Contributor Post Created with Sketch. Recommended by Ricochet Members Created with Sketch. Live Unfree or Die

 

New Hampshire Governor Chris Sununu (RINO) has shut down the Granite State. He has issued a “Stay at Home” order effective March 27, at 11:59 p.m., through May 4. The NH Attorney General has issued a memorandum to law enforcement in the state advising them that they can arrest and charge people for violating the governor’s emergency orders.

I emailed my town’s chief of police to ask him if he was going to arrest me for leaving my house. He said no. But there are also state troopers (one who lives down the road from me) and sheriff’s deputies around as well.

Our state motto is, absurdly, “Live Free or Die.”

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  1. EODmom Coolidge

    I am incensed about this. The change in our part of the Seacoast is appalling: our usual market has blue tape to mark “safe space”, no one talks above a whisper in the store, no one makes eye contact, and where there was normal replenishment there are now empty shelves in predictable parts of the store and eggs are rationed. I bought 6 bunches of flowers so they don’t rot. And they are pretty. Somehow our elected officials have convinced people they should hide. And the list of “essential” occupations is so extensive that a better approach would have been to list people who are vulnerable and advise them to shelter at home and take care of themselves. Why present it as a reason to hide? And to close the beaches? Looks like a way to keep Christians from celebrating Easter at dawn. #75 and Nancy live in our neighborhood and I don’t know how I’ll greet them now. We sent “sternly worded”messages to Chris but I doubt telling him he shouldn’t be listening to Useless Baker and Duplicitous Mills instead of his own working citizens will matter. Furious I am. His own Dept Health said publicly 2 weeks ago that they have been dealing with pandemics every year for 50 years. 

    • #1
    • March 27, 2020, at 4:25 PM PDT
    • 9 likes
  2. Full Size Tabby Member

    The point of “stay at home” orders is to prevent transmission of disease to other people. Depending on your surroundings, you can go quite some distance without risking transmission of disease to other people. As I noted in another thread, on my 1.25 hour long recreational bicycle ride at 5:30 this morning on the creekside trail in my smallish town in north-central Texas I encountered exactly one person and five deer, and I touched nothing other than the handlebar of my own bicycle. A law to prevent me from going on such a ride would not change any “risk vector” of disease transmission.

    • #2
    • March 27, 2020, at 4:48 PM PDT
    • 13 likes
  3. PHCheese Member

    Live un free to live another day?

    • #3
    • March 27, 2020, at 4:53 PM PDT
    • 3 likes
  4. Al French of Damascus Moderator

    Even true blue progressive Oregon hasn’t gone that far. The governor has issued a “stay at home” order, but as to individuals, it is advisory. The state police clarified that it isn’t martial law and that citizens’ movements are not restricted.

    • #4
    • March 27, 2020, at 5:26 PM PDT
    • 3 likes
  5. 9thDistrictNeighbor Member

    I continue to be totally astounded at the number of people who accept the total removal of our civil liberties. I cannot go to church. New Yorkers will be turned away from other states. The lakefront in Chicago is closed. We are frogs in tepid waters.

    • #5
    • March 27, 2020, at 5:33 PM PDT
    • 6 likes
  6. DonG (skeptic) Coolidge

    I keep thinking of the Whiskey Rebellion. Someday, maybe soon, people are going to riot, because of the lack of toilet paper or they are just restless. Supposedly the people in Wuhan were rioting today. I don’t know why. Perhaps they were restless?

    • #6
    • March 27, 2020, at 5:44 PM PDT
    • 4 likes
  7. Bruce Caward Thatcher
    Bruce Caward Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    How is the cop supposed to give you the ticket? That interaction would be more close contact than I would have heading over to the park to hike the trails.

    • #7
    • March 27, 2020, at 8:50 PM PDT
    • 5 likes
  8. TBA Coolidge
    TBA

    Bruce Caward (View Comment):

    How is the cop supposed to give you the ticket? That interaction would be more close contact than I would have heading over to the park to hike the trails.

    I think you’re on to something. 

    These ‘orders’ are likely not legal and would be hard to enforce. My guess is that they are there to discourage stupid people from taking risks…which is what some of the engineered panic is about as well. 

    But when, not if, these fatwas are tested there’s gonna be fallout. 

