My Heart Is Still Aching

 

Twenty-five years ago, I was invited by a rabbi whom I’d interviewed for a book I was writing, to give a talk to a group of student rabbis and cantors. The students were attending a college in L.A. for their training, and I was invited to speak to them because I was a Jew who had essentially left my religion behind and became a Zen Buddhist. The rabbi who invited me thought I could shed some light on the reasons Jews were abandoning Judaism.

At the end of my talk (where I basically told my own story), we opened the floor for questions. Most people were kind and curious and, of course, disappointed that I wasn’t actively engaged in Judaism. I thought I’d made my own situation clear by explaining that I’d never connected with my heritage in a deep way and found that Zen fulfilled many of my hopes for a spiritual life.

At one point, a young man made the following statement: “It sounds to me as if you are a self-hating Jew.” He said it calmly with no rancor. I was very surprised at his comment, and responded equally as calmly and said that I thought his observation was incorrect, since I hadn’t left Judaism in anger, but because I hadn’t connected with it in a deep and meaningful way. I blamed no one for that outcome.

The next comment that surprised me was from one of the teachers, a rabbi, who said, “If you and I sat down to visit over a cup of coffee, you’d come back.” This time I was surprised at what I perceived as his arrogance and condescension. I just smiled and asked if there were any other questions from the group. In spite of the group’s overall receptivity, I had clearly hit a nerve with my reflections.

* * * * *

Fast forward 25 years. I was invited by a neighbor/friend who belongs to a local Hadassah chapter (Jewish woman’s group) to give a similar talk: she asked me to speak about my spiritual journey. Although I’m a public speaker, I’d never been asked to provide an overall view of my spiritual history, particularly since I’d returned to Judaism. I was touched that she asked me, and she also invited me to bring my book for sale. (@iwe and I also have a second book that has just been published; he’ll be telling you more about it soon.) The talk is this afternoon and I will let you know about the experience later.

* * * * *

The talk went well. Several people commented about how much they enjoyed and appreciated it. Afterward, I stayed to sell books and chat some more. And then a woman came up with her tragic story.

She said she didn’t believe in G-d. Her daughter died at a very young age, and G-d let her die, since G-d controls everything. In that moment, I just wanted to hug her and said how sorry I was. But I felt compelled to tell her quietly that G-d doesn’t control everything. Her rabbi had told her that He did. And what about the Holocaust, she asked. I asked her if she’d ever heard of “tzimtzum.” She hadn’t. I explained my understanding of tzimtzum was that G-d had pulled back his limitlessness from the world, so that he could create, so that we could have free will, and so natural phenomena (as painful as they may be) could take their course. G-d rarely intervenes. I could see her wrestling with my comments, so I let it go. I did add that if she ever wanted to talk about the idea that G-d doesn’t control everything, I hoped she’d call me.

My heart is still aching for her.

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  1. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Zafar (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    What makes you think laying eggs wouldn’t hurt as much, or more? Especially if they’re hard!

    And then hatching them….

    Ha!  Would they then have to sit on the eggs for nine months until they hatched?  I guess there would then be complaints about the drudgery of not being able to be free and wander about.  Oh the patriarchy…lol.  

    • #31
  2. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    OkieSailor (View Comment):

    I’m not a theologian just a skeptic who chooses to believe that God exists so take this with a grain of salt.
    It seems to me the question people in sorrow are really asking is, “Why doesn’t God do what I would do if I were as powerful as He is?” My answer, for my self, never vocalized, is, “Because He is not me.” I am not God and you should be quite glad I’m not because if I were things would be really screwed up. I’m not Omnipotent nor Omniscient, so who am I to judge the One who is?
    Furthermore, the One who lets bad things happen also created a planet designed to meet my every need, that’s pretty awesome even if He never did anything else for me which of course He has done.

    I don’t mean this to be unfeeling but it’s just how I reconcile what seems to many to be irreconcilable.

    Exactly!  Great comment.

    • #32
  3. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    SkipSul (View Comment):
    Doubts, even ones stemming from anger or sorrow or disappointment, are natural, but all too often we hear that doubts need to be shunted aside. “Just have faith!” we hear, as though faith is somehow nothing more than the absence of doubt, and if we have doubts then we must be lacking in faith, or failing to believe. It’s nonsense, but it’s the sort of nonsense that will drive people out.

