Recommended by Ricochet Members Created with Sketch. Missing the Point on Warren vs. Sanders

 

Elizabeth Warren claims Bernie Sanders said that a woman can’t beat Trump in 2020. Sanders denies having said it. Everywhere I look, I come across some pundit treating this as if it’s a real scandal: Is Sanders a women-hater? Or is Warren lying through her teeth (again)?

What I haven’t come across is a sane person pointing out that even if Sanders said exactly what Warren claims, it’s not evidence of woman-hating. It’s simply an opinion or prediction about what the outcome would be. (Or, perhaps, a bit of gamesmanship gamespersonship.)

This may seem a trivial point, but we need to push back against the notion that the slightest criticism (and this doesn’t even amount to that) of any person or group is evidence of hatred. The Left practices this sleight-of-hand reflexively and the Right increasingly doesn’t call them on it or buys into it themselves.

It’s poisoning our culture.

Edit: Looks like Jim Geraghty made this very point on The Corner (Assuming Bernie Sanders Said It, Just What Did He Do Wrong? ) about an hour before I posted this. Good on him. I hope others will do the same.

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There are 21 comments.

  1. Arahant Member

    Why do you hate women? 😈

    • #1
    • January 17, 2020, at 12:30 AM PST
    • 15 likes
  2. Freeven Member
    Freeven Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Why do you hate women? 😈

    I don’t hate all women — just the ones that don’t know their place.

    • #2
    • January 17, 2020, at 12:42 AM PST
    • 16 likes
  3. Mendel Member
    Mendel Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    I think even this post might be missing the point. I doubt anyone in the Warren camp really cares what Bernie actually said or what he might have actually meant.

    This is all about stealing some media attention away from impeachment coverage and onto a stagnating candidate in a dreadfully boring race. Nothing more.

    Heck, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Bernie team is also happy about this “scandal”. Given how few people are paying attention to the primary and how much of the polling seems to be driven by name recognition alone, bad press is probably better for Bernie than no press at all.

    • #3
    • January 17, 2020, at 1:38 AM PST
    • 7 likes
  4. MarciN Member

    And I’ll go one more: If he did say it, he was saying the country’s voters were sexist. He wasn’t expressing his own opinion of her as a candidate.

    • #4
    • January 17, 2020, at 2:09 AM PST
    • 9 likes
  5. Freeven Member
    Freeven Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Mendel (View Comment):

    I think even this post might be missing the point. I doubt anyone in the Warren camp really cares what Bernie actually said or what he might have actually meant.

    This is all about stealing some media attention away from impeachment coverage and onto a stagnating candidate in a dreadfully boring race. Nothing more.

    Your point is valid as well, but it doesn’t undermine mine. When we (both Left and Right) start reflexively accepting that any and all unwanted opinion (even if true) is tantamount to hatred, we’re in big trouble. If we don’t challenge that practice, it makes it easier for slimy politicians to do what you describe.

    • #5
    • January 17, 2020, at 3:10 AM PST
    • 8 likes
  6. Ed G. Member
    Ed G. Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Freeven, I realize that you don’t have my house bugged – probably – but I’ve been ranting to my wife about exactly that. So I’m sane. Mostly.

    • #6
    • January 17, 2020, at 5:22 AM PST
    • 7 likes
  7. Guruforhire Member

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBYEPBkXHpM

    • #7
    • January 17, 2020, at 5:23 AM PST
    • 2 likes
  8. Ed G. Member
    Ed G. Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    If Sanders had any grit he would have responded: “Yes, I did say that to Senator Warren in what I thought was a private friendly conversation discussing the political landscape and the campaign ahead. I was only trying to be polite to my close friend Senator Warren. Of course a woman can win – it’s just Senator Warren that can’t win.”

    • #8
    • January 17, 2020, at 5:27 AM PST
    • 12 likes
  9. Ed G. Member
    Ed G. Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Sanders should have answered exactly how the OP put it. The problem is that no Democrat can disavow the underlying identitarianism; no Democrat can really reign in the dimwitted fascist electorate they’ve been busy creating and enabling. 

    • #9
    • January 17, 2020, at 5:31 AM PST
    • 3 likes
  10. Stad Thatcher

    Freeven: lying through her teeth forked tongue

    FIFY . . .

    • #10
    • January 17, 2020, at 5:48 AM PST
    • 4 likes
  11. Stina Member

    Tulsi has a chance to beat Trump. But she’s just as radioactive as Trump in the policies they have in common, so she won’t be nominated.

    The party apparatus would never let Tulsi win, but she’s strong on the policies that lured blue Dems to Trump and strong on the socialist stuff that brings the privileged baby Dems’ energy to the table.

    • #11
    • January 17, 2020, at 5:57 AM PST
    • 4 likes
  12. Valiuth Member
    Valiuth Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Mendel (View Comment):

    I think even this post might be missing the point. I doubt anyone in the Warren camp really cares what Bernie actually said or what he might have actually meant.

    This is all about stealing some media attention away from impeachment coverage and onto a stagnating candidate in a dreadfully boring race. Nothing more.

    Heck, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Bernie team is also happy about this “scandal”. Given how few people are paying attention to the primary and how much of the polling seems to be driven by name recognition alone, bad press is probably better for Bernie than no press at all.

