Contributor Post Created with Sketch. Recommended by Ricochet Members Created with Sketch. Prospective Fact Check on Monsey Machete Attack

 

There has already been plenty of finger pointing over the attempted massacre of a group of Orthodox Jewish men in Monsey, New York. The FBI is now on the case. Whatever explanations are offered up, by whatever source, check them against the map and what we have been told about the location of the attack and the attacker’s life.

We are told that the attacker lives in Greenwood Lake and the attack occurred in Monsey, New York. This was not a resident of the same town, rather the attacker had to drive over 20 miles just to get from town to town. Further, we are given that the particular residence, the home of an Orthodox rabbi, was situated in the heart of an Orthodox community. So, the attacker, an outsider from a town 20 miles away, had to somehow know to bypass a number of other homes and to target this home before turning to the more obvious religious building next door.

As to the attacker, we are told by the New York Post that Grafton Thomas lived with his mother, that he had long term mental problems apparently starting in adulthood; that he had rambling hand-written notes and a hand-written resume that was loosely connected with reality. So, how does this fellow end up charging through the rabbi’s door swinging a machete? This is not on the same level as young black men or women accosting people on the street who wear identifiably Jewish garb.

The FBI is on this case, so Attorney General Barr is accountable for the outcome of the investigation. We should expect that he will not accept a coverup; whatever the facts may be, he should insist they be clearly told.

There are 35 comments.

Become a member to join the conversation. Or sign in if you're already a member.
  1. RightAngles Member

    I’d like to know why they cry “hate crime” at the drop of a hat unless it’s something like this one.

    • #1
    • December 30, 2019, at 6:09 PM PST
    • 12 likes
  2. Randy Webster Member

    RightAngles (View Comment):

    I’d like to know why they cry “hate crime” at the drop of a hat unless it’s something like this one.

    No you wouldn’t.

    • #2
    • December 30, 2019, at 6:24 PM PST
    • 12 likes
  3. Vance Richards Member
    Vance Richards Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Clifford A. Brown: As to the attacker, we are told by the New York Post that Grafton Thomas lived with his mother, that he had long term mental problems

    He may have had mental problems but, as you point out, he went well out of his way to find a Hasidic rabbi’s house . . . during Hanukkah. Depression and Anti-Semitism are not related.

    This is not far from my neck of the woods so let me just say that your driving app may be right for the middle of the night, but at rush hour you are looking at more like 50 minutes to an hour. 

    • #3
    • December 30, 2019, at 6:29 PM PST
    • 12 likes
  4. Clifford A. Brown Contributor
    Clifford A. Brown

    RightAngles (View Comment):

    I’d like to know why they cry “hate crime” at the drop of a hat unless it’s something like this one.

    So far, the FBI charged violation of 18 U.S.C. Section 247 (a)(2):

    §247. Damage to religious property; obstruction of persons in the free exercise of religious beliefs
    (a) Whoever, in any of the circumstances referred to in subsection (b) of this section-

    (1) intentionally defaces, damages, or destroys any religious real property, because of the religious character of that property, or attempts to do so; or

    (2) intentionally obstructs, by force or threat of force, including by threat of force against religious real property, any person in the enjoyment of that person’s free exercise of religious beliefs, or attempts to do so;

