lurking around every corner, and it is extremely unlikely that you have it, and even less likely that you will give it to someone else. It is even less likely that you will get it when you pass by your neighbor on the street or in a store, or when you eat at a restaurant or play in a park or go to the beach or earn money at your job or barbeque with your friends or watch your kids play baseball. It is less dangerous for children than most dangers they face on a daily basis (even at home!) and there is virtually no evidence that it spreads from children to adults, or even from children to one another.

There is still much that we don’t know. But what we do know is that we were wrong. Our CDC guidelines were wrong and continue to be wrong. Our models were unbelievably wrong, and they are only getting worse. Our politicians were wrong. Our Twitter and Facebook feeds were wrong.

And that’s why we need masks. We are not willing to admit that we were wrong. We are not prepared to accept that we were powerless and that we continue to be powerless. We are not about to crawl out from under the house simply because somebody tells us that we were mistaken to crawl down there to begin with. We cannot just stand there, knowing how little we know – we must do something! We must exercise control, and if we don’t have control, we must exercise what little control we can muster, even if it is only control over our own behavior.

The rationale for that behavior is itself filled with contradictions. If the virus is so contagious that masks will help prevent its spread, then we are too late to start wearing masks, and if it truly is that contagious, then “running its course” is the best and only thing we should be doing. If it is not so contagious that masks will help prevent its spread, then we are wearing the masks just for fun. Same thing is true if asymptomatic aerosolized spread is not a meaningfully important mode of transmission, even if such a thing is scientifically possible in some circumstances.

Even the best case for masks seems to be a pretty silly one. There is a small percentage of people infected; there is a smaller percentage asymptomatic; there is a smaller percentage asymptomatic and contagious; and there is a possibility that the subgroup within that subgroup may possibly sneeze, which is about the only thing cloth masks are designed to mitigate, and even then, they mitigate only slightly, so that at the end of the day, what masks accomplish is the slight reduction of contagion that could possibly come from the small percentage of asymptomatic contagious within the small percentage of asymptomatic within the small percentage of infected. But to be absolutely safe, we need to make laws that cover everyone. No, it’s not just like using a chain-link fence to catch mosquitoes, it’s like using TNT to catch a minnow when the minnow really wasn’t your problem to begin with. But, we’re not really concerned with the minnow. We are concerned with human nature.

Masks are the placebo that allows us to feel like we are still in control of a situation where all of the evidence tells us that we have never been in control. If you are the CDC or a politician and saying “sorry, I was wrong” is simply out of the question, it is essential that you have a plan (for, as we know, all smart people have plans, so if you want to be smart, you must first have a plan). If there is one thing a patient most dreads — and which most patients simply will not accept — it is to walk away from the doctor empty-handed, without a plan. Virtually all doctors know and understand this. Doctors in the 18th century understood this very well, especially where sailors were concerned.

I have heard and read interviews with doctors … fear is debilitating. It is not all of these doctors who have stoked and built and endlessly perpetuated that fear. But they do understand that fear is debilitating, and they have not lost the wisdom of Steven Maturin.

Should I wear a mask?

Sure, why not. If it will make you feel better.

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  1. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    Hammer, The (View Comment):
    In order to live with emerging infectious diseases and seasonal influenza epidemics, every individual should have personalized reusable mask, gown, and gloves made of self-disinfecting fabrics, and even reusable anti-fog face shield within their own set of Epidemic Combat Kit for their personal protection.

    This is BS.  I’m not doing this.  If the virus kills me, I’ll be dead.  I’m headed that way anyway.  We’re supposed to wear hazmat suits the rest of our lives?

    • #61
  2. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Mendel (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):
    What do you say now about the purpose being to flatten the curve to save our medical system? Wasn’t that just one big lie?

    I don’t think it was a lie at the time. Based on the few experiences available, the notion that the virus might overwhelm our healthcare was justified.

    The real problem is that the lockdowns were extended endlessly even after it became apparent that the virus could be much more easily mitigated through social distancing than originally feared. Once the outbreak in NYC began to crest and we got a first sense of the dimensions of the virus in a US setting, there should have been an immediate public debate about re-evaluating the strategy based on this new information. Instead, a dangerous state of paralysis seems to have entered at precisely that moment.

    That’s what I meant when I said it was a lie. Some people go ahead and call it a lie when the perpetrator is of such character that they won’t think of what they said as a commitment, at least to the extent of stepping forward later to admit that they were wrong and now give the straight story. Millions of Americans have foregone medical needs until today and some still. That’s already ten weeks. We don’t know what that means in numbers but it is probable significant.

    • #62
  3. RushBabe49 Thatcher
    RushBabe49
    @RushBabe49

    My employer has made mask-wearing in the factory mandatory, whenever you are away from your individual desk that is six feet away from anyone else’s desk.  Since everyone around me has either been laid off or works from home, my desk is alone in a sea of (former) cubicles.  They are citing CDC guidelines as the reason.  Since it’s pretty certain that the CDC guidelines have no endpoint, I expect that this mandate will continue for the foreseeable future.  Our company has had exactly two employees contract the virus, and I believe both of them were laid off last month.