    Yah, this is all political gamesmanship. The two can’t argue about policy (because they are essentially identical at least as far as most voters are willing to delve down) so they have to play the man not being able to get at the ball. Politics being full contact sport and all. Of course their problem is that it won’t really help either of them. I think it makes them both look bad and that just means more votes for Biden in the end. 

    • #12
    • January 17, 2020, at 6:12 AM PST
    • 3 likes
  13. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Guruforhire (View Comment):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBYEPBkXHpM

    Warren’s feather headdress is a nice touch.

    • #13
    • January 17, 2020, at 6:49 AM PST
    • 2 likes
  14. DonG (skeptic) Coolidge

    Freeven: This may seem a trivial point, but we need to push back against the notion that the slightest criticism (and this doesn’t even amount to that) of any person or group is evidence of hatred. The Left practices this slight of hand reflexively, and the Right increasingly doesn’t call them on it or buys into it themselves.

    Context matters. When a female potential candidate meets with a male ex-candidate to discuss a possible run and the male says (she hears) “Don’t bother. A woman can never win.” a lot of people will think that is both sexist and important. If Bernie says to Hillary after the 2016 election, “a female never stood a chance against Trump.” a lot of people will think that is empathetic and woke.

     

    My takeaway is that Warren, who has a big credibility problem, chose a he-said-she-said fight with the candidate that has the highest credibility in a long time. What a fool. I still think she will win, because the DNC will not allow Bernie or Bloomberg and will stop protecting Biden after the impeachment ruse. 

    • #14
    • January 17, 2020, at 8:09 AM PST
    • 2 likes
  15. Rodin Member

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Guruforhire (View Comment):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBYEPBkXHpM

    Warren’s feather headdress is a nice touch.

    Was the single feather 1/1024th of a full war bonnet?

    • #15
    • January 17, 2020, at 8:10 AM PST
    • 5 likes
  16. Stad Thatcher

    Stina (View Comment):

    Tulsi has a chance to beat Trump. But she’s just as radioactive as Trump in the policies they have in common, so she won’t be nominated.

    The party apparatus would never let Tulsi win, but she’s strong on the policies that lured blue Dems to Trump and strong on the socialist stuff that brings the privileged baby Dems’ energy to the table.

    And being in the military, Tulsi has the appearance of someone who supports the military, even though a President Gabbard would slash the defense budget and hobble our troops with LGBT mandatory training . . .

    • #16
    • January 17, 2020, at 11:33 AM PST
    • 1 like
  17. Jon1979 Lincoln

    Warren’s core supporters are in general of smaller number and less passionate than Bernie’s bros, but they’re in far more key positions within the political and media infrastructure, and those elites feel that of the two candidate running on the left side, Liz is the one who would be most likely to allow the media and cultural upper-class elites an exception from the policies she wants to impose on everyone else. It’s the same type of special exception carve-outs the same people always knew the Clintons would come through with for them — it might be a smaller crony capitalist carve-out than in the past, but they think Liz will still have their backs (even if the crony capitalists on Wall Street don’t think that way).

    Bernie and his followers scare them, in that they might actually be True Believers who plan to take down all millionaires (well, except for Bernie) and billionaires, and they might not be spared. Remember, Kyle Jurek in that Project Veritas video this week didn’t just want to take down Fox News — he also wanted to pillage and plunder MSNBC and CNN for not being loyal enough to The Cause, and there are no doubt other hardcore Sanders supporters who feel the same way about taking down all the elites, to create a Year Zero new American society.

    The liberal elites might scoff at James O’Keefe’s video here, but down deep, they do think a Sanders presidency would put them in the cross-hairs as much as it would Donald Trump or any of his supporters. So they’re trying to rig the system against Bernie just as they did in 2016, but Warren is as bad a candidate as Hillary and doesn’t have 25 years of Clinton machine in place to back up the effort. CNN pulling those stunts before, during and after the debate to help Warren just makes Sanders’ backers remember 2016, and just makes them madder.

    • #17
    • January 17, 2020, at 11:50 AM PST
    • 2 likes
  18. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Jon1979 (View Comment):
    but Warren is as bad a candidate as Hillary

    I didn’t think it was possible to be more unlikable than Hillary. . .

    • #18
    • January 17, 2020, at 12:20 PM PST
    • 5 likes
  19. Stad Thatcher

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Jon1979 (View Comment):
    but Warren is as bad a candidate as Hillary

    I didn’t think it was possible to be more unlikable than Hillary. . .

    If Hillary reminds a male voter of his ex-wife, Liz reminds a guy of his ex-sister-in-law . . .

    • #19
    • January 17, 2020, at 12:37 PM PST
    • 7 likes
  20. BastiatJunior Member

    Freeven: the Right increasingly doesn’t call them on it

    I would change that to “decreasingly.” Looks to me like Republicans are finally beginning to fight back. Maybe I’m too optimistic.

    • #20
    • January 17, 2020, at 5:06 PM PST
    • 4 likes
  21. Kozak Member
    Kozak Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Freeven

    Elizabeth Warren claims Bernie Sanders said that a woman can’t beat Trump in 2020. Sanders denies having said it. Everywhere I look, I come across some pundit treating this as if it’s a real scandal: Is Sanders a women-hater? Or is Warren lying through her teeth (again)?

     

    Either way

    • #21
    • January 18, 2020, at 4:54 AM PST
    • 3 likes