    • #8
    • March 27, 2020, at 9:08 PM PDT
    • 1 like
  9. Full Size Tabby Member

    Didn’t the American public tolerate a rather total restriction on civil liberties during World War II? People needed government permission to purchase many food products, gasoline, and car tires. Government restricted how people could light their houses and used their window curtains. But those restrictions were lifted at the end of the war.

    If the risks of global viral infection are comparable to the risks of global war, maybe restrictions make sense. The government claims to be trying to reduce the spread of infection so that the medical system is not overwhelmed. 

    But, unlike the situation in World War II, the benefits of the restrictions now are not as clear as the benefits were then. The public could see and hear from relatives and friends the use in war of the resources that the public was prevented from using at home. Much of the public is not convinced that the virus is as easily spread as the government claims, nor that the virus is as deadly as the government claims, and so are not convinced that the restrictions on civil liberties will really have the benefit the government claims as justification. 

    Also unlike the situation in World War II, in which there were two clear events that signaled that the restrictions would be lifted – the surrender of Germany and Japan. To many people today, the end point of the current infection is not as clear, so there is suspicion that the restrictions on civil liberties will never be withdrawn. 

     

     

     

    • #9
    • March 28, 2020, at 5:26 AM PDT
    • 5 likes
  10. The Reticulator Member

    Full Size Tabby (View Comment):

    Didn’t the American public tolerate a rather total restriction on civil liberties during World War II? People needed government permission to purchase many food products, gasoline, and car tires. Government restricted how people could light their houses and used their window curtains. But those restrictions were lifted at the end of the war.

    If the risks of global viral infection are comparable to the risks of global war, maybe restrictions make sense. The government claims to be trying to reduce the spread of infection so that the medical system is not overwhelmed.

    But, unlike the situation in World War II, the benefits of the restrictions now are not as clear as the benefits were then. The public could see and hear from relatives and friends the use in war of the resources that the public was prevented from using at home. Much of the public is not convinced that the virus is as easily spread as the government claims, nor that the virus is as deadly as the government claims, and so are not convinced that the restrictions on civil liberties will really have the benefit the government claims as justification.

    Also unlike the situation in World War II, in which there were two clear events that signaled that the restrictions would be lifted – the surrender of Germany and Japan. To many people today, the end point of the current infection is not as clear, so there is suspicion that the restrictions on civil liberties will never be withdrawn.

     

    Also, Congress hasn’t declared war.

     

     

    • #10
    • March 28, 2020, at 5:35 AM PDT
    • 1 like
  11. Stad Thatcher

    Full Size Tabby (View Comment):
    The point of “stay at home” orders is to prevent transmission of disease to other people.

    Understood, but I am willing to go out and about. I believe these lockdowns are really illegal house arrest orders.

    • #11
    • March 28, 2020, at 5:47 AM PDT
    • 6 likes
  12. Stad Thatcher

    Full Size Tabby (View Comment):
    Didn’t the American public tolerate a rather total restriction on civil liberties during World War II? People needed government permission to purchase many food products, gasoline, and car tires.

    It wasn’t a total restriction. People didn’t need “permission” to buy things. Items were rationed. When my grandfather heard the government was going to start rationing food items, he immediately rushed to the store and bought a case of Lea & Perrins. I’m sure it didn’t last more than a year . . .

    • #12
    • March 28, 2020, at 5:49 AM PDT
    • 1 like
  13. GrannyDude Member

    Hmmn. 

    My kid-the-cop says she and her comrades went around town yesterday, telling non-essential businesses that they needed to close up shop. She also told me that if I go to the store, not only should I wash my hands when I get home, I should also take a shower. 

    They definitely will not be arresting you. The jails don’t want you. The courts don’t want you. Unless you’ve actually committed a violent act, they will do their best to send you on your way. So I don’t really see the point of a government official making this sound like martial law; it’s not, and it’s not really helpful for police officers, who are still going to need to respond to calls and help people, to be given the role (even just rhetorically) of quarantine gestapo.

    • #13
    • March 28, 2020, at 6:49 AM PDT
    • 10 likes
  14. EODmom Coolidge

    Stad (View Comment):

    Full Size Tabby (View Comment):
    The point of “stay at home” orders is to prevent transmission of disease to other people.

    Understood, but I am willing to go out and about. I believe these lockdowns are really illegal house arrest orders.

    That was the substance of EODDad’s letter to Sununu. In 4 part harmony.