    I completely agree, @skipsul. We can see in the Torah plenty of evidence for questioning or challenging G-d–Abraham, Jacob, Moses, as examples. I believe G-d wants us to argue and question. The end result can often be the deepening of our faith and our relationship with Him.

    • #33
  4. SkipSul Inactive
    SkipSul
    @skipsul

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):
    Doubts, even ones stemming from anger or sorrow or disappointment, are natural, but all too often we hear that doubts need to be shunted aside. “Just have faith!” we hear, as though faith is somehow nothing more than the absence of doubt, and if we have doubts then we must be lacking in faith, or failing to believe. It’s nonsense, but it’s the sort of nonsense that will drive people out.

    I completely agree, @skipsul. We can see in the Torah plenty of evidence for questioning or challenging G-d–Abraham, Jacob, Moses, as examples. I believe G-d wants us to argue and question. The end result can often be the deepening of our faith and our relationship with Him.

    My priest is fond of saying “the kingdom of heaven has to be taken by force.”  We have to be active, we have to pursue.

    • #34
  5. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):
    Doubts, even ones stemming from anger or sorrow or disappointment, are natural, but all too often we hear that doubts need to be shunted aside. “Just have faith!” we hear, as though faith is somehow nothing more than the absence of doubt, and if we have doubts then we must be lacking in faith, or failing to believe. It’s nonsense, but it’s the sort of nonsense that will drive people out.

    I completely agree, @skipsul. We can see in the Torah plenty of evidence for questioning or challenging G-d–Abraham, Jacob, Moses, as examples. I believe G-d wants us to argue and question. The end result can often be the deepening of our faith and our relationship with Him.

    You bring up an observation I’ve had as a distinction between Judaism and Christianity.  We both look at God as a Father but it seems to me that there is a slight distinction in that relationship.  Christians tend to look at God as a child looks at his father while Jews look at God more as an adult looks at his father.  Adults question their parents, argue with their parents, and can tend to disagree with their parents.  Children, and I’m thinking below seven years old, will accept the advice of their parents, despite disobeying, may argue back but they don’t pursue it, and accept it as correct much more readily.  I don’t know if that’s theologically sound, either from Christian or Jewish points of view, but it has been my observation both from reading the Old and New Testaments and from my observation of Jews (I have in-laws) and Christians.

    If that is true, the Jewish relationship seems more mature, but it comes with perils.  It seems to me that Jews, because they so readily question God, fall away from their faith easier.  Personally I love the way Job questions and argues with God.  There is nothing like it in the New Testament.  Again this is only my speculation and anecdotal observation.

    • #35
  6. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Manny (View Comment):
    If that is true, the Jewish relationship seems more mature, but it comes with perils. It seems to me that Jews, because they so readily question God, fall away from their faith easier. Personally I love the way Job questions and argues with God. There is nothing like it in the New Testament. Again this is only my speculation and anecdotal observation.

    Very interesting observations, @manny! I don’t know if your comment about maturity in the two religions as they relate to G-d are correct, but I’d love to know what others think. Thanks!

    • #36
  7. GrannyDude Member
    GrannyDude
    @GrannyDude

    Zafar (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    What makes you think laying eggs wouldn’t hurt as much, or more? Especially if they’re hard!

    And then hatching them….

    The author and naturalist Gerald Durrell told a story in one of his books in which he, as a youngster, found himself explaining the reproduction of snails to his mother. 

    As he had discovered—his ten-year-old nose a fascinated six inches from the process, snail mating can have some pretty spectacular features: 

    In the final stage of courtship and before mating, some species use a unique weapon: the “love darts.” No, it is not a metaphor, it is a structure of calcium or chitin that only sexually mature snails have, and usually that have mated more than once. Seen in detail, they indeed resemble pointed darts.

    When both are close enough and touch their genitals, they shoot their love darts. Darts are not fired away but are a contact shot. Usually, the two snails shoot the structures, and they pierce the skin of the other so that they are united. The dangerous thing about this is that sometimes darts can damage an internal organ or go through the body and exit on the other side.

