An Unexpected Argument for Electric Cars

 

Leaving all the politics of climate change and all that aside, here is something to take notice of.

An all-electric car that is faster than a Formula 1 car. In certain configurations, it produces more downforce in kilograms than it actually weighs.

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  1. Spin Inactive
    Spin
    @Spin

    Jon1979 (View Comment):
    his story came out over the weekend that said all-electric buses suffer an almost 38 percent decrease in range in cold weather.

    This is a very valid point to consider.  When I was looking at a solar system for my home, we discussed batter storage.  Do you put them inside, where they take up room and are a potential fire hazard?  Or do you store them outside?  Where I live it does sometimes get cold enough to affect the batteries.  It doesn’t take a ton of energy to overcome the issue (i.e., using some of the energy to keep the batteries warm enough), but it degrades the cost / benefit.  In my case, the break even was a wash.  The system would need to be replaced by the time it paid for itself.  And that was including the tax credits.  

    So we aren’t there yet, but we are moving in that direction.  

    • #91
  2. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    Spin (View Comment):
    I once made the boneheaded comment that digital cameras could never replace film cameras for anyone serious about photography. Wrong. Both my Leicas and even my Nikon DSLR sit in the closet. I shoot with a Galaxy S10 with fantastic results. (I still take the M2 out and fondle it from time to time, though.)

    I am looking for a replacement to my old ViewMaster Stereo camera. What’s with the stagnation in 3D photography??

    A good question. It’s not as stagnant as you think. Digital 3D, like the rest of 3D, had a new wave of products in 2008-2016 and the cameras have autostereoscopic screens on the back–no glasses. It looks like a lenticular greeting card or album cover. So far autostereoscopic displays are really expensive once you get beyond roughly 8 inches diagonal, but they’re getting there, price and performance wise. I use a 3D TV with passive glasses to view my “slides”. Oculus and other virtual reality tools/toys are keeping the field alive until the next wave, which is probably glasses-free. 

    • #92
  3. Spin Inactive
    Spin
    @Spin

    GeezerBob (View Comment):
    You question that?

    Nobody questions the range issue.  

    • #93
  4. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Hugh (View Comment):

    Do car manufacturers really want to sell you a car that will drive for 500,000 miles?

    They probably would like you to dumpster your car and get a new one every year. But they have to compete.

    Life is hard.

    Idea. Instead of selling cars they could sell a license to use a car, like Microsoft does. And they could declare it to be a service, and require you to update whenever they feel like it, whether while driving down I-94 between Ann Arbor and Detroit, or any other time and place.

    Maybe it won’t work just yet, but as cars continue to morph into computers can we look for it in our future?  I think farm tractors have already gone a step farther down this road cornfield than road vehicles.  For example.

    • #94
  5. CarolJoy, Above Top Secret Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Above Top Secret
    @CarolJoy

    GLDIII Temporarily Essential (View Comment):

    CarolJoy, Above Top Secret (View Comment):

    Also, supposedly it can outgun a Porsche in terms of going from 0 to sixty mph?

     

    Sorry Carol,

    Going to call bogus on this one. Them Priui’s (what is the plural of Prius?) only can muster 0 to 60 in about 10 seconds, not since the 70’s is a Porsche that slow. Today’s Porsche offerings (not including (shudder) their SUV option) are less than 5 seconds. That halving of acceleration rate comes at a large surplus of horsepower, and a light weight chassis to get those differences.

    Now if you wish to argue about some of Musk’s offerings, yes those totally electric vehicles (despite some significant weight penalties, so careful when you get to the turns) can best the Porsche’s at a significantly lower fractional cost of a minimum walk away Porsche price.

    I just hope I never have to learn the devils’ need to fix a Tesla. Screwing around trying to debug with my sister’s 6 year old Camry hybrid has me despondent of developing an entirely new bag o’ tricks to fix.

    (I loath amorphous black boxes with unaccountable electron movements)

    Zero to 60 in ten seconds is still pretty damn commendable, especially for a car that requires little in repairs and gets 38 to 43 mph. (Except when I take a road that is all mountainous, switch back road ways.)