    Move down two sections and you get 18 U.S.C. Section 249 – Hate Crime Acts

    (a)In General.—(1)Offenses involving actual or perceived race, color, religion, or national origin.—Whoever, whether or not acting under color of law, willfully causes bodily injury to any person or, through the use of fire, a firearm, a dangerous weapon, or an explosive or incendiary device, attempts to cause bodily injury to any person, because of the actual or perceived race, color, religion, or national origin of any person—(A)shall be imprisoned not more than 10 years, fined in accordance with this title, or both; and
    (B)shall be imprisoned for any term of years or for life, fined in accordance with this title, or both, if—(i)death results from the offense; or
    (ii)the offense includes kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill.
    (2)Offenses involving actual or perceived religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability.—(A)In general.—Whoever, whether or not acting under color of law, in any circumstance described in subparagraph (B) or paragraph (3), willfully causes bodily injury to any person or, through the use of fire, a firearm, a dangerous weapon, or an explosive or incendiary device, attempts to cause bodily injury to any person, because of the actual or perceived religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability of any person—(i)shall be imprisoned not more than 10 years, fined in accordance with this title, or both; and
    (ii)shall be imprisoned for any term of years or for life, fined in accordance with this title, or both, if—(I)death results from the offense; or
    (II)the offense includes kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill.
    (B)Circumstances described.—For purposes of subparagraph (A), the circumstances described in this subparagraph are that—(i)the conduct described in subparagraph (A) occurs during the course of, or as the result of, the travel of the defendant or the victim—(I)across a State line or national border; or
    (II)using a channel, facility, or instrumentality of interstate or foreign commerce;
    (ii)the defendant uses a channel, facility, or instrumentality of interstate or foreign commerce in connection with the conduct described in subparagraph (A);
    (iii)in connection with the conduct described in subparagraph (A), the defendant employs a firearm, dangerous weapon, explosive or incendiary device, or other weapon that has traveled in interstate or foreign commerce; or
    (iv)the conduct described in subparagraph (A)—(I)interferes with commercial or other economic activity in which the victim is engaged at the time of the conduct; or
    (II)otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce.
    (3)Offenses occurring in the special maritime or territorial jurisdiction of the united states.—Whoever, within the special maritime or territorial jurisdiction of the United States, engages in conduct described in paragraph (1) or in paragraph (2)(A) (without regard to whether that conduct occurred in a circumstance described in paragraph (2)(B)) shall be subject to the same penalties as prescribed in those paragraphs.
    (4)Guidelines.—All prosecutions conducted by the United States under this section shall be undertaken pursuant to guidelines issued by the Attorney General, or the designee of the Attorney General, to be included in the United States Attorneys’ Manual that shall establish neutral and objective criteria for determining whether a crime was committed because of the actual or perceived status of any person.
    (b)Certification Requirement.—(1)In general.—No prosecution of any offense described in this subsection may be undertaken by the United States, except under the certification in writing of the Attorney General, or a designee, that—(A)the State does not have jurisdiction;
    (B)the State has requested that the Federal Government assume jurisdiction;
    (C)the verdict or sentence obtained pursuant to State charges left demonstratively unvindicated the Federal interest in eradicating bias-motivated violence; or
    (D)a prosecution by the United States is in the public interest and necessary to secure substantial justice.
    (2)Rule of construction.—Nothing in this subsection shall be construed to limit the authority of Federal officers, or a Federal grand jury, to investigate possible violations of this section.
    (c)Definitions.—In this section—(1)the term “bodily injury” has the meaning given such term in section 1365(h)(4) of this title, but does not include solely emotional or psychological harm to the victim;
    (2)the term “explosive or incendiary device” has the meaning given such term in section 232 of this title;
    (3)the term “firearm” has the meaning given such term in section 921(a) of this title;
    (4)the term “gender identity” means actual or perceived gender-related characteristics; and
    (5)the term “State” includes the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, and any other territory or possession of the United States.
    (d)Statute of Limitations.—(1)Offenses not resulting in death.—Except as provided in paragraph (2), no person shall be prosecuted, tried, or punished for any offense under this section unless the indictment for such offense is found, or the information for such offense is instituted, not later than 7 years after the date on which the offense was committed.
    (2)Death resulting offenses.—An indictment or information alleging that an offense under this section resulted in death may be found or instituted at any time without limitation.

    You can see why the feds have to be very careful in throwing the term around, whatever pundits and politicians say.

    • #4
    • December 30, 2019, at 7:58 PM PST
    • 6 likes
  5. Clifford A. Brown Contributor
    Clifford A. Brown

    The FBI complaint is the first indicator of possible awareness of “Black Israelite” ideas. The FBI agent asserts claims about what she says she read in a notebook. Of course, we all have reason to question FBI sworn assertions, so the court should have required at least copies of the referenced pages.

