Recommended by Ricochet Members Created with Sketch. When is Insurrection Wrong?

 

“When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.”

Virginia has again been tested, not by George III, but by Governor Northam promising to make radical laws restricting the right to keep and bear arms. The usual suspects have been crying and pleading on the internet for good and free Virginians to not use any force or violence in their protests today. Why?

When is the time to throw a governor into the streets for threatening the people of the commonwealth?

The good people of Virginia appear to have decided that today was not that day, but when is it? Does it ever come? At what point is it proper to decide that we will go this far and no farther?

I believe there is a line. I believe Gov. Northam crossed that line by threatening to take away the right to keep and bear arms. A modern-day Samual Adams should be rousting up his rough men to torch the governor’s mansion and throw him into jail or kick him down the street.

I appear to be in the minority and I can see the reluctance to take such a stand. But where is the line? Do you wait until the law is passed to take away firearms? Do you wait until they start taking away firearms? Or do you wait for some speculative date after firearms are taken, at which time you can no longer take any corrective action?

Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and George Mason would have supported throwing out the Governor earlier rather than later, and I dare say they might have agreed with me that today was that day.

What is your line? What is your point of taking responsibility for your own freedoms?

Published in Domestic Policy
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There are 32 comments.

  1. Hoyacon Member

    The chain of events where violent insurrection is a winning strategy is thankfully far away. It probably exists, but it’s beyond my horizon right now.

    Northam was duly elected. The members of the Virginia legislature who are enabling him were duly elected. The Republican Party of Virginia bears more than a little responsibility. The answer happens every two/four years.

    • #1
    • January 20, 2020, at 11:36 AM PST
    • 15 likes
  2. Arahant Member

    Sic semper tyrannis.

    • #2
    • January 20, 2020, at 11:42 AM PST
    • 4 likes
  3. MichaelKennedy Coolidge

    The very large crowd, which included many law enforcement officers, was peaceful and a suggestion that the Democrats may have misjudged. The Bloomberg money may not be enough next election.

    • #3
    • January 20, 2020, at 11:45 AM PST
    • 6 likes
  4. Arahant Member

    Skyler: A modern day Samual Adams should be rousting up his rough men to torch the governor’s mansion and throw him into jail or kick him down the street.

    Tar. Feathers. Rails.

    • #4
    • January 20, 2020, at 11:46 AM PST
    • 7 likes
  5. OkieSailor Member
    OkieSailor Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Lexington was about the British marching to seize Patriot arms from the armory. It was firmly resisted by Minutemen along the route. That was the real beginning of armed resistance and it was logically and rightly triggered by an overt act designed at disarming the citizenry. The Patriots had tried every peaceable means to come to a resolution with King George to no avail. Only when his troops moved to eliminate their ability to stand up to tyranny did the conflict become ‘hot’. While we retain peaceable means of resistance they should be employed. But if the line is crossed of disarming the populace, force must be employed. Work and pray that day never comes.

    • #5
    • January 20, 2020, at 11:48 AM PST
    • 17 likes
  6. Guruforhire Member

    Moralized democracy doesn’t have an answer for impasse.

    • #6
    • January 20, 2020, at 11:55 AM PST
    • 2 likes
  7. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler

    OkieSailor (View Comment):

    Lexington was about the British marching to seize Patriot arms from the armory. It was firmly resisted by Minutemen along the route. That was the real beginning of armed resistance and it was logically and rightly triggered by an overt act designed at disarming the citizenry. The Patriots had tried every peaceable means to come to a resolution with King George to no avail. Only when his troops moved to eliminate their ability to stand up to tyranny did the conflict become ‘hot’. While we retain peaceable means of resistance they should be employed. But if the line is crossed of disarming the populace, force must be employed. Work and pray that day never comes.

    I appreciate that sentiment, but I think that we already proved back in 1775 that we wouldn’t put up with that and we needn’t wait until it becomes desperate. Quick decisive action now will prevent a more desperate effort later.