    Does anyone expect the CDC to decide, at some point in the future, that it is no longer necessary to wear a mask or not get within six feet of any other non-family member?  Will all Americans be OK with this mandate?  Since businesses who wish to stay open, and cannot do that with only 50% of their former customers, may simply close, what does this do to the American economy going forward?

    I do not intend to comply to the letter with the new mandate.  I do expect to spend a lot more time at my desk.  I already eat lunch at my desk, but if I bring leftovers that need to be heated, I have to walk across the entire building to get to the cafeteria.  I guess I will not bring leftovers, and just make something that doesn’t require heating up.  For some reason, retirement is looking better and better to me.  But I said I’d stay until the end of August, and I still plan to.

    • #63
  4. D.A. Venters Inactive
    D.A. Venters
    @DAVenters

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):
    That’s a part of the cost. It is not just a temporary inconvenience, it is a fundamental shift in the way that we live our lives. Is it worth the slightly increased sense of security?

    And as for this: let’s put it in perspective.

    Let’s say we have 95,000 deaths due to covid. That’s a pretty high number. In my state, over 60% of those deaths occurred in nursing homes, among people with other life-threatening conditions. In my town, that percentage goes above 90%. As much as we love our grandparents, and as much as we ought to both respect and protect our elderly (which we already don’t, as evidenced by the sheer population in nursing homes), the fact remains that, if you live in a nursing home, death actually does lurk around every corner. The average stay in a nursing home is what? 5 months? Maybe 6 months? Life expectancy is not high.

    We don’t write off those deaths, nor do we write off the deaths of morbidly obese diabetics – nor should we. But it does change our analysis of risk, and of security.

    As I said in an earlier comment, masks may very well work! They may work in reducing your risk from X% to X minus .0001%

    And if you live in a nursing home or you have so many problems that you are in that 90th percentile – your list of “risks” is about a mile long, and dying from covid is one of the many, and likely nowhere near the top of the list.

    Again, the question is not “does this maybe work?” but “are the benefits worth the costs?” – and for the vast majority of us, the benefits are so negligible as to be virtually nonexistent, and the costs are extreme.

    I’m not sure the nursing home data is helpful to your case. First, a lot of people do have temporary stays in nursing homes, usually to undergo physical or occupational therapy. 

    Beside that point, the fact that the disease was particularly widespread in places like nursing homes, prisons, aircraft carriers, etc…suggests (not saying proves, just suggests) that the distancing, voluntary or mandatory, probably did slow the spread considerably, and probably saved a lot of lives. So far at least.  Those places where distancing was especially difficult got hit the hardest. I don’t say this to argue for endless lockdowns, but I do think the cautious reopening is wise.

    • #64
  5. Hammer, The Inactive
    Hammer, The
    @RyanM

    D.A. Venters (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    Hey – let’s talk for a minute about relative reduction in risk. Because that’s what this is. Wearing a mask could possibly reduce our risk of dying from covid by some extremely small amount. That’s a maybe. But it isn’t protection. It is reduction of risk.

    Well – what about heart disease? Here are some interesting numbers:

    • Heart disease is the leading cause of death for men, women, and people of most racial and ethnic groups in the United States.1
    • One person dies every 37 seconds in the United States from cardiovascular disease.1
    • About 647,000 Americans die from heart disease each year

    Dang! That’s a pretty big number. But let’s roll with it. We’re willing to shut down the entire economy, cancel all group gatherings, close our schools (or impose prison-like conditions and psychological torture on our kids when they do open), and we’re also willing to cover our faces with masks … to allow the government to force everyone to cover their faces with masks. To fundamentally change what our society is, how it operates, and how we interact with one another (six feet apart). And we’re willing to do this for what? For a minuscule reduction of risk.

    We might top out at 150,000 deaths, and there is no way of knowing whether that number would have been any higher if this thing were allowed to burn out on its own. That is a fraction of the number of people we lose to heart disease.

    We can’t save those people – just like we can’t prevent all covid deaths – but we can surely reduce the risk, right?

    If everyone ate beets. If we limited the legal amount of salt intake, if we banned alcohol and smoking, if we required exercise. There are quite a lot of things we could do – no more of an imposition than wearing masks – that would reduce our risk of dying from heart disease by far more than masks reduce our risk of dying from covid.

    So why don’t we do these things? Is there more to the story than just reduction of risk? It sure doesn’t seem that there is.

    If heart disease was communicable, it’s a safe bet our society would look a lot different. You would probably have been wearing a mask since the day you were born.

    It doesn’t really matter that one is communicable and the other is not. Heart disease is just as preventable. And it isn’t self-limiting, like viruses are.

    • #65
  6. A-Squared Inactive
    A-Squared
    @ASquared

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):
    Does anyone expect the CDC to decide, at some point in the future, that it is no longer necessary to wear a mask or not get within six feet of any other non-family member?