    • #14
    • March 28, 2020, at 6:49 AM PDT
    • 2 likes
  15. Stad Thatcher

    GrannyDude (View Comment):
    telling non-essential businesses that they needed to close up shop.

    I guess I still have a problem with the government telling me to close my business. It may not be essential for survival of the population, but it is for my economic survival (which can impact long-term health). Some may survive a drop-off in customers, but closing the doors even temporarily may end up closing them for good. I’ll be interested to see the number of businesses that failed and didn’t reopen after this thing blows over . . .

    • #15
    • March 28, 2020, at 7:00 AM PDT
    • 6 likes
  16. EODmom Coolidge

    Stad (View Comment):

    GrannyDude (View Comment):
    telling non-essential businesses that they needed to close up shop.

    I guess I still have a problem with the government telling me to close my business. It may not be essential for survival of the population, but it is for my economic survival (which can impact long-term health). Some may survive a drop-off in customers, but closing the doors even temporarily may end up closing them for good. I’ll be interested to see the number of businesses that failed and didn’t reopen after this thing blows over . . .

    The list of essential businesses is extensive – just about the only ones left off are the really peripheral and probably the equivalent of subsistence farming. Barbers, hair salons, nail salons, candy stores, dry cleaners and the like – people who just support themselves and their three or so employees. And small hospitality who couldn’t carry debt on their margins even if they applied and qualified. It would have been far better to identify the vulnerable and urge appropriate actions like isolation, self care and early contact with medical care. It would also make sense to identify risky populations- like Manchester and maybe Concord and groups who are immune suppressed for some reason. But that would be seen as unfair wouldn’t it? This way people are encouraged to hide. 

    • #16
    • March 28, 2020, at 7:17 AM PDT
    • 2 likes
  17. GrannyDude Member

    EODmom (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    GrannyDude (View Comment):
    telling non-essential businesses that they needed to close up shop.

    I guess I still have a problem with the government telling me to close my business. It may not be essential for survival of the population, but it is for my economic survival (which can impact long-term health). Some may survive a drop-off in customers, but closing the doors even temporarily may end up closing them for good. I’ll be interested to see the number of businesses that failed and didn’t reopen after this thing blows over . . .

    The list of essential businesses is extensive – just about the only ones left off are the really peripheral and probably the equivalent of subsistence farming. Barbers, hair salons, nail salons, candy stores, dry cleaners and the like – people who just support themselves and their three or so employees. And small hospitality who couldn’t carry debt on their margins even if they applied and qualified. It would have been far better to identify the vulnerable and urge appropriate actions like isolation, self care and early contact with medical care. It would also make sense to identify risky populations- like Manchester and maybe Concord and groups who are immune suppressed for some reason. But that would be seen as unfair wouldn’t it? This way people are encouraged to hide.

    My concern—being a Worst Case Scenario sort of person—is that people are going to get so freaked out at the thought of getting sick that they won’t go help their neighbors if, say, everyone in the family comes down with Wuhan at the same time. They don’t have to be dying in order to have a pretty miserable time of it if no one can provide hydration, food and monitoring of symptoms. Or childcare, in case the parents are sick and the kids are fine.

    If I were the governor, I’d make it all sound as voluntary and collaborative as I possibly could, and encourage people to keep things in perspective. For one thing, I wouldn’t want to discourage helpers, and getting people in the habit of getting completely freaked out over a trip to the grocery store is not good for the social fabric we want and need. 

    If my neighbor is ill, I’m not taking my life into my hands by going over to her house, giving her some soup, taking her temperature and making sure she’s got enough tylenol and water. By far the majority of people who get this virus will survive and be fine. Surely this is a risk we want to encourage people to take?

    Evil thought: if only transgender people were capable of transmitting (ha!) Wuhan, we’d be fussing not about germs but about stigma.

    • #17
    • March 28, 2020, at 7:49 AM PDT
    • 7 likes
  18. Old Buckeye Member

    Even if it’s a good idea to keep people out of public places for a time, doesn’t an entire MONTH seem like a bit too long???

    • #18
    • March 28, 2020, at 7:51 AM PDT
    • 2 likes
  19. Max Ledoux Admin
    Max Ledoux

    Good news — Governor Sununu is not only keeping the NH Liquor Stores open, he’s giving the state employees who work there a 10% raise.

    😠

    • #19
    • March 28, 2020, at 10:02 AM PDT
    • 4 likes
  20. Weeping Member

    Old Buckeye (View Comment):

    Even if it’s a good idea to keep people out of public places for a time, doesn’t an entire MONTH seem like a bit too long???

