‘Deemed Presented’

 

There is a lot of discussion about Nancy Pelosi holding up presentment of the Articles of Impeachment as a tactic to …..whatever it is that it “stops.” The Constitution is pretty clear that the House gets to propose and the Senate gets to dispose. It was also made clear that the Senate is both judge and jury in its proceeding to “try” the House indictment.

So, how does the Senate keep from being held hostage by the House? Simply pass a rule that having taken “judicial notice” of the adoption by the House of two Articles of Impeachment on December 18, 2019, which matter was publicly witnessed by the nation at large. The Articles shall be “deemed presented” to the Senate whether or not Her Majesty, Queen Nancy, deigns to formally present it. The Senate will then proceed to calendar it and try the matter per its own rules.

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  1. Rodin Member
    Rodin
    @Rodin

    Misthiocracy grudgingly (View Comment):

    Jager (View Comment):

    Misthiocracy grudgingly (View Comment):

    Section 2 Clause 5 of the US Constitution reads: “The House of Representatives … shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.”

    As such, I don’t believe that the Senate can “deem” impeachment as having occurred. Only the House can decide on its own procedures. It’s up to the House to direct the Speaker to deliver the articles of impeachment to the Senate. If the House decides not to so direct the Speaker, then the Speaker can do as he/she deems appropriate.

    “I have neither eyes to see nor tongue to speak in this place but as this House is pleased to direct me.”

    Of course one can argue that voting to adopt the articles of impeachment implies that the Speaker has been directed to deliver those articles to the Senate. However, since the Supreme Court has no jurisdiction over House procedure, only the voters can adjudicate that particular question.

    You are right. There may be some wiggle room. The Senate is not taking the Power of Impeachment from the House. The House as already done their work. They took the vote, Trump is impeached.

    Rather than Deeming Impeachment, it would be more Deeming that they have received proper notice of an impeachment (by virtue of the House vote and the House Press Conferences) and it is ripe for the Senate’s consideration.

    Another possibility: I’d suggest that the Chief Justice, as the presiding officer for a trial in the Senate, could refuse to start hearing arguments until the articles of impeachment are delivered to the Senate.

    While it’s true that the Senate can vote to overrule the Chief Justice on questions of procedure, I’d submit that it’s debatable whether the Senate can vote to compel the Chief Justice to hear arguments in the first place. If he simply refuses to show up in the Senate chamber until the articles of impeachment are delivered, then no impeachment trial can take place.

    You are highlighting how the various components of this process can turn this into a total clusterfark. As stated in #27, misbehavior can put the entire constitutional framework in jeopardy. The progressives in this country have decided that if they can’t have a constitution that does not constrain them, then no constitution will do just as well. And too many people who should be allied with Trump in this battle are prepared to lose their constitution rather than support him. Pathetic.

    • #31
  2. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    I find this a little mysterious. Doesn’t the Impeachment Vote “count” as having the President impeached? Or is it only official when Nancy Pelosi hands over a piece of paper to a proper representative of the Senate? If so, does this mean that the President is not actually impeached yet? And if so, all the newspapers are jumping the gun to have announced his impeachment.

    (How arrogant to quote myself!)

    Andrew McCarthy seems to be of the opinion that Impeachment has not yet taken place because Pelosi has not officially handed over the articles of Impeachment to the Senate.

    I had a wild thought.  Pelosi may NEVER hand over the Articles of Impeachment.  We all know, and the Democrat leadership knows, that a Senate trial would be a Hyuuuuuge propaganda victory for the Republicans and would expose the truth about Democrat lying and underhanded tactics.  The only way to prevent this, and still claim the victory of Impeachment, is to sit on the papers till Kingdom Come.  They will have the very plausible excuse that “everyone knows Trump will be acquitted by the Republican majority,” “and of course the Republicans will rig the trial,” so there will be no good reason for holding a trial.  They will have to suffer some disgruntlement among their base, but not as much as a totally embarrassing trial would inflict.  I see this as their only way out of a disastrous situation.

    Is this nuts?  Am I  starting to think  like a Democrat?? If so, should I be confined to a padded cell???

    • #32
  3. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Jager (View Comment):
    The House as already done their work. They took the vote, Trump is impeached. 

    Not until the articles are presented to the Senate. They voted to approve articles of impeachment. All impeachments require a trial.

    If there is no trial, then he hasn’t been impeached.