    • #7
    • January 20, 2020, at 11:56 AM PST
    • 2 likes
  8. Barfly Member

    One of the times that insurrection, or initiating any violence for that matter, is wrong is when it’s premature. Incrementalism is rarely an effective strategy for employing violence. Premature insurrections are crushed.

    • #8
    • January 20, 2020, at 12:19 PM PST
    • 7 likes
  9. Kay of MT Member

    I don’t understand why hundreds of court injunctions haven’t been filed to stop him? If a president can be impeached over somebody lying about him, then sure as h–l a governor can be impeached to toss him out of office for going against our 2nd amendment. 

    • #9
    • January 20, 2020, at 12:22 PM PST
    • 6 likes
  10. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler

    Barfly (View Comment):

    One of the times that insurrection, or initiating any violence for that matter, is wrong is when it’s premature. Incrementalism is rarely an effective strategy for employing violence. Premature insurrections are crushed.

    Where is the line, then?

    • #10
    • January 20, 2020, at 12:28 PM PST
    • 2 likes
  11. Arahant Member

    Kay of MT (View Comment):
    …then sure as h–l a governor can be impeached to toss him out of office for going against our 2nd amendment. 

    Who impeaches a governor? The Virginia House of Delegates who are voting for these bills to put them on the governor’s desk? For the moment, they have single party rule in Virginia.

    • #11
    • January 20, 2020, at 12:31 PM PST
    • 5 likes
  12. Kay of MT Member

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Kay of MT (View Comment):
    …then sure as h–l a governor can be impeached to toss him out of office for going against our 2nd amendment.

    Who impeaches a governor? The Virginia House of Delegates who are voting for these bills to put them on the governor’s desk? For the moment, they have single party rule in Virginia.

    I don’t know because I don’t understand law, but there are thousands protesting against it, or the counties wouldn’t declare their county a sanctuary county. However, I am very glad I don’t live there. And if any tar and feathering was going on I’d be there to help.

    • #12
    • January 20, 2020, at 12:39 PM PST
    • 4 likes
  13. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Kay of MT (View Comment):
    …then sure as h–l a governor can be impeached to toss him out of office for going against our 2nd amendment.

    Who impeaches a governor? The Virginia House of Delegates who are voting for these bills to put them on the governor’s desk? For the moment, they have single party rule in Virginia.

    Virginia allows for recall of most officials, but it’s not clear if a governor can be recalled. I agree that if a recall is possible, that would be a better first step. But I doubt it would be possible to get a recall past all the inevitable hurdles democrats would set up for such an election.

    • #13
    • January 20, 2020, at 12:45 PM PST
    • 3 likes
  14. Locke On Member

    “Do not fire, without they being first.” – Capt. John Parker, Lexington, MA, April 19, 1775.

    • #14
    • January 20, 2020, at 1:01 PM PST
    • 8 likes
  15. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler

    Locke On (View Comment):

    “Do not fire, without they being first.” – Capt. John Parker, Lexington, MA, April 19, 1775.

    Ruby Ridge. Waco.

    Why would it ever be a requirement that the other side acts violently first? Our rights are not to be taken lightly, and credible threats to deny those rights need to be acted on with suitable force and energy to succeed in preserving those rights.

    • #15
    • January 20, 2020, at 1:06 PM PST
    • 5 likes
  16. Stad Thatcher

    Skyler: The good people of Virginia appear to have decided that today was not that day, but when is it? Does it ever come? At what point is it proper to decide that we will go this far and no farther?

    It will come the day after the first citizen has his guns taken away by violent force.

    • #16
    • January 20, 2020, at 1:24 PM PST
    • 10 likes
  17. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge

    I suspect that the organizers for this event will be identified and appropriately chastised.

    wonder if the government will stage another murder like in Charlottesville to destroy any chance of this movement going anywhere.

    • #17
    • January 20, 2020, at 1:25 PM PST
    • 2 likes
  18. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge

    Insurrection is always wrong unless you win….

    • #18
    • January 20, 2020, at 1:47 PM PST
    • 8 likes
  19. Barfly Member

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Barfly (View Comment):

    One of the times that insurrection, or initiating any violence for that matter, is wrong is when it’s premature. Incrementalism is rarely an effective strategy for employing violence. Premature insurrections are crushed.