    I agree – especially when you hear talk about a second possible spike happening once everyone is on the move again. At some point – and I think sooner rather than later – you just have to let life continue and the chips fall where they may.

    • #20
    • March 28, 2020, at 10:03 AM PDT
    • 5 likes
  21. The Reticulator Member

    Max Ledoux (View Comment):

    Good news — Governor Sununu is not only keeping the NH Liquor Stores open, he’s giving the state employees who work there a 10% raise.

    😠

    I agree with your emoticon.

    • #21
    • March 28, 2020, at 12:44 PM PDT
    • 1 like
  22. EODmom Coolidge

    GrannyDude (View Comment):

    EODmom (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    GrannyDude (View Comment):
    telling non-essential businesses that they needed to close up shop.

    I guess I still have a problem with the government telling me to close my business. It may not be essential for survival of the population, but it is for my economic survival (which can impact long-term health). Some may survive a drop-off in customers, but closing the doors even temporarily may end up closing them for good. I’ll be interested to see the number of businesses that failed and didn’t reopen after this thing blows over . . .

    The list of essential businesses is extensive – just about the only ones left off are the really peripheral and probably the equivalent of subsistence farming. Barbers, hair salons, nail salons, candy stores, dry cleaners and the like – people who just support themselves and their three or so employees. And small hospitality who couldn’t carry debt on their margins even if they applied and qualified. It would have been far better to identify the vulnerable and urge appropriate actions like isolation, self care and early contact with medical care. It would also make sense to identify risky populations- like Manchester and maybe Concord and groups who are immune suppressed for some reason. But that would be seen as unfair wouldn’t it? This way people are encouraged to hide.

    My concern—being a Worst Case Scenario sort of person—is that people are going to get so freaked out at the thought of getting sick that they won’t go help their neighbors if, say, everyone in the family comes down with Wuhan at the same time. They don’t have to be dying in order to have a pretty miserable time of it if no one can provide hydration, food and monitoring of symptoms. Or childcare, in case the parents are sick and the kids are fine………….

     

    I’ll guess that the same people who will help during this virus are the same ones who spontaneously helped in other difficult circumstances. And those who won’t – won’t. Our Fine Governor managed to word its announcement in the most hyperbolic way. And now people think they will all die if they encounter someone else. And, some who might want to will simply not be able, realistically, to help others. I think of the more elderly than I who have always been engaged with neighbors and friends and would do but no longer can’t. So I’ll posit that help is going on in usual ways- some obvious some not. I picked up another sack of dog chow yesterday and saw someone else buying a 50 lb sack for the store’s sponsorship of a local shelter. So I did the same – I wouldn’t have thought about shelters without being there at that moment. Americans remain the most generous and unselfish citizens and neighbors on the planet. By and large. 
    “Do you need help?” 

    • #22
    • March 28, 2020, at 12:50 PM PDT
    • 4 likes
  23. Stad Thatcher

    GrannyDude (View Comment):
    Evil thought: if only transgender people were capable of transmitting (ha!) Wuhan, we’d be fussing not about germs but about stigma.

    Reminds me of AIDS . . .

    • #23
    • March 28, 2020, at 1:05 PM PDT
    • 2 likes
  24. Stad Thatcher

    Max Ledoux (View Comment):

    Good news — Governor Sununu is not only keeping the NH Liquor Stores open, he’s giving the state employees who work there a 10% raise.

    😠

    At least he’s smart enough to know liquor stores are an essential service . . .

    • #24
    • March 28, 2020, at 1:06 PM PDT
    • 4 likes
  25. The Reticulator Member

    Stad (View Comment):

    Max Ledoux (View Comment):

    Good news — Governor Sununu is not only keeping the NH Liquor Stores open, he’s giving the state employees who work there a 10% raise.

    😠

    At least he’s smart enough to know liquor stores are an essential service . . .

    I wonder if there are people who are recently unemployed who would have been glad to get those jobs at the old pay rate. Some of them might even know their way around a liquor store.

    • #25
    • March 28, 2020, at 1:57 PM PDT
    • 1 like
  26. Vance Richards Member
    Vance Richards Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Stad (View Comment):

    Max Ledoux (View Comment):

    Good news — Governor Sununu is not only keeping the NH Liquor Stores open, he’s giving the state employees who work there a 10% raise.

