Recommended by Ricochet Members Created with Sketch. Go Woke, Go Broke: Boy Scouts File for Bankruptcy

 

“Go Woke, Go Broke: __________________” … Hmm, I wonder how times I could type that in the future?

“Facing a wave of lawsuits over allegations of sexual abuse, the Boy Scouts of America has filed for bankruptcy.”

I didn’t even know that the Boy Scouts were an actual business. I thought it was just a bunch of volunteers who got together. If someone did something wrong, I think morally you are supposed to sue that person, not the organization. The Democrats didn’t file for bankruptcy after Bill Clinton.

“The Boy Scouts of America cares deeply about all victims of abuse and sincerely apologizes to anyone who was harmed during their time in Scouting. We are outraged that there have been times when individuals took advantage of our programs to harm innocent children.” — Roger Mosby, the president and CEO of the Boy Scouts of America

Yeah, well, since American culture worships guys like Harvey Milk who preyed on boys at least as young as 16. Perhaps opening up the Boy Scouts to such scoutmasters would be a bad idea. Perhaps putting hormone-surging puberty-age boys and girls together in the same group also isn’t a great idea. It looks like even the term “scoutmaster” has been banned. Apparently the words aren’t sexist as much as racist.

“…the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, has left the Boy Scouts struggling to find ways to remain relevant. Last year, it began accepting girls into its namesake program, setting off a recruitment war with the Girl Scouts.”

The Left just wants to destroy all historical institutions that are good and believe in faith and rural America. The Left could have tried to turn the Boy Scouts into more of an outdoor environmental organization, but I guess there was way too much history with faith, among other things.

Republicans get woke too, I guess. Two of the last presidents of the Boy Scouts of America have been Rex Tillerson (2012–2014) and Robert Gates (2014–2016).

Woke? I actually hate that term. The first I heard that word used in that way in public, in a rather joking way, was in the middle of 2017. That was less than three years ago. The world moves fast.

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  1. Aaron Miller Member
    Aaron Miller Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    The Cloaked Gaijin: The Left just wants to destroy all historical institutions that are good and believe in faith and rural America.

    Agreed. Or, rather, the Left is in the grip of evil and most don’t even realize how consistently destructive their culture is. 

    The Boy Scouts was an admirable organization for many generations and it’s sad to see it sabotaged. At least one Ricochet member I know has been a Scout leader or assistant. 

    But its dissolution (if that’s what bankruptcy means in this case) is probably good in the long run if it inspires new and local organizations free of national manias. And there are still many Boy Scouts handbooks in circulation. Someone will keep the old ways alive.

    • #1
    • February 18, 2020, at 5:48 AM PST
    • 8 likes
  2. Pony Convertible Member

    I think the Boy Scouts is a great organization. I was an assistant scout leader when my kids were in scouts. We did a lot of great things together. However when I was 11 or 12 years old, the scout master pulled out his junk and masturbated in front of us kids as we sat around the campfire.

    Problems exists. The scouts have good policies in place to prevent those problems (no adult is ever to be alone with a child, or children, except their own). If they didn’t enforce those policies, they deserve to suffer the consequences.

    • #2
    • February 18, 2020, at 5:48 AM PST
    • 8 likes
  3. danok1 Member

    Don’t think this has anything to do with BSA’s recent “woke” policies. This article at National Review states:

    From 1944 there have been almost 8,000 perpetrators and over 12,000 victims the organization knew of, while the Boy Scouts said at the time that all known instances had been reported to the police.

    The Scouts weren’t woke in 1944. 

    • #3
    • February 18, 2020, at 5:50 AM PST
    • 7 likes
  4. JamesSalerno Coolidge

    “Floods of sexual abuse allegations” raises red flags for me.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/08/06/boy-scouts-failed-stop-hundreds-previously-unknown-sexual-predators-lawsuit-alleges/ 

    I’m not going to say that nothing happened, but I’m suspicious. I get suspicious when stories start coming out decades, half a century, after the fact and then they’re reported as if it’s a sudden tidal wave. I get suspicious when the people reporting have an agenda. Mainstream media will go out of their way to dig up dirt on the Boy Scouts and go just as out of their way to hide the same dirt on Hollywood or the Democratic party.

    I have many fond memories of my time in scouts and it’s a shame to see what’s happened to them lately.