    Where is the line, then?

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    Insurrection is always wrong unless you win….

     

    • #19
    • January 20, 2020, at 2:02 PM PST
    • 1 like
  20. Locke On Member

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Locke On (View Comment):

    “Do not fire, without they being first.” – Capt. John Parker, Lexington, MA, April 19, 1775.

    Ruby Ridge. Waco.

    Why would it ever be a requirement that the other side acts violently first? Our rights are not to be taken lightly, and credible threats to deny those rights need to be acted on with suitable force and energy to succeed in preserving those rights.

    Parker and others of his generation sacrificed so that we would have options other than submission or violence. Sometimes that’s expressed as “soap box, ballot box, jury box, cartridge box use in that order”. We should be extremely reluctant to jump to the end of the list, before exhausting remedies from the earlier boxes, not least in deference to those who have come before, but also since an outcome preserving our liberties and rights is far from certain.

    I would agree that state sponsored and sanctioned killing of those resisting firearms confiscation would be prima facie evidence that the time has come. Not so coincidentally, exactly that condition is what led to the events at Lexington and Concord. Ruby Ridge and Waco were government sponsored violence and gross rights violations, but at least the former received some legal redress, and they weren’t the result (as seen from this remove) of a systemic attempt to breach the Constitution under color of law.

    Second, there’s another relevant quote:

    “In war, the moral is to the physical as three to one.” – Napoleon

    If insurrection starts, it’ll likely be as a clash between extreme statists who are willing to push natural rights violations of those who are willing to defend themselves with force. The vast majority of the population are neither – which we can regret, but not deny. The opinions and actions of those stuck in the middle would likely determine the outcome of any such conflict. In the face of an MSM and myriad institutions that are thoroughly infiltrated and backing the statists, the circumstances of an outbreak need to be so clear that the truth cannot be hidden – c.f., Lexington and Concord.

    • #20
    • January 20, 2020, at 2:02 PM PST
    • 7 likes
  21. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler

    Locke On (View Comment):
    Ruby Ridge and Waco were government sponsored violence and gross rights violations, but at least the former received some legal redress, and they weren’t the result (as seen from this remove) of a systemic attempt to breach the Constitution under color of law.

    I would suggest that Ruby Ridge and Waco were precursors to that systemic attempt to breach the Constitution under color of law. I still think our nation was shamefully uninterested in jailing most of the leadership of the FBI for that. Perhaps if we had been more demonstrative back then, we wouldn’t be seeing FISA court violations, coup attempts, etc.

    • #21
    • January 20, 2020, at 4:08 PM PST
    • 6 likes
  22. Rodin Member

    The story at this link will not cool the rhetoric on the potential need for insurrection. 

    • #22
    • January 20, 2020, at 8:03 PM PST
    • 3 likes
  23. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member

    Skyler, it’s hard to answer your question without details.

    Precisely what has the Virginia Governor proposed? Has any of it been passed? If any laws have been passed, precisely what are the terms of those laws?

    I’m struggling to think of any mere proposal, by a governor, that would warrant violent resistance. Perhaps there could be some exceptions, as I can’t anticipate all possible eventualities, but it seems prudent to wait until a law is actually passed. At that point, I would need to know the content of the particular law.

    According to this article, the Virginia Senate has passed 3 bills and sent them to the Virginia House for consideration. These 3 bills apparently: (1) require a background check on all gun sales; (2) limit gun purchases to 1 every 30 days; and (3) allows localities to ban guns from public events.

    I don’t think that any of these particular measures would justify insurrection. As far as I can tell, they do not provide for seizure of any guns. While annoying, it seems to me that a court challenge is the best course in these circumstances — if these laws are actually passed.

    • #23
    • January 20, 2020, at 8:55 PM PST
    • 4 likes
  24. kidCoder Member

    The lines are when democracy is gone (end of voting), or when the means to resist the end of democracy are under imminent removal.