    The function of love darts is not transferring sperm but is a form of sexual selection, and observations concluded that garden snails (Helix aspersa) could increase their reproductive success. The mucus that covers a dart contains a type of hormones capable of increasing the chances of success to have offspring.

    Gerald Durrell had actually witnessed the exchange of love darts. Astounded, he asked his adult friend and mentor Theodore  if he had been hallucinating, and Theodore responded with more or less what I’ve posted above. Of course young Gerry had to tell his mom about it. At the conclusion of the exercise, he tells her, the mother snail (or “parent” snail, since snails can be a bit gender-fluid, kind of like Yalies) lays her eggs and buries them in some damp soil, then glides away.

    Gerald’s mother, of course, says “I wish I could’ve buried you in some damp soil…”   

     

     

    • #37
  8. OkieSailor Member
    OkieSailor
    @OkieSailor

    Manny (View Comment):
    If that is true, the Jewish relationship seems more mature, but it comes with perils. It seems to me that Jews, because they so readily question God, fall away from their faith easier. Personally I love the way Job questions and argues with God. There is nothing like it in the New Testament. Again this is only my speculation and anecdotal observation.

    Job did question God but God asked him who he was to think he could correct the Omnipotent One. (Can you hook Levithan?) I see that as having corrected Job’s understanding. And if anyone in the OT had good reason to question his circumstances it was Job a righteous man who was put through the mill for what seemed to him no good reason. The book of Job tells us that God had a good reason it just wasn’t revealed to Job, in fact we’re not told he ever knew the reason this side of eternity. To us that seems unfair but if God is Sovereign He can not ever be unfair since whatever He chooses is the Right(eous) choice.  To accept that is to accept His Sovereignty which takes me off the Throne, something I’ve always had problems accepting since I like to be in charge. But I know I need to do so.

    Abraham lived later in time that Job (I think I have that right) and he argued with God, successfully about the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, ultimately to no avail but still. I kind of see that as I would view a young person trying to convince me that I’m wrong about some thing, letting them try things for themselves and helping them survive the consequences. Problems are often more instructive than success. Parents who shield their kids from every consequence do them no favors—does that apply to God’s Fatherhood also?

    • #38
  9. SkipSul Inactive
    SkipSul
    @skipsul

    Manny (View Comment):
    You bring up an observation I’ve had as a distinction between Judaism and Christianity. We both look at God as a Father but it seems to me that there is a slight distinction in that relationship. Christians tend to look at God as a child looks at his father while Jews look at God more as an adult looks at his father.

    I’m not sure this is strictly true across denominations.  Certainly within some the theology is rather (to borrow a phrase) “Old Testament” – meaning stern, uncompromising, and wrathful.  A lot of modern Christianity seems to veer into the opposite extreme where things like divine justice are just not talked about (wouldn’t want to make people feel uncomfortable, after all), and that doesn’t even touch on Liberal Christianity where it seems GD exists only as an affirmation of themselves – GD made in man’s image – or if they view GD in any parental way at all, it is only as a spoiled child views a rich parent – GD the vending machine (prosperity gospelism).

    Within Orthodox Christianity one finds a significant overlap with Judaism in that we understand that GD wants relationship with us, His creation, not strictly as unquestioning children, but in dialog.  Obviously there are still significant differences.

     

    • #39
  10. GrannyDude Member
    GrannyDude
    @GrannyDude

    Manny (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):
    Doubts, even ones stemming from anger or sorrow or disappointment, are natural, but all too often we hear that doubts need to be shunted aside. “Just have faith!” we hear, as though faith is somehow nothing more than the absence of doubt, and if we have doubts then we must be lacking in faith, or failing to believe. It’s nonsense, but it’s the sort of nonsense that will drive people out.

    I completely agree, @skipsul. We can see in the Torah plenty of evidence for questioning or challenging G-d–Abraham, Jacob, Moses, as examples. I believe G-d wants us to argue and question. The end result can often be the deepening of our faith and our relationship with Him.