    • #95
  6. Spin Inactive
    Spin
    @Spin

    The Reticulator (View Comment):
    Idea. Instead of selling cars they could sell a license to use a car, like Microsoft does.

    Are you still whinging about that?  Let’s not cross the posts!  

    • #96
  7. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    CarolJoy, Above Top Secret (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    One day the electric car will be better than the gasoline powered car. This is not that day, or even decade, but it will happen. Not through government fiat, or the will of Gaia, but because science will discover or engineers will refine that better vehicle.

    I’ll kind of resent it because the cars were cool and the world was new and the highways went on forever and were full of possibility and not more cars than they could manage. And because romance of the road.

    But I’ll trade eventually trade in my Ludditemobile for a half-ton battery with a plastic car wrapped around it.

    In 2014, we quite happily traded our 1988 Ford econoline van for some $ 450 and then put that money toward the down payment on a 2009 Prius. At taht point, the van was costing us around $ 300 a monthly in repairs.

    Prius is very intelligently designed. It is a hybrid, using both gasoline and electricity. The one complaint we both have is that if at purchase time, we had had another $ 3,500 worth of credit we might have gone with a Ford SUV hybrid styled vehicle. The thought of having to evacuate our household during a wildfire with only a Prius to put things in doesn’t make me happy.

    The Ford hybrid also has a bit more horse power, at least that is my understanding. We both love muscle cars. My fave was the 1973 Maverick I drove for ten years when we lived in Marin. And the 1992 Thunderbird we drove til the transmission crapped out in 2007.

    Also, we are paying it off in full this next month. Except for tires, wind shield wipers and occasionally brake pads, the only other major expense on this car was the auxiliary battery late in November 2019. Well, this repair required some $ 250 for the part and some $ 100 labor. That battery should be good for another seven to ten years.

    All in all not a bad situation for a ten year old car. Have I mentioned that it gets in the 38 to 43 mph range? Also, supposedly it can outgun a Porsche in terms of going from 0 to sixty mph?

    Plus later in 2020 when we sell it, we will list it at $ 6,500 and probably get very close to that.

    ###

    ####

    I had a 1973 Maverick too, and really enjoyed it. Insurance companies had just cracked down on blatant muscle cars, so between that and new emission controls, that particular horsepower era came to an abrupt end. So manufacturers (somewhat) beefed up cars like Ford’s Maverick, GM’s Nova, and Chrysler’s Dart/Valiant to give a bit of the old time street racer feel to what were basically family cars. A Maverick with a 302 V8 was no Ford GT, or even a goosed Mustang to be sure, but it was fast and fun. 

    Like a lot of old cars, I was happy to finally get rid of it when the time came, but now I wish I’d kept it. 

    • #97
  8. Judge Mental Member
    Judge Mental
    @JudgeMental

    Spin (View Comment):
    That said, my point, as Franco say, is to ignore the politics and the hatred of prius drivers

    Hate diversion:

    I read a story a few years back about a dispute between two neighbors.  The reflection of the noonday sun on the first guy’s solar panels was literally melting the other guy’s Prius in his driveway.

    • #98
  9. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Spin (View Comment):
    That said, my point, as Franco say, is to ignore the politics and the hatred of prius drivers

    Hate diversion:

    I read a story a few years back about a dispute between two neighbors. The reflection of the noonday sun on the first guy’s solar panels was literally melting the other guy’s Prius in his driveway.

    Rosie O’ Donnell assures us that fire cannot melt steel. 

    • #99
  10. Judge Mental Member
    Judge Mental
    @JudgeMental

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Spin (View Comment):
    That said, my point, as Franco say, is to ignore the politics and the hatred of prius drivers

    Hate diversion:

    I read a story a few years back about a dispute between two neighbors. The reflection of the noonday sun on the first guy’s solar panels was literally melting the other guy’s Prius in his driveway.

    Rosie O’ Donnell assures us that fire cannot melt steel.

    Rubber and plastic mostly.  Besides,is there any steel in that car?