    No

    • #66
  7. Hammer, The Inactive
    Hammer, The
    @RyanM

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    Rather, I am saying that masks are a social movement based primarily on mass hysteria rather than solid scientific evidence (that’s my whole point about most doctors saying “sure, if it makes you feel better.”) I am wary of edicts and laws that emerge from mass hysteria, and the evidence about masks (even the arguments you make) point to “an abundance of caution,” “hedging our bets,” or “this is the best we have.” The “evidence” that valiuth cited above is enlightening in that it lists the criteria required for masks to work, and it admits that their purpose is not disease eradication, but “saving lives” if adopted as a permanent change of lifestyle.

    If you supported the wearing of masks in limited circumstances and were told that the viewpoint is a matter of “mass hysteria,” would you be inclined to challenge that assertion? Would you request “solid scientific evidence” that masks are not at all beneficial in all circumstances?

    That is impossible to tell, because I do not favor masks, and I am staunchly opposed to mandates. But there may be other things I might wish to impose on others, and if so, I would bear the burden of proof.

    • #67
  8. Hammer, The Inactive
    Hammer, The
    @RyanM

    Mendel (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):
    and the costs are extreme.

    The costs of masks are extreme? I find this silly.

    Masks are a real pain in the you-know-what. I hate wearing one.

    But compared to measures that have put nearly one-third of the American workforce out of a job, masks are a miniscule drop in the bucket.

    I fully agree that the evidence showing the benefit of masks is still very shaky at best. But constantly railing against masks when their detrimental effects are less than one-millionth of many other measures still in place reveals a breathtaking lack of perspective.

    Bottom line: if you’re going to rant, please rant against one of the millions of restrictions still in place that is actually harmful.

    The cost is much bigger than the mask itself.  See all my other comments on the matter.

    • #68
  9. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Hammer, The (View Comment):
    It doesn’t really matter that one is communicable and the other is not. Heart disease is just as preventable. And it isn’t self-limiting, like viruses are.

    Wouldn’t Type II Diabetes be right up there?

    • #69
  10. Bob W Member
    Bob W
    @WBob

    If we were told a year ago that a pandemic was coming, and that political lines would be drawn over the issue of the strictness of government mandated or encouraged countermeasures, I don’t think any of us could have predicted which side of the issue conservatives and liberals would take. You can imagine either side making either argument, based on their ideological principles.  Just a few months ago, Fauci and the liberals who run NY city were downplaying the threat. Tucker Carlson was practically a voice in the wilderness ringing the alarm bell. Now he openly mocks those who express common sense concern over public swimming pools filled with hundreds of people. But that reversal need not have happened, and if it hadn’t, I doubt many who man the ideological barricades on this issue would have considered the possibility that there was an alternate universe where they were on the other side. Watching Tucker recently, I’m just amazed at the level of disingenuousness he radiates, on this and other issues. It’s a shame, because I really like the way he thinks on a lot of issues. I just refuse the temptation to make this issue an ideological one. Whether you should wear a mask is just the wrong hill to die on. 

    • #70
  11. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Mendel (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):
    and the costs are extreme.

    The costs of masks are extreme? I find this silly.

    Masks are a real pain in the you-know-what. I hate wearing one.

    But compared to measures that have put nearly one-third of the American workforce out of a job, masks are a miniscule drop in the bucket.

    I fully agree that the evidence showing the benefit of masks is still very shaky at best. But constantly railing against masks when their detrimental effects are less than one-millionth of many other measures still in place reveals a breathtaking lack of perspective.

    Bottom line: if you’re going to rant, please rant against one of the millions of restrictions still in place that is actually harmful.

    Open up spectator sports to spectators.

    • #71
  12. Hammer, The Inactive
    Hammer, The
    @RyanM

    One of my primary objections to masks is psychological. Kind of like my opposition to burkhas. 

    What would you say to a black man or a Muslim refugee who complained of masks as oppression? If it’s evenly applied, it’s not oppression? My psychological revulsion of masks is a visceral one, and it has little to do with physical comfort.

    • #72
  13. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):

    I am old and I refuse to wear a mask unless it is mandatory. My little bit of rebellion. When I visit my rheumatologist next week I will be required to wear one and I will do so, but not for one minute more than necessary.

    Reentering your teen years? Rebellion for the sake of rebellion is not thinking…

    • #73
  14. D.A. Venters Inactive
    D.A. Venters
    @DAVenters

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    D.A. Venters (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    Hey – let’s talk for a minute about relative reduction in risk. Because that’s what this is. Wearing a mask could possibly reduce our risk of dying from covid by some extremely small amount. That’s a maybe. But it isn’t protection. It is reduction of risk.

    Well – what about heart disease? Here are some interesting numbers:

    • Heart disease is the leading cause of death for men, women, and people of most racial and ethnic groups in the United States.1
    • One person dies every 37 seconds in the United States from cardiovascular disease.1
    • About 647,000 Americans die from heart disease each year

    Dang! That’s a pretty big number. But let’s roll with it. We’re willing to shut down the entire economy, cancel all group gatherings, close our schools (or impose prison-like conditions and psychological torture on our kids when they do open), and we’re also willing to cover our faces with masks … to allow the government to force everyone to cover their faces with masks. To fundamentally change what our society is, how it operates, and how we interact with one another (six feet apart). And we’re willing to do this for what? For a minuscule reduction of risk.