    You bring up an observation I’ve had as a distinction between Judaism and Christianity. We both look at God as a Father but it seems to me that there is a slight distinction in that relationship. Christians tend to look at God as a child looks at his father while Jews look at God more as an adult looks at his father. Adults question their parents, argue with their parents, and can tend to disagree with their parents. Children, and I’m thinking below seven years old, will accept the advice of their parents, despite disobeying, may argue back but they don’t pursue it, and accept it as correct much more readily. I don’t know if that’s theologically sound, either from Christian or Jewish points of view, but it has been my observation both from reading the Old and New Testaments and from my observation of Jews (I have in-laws) and Christians.

    If that is true, the Jewish relationship seems more mature, but it comes with perils. It seems to me that Jews, because they so readily question God, fall away from their faith easier. Personally I love the way Job questions and argues with God. There is nothing like it in the New Testament. Again this is only my speculation and anecdotal observation.

    Cool! 

    I gave a sermon last weekend based on Matthew 5:13-20, from the Sermon on the Mount.

    You are the salt of the earth…but if salt has lost its taste, how can its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

    You are the light of the world. A city built on a hill cannot be hid. No one after lighting a lamp puts it under a bushel, but on the lamp stand where it gives light to all the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others so they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven.

    Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I tell you , until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter will pass from the law until all has been accomplished.  Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Scholars believe (we clergy like that phrase, and intone it sonorously) the SOTM isn’t a faithful copy of a single sermon,  but is, rather, a compilation of the sermons Jesus offered over time. So the sense of disconnect between the first part of the reading (bold) and the second part could be explained by a quirky or sloppy editor.

    The editors (redactors) of the NT are generally pretty purposeful, however, and from the reader’s perspective, these are placed in conjunction and thus have a relationship with one another. Since the canon includes the Hebrew scriptures, the Gospels contain frequent reminders to maintain that relationship as well. I wish I’d had Manny’s insight before giving what wasn’t one of my better sermons (mostly grumping about hypocrisy, as I unhappily recall). 

    If, a children’s book illustrator would have fun with the first part of the passage,  painting bright pictures of cities on pretty hilltops and lamps shining on lamp stands, the second invites an adult to recall (or, in the case of the Bible reader, revisit) the rules.   

    It would’ve been fun to play with the idea of child and grown-up relationships with God—and maybe the necessity of both?

    • #40
  11. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):
    You bring up an observation I’ve had as a distinction between Judaism and Christianity. We both look at God as a Father but it seems to me that there is a slight distinction in that relationship. Christians tend to look at God as a child looks at his father while Jews look at God more as an adult looks at his father.

    I’m not sure this is strictly true across denominations. Certainly within some the theology is rather (to borrow a phrase) “Old Testament” – meaning stern, uncompromising, and wrathful. A lot of modern Christianity seems to veer into the opposite extreme where things like divine justice are just not talked about (wouldn’t want to make people feel uncomfortable, after all), and that doesn’t even touch on Liberal Christianity where it seems GD exists only as an affirmation of themselves – GD made in man’s image – or if they view GD in any parental way at all, it is only as a spoiled child views a rich parent – GD the vending machine (prosperity gospelism).

    Within Orthodox Christianity one finds a significant overlap with Judaism in that we understand that GD wants relationship with us, His creation, not strictly as unquestioning children, but in dialog. Obviously there are still significant differences.

     

    We have the same in Catholicism.  We are told to question but I read a lot of Catholic writing I never see anything of any serious essay or book where a theologian challenges God.  I sit in discussions with devout people and people in religious orders and it never goes here.  I think this passage and others like it in the NT defines Christian’s relationship with God:

    2 He [Jesus] called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.  -Matt18:2-4

    That’s not the only such passage.  As to Job, God allows him to question and complain.  In the end, God has the final word and Job has to accept it, but Job goes a long way before God shuts him down.  As I’ve said, I have noticed in my personal experiences, Jews doing this much more than Christians.  

    • #41
  12. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    GrannyDude (View Comment):
    I wish I’d had Manny’s insight before giving what wasn’t one of my better sermons (mostly grumping about hypocrisy, as I unhappily recall). 