    • #4
    • February 18, 2020, at 5:55 AM PST
    • 12 likes
  5. Arahant Member

    Sad.

    • #5
    • February 18, 2020, at 7:13 AM PST
    • 5 likes
  6. Susan Quinn Contributor

    I was in Brownies and Girl Scouts and would not have been at all interested in being in a group with boys. It’s too bad that rather than trying to make things right and viable, the organization is basically being destroyed. It’s just not right.

    • #6
    • February 18, 2020, at 7:23 AM PST
    • 7 likes
  7. Stad Thatcher

    The Cloaked Gaijin: Woke? I actually hate that term.

    Me and you both . . .

    • #7
    • February 18, 2020, at 7:43 AM PST
    • 4 likes
  8. DonG (skeptic) Coolidge

    I read the BSA has $10B in assets and $1B in debts. This looks like a legal way to turn the page on open lawsuits. There will be a new organization that uses the the BSA name, but doesn’t have past legal liabilities. 

    • #8
    • February 18, 2020, at 8:31 AM PST
    • 5 likes
  9. Richard O'Shea Coolidge

    My father and my son are both Eagle Scouts. I only made to Star. All three of us had nothing but good scouting experiences, and I assume all three of my grandsons will go through the program.

    Around us, there are separate troops, meetings and camping experiences for the girls who want the scouting experience without the social indoctrination of the Girl Scouts.

    I assume the bankruptcy is a clever legal maneuver. I hope it is not too clever.

    • #9
    • February 18, 2020, at 9:16 AM PST
    • 6 likes
  10. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member

    People have a hard time with numbers. If you look at the numbers, I don’t see any evidence of a significant sex abuse problem in the Boy Scouts. My impression is that the same holds for the Catholic Church. Obviously, terrible things happen sometimes, but the rates seem to be extremely low.

    Here’s a quick calculation.

    A National Review article today reports that there have been 12,000 reports of sexual abuse of Scouts since 1944. That’s 75 years. The number of scouts seems to average around 4 million/year (based on a chart showing 3.8 million in 1950, 6.5 million in 1972, 4.8 million in 1998, and 2.3 million in 2016). 75 years times 4 million/year is 300 million Scout-years.

    Divide by 12,000 and you get the rate — 0.004%, or 4 per 100,000. The murder rate is about 5 per 100,000, and is at a record low (at least in recent history).

    Obviously, we’d like the rate to be zero. Keeping out homosexual adults would help, but the Scouts abandoned that simple rule.

    • #10
    • February 18, 2020, at 9:24 AM PST
    • 17 likes
  11. CJ Coolidge
    CJ

    The visibility that the Corporate Press gives an institution for its child sexual abuses is inversely proportional to the political power of that institution (e.g. Hollywood, the British royal family).

    • #11
    • February 18, 2020, at 12:12 PM PST
    • 9 likes
  12. Brian Watt Member
    Brian Watt Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Pony Convertible (View Comment):

    I think the Boy Scouts is a great organization. I was an assistant scout leader when my kids were in scouts. We did a lot of great things together. However when I was 11 or 12 years old, the scout master pulled out his junk and masturbated in front of us kids as we sat around the campfire.

    Problems exists. The scouts have good policies in place to prevent those problems (no adult is ever to be alone with a child, or children, except their own). If they didn’t enforce those policies, they deserve to suffer the consequences.

    Please tell me that the scoutmaster was reported to the authorities and arrested. What the heck did the other adults do?

    My brothers and I were all in the Boy Scouts. My father and my uncle were both assistant scoutmasters and a family friend and neighbor was our scoutmaster. All of the adults who served as assistant scoutmasters, if memory serves, were WWII vets and had a son or sons in the troop with the exception of one who was also a neighbor, happily married, an outdoorsman and who invited our family up to their mountain cabin where my brothers and I learned how to shoot rifles and handle the weapons responsibly. The disgusting incident like the one you described would have never happened. Had an adult done that in front of the boys, the man would have been pummeled and taken to the nearest police station.

    • #12
    • February 19, 2020, at 7:10 AM PST
    • 8 likes
  13. TBA Coolidge
    TBA

    Molested boys. 

    Left: Toxic masculinity in a ‘Christian’ organization. 

    Right: Gay scout masters doing what we always knew they would. 