    We might top out at 150,000 deaths, and there is no way of knowing whether that number would have been any higher if this thing were allowed to burn out on its own. That is a fraction of the number of people we lose to heart disease.

     

    If heart disease was communicable, it’s a safe bet our society would look a lot different. You would probably have been wearing a mask since the day you were born.

    It doesn’t really matter that one is communicable and the other is not. Heart disease is just as preventable. And it isn’t self-limiting, like viruses are.

    Of course it matters.  The proof that it matters is the reaction you have seen worldwide. With a communicable disease, it is much more difficult to control your own risk and to control the risk you pose to others. This is especially true with a disease that can be spread by people who have no idea they have it. 

    • #74
  15. Hammer, The Inactive
    Hammer, The
    @RyanM

    D.A. Venters (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    I’m not sure the nursing home data is helpful to your case. First, a lot of people do have temporary stays in nursing homes, usually to undergo physical or occupational therapy.

    Beside that point, the fact that the disease was particularly widespread in places like nursing homes, prisons, aircraft carriers, etc…suggests (not saying proves, just suggests) that the distancing, voluntary or mandatory, probably did slow the spread considerably, and probably saved a lot of lives. So far at least. Those places where distancing was especially difficult got hit the hardest. I don’t say this to argue for endless lockdowns, but I do think the cautious reopening is wise.

    I don’t believe that temporary stays are in any way common. 

    Also- that’s certainly a theory.  But unless you believe that we should continue these measures indefinitely – and that they worked – you should replace “saved a lot of lives” with “delayed a lot of deaths.” Or worse,” caused a second wave. My hope is that these measures were ineffective, because the virus will run its course in spite of what we do.

    • #75
  16. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    I don’t wear a mask to the dentist. Am I a bad person?

    Maybe, but not because of that. :) I heard somewhere that it’s tough to clean someone’s teeth when they’re wearing a mask.

    Do you know if there is a mandate to wear masks in places of public accommodation in Virginia? I’m planning a trip but I won’t travel until this nonsense is over.

    As of this coming Friday, yes.

    Tell me again how this is not an issue of tyranny vs. liberty?

    We’ll agree to disagree on what constitutes tyranny. I don’t agree with mandates–particularly as universally applied throughout a state. But this isn’t the British marching on Concord.

    I have just demonstrated that masks do not work absent mandates, and mandates don’t work absent enforcement. And in order for any of it to work, we need the adoption of major, permanent lifestyle changes.

    Why did we fight the British to begin with? It was because we didn’t like being taxed… It was because we didn’t like being told where and how to worship. It was because we didn’t like being governed by an all-powerful central authority that asserted the power to determine our values for us, to determine our risks and to divvy out our rewards. For that, we fought in more than a handful of wars. I’d say this is actually pretty damned similar to the British marching on Concord.

    You demonstrated none of that- masks need not be used perfectly to be effective that is opinion masquerading as fact. No such study had been done. Additionally, wearing a mask isn’t a highly technical achievement-if it exceeds ones intellectual capacity you have much bigger concerns than pandemics. Some have worried that masks will give a false sense of security but that is OPINION, not fact. A poorly worn mask will not be worse than no mask UNLESS you feel empowered to do foolish things while wearing it. A mask won’t fix stupid.  Touching your mask isn’t riskier than touching your face when you aren’t wearing a mask(anyone claiming otherwise is a fraud- medical personnel are taught a sequence to taking off exposed PPE-“donning and doffing”-but it isn’t riskier to wrongly remove PPE than be exposed w/o it). Masks slow transmission of respiratory viruses, are cheap, and are safe-and you can’t say that about any other piece of equipment we have. Masks cause less economic harm than social distancing or banning large gathering and are most likely additive to those precautions.

    • #76
  17. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    D.A. Venters (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    Hey – let’s talk for a minute about relative reduction in risk. Because that’s what this is. Wearing a mask could possibly reduce our risk of dying from covid by some extremely small amount. That’s a maybe. But it isn’t protection. It is reduction of risk.

    Well – what about heart disease? Here are some interesting numbers:

    • Heart disease is the leading cause of death for men, women, and people of most racial and ethnic groups in the United States.1
    • One person dies every 37 seconds in the United States from cardiovascular disease.1
    • About 647,000 Americans die from heart disease each year

    Dang! That’s a pretty big number. But let’s roll with it. We’re willing to shut down the entire economy, cancel all group gatherings, close our schools (or impose prison-like conditions and psychological torture on our kids when they do open), and we’re also willing to cover our faces with masks … to allow the government to force everyone to cover their faces with masks. To fundamentally change what our society is, how it operates, and how we interact with one another (six feet apart). And we’re willing to do this for what? For a minuscule reduction of risk.