    You’re very kind.  As it happens, my wife is Jewish and while she’s not religious at all I do meet members of her family and have attended Jewish religious events at synagogue (Bar Mitzvas, weddings, and funerals).  Perhaps I got that insight from observation.

    • #42
  13. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    SkipSul (View Comment):
    Within Orthodox Christianity one finds a significant overlap with Judaism in that we understand that GD wants relationship with us, His creation, not strictly as unquestioning children, but in dialog. Obviously there are still significant differences.

    Some Christians also ignore that G-d shows us love a lot more than his wrath. Just sayin’. . .

    • #43
  14. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    GrannyDude (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):
    Doubts, even ones stemming from anger or sorrow or disappointment, are natural, but all too often we hear that doubts need to be shunted aside. “Just have faith!” we hear, as though faith is somehow nothing more than the absence of doubt, and if we have doubts then we must be lacking in faith, or failing to believe. It’s nonsense, but it’s the sort of nonsense that will drive people out.

    I completely agree, @skipsul. We can see in the Torah plenty of evidence for questioning or challenging G-d–Abraham, Jacob, Moses, as examples. I believe G-d wants us to argue and question. The end result can often be the deepening of our faith and our relationship with Him.

    You bring up an observation I’ve had as a distinction between Judaism and Christianity. We both look at God as a Father but it seems to me that there is a slight distinction in that relationship. Christians tend to look at God as a child looks at his father while Jews look at God more as an adult looks at his father. Adults question their parents, argue with their parents, and can tend to disagree with their parents. Children, and I’m thinking below seven years old, will accept the advice of their parents, despite disobeying, may argue back but they don’t pursue it, and accept it as correct much more readily. I don’t know if that’s theologically sound, either from Christian or Jewish points of view, but it has been my observation both from reading the Old and New Testaments and from my observation of Jews (I have in-laws) and Christians.

    If that is true, the Jewish relationship seems more mature, but it comes with perils. It seems to me that Jews, because they so readily question God, fall away from their faith easier. Personally I love the way Job questions and argues with God. There is nothing like it in the New Testament. Again this is only my speculation and anecdotal observation.

    Cool!

    I gave a sermon last weekend based on Matthew 5:13-20, from the Sermon on the Mount.

    You are the salt of the earth…but if salt has lost its taste, how can its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

    You are the light of the world. A city built on a hill cannot be hid. No one after lighting a lamp puts it under a bushel, but on the lamp stand where it gives light to all the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others so they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven.

    Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I tell you , until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter will pass from the law until all has been accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Scholars believe (we clergy like that phrase, and intone it sonorously) the SOTM isn’t a faithful copy of a single sermon, but is, rather, a compilation of the sermons Jesus offered over time. So the sense of disconnect between the first part of the reading (bold) and the second part could be explained by a quirky or sloppy editor.

    The editors (redactors) of the NT are generally pretty purposeful, however, and from the reader’s perspective, these are placed in conjunction and thus have a relationship with one another. Since the canon includes the Hebrew scriptures, the Gospels contain frequent reminders to maintain that relationship as well. I wish I’d had Manny’s insight before giving what wasn’t one of my better sermons (mostly grumping about hypocrisy, as I unhappily recall).

    If, a children’s book illustrator would have fun with the first part of the passage, painting bright pictures of cities on pretty hilltops and lamps shining on lamp stands, the second invites an adult to recall (or, in the case of the Bible reader, revisit) the rules.

    It would’ve been fun to play with the idea of child and grown-up relationships with God—and maybe the necessity of both?

    Sounds like a great post!

    • #44
  15. SkipSul Inactive
    SkipSul
    @skipsul

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):
    Within Orthodox Christianity one finds a significant overlap with Judaism in that we understand that GD wants relationship with us, His creation, not strictly as unquestioning children, but in dialog. Obviously there are still significant differences.

    Some Christians also ignore that G-d shows us love a lot more than his wrath. Just sayin’. . .

    Indeed, and that sort of thinking is abhorrent in the Orthodox world.  Jonathan Edwards’ Sinners in the hands of an Angry GD is something you would never hear.