    Perhaps we will find out over the course of time what this actually means. 

    But I wouldn’t bet on it. 

    • #13
    • February 19, 2020, at 12:26 PM PST
    • Like
  14. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    OK. 

    So, Lawsuits from incidents in the 1960s and 1970s are blamed on “getting woke”. Is that what I should understand? How does that work, exactly?

    The BSA has not changed its fundemental core. These are:

    Boy Scout Oath or Promise

    On my honor, I will do my best
    To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
    To help other people at all times;
    To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.


    Note that the Boy Scout Oath has traditionally been considered to have three promises. Those three promises are delineated by the semicolons in the Oath, which divide it into three clauses. The three promises of the Scout Oath are, therefore:

    • Duty to God and country,
    • Duty to other people, and
    • Duty to self

    DUTY TO GOD AND COUNTRY: Your family and religious leaders teach you to know and serve God. By following these teachings, you do your duty to God.

    Men and women of the past worked to make America great, and many gave their lives for their country. By being a good family member and a good citizen, by working for your country’s good and obeying its laws, you do your duty to your country. Obeying the Scout Law means living by its 12 points.

    DUTY TO OTHER PEOPLE: Many people need help. A cheery smile and a helping hand make life easier for others. By doing a Good Turn daily and helping when you’re needed, you prove yourself a Scout and do your part to make this a better world.

    DUTY TO SELF: Keeping yourself physically strong means taking care of your body. Eat the right foods and build your strength. Staying mentally awake means learn all you can, be curious, and ask questions. Being morally straight means to live your life with honesty, to be clean in your speech and actions, and to be a person of strong character.

     

    Boy Scout Law

    A Scout is:

    • Trustworthy,
    • Loyal,
    • Helpful,
    • Friendly,
    • Courteous,
    • Kind,
    • Obedient,
    • Cheerful,
    • Thrifty,
    • Brave,
    • Clean,
    • and Reverent.

    I am going to continue my service to make America a better place, by helping young men and women learn these values. What are you doing for the next generation?

    • #14
    • February 19, 2020, at 4:42 PM PST
    • 5 likes
  15. Steve C. Member

    Brian Watt (View Comment):

    Pony Convertible (View Comment):

    I think the Boy Scouts is a great organization. I was an assistant scout leader when my kids were in scouts. We did a lot of great things together. However when I was 11 or 12 years old, the scout master pulled out his junk and masturbated in front of us kids as we sat around the campfire.

    Problems exists. The scouts have good policies in place to prevent those problems (no adult is ever to be alone with a child, or children, except their own). If they didn’t enforce those policies, they deserve to suffer the consequences.

    Please tell me that the scoutmaster was reported to the authorities and arrested. What the heck did the other adults do?

    My brothers and I were all in the Boy Scouts. My father and my uncle were both assistant scoutmasters and a family friend and neighbor was our scoutmaster. All of the adults who served as assistant scoutmasters, if memory serves, were WWII vets and had a son or sons in the troop with the exception of one who was also a neighbor, happily married, an outdoorsman and who invited our family up to their mountain cabin where my brothers and I learned how to shoot rifles and handle the weapons responsibly. The disgusting incident like the one you described would have never happened. Had an adult done that in front of the boys, the man would have been pummeled and taken to the nearest police station.

    I concur. Most of our leaders were veterans of WWII or Korea. One of the dads was a Marine Raider who served on Guadalcanal and became an instructor in the Marine survival school. In all my time as a scout I never saw or heard of this type of behavior. 

    • #15
    • February 19, 2020, at 6:38 PM PST
    • 6 likes
  16. Michael S. Malone Contributor

    danok1 (View Comment):

    Don’t think this has anything to do with BSA’s recent “woke” policies. This article at National Review states:

    From 1944 there have been almost 8,000 perpetrators and over 12,000 victims the organization knew of, while the Boy Scouts said at the time that all known instances had been reported to the police.

    The Scouts weren’t woke in 1944.

    Distinguished Eagle Scout here, father of two Eagles, and current assistant scoutmaster of a boy troop and commissioner of a new girl troop. Since 1944 there have been approximately 100 million Scouts. Twelve thousand victims is horrible, but as a percentage it is much less than the general U.S. population. Meanwhile, for the last fifteen years Scouts has had perhaps the best youth protection training program in the country — other youth non-profits come to Scouting for advice how to emulate it. Scouting’s decision to go bankrupt to create a $1 billion fund to compensate the victims is the right — and Scouting — thing to do.