    Articles have been approved, sure. Until the House hands them over to the Senate, the impeachment is incomplete.

    A job half done is as good as none.

    • #33
  4. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Instugator (View Comment):
    Not until the articles are presented to the Senate.

    Constitutional citation for that?

     

    • #34
  5. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):
    Not until the articles are presented to the Senate.

    Constitutional citation for that?

    Article I, Section 3, Clauses 6 and 7 provide:

    The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments.

    If the document doesn’t result in a trial in the Senate then it hasn’t risen above the level of a resolution. Regardless of the title on the document.

    It certainly isn’t an impeachment, since impeachments are solely tried in the Senate, not the courts nor the press.

    I mean, just because the House calls some document “the Affordable Care Act” doesn’t mean that it provides care that is affordable.

    • #35
  6. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):
    Not until the articles are presented to the Senate.

    Constitutional citation for that?

    Article I, Section 3, Clauses 6 and 7 provide:

    The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments.

    If the document doesn’t result in a trial in the Senate then it hasn’t risen above the level of a resolution. Regardless of the title on the document.

    It certainly isn’t an impeachment, since impeachments are solely tried in the Senate, not the courts nor the press.

    I mean, just because the House calls some document “the Affordable Care Act” doesn’t mean that it provides care that is affordable.

    I meant, where does it say the House has to present it before the Senate take s it up?

    The vote has been taken.  It’s been in all the newspapers and TV newscasts.  I presume it’s in the Congressional record.  The House’s role is complete.  “The Senate shale have the *SOLE* power to try Impeachments”.  The House doesn’t have the power to stop it.

     

     

     

    • #36
  7. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):
    The vote has been taken.

    Sure, a vote on what?

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):
    It’s been in all the newspapers and TV newscasts.

    They get things wrong all the time. How do you know it is official?

     

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):
    I presume it’s in the Congressional record.

    If it hasn’t let the house then it hasn’t happened. Where is the receipt?

     

    • #37
  8. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):
    The vote has been taken.

    Sure, a vote on what?

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):
    It’s been in all the newspapers and TV newscasts.

    They get things wrong all the time. How do you know it is official?

     

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):
    I presume it’s in the Congressional record.

    If it hasn’t let the house then it hasn’t happened. Where is the receipt?

     

    So if the Senate were to refuse to allow the House to deliver the papers (lock the door and claim there’s nobody home?), then he’s not impeached?  But how can that work when house has “sole” power of impeachment?

    The Senate is not part of impeachment. They have no role. Therefore, purely as a matter of logic it can’t matter whether paperwork has been delivered or not.  

    The impeachment is done when the vote is done.  Just as the senate has no power to influence the impeachment role of the house, the House has no power to influence the trial in the Senate.

    • #38
  9. Steven Seward Member
    Steven Seward
    @StevenSeward

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):So if the Senate were to refuse to allow the House to deliver the papers (lock the door and claim there’s nobody home?), then he’s not impeached? But how can that work when house has “sole” power of impeachment?

    The Senate is not part of impeachment. They have no role. Therefore, purely as a matter of logic it can’t matter whether paperwork has been delivered or not.

    The impeachment is done when the vote is done. Just as the senate has no power to influence the impeachment role of the house, the House has no power to influence the trial in the Senate.

    Your argument sounds fine to me, but there are strange things that take place in bureaucracies.

    • #39
  10. Rodin Member
    Rodin
    @Rodin

    Steven Seward (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):So if the Senate were to refuse to allow the House to deliver the papers (lock the door and claim there’s nobody home?), then he’s not impeached? But how can that work when house has “sole” power of impeachment?

    The Senate is not part of impeachment. They have no role. Therefore, purely as a matter of logic it can’t matter whether paperwork has been delivered or not.

    The impeachment is done when the vote is done. Just as the senate has no power to influence the impeachment role of the house, the House has no power to influence the trial in the Senate.

    Your argument sounds fine to me, but there are strange things that take place in bureaucracies.

    Apparently impeachment is like Schroedinger’s cat: It’s both alive and dead until presented to the Senate.

    • #40
  11. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):
    The Senate is not part of impeachment. They have no role.

    Sure they do, they have sole power to try all impeachments. For that to happen, something official from the other body has to arrive saying “we have impeached so-and-so”. Such delivery hasn’t happened.

    • #41
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