    • #5
    • December 30, 2019, at 8:17 PM PST
    • 6 likes
  6. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member

    Clifford, I want to make sure that I understand the implication of your post. Are you suggesting that the attacker did not act alone? Or are you suggesting that there may be some unknown personal connection between the attacker and one or more of the victims? Or perhaps both?

    There’s not yet evidence of such possibilities, but I don’t think that either of these suspicions are unreasonable in the circumstances.

    • #6
    • December 31, 2019, at 7:45 AM PST
    • 3 likes
  7. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Clifford, I want to make sure that I understand the implication of your post. Are you suggesting that the attacker did not act alone? Or are you suggesting that there may be some unknown personal connection between the attacker and one or more of the victims? Or perhaps both?

    There’s not yet evidence of such possibilities, but I don’t think that either of these suspicions are unreasonable in the circumstances.

    I think the idea is that the authorities seem to be going out of their way to dismiss this as a lone nut who didn’t necessarily target Jews. The long drive to get to this particular location would argue against that.

     

     

     

    • #7
    • December 31, 2019, at 7:51 AM PST
    • 9 likes
  8. GrannyDude Member

    It seems that the attacker was definitely full on mentally ill. He kept journals—literate schizophrenics often do—filled with, well, crazy stuff. Hitler, Nazis and whatnot. It wouldn’t be surprising if he mentioned the Black Hebrew Israelites, or identified with them somehow. 

    As with the shootings of black men by the police, every situation is not like every other situation. This looks to me—at the moment, anyway—like yet another case of a severely mentally ill person not receiving anything like the level of care required to manage his illness. So he’s been suffering for years and now he has caused horrible suffering to others. 

    There’s a young man here in Maine who bludgeoned his mother, grandparents and a caregiver to death with a baseball bat last year. God knows what he thought he was doing—killing demons of one kind or another, I suppose—but there’s nothing to suggest that he “hated” his relatives in any deliberate sense. 

    If it hadn’t come on the heels of the Jersey City episode and all the random bashings, the root cause of this calamity would’ve been understood (correctly, I think?) as mental illness and our lamentable unwillingness to deal with it. 

     

     

    • #8
    • December 31, 2019, at 7:57 AM PST
    • 4 likes
  9. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    GrannyDude (View Comment):

    It seems that the attacker was definitely full on mentally ill. He kept journals—literate schizophrenics often do—filled with, well, crazy stuff. Hitler, Nazis and whatnot. It wouldn’t be surprising if he mentioned the Black Hebrew Israelites, or identified with them somehow.

    As with the shootings of black men by the police, every situation is not like every other situation. This looks to me—at the moment, anyway—like yet another case of a severely mentally ill person not receiving anything like the level of care required to manage his illness. So he’s been suffering for years and now he has caused horrible suffering to others.

    There’s a young man here in Maine who bludgeoned his mother, grandparents and a caregiver to death with a baseball bat last year. God knows what he thought he was doing—killing demons of one kind or another, I suppose—but there’s nothing to suggest that he “hated” his relatives in any deliberate sense.

    If it hadn’t come on the heels of the Jersey City episode and all the random bashings, the root cause of this calamity would’ve been understood (correctly, I think?) as mental illness and our lamentable unwillingness to deal with it.

    Yes, but, high functioning mentally ill. Apparently he was able to navigate society well enough to locate a community of orthodox Jews, the house in which they’d be celebrating Hanukkah (and know that it is the season of Hanukkah), and drive himself to the location armed with a machete and ill-intent. We used to call people like this dangerous psychopaths and keep them locked up, back when we dealt with reality.

    • #9
    • December 31, 2019, at 8:10 AM PST
    • 13 likes
  10. GrannyDude Member

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    GrannyDude (View Comment):

    It seems that the attacker was definitely full on mentally ill. He kept journals—literate schizophrenics often do—filled with, well, crazy stuff. Hitler, Nazis and whatnot. It wouldn’t be surprising if he mentioned the Black Hebrew Israelites, or identified with them somehow.