    • #24
    • January 20, 2020, at 10:04 PM PST
    • 1 like
  25. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler

    kidCoder (View Comment):

    The lines are when democracy is gone (end of voting), or when the means to resist the end of democracy are under imminent removal.

    And when a majority democratic vote directs you to drink the hemlock, will you?

    • #25
    • January 21, 2020, at 3:57 AM PST
    • Like
  26. Aaron Miller Member
    Aaron Miller Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Stad (View Comment):

    Skyler: The good people of Virginia appear to have decided that today was not that day, but when is it? Does it ever come? At what point is it proper to decide that we will go this far and no farther?

    It will come the day after the first citizen has his guns taken away by violent force.

    In theory, I agree. In reality, I don’t believe modern Americans will ever massively and violently rebel, regardless of which freedoms and possessions are taken. Our governments can enact any injustice so long as they do it to a handful of citizens at a time. 

    British and Australian citizens once exercised the right of self-defense. Most weapons have since been seized. 

    It doesn’t matter if officials are duly elected when they assume powers no government can justly claim. Our most basic freedoms are not up for popular vote. 

    But there is little freedom in war and ruin. And revolutions are always wild gambles. People are understandably reluctant to risk all freedoms and securities to spare a few. 

    • #26
    • January 21, 2020, at 11:00 AM PST
    • 2 likes
  27. Steve C. Member

    Seems to me this is the first step of what could metastasize into a state wide resistance. A lot will depend on how tone deaf the governor and his supporters are. I would hope they’ve thought things through. The logical end point could be agents of the state knocking on the doors of private homes demanding people turn over their fire arms. More importantly, being willing to use force to do same.

     

    • #27
    • January 21, 2020, at 11:28 AM PST
    • 2 likes
  28. Bill Nelson Member

    Skyler: Samual Adams should be rousting up his rough men to torch the governor’s mansion and throw him into jail or kick him down the street.

    Samuel Adams did none of these things. He was certainly a firebrand, but even in 1775 Samuel Adam’s did not believe that an independent nation was the solution, but granting of full rights to the colonists were what was desired. if they had representatives, voting, in parliament, then the levied taxes, while not popular, would be deemed legal.

    Remember, Revere did not yell “the British are coming!” because they thought of themselves as British. He would have said “the regulars are coming” and he would not have shouted it, for there were soldiers/sentries in the area (Revere was actually captured).

    And the other clause in the declaration provides an answer to your question:

    Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

     

    • #28
    • January 21, 2020, at 12:29 PM PST
    • 3 likes
  29. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler

    Bill Nelson (View Comment):

    Skyler: Samual Adams should be rousting up his rough men to torch the governor’s mansion and throw him into jail or kick him down the street.

    Samuel Adams did none of these things. He was certainly a firebrand, but even in 1775 Samuel Adam’s did not believe that an independent nation was the solution, but granting of full rights to the colonists were what was desired. if they had representatives, voting, in parliament, then the levied taxes, while not popular, would be deemed legal.

    Remember, Revere did not yell “the British are coming!” because they thought of themselves as British. He would have said “the regulars are coming” and he would not have shouted it, for there were soldiers/sentries in the area (Revere was actually captured).

    And the other clause in the declaration provides an answer to your question:

    Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

    Come now. Sam Adams was a rabble rouser, and very little different in many ways to union bosses today who use extra legal methods in organizing strikes.

     

    • #29
    • January 21, 2020, at 1:01 PM PST
    • Like
  30. ToryWarWriter Thatcher

    You can cripple a government much easier than marching on the capital pitchforks in hand.

    If every single one of those protestors parked there car on as many interstates as possible and even country roads. It would take days if not weeks for 29000 cars. In the mean time the ability to bring in food into the cities, not to mention everything that moves on trucks from secondary manufacturing to commercial products to fuel would not work. They wouldnt have space in the impound lots for all those cars.

    Believe me the government and the Democrats in the city would feel that much more than touching off an insurrection.

    • #30
    • January 21, 2020, at 2:37 PM PST
    • 3 likes