    • #45
  16. Bryan McAllister Inactive
    Bryan McAllister
    @bmcallis

    OkieSailor (View Comment):
    It seems to me the question people in sorrow are really asking is, “Why doesn’t God do what I would do if I were as powerful as He is?” My answer, for my self, never vocalized, is, “Because He is not me.” I am not God and you should be quite glad I’m not because if I were things would be really screwed up. I’m not Omnipotent nor Omniscient, so who am I to judge the One who is?
    Furthermore, the One who lets bad things happen also created a planet designed to meet my every need, that’s pretty awesome even if He never did anything else for me which of course He has done.

    And, in that context, from my perspective it becomes all the more important that we – as fellow inhabitants of this Earth – do our best to reach out to the hands that hang down, strengthen the feeble knees, rejoice with those who celebrate, and mourn with those who sorrow.  As Susan has done – to stand by and to be a listening ear for each other, as we proceed through challenging times.  Irrespective of one’s faith, there is the commonality of our shared humanity.

    • #46
  17. kedavis Coolidge
    kedavis
    @kedavis

    Manny (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    What makes you think laying eggs wouldn’t hurt as much, or more? Especially if they’re hard!

    And then hatching them….

    Ha! Would they then have to sit on the eggs for nine months until they hatched? I guess there would then be complaints about the drudgery of not being able to be free and wander about. Oh the patriarchy…lol.

    I suppose males could help with the hatching.  Unless there were some other biological reason that couldn’t work.

    • #47
  18. OkieSailor Member
    OkieSailor
    @OkieSailor

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    What makes you think laying eggs wouldn’t hurt as much, or more? Especially if they’re hard!

    And then hatching them….

    Ha! Would they then have to sit on the eggs for nine months until they hatched? I guess there would then be complaints about the drudgery of not being able to be free and wander about. Oh the patriarchy…lol.

    I suppose males could help with the hatching. Unless there were some other biological reason that couldn’t work.

    Someone has to forage while the egg sitting is going on. I’m not sure the birds have it too much better ;>)

    • #48
  19. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    What makes you think laying eggs wouldn’t hurt as much, or more? Especially if they’re hard!

    And then hatching them….

    Ha! Would they then have to sit on the eggs for nine months until they hatched? I guess there would then be complaints about the drudgery of not being able to be free and wander about. Oh the patriarchy…lol.

    I suppose males could help with the hatching. Unless there were some other biological reason that couldn’t work.

    Don’t penguin mates take turns?

    • #49
  20. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    Skyler (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):
    told her that if a god were part of the “design” then damn it for being so incompetent to make child birth so painful. I still feel that way and even were there a god, which of course there isn’t, I do not wish to be associated with such gross incompetence.

    So given the trauma that childbirth causes to a woman, what would you have recommended G-d provide instead, @skyler? G-d doesn’t exist to make our lives easier; He exists to provide us comfort when we are in those difficult times. Maybe G-d should have had women lay eggs?

    Fixed it for you! :)

    I wouldn’t recommend it provide anything because it doesn’t exist. Wishing it were so does not make it so. It would be nice if there were a reward for being a good person, beyond simple self-respect; it would be nice if after we died we still existed in some happy pleasure land. But as the Spartans say, “If.”

    You seem very (and I believe I am using the term correctly) evangelical in your atheism. What’s it to you anyway? If you are so comfortable in your disbelief, why do you feel compelled to intrude? Not like these sorts of posts are doing you any harm.

    Thanks! Nor are mine harming you.

    Your words probably caused a slight amount of emotional harm to the nurse in question, who was simply trying to share the empathetic joy that presumably led her to her chosen profession.  

    I privately thought that family and friends referring to my sister’s liver transplant as a ‘miracle from God’ was slightly disrespectful of both the donor, the poor man who was rejected as a viable candidate and thereby enabled her to jump ahead of thousands of people ahead of her on the list, as well as the memory of my young nephew who lacked anything that could be construed as ‘divine intervention’ when his undiagnosed brain aneurysm ruptured.  I decided not to inflict my cognitive dissonance on the rest of my family, who were simply expressing their immediate joy at our good fortune without dwelling on the negative, as is my wont.

    Sometimes, its best to silently disagree with something and simply appreciate where its coming from.