    As with the shootings of black men by the police, every situation is not like every other situation. This looks to me—at the moment, anyway—like yet another case of a severely mentally ill person not receiving anything like the level of care required to manage his illness. So he’s been suffering for years and now he has caused horrible suffering to others.

    There’s a young man here in Maine who bludgeoned his mother, grandparents and a caregiver to death with a baseball bat last year. God knows what he thought he was doing—killing demons of one kind or another, I suppose—but there’s nothing to suggest that he “hated” his relatives in any deliberate sense.

    If it hadn’t come on the heels of the Jersey City episode and all the random bashings, the root cause of this calamity would’ve been understood (correctly, I think?) as mental illness and our lamentable unwillingness to deal with it.

    Yes, but, high functioning mentally ill. Apparently he was able to navigate society well enough to locate a community of orthodox Jews, the house in which they’d be celebrating Hanukkah (and know that it is the season of Hanukkah), and drive himself to the location armed with a machete and ill-intent. We used to call people like this dangerous psychopaths and keep them locked up, back when we dealt with reality.

    I agree, at least in the sense that I believe that he needed to be institutionalized long before this event. It’s worth reading Aaron Miller’s latest post to get a better understanding of how mental illness presents itself; I’ve got a loved one with a mental illness and, at least in the lead-up to full-on psychosis, she could drive a car, go to work, make plans and function…and she was bonkers. Not violent, but definitely bonkers. 

    A young man who lived near us bludgeoned his mother, grandparents and a care giver to death a couple of years ago. He grew up and went to high school in the area, was well-known and loved, had recently graduated from a prestigious music conservatory. His parents recognized his illness and feared that he was suicidal; his mother had driven to Boston to pick him up and bring him home, stopping to see her parents along the way. Her son got hold of a baseball bat and killed everyone in the house, telling the police later that he had “freed” them.

    The onset of serious mental illnesses often happens in young adulthood and sometimes the progression is swift and ferocious. Grafton Thomas (Monsey) had been very obviously ill for some time. I don’t fault his parents for failing to prevent the attack; even if they knew he was “decompensating” and off his meds, there is almost nothing that can be done for a mentally ill adult against his (damaged, delusional) will, and not all that much even if he is cooperative, unless you’re ready and able to spend an astounding amount of money.

     

     

    • #10
    • December 31, 2019, at 9:10 AM PST
    • 9 likes
  11. lowtech redneck Coolidge

    GrannyDude (View Comment):

    It seems that the attacker was definitely full on mentally ill. He kept journals—literate schizophrenics often do—filled with, well, crazy stuff. Hitler, Nazis and whatnot. It wouldn’t be surprising if he mentioned the Black Hebrew Israelites, or identified with them somehow.

    As with the shootings of black men by the police, every situation is not like every other situation. This looks to me—at the moment, anyway—like yet another case of a severely mentally ill person not receiving anything like the level of care required to manage his illness. So he’s been suffering for years and now he has caused horrible suffering to others.

    There’s a young man here in Maine who bludgeoned his mother, grandparents and a caregiver to death with a baseball bat last year. God knows what he thought he was doing—killing demons of one kind or another, I suppose—but there’s nothing to suggest that he “hated” his relatives in any deliberate sense.

    If it hadn’t come on the heels of the Jersey City episode and all the random bashings, the root cause of this calamity would’ve been understood (correctly, I think?) as mental illness and our lamentable unwillingness to deal with it.

     

     

    A major difference between these two incidents is that the man who bludgeoned his family and caregiver committed his crimes against people he knew well in the course of his everyday life, with no apparent motivation preceding the onset of his mental illness. In the New Jersey case, I suspect his mental illness aggravated an anti-Semitic foundation that existed prior to its full onset, and the victim profile suggest someone chosen outside of a full-blown psychotic episode.

    I’m not even a particularly well-informed bystander, much less an experienced expert who knows the full meaning or implications of what a ‘psychotic episode’ is, but these factors do make me inclined to believe this was more than just a consequence of poorly managed mental illness.