    We might top out at 150,000 deaths, and there is no way of knowing whether that number would have been any higher if this thing were allowed to burn out on its own. That is a fraction of the number of people we lose to heart disease.

    We can’t save those people – just like we can’t prevent all covid deaths – but we can surely reduce the risk, right?

    If everyone ate beets. If we limited the legal amount of salt intake, if we banned alcohol and smoking, if we required exercise. There are quite a lot of things we could do – no more of an imposition than wearing masks – that would reduce our risk of dying from heart disease by far more than masks reduce our risk of dying from covid.

    So why don’t we do these things? Is there more to the story than just reduction of risk? It sure doesn’t seem that there is.

    If heart disease was communicable, it’s a safe bet our society would look a lot different. You would probably have been wearing a mask since the day you were born.

    It doesn’t really matter that one is communicable and the other is not. Heart disease is just as preventable. And it isn’t self-limiting, like viruses are.

    Except you can’t pass heart disease to other people 

    • #77
  18. Annefy Member
    Annefy
    @Annefy

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    I don’t wear a mask to the dentist. Am I a bad person?

    Maybe, but not because of that. :) I heard somewhere that it’s tough to clean someone’s teeth when they’re wearing a mask.

    Do you know if there is a mandate to wear masks in places of public accommodation in Virginia? I’m planning a trip but I won’t travel until this nonsense is over.

    As of this coming Friday, yes.

    Tell me again how this is not an issue of tyranny vs. liberty?

    We’ll agree to disagree on what constitutes tyranny. I don’t agree with mandates–particularly as universally applied throughout a state. But this isn’t the British marching on Concord.

    I have just demonstrated that masks do not work absent mandates, and mandates don’t work absent enforcement. And in order for any of it to work, we need the adoption of major, permanent lifestyle changes.

    Why did we fight the British to begin with? It was because we didn’t like being taxed… It was because we didn’t like being told where and how to worship. It was because we didn’t like being governed by an all-powerful central authority that asserted the power to determine our values for us, to determine our risks and to divvy out our rewards. For that, we fought in more than a handful of wars. I’d say this is actually pretty damned similar to the British marching on Concord.

    You’re taking a relatively small sample size of “tyranny” over a brief period of time, expanding on it, and projecting it’s effects into the future. I suppose time will tell if you are correct, but for now, it’s duration and effects are speculative.

    BTW, I went grocery shopping last week–before the mandatory mask in public places edict. Out of, perhaps, one hundred and fifty shoppers, I saw one person unmasked. There was, needless to say, no “enforcement,” but, in terms of respect for others, the masks “worked.”

    -snip

    About two weeks ago, my little town went from “do you think we should wear masks?” to “masks recommended” to “mask shaming” in 72 hours. I am not exaggerating. I got called out on FB for not wearing one while taking my daily walk.

    I have been to the grocery store exactly once since and as God is my witness I will not be returning. Between the masks (not being able to read expressions), the extreme grumpiness of the checkers, the stupid lines marking off six feet, the One Way arrows on all the aisles and the ridiculous shuffling forward in line, it was an all together miserable experience.

     

    • #78
  19. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    duplicate post- my bad- see below

    • #79
  20. Annefy Member
    Annefy
    @Annefy

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    D.A. Venters (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    I’m not sure the nursing home data is helpful to your case. First, a lot of people do have temporary stays in nursing homes, usually to undergo physical or occupational therapy.

    Beside that point, the fact that the disease was particularly widespread in places like nursing homes, prisons, aircraft carriers, etc…suggests (not saying proves, just suggests) that the distancing, voluntary or mandatory, probably did slow the spread considerably, and probably saved a lot of lives. So far at least. Those places where distancing was especially difficult got hit the hardest. I don’t say this to argue for endless lockdowns, but I do think the cautious reopening is wise.

    I don’t believe that temporary stays are in any way common.

    Also- that’s certainly a theory. But unless you believe that we should continue these measures indefinitely – and that they worked – you should replace “saved a lot of lives” with “delayed a lot of deaths.” Or worse,” caused a second wave. My hope is that these measures were ineffective, because the virus will run its course in spite of what we do.

    My mother was in a nursing home and 20% of the rooms were reserved for temporary stays. It was next door to a hospital, so possibly more popular than normal for that use.

    Also, relating to another comment, I was told that the average long term stay was two years.

     

    • #80
  21. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Annefy (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    D.A. Venters (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    I’m not sure the nursing home data is helpful to your case. First, a lot of people do have temporary stays in nursing homes, usually to undergo physical or occupational therapy.

    Beside that point, the fact that the disease was particularly widespread in places like nursing homes, prisons, aircraft carriers, etc…suggests (not saying proves, just suggests) that the distancing, voluntary or mandatory, probably did slow the spread considerably, and probably saved a lot of lives. So far at least. Those places where distancing was especially difficult got hit the hardest. I don’t say this to argue for endless lockdowns, but I do think the cautious reopening is wise.