    BTW: the girls in Scouting are very, very impressive . . .

    • #16
    • February 19, 2020, at 7:18 PM PST
    • 8 likes
  17. TBA Coolidge
    TBA

    Was looking for an article on the BSA Chapter 11 from a source that might be somewhat reputable. One of the first google hits was a site that turned out to be a place to sign up for a lawsuit against them. 

    So yeah, a ‘wave’ of lawsuits no doubt. 

    • #17
    • February 19, 2020, at 9:14 PM PST
    • 2 likes
  18. Ontheleftcoast Member

    Steve C. (View Comment):

    Brian Watt (View Comment):

    Pony Convertible (View Comment):

    I think the Boy Scouts is a great organization. I was an assistant scout leader when my kids were in scouts. We did a lot of great things together. However when I was 11 or 12 years old, the scout master pulled out his junk and masturbated in front of us kids as we sat around the campfire.

    Problems exists. The scouts have good policies in place to prevent those problems (no adult is ever to be alone with a child, or children, except their own). If they didn’t enforce those policies, they deserve to suffer the consequences.

    Please tell me that the scoutmaster was reported to the authorities and arrested. What the heck did the other adults do?

    My brothers and I were all in the Boy Scouts. My father and my uncle were both assistant scoutmasters and a family friend and neighbor was our scoutmaster. All of the adults who served as assistant scoutmasters, if memory serves, were WWII vets and had a son or sons in the troop with the exception of one who was also a neighbor, happily married, an outdoorsman and who invited our family up to their mountain cabin where my brothers and I learned how to shoot rifles and handle the weapons responsibly. The disgusting incident like the one you described would have never happened. Had an adult done that in front of the boys, the man would have been pummeled and taken to the nearest police station.

    I concur. Most of our leaders were veterans of WWII or Korea. One of the dads was a Marine Raider who served on Guadalcanal and became an instructor in the Marine survival school. In all my time as a scout I never saw or heard of this type of behavior.

    You were fortunate. The scoutmaster of the troop I belonged to in the 1960s was a pedophile who died in prison. He was in much better control of himself than the man @ponyconvertible described.

     The parents in his troop loved him because he was so good with the boys. He was married. If he was gay, he was deeply closeted.

    Overall, my experience in the troop was pretty good though in hindsight there were some things that as an adult I would worry about if I heard of them in a troop.

    If I understand correctly, for many years the BSA had a secret list of problematic leaders. The policy was not to report the pedophiles to law enforcement.

     

     

    • #18
    • February 19, 2020, at 9:44 PM PST
    • 2 likes
  19. Bruce Caward Thatcher
    Bruce Caward Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    My times in Scouting, both Cub and Boy, were among my favorite memories and most educational and formative times of my life. I worked my way up through the troop, proudly aquiring merit badges and knowledge of subjects I would be clueless about today if I had not had the exposure through Scouting.

    I eventually became JASM of Troop 48 in Lansing, NY. I completed all of the requirements to complete my Eagle. I turned it down at the last second in what I thought was an honorable protest against the direction my troop took due to a change in scoutmasters, and what I thought was a lack of taking merit badges seriously. So I remain a Life Scout, with Brotherhood, Order of the Arrow.

    I have regretted that stupid, petulant action now for 40 years. It made sense at the time, but the years have shown me that pointless protest only leads to pointless failure. Meaningful ACTION at the time, meaningful discussion, leading perhaps to a positive change in things with the troop, would have been much more of a “community service project” than the one I did in my program.

    So I’m not an Eagle. But still I can list 10 things off the top of my head that I know how to do that I wouldn’t know if not for Scouting, things that after 40 years I can still remember learning, remember being there learning for the first time.

    I am happy to report that throughout all of the 10 years I was a scout (and the years before, that we went to family camp in the summer because my dad was the Scoutmaster), I was in the 99.996% of scouts who had a non-sexual experience. I have zero memory of sex between each other as an issue, a problem, a consideration, or even a serious topic of conversation. We talked about girls of course, but it was all just banter – nobody knew what they were talking about. It was innocent, and seems innocent to me now. 