    • #100
  11. GLDIII Temporarily Essential Reagan
    GLDIII Temporarily Essential
    @GLDIII

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Spin (View Comment):
    That said, my point, as Franco say, is to ignore the politics and the hatred of prius drivers

    Hate diversion:

    I read a story a few years back about a dispute between two neighbors. The reflection of the noonday sun on the first guy’s solar panels was literally melting the other guy’s Prius in his driveway.

    Rosie O’ Donnell assures us that fire cannot melt steel.

    Rubber and plastic mostly. Besides, is there any steel in that car?

    Just by the government from the taxpayers to pay for the subsidies they offer for folks to buy electric cars.

    • #101
  12. Spin Inactive
    Spin
    @Spin

    I was just discussing this subject with one of our senior engineers.  He raised a point:  removal of cobalt from lithium-ion.  He said this won’t have a drastic affect on life and reliability of Li-ion batteries, but it will make them much cheaper to produce, much easier to recycle, and will drive adoption. 

    • #102
  13. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    GLDIII Temporarily Essential (View Comment):
    Just by the government from the taxpayers to pay for the subsidies they offer for folks to buy electric cars.

    That is spelled s-t-e-a-l.

    • #103
  14. Franco Member
    Franco
    @Franco

    Hugh (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):
    I beg y’all to ignore the environmental arguments and just look at the technology.
    We are certainly allowed to appreciate our muscle cars and the sweet smell of diesel in the morning, while simultaneously watching superior technology/systems come into being.

    I don’t have a problem with accepting the new technology. The problem is always how it is sold. People say it’s going to do more than it can. People say it’s going to improve by X number of times in the near future, when that can only be true if the technology changes radically again. But, yes, there are some cool toys out there, and some of the electric cars are good tools under the right circumstances. But some folks are tellin’ me it’s the hammer and every problem is a nail. That just isn’t so.

    Do car manufacturers really want to sell you a car that will drive for 500,000 miles?

    Tesla is different. Yes, I understand that car dealerships make their money on service and repair. Tesla decided not to go that route. They have some showrooms but you just order a car online and they deliver. They also have a mobile repair service. There’s no money in service… and why should there be?

    Maybe eventually  they will also profit from charging stations. 

    Musk is planning to buy back all leased model 3’s and convert them into robo cars in the next several years. This will be a different revenue stream.

    Also, Tesla will be in the auto insurance business.  since every Tesla collects data on drivers, they have better information to price insurance more competitively. 

    It’s a little like Amazon. I wondered how they were going to make money selling books. Now I’ve learned something!

    • #104
  15. GLDIII Temporarily Essential Reagan
    GLDIII Temporarily Essential
    @GLDIII

    Arahant (View Comment):

    GLDIII Temporarily Essential (View Comment):
    Just by the government from the taxpayers to pay for the subsidies they offer for folks to buy electric cars.

    That is spelled s-t-e-a-l.

    Whatever, it’s still a Peter to Paul operation with a  hefty skim charge by the middle man.

    • #105
  16. Spin Inactive
    Spin
    @Spin

    GLDIII Temporarily Essential (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    GLDIII Temporarily Essential (View Comment):
    Just by the government from the taxpayers to pay for the subsidies they offer for folks to buy electric cars.

    That is spelled s-t-e-a-l.

    Whatever, it’s still a Peter to Paul operation with a hefty skim charge by the middle man.

    AKA:  choosing winners and losers.  It’s a nice gig if you are one of the winners.  My company did a lot of solar installs in Arizona until the tax subsidies ended.  

    • #106
  17. Jon1979 Inactive
    Jon1979
    @Jon1979

    Franco (View Comment):

    Hugh (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):
    I beg y’all to ignore the environmental arguments and just look at the technology.
    We are certainly allowed to appreciate our muscle cars and the sweet smell of diesel in the morning, while simultaneously watching superior technology/systems come into being.