    I don’t believe that temporary stays are in any way common.

    Also- that’s certainly a theory. But unless you believe that we should continue these measures indefinitely – and that they worked – you should replace “saved a lot of lives” with “delayed a lot of deaths.” Or worse,” caused a second wave. My hope is that these measures were ineffective, because the virus will run its course in spite of what we do.

    My mother was in a nursing home and 20% of the rooms were reserved for temporary stays. It was next door to a hospital, so possibly more popular than normal for that use.

    Also, relating to another comment, I was told that the average long term stay was two years.

    You are absolutely correct- a significant percentage of nursing homes stays are short- that is one of the reasons for cancelling elective surgery during the lockdown. Intelligent physicians saw the gruesome event in Washington state where the virus got into the nursing home early in the epidemic and caused many deaths-and no one wanted their postoperative patients being sent for a short nursing home stay (or rehab unit-often the same places) and contracting COVID and dying. Unfortunately, Gov Cuomo didn’t get the memo.

    • #81
  22. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    A-Squared (View Comment):
    From what I understand, the evidence is that you need sustained indoor contact with someone to contract COVID and you are extremely unlikely to contract COVID from passing someone in a grocery store.

    This is a great statement for what the casual masks being worn by nearly everyone in public places is trying to accomplish–that is, reducing, not eliminating the viral load. Eliminating it is accomplished with the really sophisticated masks, gowns, gloves, and shields that hospital staff member wear. The best we can hope for out here in the grocery store is simply a reduced viral load.

    In other words, we are trying to avoid nursing-home-level contact by people wearing a casual mask whose purpose is as clear to me as asking people to cough into their sleeve or to simply cover their mouth with their hand when they cough or sneeze.

    It can help reduce the spread of all upper-respiratory diseases for people to cough into their sleeve.

    The cough with this particular virus is a very dry cough, and it sneaks up on people. They cough before they get a signal from their brain to tell them to quickly cover their mouth.

    I’d rather we didn’t do the mandate thing and just run a public awareness program, the way we do with coughing into the elbow.

    • #82
  23. Hammer, The Inactive
    Hammer, The
    @RyanM

    D.A. Venters (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    D.A. Venters (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    Hey – let’s talk for a minute about relative reduction in risk. Because that’s what this is. Wearing a mask could possibly reduce our risk of dying from covid by some extremely small amount. That’s a maybe. But it isn’t protection. It is reduction of risk.

    Well – what about heart disease? Here are some interesting numbers:

    • Heart disease is the leading cause of death for men, women, and people of most racial and ethnic groups in the United States.1
    • One person dies every 37 seconds in the United States from cardiovascular disease.1
    • About 647,000 Americans die from heart disease each year

    Dang! That’s a pretty big number. But let’s roll with it. We’re willing to shut down the entire economy, cancel all group gatherings, close our schools (or impose prison-like conditions and psychological torture on our kids when they do open), and we’re also willing to cover our faces with masks … to allow the government to force everyone to cover their faces with masks. To fundamentally change what our society is, how it operates, and how we interact with one another (six feet apart). And we’re willing to do this for what? For a minuscule reduction of risk.

    We might top out at 150,000 deaths, and there is no way of knowing whether that number would have been any higher if this thing were allowed to burn out on its own. That is a fraction of the number of people we lose to heart disease.

     

    If heart disease was communicable, it’s a safe bet our society would look a lot different. You would probably have been wearing a mask since the day you were born.

    It doesn’t really matter that one is communicable and the other is not. Heart disease is just as preventable. And it isn’t self-limiting, like viruses are.

    Of course it matters. The proof that it matters is the reaction you have seen worldwide. With a communicable disease, it is much more difficult to control your own risk and to control the risk you pose to others. This is especially true with a disease that can be spread by people who have no idea they have it.

    I suppose if this truly is the superbug that is not self-limiting like pretty much all other viruses, and if it will follow an exponential curve, killing more than 650,000 people each year in perpetuity, then it really does matter. But I thought we cared about life. Mandating dietary restrictions and exercise could save hundreds of thousands, and not just during the course of a pandemic, but every year! That is a huge number of human lives!

    • #83
  24. Hammer, The Inactive
    Hammer, The
    @RyanM

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    I don’t wear a mask to the dentist. Am I a bad person?

    Maybe, but not because of that. :) I heard somewhere that it’s tough to clean someone’s teeth when they’re wearing a mask.

    Do you know if there is a mandate to wear masks in places of public accommodation in Virginia? I’m planning a trip but I won’t travel until this nonsense is over.

    As of this coming Friday, yes.

    Tell me again how this is not an issue of tyranny vs. liberty?

    We’ll agree to disagree on what constitutes tyranny. I don’t agree with mandates–particularly as universally applied throughout a state. But this isn’t the British marching on Concord.

    I have just demonstrated that masks do not work absent mandates, and mandates don’t work absent enforcement. And in order for any of it to work, we need the adoption of major, permanent lifestyle changes.