    • #11
    • December 31, 2019, at 9:52 AM PST
    • 5 likes
  12. Vance Richards Member
    Vance Richards Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Clifford, I want to make sure that I understand the implication of your post. Are you suggesting that the attacker did not act alone? Or are you suggesting that there may be some unknown personal connection between the attacker and one or more of the victims? Or perhaps both?

    There’s not yet evidence of such possibilities, but I don’t think that either of these suspicions are unreasonable in the circumstances.

    I think the idea is that the authorities seem to be going out of their way to dismiss this as a lone nut who didn’t necessarily target Jews. The long drive to get to this particular location would argue against that.

     

    Yes, not a crazy looking to randomly kill someone but a crazy guy looking to kill Jews.

    • #12
    • December 31, 2019, at 10:25 AM PST
    • 5 likes
  13. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member

    Clifford A. Brown (View Comment):

    The FBI complaint is the first indicator of possible awareness of “Black Israelite” ideas. The FBI agent asserts claims about what she says she read in a notebook. Of course, we all have reason to question FBI sworn assertions, so the court should have required at least copies of the referenced pages.

    Clifford, I think that it’s “Black Hebrew Israelite,” not just “Black Israelite.” Unless you’re referring to a different group. It does strike me as quite a fringe group, which I first learned of in connection with the Covington student incident.

    • #13
    • December 31, 2019, at 11:36 AM PST
    • 4 likes
  14. James Gawron Thatcher
    James Gawron Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Cliff,

    You are right on target. Of course, this guy has a long history of mental illness but there is nothing random or triggering about a Chassidic Rabbi’s house in Monsey. How does a guy decide to target this Rabbi on Hannuka? We have seen that radicalization can happen quite quickly. Only a year or two of exposure and someone probably predisposed can fall into an obsession. The target had to have been suggested to him by something or someone. This is important because even very small organizations of this type are still very dangerous.

    If the FBI does their job, I expect there will be more coming on this.

    Regards,

    Jim

    • #14
    • December 31, 2019, at 11:49 AM PST
    • 8 likes
  15. Misthiocracy got drunk and Member
    Misthiocracy got drunk and Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Vance Richards (View Comment):
    He may have had mental problems but, as you point out, he went well out of his way to find a Hasidic rabbi’s house . . . during Hanukkah. Depression and Anti-Semitism are not related.

    They sorta kinda can be, because depression and obsession can often be co-related. A pathologically obsessive person just needs something to obsess about, and Jews can be a convenient object of obsession for such a pathology.

    That’s not to say that something else couldn’t also be going on, but without more evidence one cannot immediately rule out the explanation that he was a lone nut whose obsession just happened to be focused on Jews.

    • #15
    • December 31, 2019, at 11:56 AM PST
    • 2 likes
  16. TBA Coolidge
    TBA

    Vance Richards (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Clifford, I want to make sure that I understand the implication of your post. Are you suggesting that the attacker did not act alone? Or are you suggesting that there may be some unknown personal connection between the attacker and one or more of the victims? Or perhaps both?

    There’s not yet evidence of such possibilities, but I don’t think that either of these suspicions are unreasonable in the circumstances.

    I think the idea is that the authorities seem to be going out of their way to dismiss this as a lone nut who didn’t necessarily target Jews. The long drive to get to this particular location would argue against that.

     

    Yes, not a crazy looking to randomly kill someone but a crazy guy looking to kill Jews.

    There is something dissatisfying in classing it as untreated mental illness and anti-Semitism; if we can’t properly slot a problem, we can’t properly ‘address’ it (not that either of those things usually has any effect). 

    • #16
    • December 31, 2019, at 11:58 AM PST
    • 1 like
  17. TBA Coolidge
    TBA

    Misthiocracy grudgingly (View Comment):

    Vance Richards (View Comment):
    He may have had mental problems but, as you point out, he went well out of his way to find a Hasidic rabbi’s house . . . during Hanukkah. Depression and Anti-Semitism are not related.

    They sorta kinda are, because depression and obsession can often be co-related. A pathologically obsessive person just needs something to obsess about, and Jews can be a convenient object of obsession for such a pathology.