    • #19
    • February 19, 2020, at 10:41 PM PST
    • 3 likes
  20. Peter Gøthgen Member
    Peter Gøthgen Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    JamesSalerno (View Comment):

    “Floods of sexual abuse allegations” raises red flags for me.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/08/06/boy-scouts-failed-stop-hundreds-previously-unknown-sexual-predators-lawsuit-alleges/

    I’m not going to say that nothing happened, but I’m suspicious. I get suspicious when stories start coming out decades, half a century, after the fact and then they’re reported as if it’s a sudden tidal wave. I get suspicious when the people reporting have an agenda. Mainstream media will go out of their way to dig up dirt on the Boy Scouts and go just as out of their way to hide the same dirt on Hollywood or the Democratic party.

    I have many fond memories of my time in scouts and it’s a shame to see what’s happened to them lately.

    This has to do with new laws such as the Child Victims Act in New York State removing statutes of limitations on such lawsuits. The problem is that statutes of limitations exist for a very good reason: human memory is crap, and time makes it even more so. Those accused can’t defend themselves because they either won’t remember, or are dead. It’s nothing more than a naked money grab on large organizations.

    • #20
    • February 20, 2020, at 4:58 AM PST
    • 6 likes
  21. Pony Convertible Member

    Brian Watt (View Comment):

    Pony Convertible (View Comment):

    I think the Boy Scouts is a great organization. I was an assistant scout leader when my kids were in scouts. We did a lot of great things together. However when I was 11 or 12 years old, the scout master pulled out his junk and masturbated in front of us kids as we sat around the campfire.

    Problems exists. The scouts have good policies in place to prevent those problems (no adult is ever to be alone with a child, or children, except their own). If they didn’t enforce those policies, they deserve to suffer the consequences.

    Please tell me that the scoutmaster was reported to the authorities and arrested. What the heck did the other adults do?

    My brothers and I were all in the Boy Scouts. My father and my uncle were both assistant scoutmasters and a family friend and neighbor was our scoutmaster. All of the adults who served as assistant scoutmasters, if memory serves, were WWII vets and had a son or sons in the troop with the exception of one who was also a neighbor, happily married, an outdoorsman and who invited our family up to their mountain cabin where my brothers and I learned how to shoot rifles and handle the weapons responsibly. The disgusting incident like the one you described would have never happened. Had an adult done that in front of the boys, the man would have been pummeled and taken to the nearest police station.

    The only other adult was asleep in his tent. All of us kids were afraid to say anything, and never did. That same leader would also go into the woods and smoke pot with the older kids. 

    This is bringing back a lot of memories I had mostly forgotten. Our Scout Master had a cargo van that had a sliding door on the side. The way we traveled was to set lawn chairs in the back for the kids to sit on, and tie the door open for ventilation (using the appropriate knots of course). All it would of taken was a hard left turn and half of us would have slide out the door. Another thing I remember was going to an Explorer swim meet in Indianapolis (The name Explorers was later changed to Venture Crew). In between swimming events I tagged along with some of the older kids as they “explored” the surrounding neighborhood. A guy saw the four of us walking down the sidewalk, strutted up to us and said, “You want to buy some acid. Two dollar hit, three five dollar.” We politely turned him away, but that expression “Two dollar hit, three five dollar” became a phrase we often used when joking around.

    Overall I wasn’t scarred by any of this. I just look back and laugh. I learned a lot in Boy Scouts, just not what my parents intended.

    • #21
    • February 20, 2020, at 5:22 AM PST
    • 3 likes
  22. Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Demo… Thatcher

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    People have a hard time with numbers. If you look at the numbers, I don’t see any evidence of a significant sex abuse problem in the Boy Scouts. My impression is that the same holds for the Catholic Church. Obviously, terrible things happen sometimes, but the rates seem to be extremely low.

    Here’s a quick calculation.

    A National Review article today reports that there have been 12,000 reports of sexual abuse of Scouts since 1944. That’s 75 years. The number of scouts seems to average around 4 million/year (based on a chart showing 3.8 million in 1950, 6.5 million in 1972, 4.8 million in 1998, and 2.3 million in 2016). 75 years times 4 million/year is 300 million Scout-years.

    Divide by 12,000 and you get the rate — 0.004%, or 4 per 100,000. The murder rate is about 5 per 100,000, and is at a record low (at least in recent history).