    Why did we fight the British to begin with? It was because we didn’t like being taxed… It was because we didn’t like being told where and how to worship. It was because we didn’t like being governed by an all-powerful central authority that asserted the power to determine our values for us, to determine our risks and to divvy out our rewards. For that, we fought in more than a handful of wars. I’d say this is actually pretty damned similar to the British marching on Concord.

    You demonstrated none of that- masks need not be used perfectly to be effective that is opinion masquerading as fact. No such study had been done. Additionally, wearing a mask isn’t a highly technical achievement-if it exceeds ones intellectual capacity you have much bigger concerns than pandemics. Some have worried that masks will give a false sense of security but that is OPINION, not fact. A poorly worn mask will not be worse than no mask UNLESS you feel empowered to do foolish things while wearing it. A mask won’t fix stupid. Touching your mask isn’t riskier than touching your face when you aren’t wearing a mask(anyone claiming otherwise is a fraud- medical personnel are taught a sequence to taking off exposed PPE-“donning and doffing”-but it isn’t riskier to wrongly remove PPE than be exposed w/o it). Masks slow transmission of respiratory viruses, are cheap, and are safe-and you can’t say that about any other piece of equipment we have. Masks cause less economic harm than social distancing or banning large gathering and are most likely additive to those precautions.

    Valiuth linked to the study and I quoted it directly.

    • #84
  25. Hammer, The Inactive
    Hammer, The
    @RyanM

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    D.A. Venters (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    I’m not sure the nursing home data is helpful to your case. First, a lot of people do have temporary stays in nursing homes, usually to undergo physical or occupational therapy.

    Beside that point, the fact that the disease was particularly widespread in places like nursing homes, prisons, aircraft carriers, etc…suggests (not saying proves, just suggests) that the distancing, voluntary or mandatory, probably did slow the spread considerably, and probably saved a lot of lives. So far at least. Those places where distancing was especially difficult got hit the hardest. I don’t say this to argue for endless lockdowns, but I do think the cautious reopening is wise.

    I don’t believe that temporary stays are in any way common.

    Also- that’s certainly a theory. But unless you believe that we should continue these measures indefinitely – and that they worked – you should replace “saved a lot of lives” with “delayed a lot of deaths.” Or worse,” caused a second wave. My hope is that these measures were ineffective, because the virus will run its course in spite of what we do.

    You mean you hope thousands more will die? Burn out/herd immunity isn’t cheap-it’s thousands of deaths.

    Yes, MiMac, I hope thousands more will die. Hundreds of thousands, if possible. You got me, there.

    • #85
  26. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    D.A. Venters (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    I’m not sure the nursing home data is helpful to your case. First, a lot of people do have temporary stays in nursing homes, usually to undergo physical or occupational therapy.

    Beside that point, the fact that the disease was particularly widespread in places like nursing homes, prisons, aircraft carriers, etc…suggests (not saying proves, just suggests) that the distancing, voluntary or mandatory, probably did slow the spread considerably, and probably saved a lot of lives. So far at least. Those places where distancing was especially difficult got hit the hardest. I don’t say this to argue for endless lockdowns, but I do think the cautious reopening is wise.

    I don’t believe that temporary stays are in any way common.

    Also- that’s certainly a theory. But unless you believe that we should continue these measures indefinitely – and that they worked – you should replace “saved a lot of lives” with “delayed a lot of deaths.” Or worse,” caused a second wave. My hope is that these measures were ineffective, because the virus will run its course in spite of what we do.

    You mean you hope thousands more will die? Burn out/herd immunity isn’t cheap-it’s thousands of deaths. I fear the virus may run its course- not hope. I reserve hope for I hope we can prevent further deaths-especially thru developing a vaccine or antiviral meds. I hope the measures worked- why would you hope for a recession and >100K deaths.? Surely, you mean fear not hope.

     

    • #86
  27. Hammer, The Inactive
    Hammer, The
    @RyanM

    Mendel (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):
    and the costs are extreme.

    The costs of masks are extreme? I find this silly.

    Masks are a real pain in the you-know-what. I hate wearing one.

    But compared to measures that have put nearly one-third of the American workforce out of a job, masks are a miniscule drop in the bucket.

    I fully agree that the evidence showing the benefit of masks is still very shaky at best. But constantly railing against masks when their detrimental effects are less than one-millionth of many other measures still in place reveals a breathtaking lack of perspective.

    Bottom line: if you’re going to rant, please rant against one of the millions of restrictions still in place that is actually harmful.

    If you don’t think legally mandating that people cover their faces, or risk fines or imprisonment, is actually harmful, I think you need some lessons in history, and hopefully you won’t get those lessons in the present.

    Think about the implications of what you just said. Evidence is shaky at best, but it’s not nearly as bad as these other horrible things… And the justifications given will never not be there.

    You, my friend, are in no position to be accusing me of lacking perspective.

     

     

    • #87
  28. MiMac Thatcher
    MiMac
    @MiMac

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    I don’t wear a mask to the dentist. Am I a bad person?