    That’s not to say that something else couldn’t also be going on, but one cannot immediately rule out the explanation that he was a lone nut whose obsession just happened to be focused on Jews.

    Consider our movies with vigilantes or vampires who only kill ‘the bad people’. 

    The murderous and crazy want to be understood and ‘vindicated’ in their actions, they are still human beings in part, and if they pick a target they believe other people hate (or in @GrannyDude‘s example love, but what greater love is there than to save them by killing them?) they imagine they will still be thought of as ‘ok’ in some sense.

    • #17
    • December 31, 2019, at 12:13 PM PST
    • 2 likes
  18. GrannyDude Member

    Misthiocracy grudgingly (View Comment):

    Vance Richards (View Comment):
    He may have had mental problems but, as you point out, he went well out of his way to find a Hasidic rabbi’s house . . . during Hanukkah. Depression and Anti-Semitism are not related.

    They sorta kinda can be, because depression and obsession can often be co-related. A pathologically obsessive person just needs something to obsess about, and Jews can be a convenient object of obsession for such a pathology.

    That’s not to say that something else couldn’t also be going on, but without more evidence one cannot immediately rule out the explanation that he was a lone nut whose obsession just happened to be focused on Jews.

    Both-And.

    Psychotic people with delusions of grandeur generally claim to be Jesus in Christian countries and Krishna in Hindu ones. (Edit: Even psychotic atheists.) The content of the delusion, as mentioned elsewhere, does not have to be created out of whole cloth but is, rather, some element in what we might call ordinary society or an ordinary personality, just blown way out of proportion.

    The practical question is: What course of action had the best chance of preventing this (or some similar) attack? If your answer is “reducing anti-Semitism in our culture/sub-cultures,” I disagree…but sympathetically.

    • #18
    • December 31, 2019, at 12:16 PM PST
    • 5 likes
  19. Brian Inactive

    Watch this 
    https://twitter.com/Israelcohen911/status/1211553439924273153

    I don’t care where this person came from if he know the Rabbi or not.

    it was an anti-semitic attack in a continuing long string of attacks. If someone else was involved great I hope they rot in jail but that is not the point & looking for conspiracies only serves to obfuscate the actual issue 

     

    • #19
    • December 31, 2019, at 12:26 PM PST
    • 2 likes
  20. GrannyDude Member

    My mentally-ill loved one, when psychotic, was convinced that she was an architect and had designed the hospital she was, at the time, confined to. She is not an architect. She has never shown the slightest interest in architecture either before or after this episode. Had you met her on that day, she would’ve nonetheless convinced you that she was the Frank Lloyd Wright of loony-bin design.

    My theory is that the content of delusions or hallucinations are a little like the content of dreams. There are (metaphorically speaking) file folders in our heads that tend to pop open during the general, neurological tidy-up that goes on in there while we sleep.

    If there is a particularly fat file folder, or one you’d just had open recently during waking hours (e.g. “something weird wrong with the car” or “I hope Mom’s mammogram turned out okay” ) you might dream about a first day, perhaps combined with whatever was in another folder that happened to pop open at the same moment, and dream (or hallucinate) about a car with painfully squashed headlights, plus maybe a cinnamon bun or a wallaby, who knows why? 

     

     

     

    • #20
    • December 31, 2019, at 12:31 PM PST
    • 6 likes
  21. ParisParamus Member
    ParisParamus Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    This sounds like mental illness—the vessel—filled with antisemitism. It doesn’t have to be either or. Jews are prohibited from hunting, but it’s New York State that prohibits them from having guns to defend themselves.

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    Clifford, I want to make sure that I understand the implication of your post. Are you suggesting that the attacker did not act alone? Or are you suggesting that there may be some unknown personal connection between the attacker and one or more of the victims? Or perhaps both?

    There’s not yet evidence of such possibilities, but I don’t think that either of these suspicions are unreasonable in the circumstances.

    I think the idea is that the authorities seem to be going out of their way to dismiss this as a lone nut who didn’t necessarily target Jews. The long drive to get to this particular location would argue against that.