    Obviously, we’d like the rate to be zero. Keeping out homosexual adults would help, but the Scouts abandoned that simple rule.

    Relative frequency is not relevant. As you point out, murder is infrequent but there are still legal consequences for it. The questions are (1) was the organization aware, or should have been aware of, the behaviors and, if so, (2) did it act appropriately in response? The same questions that arose with the Catholic Church. 

    • #22
    • February 20, 2020, at 10:23 AM PST
    • 2 likes
  23. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member

    Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Demo… (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    People have a hard time with numbers. If you look at the numbers, I don’t see any evidence of a significant sex abuse problem in the Boy Scouts. My impression is that the same holds for the Catholic Church. Obviously, terrible things happen sometimes, but the rates seem to be extremely low.

    Here’s a quick calculation.

    A National Review article today reports that there have been 12,000 reports of sexual abuse of Scouts since 1944. That’s 75 years. The number of scouts seems to average around 4 million/year (based on a chart showing 3.8 million in 1950, 6.5 million in 1972, 4.8 million in 1998, and 2.3 million in 2016). 75 years times 4 million/year is 300 million Scout-years.

    Divide by 12,000 and you get the rate — 0.004%, or 4 per 100,000. The murder rate is about 5 per 100,000, and is at a record low (at least in recent history).

    Obviously, we’d like the rate to be zero. Keeping out homosexual adults would help, but the Scouts abandoned that simple rule.

    Relative frequency is not relevant. As you point out, murder is infrequent but there are still legal consequences for it. The questions are (1) was the organization aware, or should have been aware of, the behaviors and, if so, (2) did it act appropriately in response? The same questions that arose with the Catholic Church.

    I completely disagree. If the rate is extremely low, it is very difficult for the organization to either detect a problem, or prevent the problem.

    The Scouts actually implemented a youth protection program in 1988 (details here). Among other things, it prohibits any one-to-one contact between an adult leader and a Scout. This strikes me as absolutely absurd. One-on-one conversations, with an adult mentor, were one of the best features of Scouting when I was a Scout (late 1970s/early 1980s).

    I find these restrictions to be completely unreasonable, and they are put in place in order to prevent a problem that is virtually non-existent — less likely than being murdered, for crying out loud.

    Another thing to remember is that reports of abuse are not necessarily true.

    I’ve been a big fan of Scouting. I think that it is dead. Allowing homosexuality was a terrible decision, and allowing girls is another terrible decision. This organization is about teaching boys to be honorable, moral, upright men. I think that it has abandoned that mission, under pressure from the radical Left.

    • #23
    • February 20, 2020, at 10:32 AM PST
    • 2 likes
  24. Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Demo… Thatcher

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Demo… (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    People have a hard time with numbers. If you look at the numbers, I don’t see any evidence of a significant sex abuse problem in the Boy Scouts. My impression is that the same holds for the Catholic Church. Obviously, terrible things happen sometimes, but the rates seem to be extremely low.

    Here’s a quick calculation.

    A National Review article today reports that there have been 12,000 reports of sexual abuse of Scouts since 1944. That’s 75 years. The number of scouts seems to average around 4 million/year (based on a chart showing 3.8 million in 1950, 6.5 million in 1972, 4.8 million in 1998, and 2.3 million in 2016). 75 years times 4 million/year is 300 million Scout-years.

    Divide by 12,000 and you get the rate — 0.004%, or 4 per 100,000. The murder rate is about 5 per 100,000, and is at a record low (at least in recent history).

    Obviously, we’d like the rate to be zero. Keeping out homosexual adults would help, but the Scouts abandoned that simple rule.

    Relative frequency is not relevant. As you point out, murder is infrequent but there are still legal consequences for it. The questions are (1) was the organization aware, or should have been aware of, the behaviors and, if so, (2) did it act appropriately in response? The same questions that arose with the Catholic Church.

    I completely disagree. If the rate is extremely low, it is very difficult for the organization to either detect a problem, or prevent the problem.

    The Scouts actually implemented a youth protection program in 1988 (details here).

    We actually agree on that. My first question goes to the awareness of the organization.

    • #24
    • February 20, 2020, at 10:33 AM PST
    • 2 likes
  25. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member

    Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Demo… (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Demo… (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    People have a hard time with numbers. If you look at the numbers, I don’t see any evidence of a significant sex abuse problem in the Boy Scouts. My impression is that the same holds for the Catholic Church. Obviously, terrible things happen sometimes, but the rates seem to be extremely low.