    I don’t have a problem with accepting the new technology. The problem is always how it is sold. People say it’s going to do more than it can. People say it’s going to improve by X number of times in the near future, when that can only be true if the technology changes radically again. But, yes, there are some cool toys out there, and some of the electric cars are good tools under the right circumstances. But some folks are tellin’ me it’s the hammer and every problem is a nail. That just isn’t so.

    Do car manufacturers really want to sell you a car that will drive for 500,000 miles?

    Tesla is different. Yes, I understand that car dealerships make their money on service and repair. Tesla decided not to go that route. They have some showrooms but you just order a car online and they deliver. They also have a mobile repair service. There’s no money in service… and why should there be?

    Maybe eventually they will also profit from charging stations.

    Musk is planning to buy back all leased model 3’s and convert them into robo cars in the next several years. This will be a different revenue stream.

    Also, Tesla will be in the auto insurance business. since every Tesla collects data on drivers, they have better information to price insurance more competitively.

    It’s a little like Amazon. I wondered how they were going to make money selling books. Now I’ve learned something!

    I kind of wonder how that repair model will work if Tesla’s pickup model is actually developed for serious usage. The dealerships in Midland-Odessa have about a month backlog of stressed oilfield pickups needing repairs.

    • #107
  18. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Spin (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):
    Idea. Instead of selling cars they could sell a license to use a car, like Microsoft does.

    Are you still whinging about that? Let’s not cross the posts!

    It’s whining, not whinging. And I’d have to turn in my reticulator license if I wasn’t able to connect the two topics.  

    • #108
  19. OmegaPaladin Moderator
    OmegaPaladin
    @OmegaPaladin

    Spin (View Comment):

    OmegaPaladin (View Comment):
    I can scrub carbon dioxide from the air and mass-produce fresh water.

    “Like with a cloth?”

    (see what I did there?)

    No, with a brush & scrub sponge.

    • #109
  20. Franco Member
    Franco
    @Franco

    Jon1979 (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):

    Hugh (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):
    I beg y’all to ignore the environmental arguments and just look at the technology.
    We are certainly allowed to appreciate our muscle cars and the sweet smell of diesel in the morning, while simultaneously watching superior technology/systems come into being.

    I don’t have a problem with accepting the new technology. The problem is always how it is sold. People say it’s going to do more than it can. People say it’s going to improve by X number of times in the near future, when that can only be true if the technology changes radically again. But, yes, there are some cool toys out there, and some of the electric cars are good tools under the right circumstances. But some folks are tellin’ me it’s the hammer and every problem is a nail. That just isn’t so.

    Do car manufacturers really want to sell you a car that will drive for 500,000 miles?

    Tesla is different. Yes, I understand that car dealerships make their money on service and repair. Tesla decided not to go that route. They have some showrooms but you just order a car online and they deliver. They also have a mobile repair service. There’s no money in service… and why should there be?

    Maybe eventually they will also profit from charging stations.

    Musk is planning to buy back all leased model 3’s and convert them into robo cars in the next several years. This will be a different revenue stream.

    Also, Tesla will be in the auto insurance business. since every Tesla collects data on drivers, they have better information to price insurance more competitively.

    It’s a little like Amazon. I wondered how they were going to make money selling books. Now I’ve learned something!

    I kind of wonder how that repair model will work if Tesla’s pickup model is actually developed for serious usage. The dealerships in Midland-Odessa have about a month backlog of stressed oilfield pickups needing repairs.

    I’m not sure what point you are making here. My position is that electric  cars (and pickups) have far fewer problems and needs. If the cybertruck is adopted and is used in a concentrated area ( ironically for oil extraction ?) I imagine they could set up a repair shop, if needed, no problem.

    • #110
  21. CarolJoy, Above Top Secret Coolidge
    CarolJoy, Above Top Secret
    @CarolJoy

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    CarolJoy, Above Top Secret (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    One day the electric car will be better than the gasoline powered car. This is not that day, or even decade, but it will happen. Not through government fiat, or the will of Gaia, but because science will discover or engineers will refine that better vehicle.

    I’ll kind of resent it because the cars were cool and the world was new and the highways went on forever and were full of possibility and not more cars than they could manage. And because romance of the road.