    Maybe, but not because of that. :) I heard somewhere that it’s tough to clean someone’s teeth when they’re wearing a mask.

    Do you know if there is a mandate to wear masks in places of public accommodation in Virginia? I’m planning a trip but I won’t travel until this nonsense is over.

    As of this coming Friday, yes.

    Tell me again how this is not an issue of tyranny vs. liberty?

    We’ll agree to disagree on what constitutes tyranny. I don’t agree with mandates–particularly as universally applied throughout a state. But this isn’t the British marching on Concord.

    I have just demonstrated that masks do not work absent mandates, and mandates don’t work absent enforcement. And in order for any of it to work, we need the adoption of major, permanent lifestyle changes.

    Why did we fight the British to begin with? It was because we didn’t like being taxed… It was because we didn’t like being told where and how to worship. It was because we didn’t like being governed by an all-powerful central authority that asserted the power to determine our values for us, to determine our risks and to divvy out our rewards. For that, we fought in more than a handful of wars. I’d say this is actually pretty damned similar to the British marching on Concord.

    You demonstrated none of that- masks need not be used perfectly to be effective that is opinion masquerading as fact. No such study had been done. Additionally, wearing a mask isn’t a highly technical achievement-if it exceeds ones intellectual capacity you have much bigger concerns than pandemics. Some have worried that masks will give a false sense of security but that is OPINION, not fact. A poorly worn mask will not be worse than no mask UNLESS you feel empowered to do foolish things while wearing it. A mask won’t fix stupid. Touching your mask isn’t riskier than touching your face when you aren’t wearing a mask(anyone claiming otherwise is a fraud- medical personnel are taught a sequence to taking off exposed PPE-“donning and doffing”-but it isn’t riskier to wrongly remove PPE than be exposed w/o it). Masks slow transmission of respiratory viruses, are cheap, and are safe-and you can’t say that about any other piece of equipment we have. Masks cause less economic harm than social distancing or banning large gathering and are most likely additive to those precautions.

    Valiuth linked to the study and I quoted it directly.

    Yes-and the article SUPPORTS mask wearing and selectively quoting it doesn’t change its conclusions. Nowhere does it say everyone must wear a mask nor wear it correctly to be helpful- it states that it is PART of a program to reduce transmission- it doesn’t say that masks won’t work w/o hand hygiene- it states that hand hygiene is a cornerstone of infection control and it may be difficult to institute in the community. It never states that using  a mask improperly is worse than no mask.  The article does point out that the compliance rate was high and that offmasking activities were associated with an INCREASE in COVID inflection cluster- again supporting mask use. The authors point out that in a case controlled study mask wearing was associated with a 70% reduction in SARS transmission in 2003 (A closely related respiratory virus).  They also point out that at the time, half the cases in So Korea came from an event where masks were NOT worn. So Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore have been among the most successful nations containing the virus- and all have high rates of public mask use. As  I said- masks are the only weapon we currently have to fight the virus that has data supporting it, that is cheap, safe & won’t hurt our economy.

    • #88
  29. Hammer, The Inactive
    Hammer, The
    @RyanM

    MiMac (View Comment):

    MiMac (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    D.A. Venters (View Comment):

    Hammer, The (View Comment):

    I’m not sure the nursing home data is helpful to your case. First, a lot of people do have temporary stays in nursing homes, usually to undergo physical or occupational therapy.

    Beside that point, the fact that the disease was particularly widespread in places like nursing homes, prisons, aircraft carriers, etc…suggests (not saying proves, just suggests) that the distancing, voluntary or mandatory, probably did slow the spread considerably, and probably saved a lot of lives. So far at least. Those places where distancing was especially difficult got hit the hardest. I don’t say this to argue for endless lockdowns, but I do think the cautious reopening is wise.

    I don’t believe that temporary stays are in any way common.

    Also- that’s certainly a theory. But unless you believe that we should continue these measures indefinitely – and that they worked – you should replace “saved a lot of lives” with “delayed a lot of deaths.” Or worse,” caused a second wave. My hope is that these measures were ineffective, because the virus will run its course in spite of what we do.

    You mean you hope thousands more will die? Burn out/herd immunity isn’t cheap-it’s thousands of deaths. I fear the virus may run its course- not hope. I reserve hope for I hope we can prevent further deaths-especially thru developing a vaccine or antiviral meds. I hope the measures worked- why would you hope for a recession and >100K deaths.? Surely, you mean fear not hope.

     

    No, I mean hope. I hope that these measures did not work, because if they did, that will mean an inevitable “second wave,” which would justify even more of the awful damage we’ve already self-inflicted.

    I hope that our stupidity came too late, and that the virus has already come very close to running its course.

    And then I hope that conservatives will once again learn to pick up history books and stop with this foolish mindset that we can be protected from risk.

    Safety is the promise of every dictator.

    • #89
  30. DonG (skeptic) Coolidge
    DonG (skeptic)
    @DonG

    It is a muzzle.

     

    Woman Who Refuses to be Silenced Covers Mouth in Duct Tape | Mouth ...

    • #90
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