     

     

     

     

    • #21
    • December 31, 2019, at 1:30 PM PST
    • 2 likes
  22. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member

    GrannyDude (View Comment):

    The practical question is: What course of action had the best chance of preventing this (or some similar) attack? If your answer is “reducing anti-Semitism in our culture/sub-cultures,” I disagree…but sympathetically.

    Generally speaking, the best chance of preventing violent crime is to lock up offenders, early and for a long time. It is a very unpleasant option. It is generally what we have been doing over the past 20-30 years, and is probably responsible for the significant decline in crime.

    The worst cost is not the government expense of incarceration, though that is significant. It is truly terrible and tragic that so many people are imprisoned, but I think that it is necessary for the protection of others.

    I worry that this successful, though costly, approach is being rejected not only in Leftist areas like NYC, but even among conservatives. I worry about the criminal justice reform passed at the federal level in 2019, though I haven’t investigated it in detail. It did have bipartisan support, including President Trump, Vice President Pence, and Senator Mike Lee (of Utah, who is quite a solid conservative guy generally). However, it was opposed by several Republican Senators, including Tom Cotton, Ben Sasse, and Marco Rubio.

    • #22
    • December 31, 2019, at 2:48 PM PST
    • 3 likes
  23. Randy Webster Member

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    The worst cost is not the government expense of incarceration, though that is significantIt is truly terrible and tragic that so many people are imprisoned

    The worst cost is not incarcerating criminals. I’m going by memory, which could be faulty, but Thomas Sowell says that the cost of incarcerating a career criminal in Britain is like 15,000 pounds a year, but the cost of leaving them out is about 60,000 pounds a year. The difference is that the cost of the free criminals is paid by civilians, and the cost of incarceration is paid by the government, which makes it look bad.

    • #23
    • December 31, 2019, at 3:24 PM PST
    • 7 likes
  24. Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… Member

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    The worst cost is not the government expense of incarceration, though that is significantIt is truly terrible and tragic that so many people are imprisoned

    The worst cost is not incarcerating criminals. I’m going by memory, which could be faulty, but Thomas Sowell says that the cost of incarcerating a career criminal in Britain is like 15,000 pounds a year, but the cost of leaving them out is about 60,000 pounds a year. The difference is that the cost of the free criminals is paid by civilians, and the cost of incarceration is paid by the government, which makes it look bad.

    I agree, except in the analysis, the resulting lack of crime is not a cost of incarceration, it is a benefit.

    There is a genuine and serious cost in the loss of liberty of those incarcerated. It is a terrible and serious cost, even though it is arguably warranted by their criminal actions. Some loss of liberty is warranted, but when debating whether the proper sentence for a particular crime is, say, 5 or 10 years, I don’t seen an obvious reason to choose one over the other. The punishment should be proportional in some degree, so that a more serious crime receives a harsher sentence. Beyond this, I generally think that the cost-benefit analysis should govern, and should probably disregard the cost on the convict himself.

    • #24
    • December 31, 2019, at 3:31 PM PST
    • 3 likes
  25. GrannyDude Member

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):
    Generally speaking, the best chance of preventing violent crime is to lock up offenders, early and for a long time.

    Yup. And the best chance of preventing the deterioration of a mentally ill person’s condition (whether or not this may result in violence) is early and sustained, preferably residential, treatment. For some, supportive housing may need to be provided for a lifetime. For others, once the skills are learned and the medications balanced, transition to truly independent life will be possible.

    Either way, the same cost-benefit analysis applies: Lives saved, terrible pain and trauma averted, citizens granted better and longer lives. 

    • #25
    • December 31, 2019, at 5:10 PM PST
    • 4 likes
  26. Clifford A. Brown Contributor
    Clifford A. Brown

    Jerry Giordano (Arizona Patrio… (View Comment):

    GrannyDude (View Comment):

    The practical question is: What course of action had the best chance of preventing this (or some similar) attack? If your answer is “reducing anti-Semitism in our culture/sub-cultures,” I disagree…but sympathetically.