    • #50
  21. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    OkieSailor (View Comment):

    I’m not a theologian just a skeptic who chooses to believe that God exists so take this with a grain of salt.
    It seems to me the question people in sorrow are really asking is, “Why doesn’t God do what I would do if I were as powerful as He is?” My answer, for my self, never vocalized, is, “Because He is not me.” I am not God and you should be quite glad I’m not because if I were things would be really screwed up. I’m not Omnipotent nor Omniscient, so who am I to judge the One who is?

    People have made many promises on His behalf. It is on the basis of these promises, however founded or unfounded, that people judge God. 

    • #51
  22. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    lowtech redneck (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Skyler (View Comment):
    told her that if a god were part of the “design” then damn it for being so incompetent to make child birth so painful. I still feel that way and even were there a god, which of course there isn’t, I do not wish to be associated with such gross incompetence.

    So given the trauma that childbirth causes to a woman, what would you have recommended G-d provide instead, @skyler? G-d doesn’t exist to make our lives easier; He exists to provide us comfort when we are in those difficult times. Maybe G-d should have had women lay eggs?

    Fixed it for you! :)

    I wouldn’t recommend it provide anything because it doesn’t exist. Wishing it were so does not make it so. It would be nice if there were a reward for being a good person, beyond simple self-respect; it would be nice if after we died we still existed in some happy pleasure land. But as the Spartans say, “If.”

    You seem very (and I believe I am using the term correctly) evangelical in your atheism. What’s it to you anyway? If you are so comfortable in your disbelief, why do you feel compelled to intrude? Not like these sorts of posts are doing you any harm.

    Thanks! Nor are mine harming you.

    Your words probably caused a slight amount of emotional harm to the nurse in question, who was simply trying to share the empathetic joy that presumably led her to her chosen profession.

    I privately thought that family and friends referring to my sister’s liver transplant as a ‘miracle from God’ was slightly disrespectful of both the donor, the poor man who was rejected as a viable candidate and thereby enabled her to jump ahead of thousands of people ahead of her on the list, as well as the memory of my young nephew who lacked anything that could be construed as ‘divine intervention’ when his undiagnosed brain aneurysm ruptured. I decided not to inflict my cognitive dissonance on the rest of my family, who were simply expressing their immediate joy at our good fortune without dwelling on the negative, as is my wont.

    Sometimes, its best to silently disagree with something and simply appreciate where its coming from.

    An Atheist, a Vegan and a Crossfitter enter a Bar. I know, because they all told me.

    I am amused when anyone of faith, or active non-faith, feel compelled to counter another’s profound statement. It says nothing at all about the other person, and everything about the person making the counter. If someone is secure in his or her faith or non-faith, there is no reason to say anything at all. 

    I too wonder at the whole “gift from God” but as you point out, not the time to go into it. 

    • #52
  23. Django Member
    Django
    @Django

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    I run into people who want to blame G-d when tragedy happens, but this loss was so close to home for this woman. To have spent her whole life feeling separate from G-d due to her loss, might be understandable by some, but it was painful to observe. Thanks @jennastocker.

    I have no idea if God exists, and I care less about the question as I age. However, it does seem to me that if I can’t blame Him for the tragedies in life, I have no obligation to thank Him for any good fortune in life.

    As for as the dangers in the world, the only convincing explanation I’ve heard came from C. S. Lewis. In a dangerous world, moral judgments come to a point. They aren’t just intellectual exercises such as one would encounter in a freshman philosophy class.

    • #53
  24. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    I too wonder at the whole “gift from God” but as you point out, not the time to go into it. 

    @bryangstephens, I have no objection to your asking the question here, or you can also make a post. Whichever you choose. I won’t be super active because the Sabbath is imminent.

    • #54
  25. Chris Hutchinson Coolidge
    Chris Hutchinson
    @chrishutch13

    Manny (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    I’m not sure this is strictly true across denominations. Certainly within some the theology is rather (to borrow a phrase) “Old Testament” – meaning stern, uncompromising, and wrathful. A lot of modern Christianity seems to veer into the opposite extreme where things like divine justice are just not talked about (wouldn’t want to make people feel uncomfortable, after all), and that doesn’t even touch on Liberal Christianity where it seems GD exists only as an affirmation of themselves – GD made in man’s image – or if they view GD in any parental way at all, it is only as a spoiled child views a rich parent – GD the vending machine (prosperity gospelism).