    Here’s a quick calculation.

    A National Review article today reports that there have been 12,000 reports of sexual abuse of Scouts since 1944. That’s 75 years. The number of scouts seems to average around 4 million/year (based on a chart showing 3.8 million in 1950, 6.5 million in 1972, 4.8 million in 1998, and 2.3 million in 2016). 75 years times 4 million/year is 300 million Scout-years.

    Divide by 12,000 and you get the rate — 0.004%, or 4 per 100,000. The murder rate is about 5 per 100,000, and is at a record low (at least in recent history).

    Obviously, we’d like the rate to be zero. Keeping out homosexual adults would help, but the Scouts abandoned that simple rule.

    Relative frequency is not relevant. As you point out, murder is infrequent but there are still legal consequences for it. The questions are (1) was the organization aware, or should have been aware of, the behaviors and, if so, (2) did it act appropriately in response? The same questions that arose with the Catholic Church.

    I completely disagree. If the rate is extremely low, it is very difficult for the organization to either detect a problem, or prevent the problem.

    The Scouts actually implemented a youth protection program in 1988 (details here).

    We actually agree on that. My first question goes to the awareness of the organization.

    Sorry, you missed part of my comment, which I inadvertently posted and then edited.

    We’re not connecting on the “awareness of the organization” issue. What are they supposed to be aware of? That bad things occasionally occur, at a frequency less likely than murder?

    If you’re concerned about individual cases — say a Scoutmaster who was left in place despite an allegation of abuse — that could be relevant to an individual case.

    Notice the quote above by Michael (#16 above), quoting the NR article reporting about 12,000 alleged victims and about 8,000 alleged perpetrators. That’s only 1.5 offenses per alleged perpetrator, which does not suggest a big problem with repeat offenders.

    • #25
    • February 20, 2020, at 10:44 AM PST
    • 2 likes
  26. Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Demo… Thatcher

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Demo… (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Demo… (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    People have a hard time with numbers. If you look at the numbers, I don’t see any evidence of a significant sex abuse problem in the Boy Scouts. My impression is that the same holds for the Catholic Church. Obviously, terrible things happen sometimes, but the rates seem to be extremely low.

    Here’s a quick calculation.

    A National Review article today reports that there have been 12,000 reports of sexual abuse of Scouts since 1944. That’s 75 years. The number of scouts seems to average around 4 million/year (based on a chart showing 3.8 million in 1950, 6.5 million in 1972, 4.8 million in 1998, and 2.3 million in 2016). 75 years times 4 million/year is 300 million Scout-years.

    Divide by 12,000 and you get the rate — 0.004%, or 4 per 100,000. The murder rate is about 5 per 100,000, and is at a record low (at least in recent history).

    Obviously, we’d like the rate to be zero. Keeping out homosexual adults would help, but the Scouts abandoned that simple rule.

    Relative frequency is not relevant. As you point out, murder is infrequent but there are still legal consequences for it. The questions are (1) was the organization aware, or should have been aware of, the behaviors and, if so, (2) did it act appropriately in response? The same questions that arose with the Catholic Church.

    I completely disagree. If the rate is extremely low, it is very difficult for the organization to either detect a problem, or prevent the problem.

    The Scouts actually implemented a youth protection program in 1988 (details here).

    We actually agree on that. My first question goes to the awareness of the organization.

    Sorry, you missed part of my comment, which I inadvertently posted and then edited.

    We’re not connecting on the “awareness of the organization” issue. What are they supposed to be aware of? That bad things occasionally occur, at a frequency less likely than murder?

    If you’re concerned about individual cases — say a Scoutmaster who was left in place despite an allegation of abuse — that could be relevant to an individual case.

    Notice the quote above by Michael (#16 above), quoting the NR article reporting about 12,000 alleged victims and about 8,000 alleged perpetrators. That’s only 1.5 offenses per alleged perpetrator, which does not suggest a big problem with repeat offenders.

    It is about specific incidents. If they came to the attention of organization leadership, or if they discouraged bringing such incidents to their attention that is relevant.

    • #26
    • February 20, 2020, at 10:56 AM PST
    • 1 like