    Generally speaking, the best chance of preventing violent crime is to lock up offenders, early and for a long time. It is a very unpleasant option. It is generally what we have been doing over the past 20-30 years, and is probably responsible for the significant decline in crime.

    The worst cost is not the government expense of incarceration, though that is significant. It is truly terrible and tragic that so many people are imprisoned, but I think that it is necessary for the protection of others.

    I worry that this successful, though costly, approach is being rejected not only in Leftist areas like NYC, but even among conservatives. I worry about the criminal justice reform passed at the federal level in 2019, though I haven’t investigated it in detail. It did have bipartisan support, including President Trump, Vice President Pence, and Senator Mike Lee (of Utah, who is quite a solid conservative guy generally). However, it was opposed by several Republican Senators, including Tom Cotton, Ben Sasse, and Marco Rubio.

    The real issue you raise is not relevant to either attack in a house of worship this past week. The Texas killer had a long history of mental illness and a violent personality. He had a series of minor scrapes with the law. He briefly channelled that in boxing. He terrified his first and second wife. However, if we locked up all such and threw away the key, we’d need a massive system of prison colonies. The New York machete-wielder had no such reported personality or history of felony violence. 

    • #26
    • January 1, 2020, at 1:55 AM PST
    • 3 likes
  27. Petty Boozswha Inactive

    TBA (View Comment):
    There is something dissatisfying in classing it as untreated mental illness and anti-Semitism; if we can’t properly slot a problem, we can’t properly ‘address’ it (not that either of those things usually has any effect). 

    At a different time and place he might have wanted to kill John Lennon or Ronald Reagan, he grew up in a community that suffers no sanction for wallowing in anti-Semitism and that’s where he focused his dysfunction. Until Blacks in general, and Black immigrants in particular, are held responsible for their slurs on Hymies in Hymietown this will continue.

    • #27
    • January 1, 2020, at 2:50 AM PST
    • 4 likes
  28. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Petty Boozswha (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):
    There is something dissatisfying in classing it as untreated mental illness and anti-Semitism; if we can’t properly slot a problem, we can’t properly ‘address’ it (not that either of those things usually has any effect).

    At a different time and place he might have wanted to kill John Lennon or Ronald Reagan, he grew up in a community that suffers no sanction for wallowing in anti-Semitism and that’s where he focused his dysfunction. Until Blacks in general, and Black immigrants in particular, are held responsible for their slurs on Hymies in Hymietown this will continue.

    It seems to me people have the right to their prejudices (freedom of conscience is presupposed by free speech). Are you suggesting government should hold bigots and antisemites responsible somehow (minus illegal behavior)? I hope you mean black communities need to reform themselves (in the way we’re continually told Islam is capable of being reformed — without evidence). Social stigma worked on cigarette smoking, so now the Left is trying it on gun ownership. God help us if they succeed.

    It’s a delicate operation removing dangerous psychopaths to secure society. I’m not saying it shouldn’t be done. I’m saying we should proceed cautiously, and not necessarily with “hate speech laws” and by giving more power to government. Unfortunately, there will always be nuts causing tragedy. I realize I’m not really offering any solutions.

    • #28
    • January 1, 2020, at 5:50 AM PST
    • 4 likes
  29. Chris Member

    Brian (View Comment):

    Watch this
    https://twitter.com/Israelcohen911/status/1211553439924273153

    I don’t care where this person came from if he know the Rabbi or not.

    it was an anti-semitic attack in a continuing long string of attacks. If someone else was involved great I hope they rot in jail but that is not the point & looking for conspiracies only serves to obfuscate the actual issue

     

    That is a troubling video. It is one thing to read of random attacks, another to see them.

    There has to be a concerted effort to end this and the media has to be shamed about its willful blindness.

    • #29
    • January 1, 2020, at 6:39 AM PST
    • 4 likes
  30. Randy Webster Member

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    I realize I’m not really offering any solutions.

    The conceit that all problems have solutions, especially government solutions, has caused a lot of suffering.

    • #30
    • January 1, 2020, at 6:46 AM PST
    • 5 likes

Comments are closed because this post is more than six months old. Please write a new post if you would like to continue this conversation.