    But I’ll trade eventually trade in my Ludditemobile for a half-ton battery with a plastic car wrapped around it.

    In 2014, we quite happily traded our 1988 Ford econoline van for some $ 450 and then put that money toward the down payment on a 2009 Prius. At taht point, the van was costing us around $ 300 a monthly in repairs.

    Prius is very intelligently designed. It is a hybrid, using both gasoline and electricity. The one complaint we both have is that if at purchase time, we had had another $ 3,500 worth of credit we might have gone with a Ford SUV hybrid styled vehicle. The thought of having to evacuate our household during a wildfire with only a Prius to put things in doesn’t make me happy.

    The Ford hybrid also has a bit more horse power, at least that is my understanding. We both love muscle cars. My fave was the 1973 Maverick I drove for ten years when we lived in Marin. And the 1992 Thunderbird we drove til the transmission crapped out in 2007.

    SNIP Plus in 2020 when we sell it, we will list the Prius  at $ 6,500 and probably get very close to that.

    ###

    ####

    I had a 1973 Maverick too, and really enjoyed it. Insurance companies had just cracked down on blatant muscle cars, so between that and new emission controls, that particular horsepower era came to an abrupt end. So manufacturers (somewhat) beefed up cars like Ford’s Maverick, GM’s Nova, and Chrysler’s Dart/Valiant to give a bit of the old time street racer feel to what were basically family cars. A Maverick with a 302 V8 was no Ford GT, or even a goosed Mustang to be sure, but it was fast and fun.

    Like a lot of old cars, I was happy to finally get rid of it when the time came, but now I wish I’d kept it.

    My Maverick had a 389. I don’t know if that engine came original with the car, or if the owner between me and the factory had put it in.

     

    • #111
  22. Jon1979 Inactive
    Jon1979
    @Jon1979

    Franco (View Comment):

    Jon1979 (View Comment):

    I kind of wonder how that repair model will work if Tesla’s pickup model is actually developed for serious usage. The dealerships in Midland-Odessa have about a month backlog of stressed oilfield pickups needing repairs.

    I’m not sure what point you are making here. My position is that electric cars (and pickups) have far fewer problems and needs. If the cybertruck is adopted and is used in a concentrated area ( ironically for oil extraction ?) I imagine they could set up a repair shop, if needed, no problem.

    I would just think that for corporate fleet sales, a fixed location repair shop before the sale would be something companies would require if the vehicles have to be serviced. You’d need a location with lifts in place to do high-volume repairs and/or preventive maintenance if the plans are to compete with the regular ICE vehicle builders outside of the passenger car market, especially for pickups that are going to get serious off-road use. If Tesla just wants to build ‘Urban Cowboy’ pickups for people who like the style, but don’t really plan to work them out, then they could probably get away with the no repair shop model.

    • #112
  23. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Jon1979 (View Comment):
    I would just think that for corporate fleet sales, a fixed location repair shop before the sale would be something companies would require if the vehicles have to be serviced. You’d need a location with lifts in place to do high-volume repairs and/or preventive maintenance if the plans are to compete with the regular ICE vehicle builders outside of the passenger car market, especially for pickups that are going to get serious off-road use. If Tesla just wants to build ‘Urban Cowboy’ pickups for people who like the style, but don’t really plan to work them out, then they could probably get away with the no repair shop model.

    I went looking for info on how Rivian is planning to handle service for the Amazon delivery trucks etc., and found some weasel words about learning from Tesla’s mistakes and making them easily repairable. Which doesn’t answer the question of how and where they are going to get serviced. 

    • #113
  24. Jon1979 Inactive
    Jon1979
    @Jon1979

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Jon1979 (View Comment):
    I would just think that for corporate fleet sales, a fixed location repair shop before the sale would be something companies would require if the vehicles have to be serviced. You’d need a location with lifts in place to do high-volume repairs and/or preventive maintenance if the plans are to compete with the regular ICE vehicle builders outside of the passenger car market, especially for pickups that are going to get serious off-road use. If Tesla just wants to build ‘Urban Cowboy’ pickups for people who like the style, but don’t really plan to work them out, then they could probably get away with the no repair shop model.