    😠

    At least he’s smart enough to know liquor stores are an essential service . . .

    NJ deemed liquor stores here as “essential” as well. And our liquor stores are privately owned . . . but heavily taxed

    • #26
    • March 28, 2020, at 2:45 PM PDT
    • 4 likes
  27. TBA Coolidge
    TBA

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    Max Ledoux (View Comment):

    Good news — Governor Sununu is not only keeping the NH Liquor Stores open, he’s giving the state employees who work there a 10% raise.

    😠

    At least he’s smart enough to know liquor stores are an essential service . . .

    I wonder if there are people who are recently unemployed who would have been glad to get those jobs at the old pay rate. Some of them might even know their way around a liquor store.

    These are government-trained booze-workers who work for the state. These jobs can’t be performed by some Republican who walks off the street. 

    • #27
    • March 28, 2020, at 3:29 PM PDT
    • 4 likes
  28. D.A. Venters Member

    I’m as big a fan as the next guy of the “live free or die” revolutionary American spirit, and I appreciate Americans’ allergy to anything that hints of tyranny, but under the current circumstances, I think these orders governors have been issuing are reasonable and legitimate. I don’t think they would offend our revolutionary forebears.

    The revolutionary spirit of ’76 was about asserting natural rights as free people, about refusing to be governed as pawns in the games of royalty and other elites who claimed some divine right to rule over us. 

    That’s not what is happening now. Now, they are pulling up refrigerated trucks in NYC to handle the extra bodies. Now, the governor of Ohio is announcing the need to triple the number of hospital beds in the state over the next few weeks. Now, many elites are voluntarily forfeiting billions in revenue (major league sports, the NCAA tournament, the closing of factories, doctors putting off elective surgeries, and on and on). There have already been nurses and doctors who have gotten terribly sick as a result of treating patients with this, and there will almost certainly be more. At least a couple nurses have died, as I understand it. This is an extraordinary event.

    Over the past few weeks I have seen and read all kinds of things downplaying this event, on this site and in other places, and I have tried to glean some hope out of those things. I latched on to that commentary. But so far, most all of that has been wrong. This is obviously worse than the flu. Regardless of how the death rates eventually shake out, the flu doesn’t cause this strain on the hospital system. This is progressing, for the most part, as those who were sounding the alarm said it would. The places that put these kinds of orders in place sooner rather than later will weather this crisis much better.

    There will be a tremendous strain and stress on nurses and doctors over the coming weeks. If all I’m expected to do is stay home as much as possible, I consider myself fortunate, though my income is suffering too.

    The founders of this country, as much as they had that “live free or die spirit,” also knew that in times of crisis, certain privations, certain sacrifices had to be endured, the expectation of militia service being just one of them. 

    It’s true there is a risk of overbearing government tyranny in all this, but I trust we will be able to sort that out. We have (or at least had) the quality of discernment, of judgment, when it comes to that question. Again, the folks who were warning that this would be a true crisis have so far been correct. Duly elected, state level, local level politicians, fully answerable to the public, making these kinds of decisions in an obvious crisis – does not feel like tyranny to me. 

    • #28
    • March 28, 2020, at 6:04 PM PDT
    • 3 likes
  29. Concretevol Thatcher

    9thDistrictNeighbor (View Comment):

    I continue to be totally astounded at the number of people who accept the total removal of our civil liberties. I cannot go to church. New Yorkers will be turned away from other states. The lakefront in Chicago is closed. We are frogs in tepid waters.

    I mean to be fair, turning away New Yorkers should be standard practice anyways. lol

    • #29
    • March 28, 2020, at 7:19 PM PDT
    • 5 likes
  30. Concretevol Thatcher

    Here in a small town in Blount Co., TN there is a restaurant at one of the boat docks I ate at last Friday. The state/county have both issued orders to close all restaurants and only serve takeout orders. The owner of the above restaurant said unless someone can give him a good reason to close when businesses like Rubbermaid remain open he will tell anyone shutting him down to get the F off his property. Now…..I’m sure if fined he will have to comply but everyone isn’t going along with this already, and we aren’t anything like what y’all are describing. No way in hell they could get people to stay inside for any period of time. I already noticed a large uptick in traffic from the beginning of the week until now. Went by Lowes today and it was packed (which didn’t seem smart).

    • #30
    • March 28, 2020, at 7:24 PM PDT
    • 2 likes