    Within Orthodox Christianity one finds a significant overlap with Judaism in that we understand that GD wants relationship with us, His creation, not strictly as unquestioning children, but in dialog. Obviously there are still significant differences.

     

    We have the same in Catholicism. We are told to question but I read a lot of Catholic writing I never see anything of any serious essay or book where a theologian challenges God. I sit in discussions with devout people and people in religious orders and it never goes here. I think this passage and others like it in the NT defines Christian’s relationship with God:

    2 He [Jesus] called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. -Matt18:2-4

    That’s not the only such passage. As to Job, God allows him to question and complain. In the end, God has the final word and Job has to accept it, but Job goes a long way before God shuts him down. As I’ve said, I have noticed in my personal experiences, Jews doing this much more than Christians.

    I’m so surprised no one has mentioned Thomas in this exchange. I find his interactions with Jesus (not only after He’s risen) and Jesus’ responses to be beautiful examples of the emotional complexity of humans and us being allowed to question (i.e. show a temporary lack of faith). John 14:6-7 are some of the most profound verses in a book choke full of profound words. It’s an answer to Thomas’ question. Throughout the New Testament, I see Jesus’ understanding and patience with the Apostles’ lack of faith as a strong indicator God is fine with us being skeptical at times and questioning. Not to mention, despite coming across a few Christians here and there who dismiss the Old Testament, the lessons we take from Jacob, Gideon or Job are as much for us Christians as for Jews.    

    • #55
  26. Chris Hutchinson Coolidge
    Chris Hutchinson
    @chrishutch13

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    “Why is God willing to let bad things happen to good people?”. It is a hard question. As a loving father, I would never let bad things happen to my kids if I could avoid it.

    Bryan, I just commented that I personally believe God is fine with us questioning Him. I think it is quite healthy to struggle with our faith and wrestle with God. I’ll be honest though, I’ve never really understood this line of argument. I absolutely do let bad things happen with my kids even when I could have easily reached in and taken them out of a particular situation. Perhaps, I’m just a poor father. I most definitely have been wrong in my calculations. The lesson hasn’t always been worth the suffering. But I don’t think I’ve always been wrong and I don’t believe God’s calculations ever are.

    • #56
  27. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    An Atheist, a Vegan and a Crossfitter enter a Bar. I know, because they all told me.

    I am amused when anyone of faith, or active non-faith, feel compelled to counter another’s profound statement. It says nothing at all about the other person, and everything about the person making the counter. If someone is secure in his or her faith or non-faith, there is no reason to say anything at all.

    I too wonder at the whole “gift from God” but as you point out, not the time to go into it.

    For my part, I mention it on comments because I want Christians to consider the source. 

    • #57
  28. CarolJoy, Above Top Secret Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Above Top Secret
    @CarolJoy

    Zafar (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    kedavis (View Comment):

    What makes you think laying eggs wouldn’t hurt as much, or more? Especially if they’re hard!

    And then hatching them….

    Ha! Would they then have to sit on the eggs for nine months until they hatched? I guess there would then be complaints about the drudgery of not being able to be free and wander about. Oh the patriarchy…lol.

    I suppose males could help with the hatching. Unless there were some other biological reason that couldn’t work.

    Don’t penguin mates take turns?

    I think the male penguins stay in charge of the eggs while the female penguins march off to a different area to find food and bring it back. This happens during the dead of the Antarctic winter, not a pleasant time or place to be filling in on mom’s child care.

    I forget how long the males are taking care of the eggs. But I remember one interesting answer to a long discussed puzzle: how does mom march back to dad after being months away. And then she rather easily finds him in the midst of 100,000 other birds to boot. These critters all   pretty much look alike. So how does she do it?

    It is now believed that the birds have iridescent patterns across their chests, each and every one completely different than any other. These iridescent patterns are something  the optics of their beady penguin eyes translate into the remembered patterns of their one special guy.

    • #58
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