    I went looking for info on how Rivian is planning to handle service for the Amazon delivery trucks etc., and found some weasel words about learning from Tesla’s mistakes and making them easily repairable. Which doesn’t answer the question of how and where they are going to get serviced.

    In a major metro area, I could see where roving repairmen might work. I don’t see how it works in outlying areas, and while car batteries might not require the preventive maintenance and repairs that a conventional engine does, other things like brakes, suspension, getting power from the battery to the wheels and road hazards in general aren’t going to change between electric and gas-powered engines. At the very least, Rivan and Tesla will need to support third-party repair locations that can do warrantied repairs on EVs at high volume levels.

    • #114
  25. Hugh Inactive
    Hugh
    @Hugh

    Jon1979 (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Jon1979 (View Comment):
    I would just think that for corporate fleet sales, a fixed location repair shop before the sale would be something companies would require if the vehicles have to be serviced. You’d need a location with lifts in place to do high-volume repairs and/or preventive maintenance if the plans are to compete with the regular ICE vehicle builders outside of the passenger car market, especially for pickups that are going to get serious off-road use. If Tesla just wants to build ‘Urban Cowboy’ pickups for people who like the style, but don’t really plan to work them out, then they could probably get away with the no repair shop model.

    I went looking for info on how Rivian is planning to handle service for the Amazon delivery trucks etc., and found some weasel words about learning from Tesla’s mistakes and making them easily repairable. Which doesn’t answer the question of how and where they are going to get serviced.

    In a major metro area, I could see where roving repairmen might work. I don’t see how it works in outlying areas, and while car batteries might not require the preventive maintenance and repairs that a conventional engine does, other things like brakes, suspension, getting power from the battery to the wheels and road hazards in general aren’t going to change between electric and gas-powered engines. At the very least, Rivan and Tesla will need to support third-party repair locations that can do warrantied repairs on EVs at high volume levels.

    Ok, I’ll say it: Flying Robot Repair Technicians. (FRRTs)

    And they can rest on the power lines to recharge!

    • #115
  26. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Hugh (View Comment):

    In a major metro area, I could see where roving repairmen might work. I don’t see how it works in outlying areas, and while car batteries might not require the preventive maintenance and repairs that a conventional engine does, other things like brakes, suspension, getting power from the battery to the wheels and road hazards in general aren’t going to change between electric and gas-powered engines. At the very least, Rivan and Tesla will need to support third-party repair locations that can do warrantied repairs on EVs at high volume levels.

    Ok, I’ll say it: Flying Robot Repair Technicians.

    And they can rest on the power lines to recharge!

    First they need to make those trucks available through Amazon Prime. Amazon claims to have invested $700 million in Rivian, but you can’t buy one of those trucks with Prime two-day delivery.  Their order for 100,000 trucks is not going to be completely fulfilled until 2040.  

    • #116
  27. Spin Inactive
    Spin
    @Spin

    It is my opinion that this post should be the Member Post of the Week.  If it isn’t, and because I didn’t with the wooden jigsaw puzzle, I shall raise cain.  Which is to say I’ll rant and rave like an impotent jerk.

    • #117
  28. Judge Mental Member
    Judge Mental
    @JudgeMental

    Spin (View Comment):

    It is my opinion that this post should be the Member Post of the Week. If it isn’t, and because I didn’t with the wooden jigsaw puzzle, I shall raise cain. Which is to say I’ll rant and rave like an impotent jerk.

    With the two badges you look really important.

    • #118
  29. Spin Inactive
    Spin
    @Spin

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    Spin (View Comment):

    It is my opinion that this post should be the Member Post of the Week. If it isn’t, and because I didn’t with the wooden jigsaw puzzle, I shall raise cain. Which is to say I’ll rant and rave like an impotent jerk.

    With the two badges you look really important.

    I feel really important.

    • #119
  30. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Spin (View Comment):
    I feel really important.

    *Poke* *Poke* Feel kind of squishy to me.

    • #120
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