Are You Clamoring for an Electric Car?

 

(With my apologies to Gary McVey, prepare for one of my incendiary posts.)

Is a Tesla or a Chevy Bolt, or a Nissan Leaf on your Christmas list this year? Can you hardly wait to ditch that gas-guzzler in the driveway and replace it with a vehicle that you can “fill up” from an installation in your garage, at a lot less than a tank of Regular?

Well, if that’s what you see in your future, so do most of the world’s car manufacturers. There probably isn’t a car manufacturer who isn’t working on designing and building an electric car, either purpose-designed or just replacing the internal-combustion engine in a model they already build with a big battery. General Motors has already announced their coming “All-electric future.” The European Union is mandating more and more strict emissions rules for vehicles sold there, and their carmakers like BMW, Renault, Daimler, Fiat, and Volvo are all touting their electric vehicles.

But you might wish to wait a moment before you go all-in on electric, especially if you live in the United States outside of a central large city. First, let’s check out the price of that electric car versus its gas-powered brother. The Nissan Leaf retails for about $30,000. Its near twin, the Nissan Versa, costs about $19,000. An electric Chevy Bolt will set you back about $36,000. Its similar brother, the Cruze, is about $17,000. See a pattern developing here? In the past, you could rely on a nice Federal tax credit for your electric car, to help mitigate that huge price differential, but not anymore. Most carmakers have sold enough cars that they don’t earn any tax credit now. So, it looks like GM’s All-Electric Future will be a lot more expensive than its Internal Combustion Present.

That nice home charger in the garage will set you back another $700 or so. However, unlike the five-minute fill-up of your gas-powered ride, it will take you up to 3-4 hours to recharge that electric car. And the “range” of an electric car is a lot smaller than the range of miles you can get from a tank of gas. So, you’ll probably want to forget those long road-trips in your new electric car. And if you get caught in an unexpected traffic jam, that electric car’s range might just shrink. If you get caught with your battery down in the middle of a busy street or freeway, it might be pretty embarrassing to have AAA send a truck to hoist it up and carry it to the nearest charging station. And there’s no guarantee that there will even be a nearby charging station! They are still pretty few around the country today.

Also, what about that wildfire in your area, when the police or highway patrol comes to your house and tells you to evacuate? What? Your electric car is out of charge? It won’t get you very far when you need to evacuate? Too bad, it becomes a hunk of junk when the fire reaches your house, and you really can’t carry much on your back. Then, what about that power failure in the next thunderstorm? Your car needs a charge? Impossible with no power! That’s especially worrying when you are a rural resident, where you are already far from most services.

Now, I’ll bet that new electric car might not seem like such a good investment. And electric cars are so new, there’s really not much of a market for used ones. And big Li-ion batteries don’t last forever, and eventually need to be replaced, at a cost far above that of an internal-combustion engine. So your electric car might not be worth very much when its battery wears out, and you might be out one-third the price of the car for a new one. Oh, and batteries don’t perform very well in the cold, so if you live in a northern state like Minnesota, your car will need to be kept indoors so its battery doesn’t freeze or get drained by the cold weather. And beware of the company parking lot while you’re at work — your car might not run when you come out to go home at the end of the day.

My own viewpoint is that I will never, ever, buy or drive an electric car. I appreciate being able to get in my gas-powered car, and go wherever I want, whenever I want, with no “range anxiety.” I like long car trips, without the worry of how long I have left before my car dies. Gas stations are everywhere, and if you keep a full or close to full tank, you can even drive around during a power outage. And when you are forced to evacuate, you can fill up the trunk with your goods and just drive away. I’m betting that most Americans aren’t clamoring for an electric car, and that GM’s future might not be so prosperous if it expects most Americans to want one.

An electric car will not be in my future.

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  1. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Franco (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I despise electric cars. I pray then whole experiment with them fails. It is plot to make cars cost more, just like light bulbs, and all of our appliances.

    Bryan, this is not a sane position.
    People here are really triggered by the enviro-sanctimony surrounding electric cars. I also find it off-putting. But objectively it’s better technology across-the-board. That’s outside of environmental concerns. Ultimately it will be somewhat better but that is not even relevant to my position.

    I’m really surprised at the ignorance displayed by so many comments here.
    I drive a 2001 Chevy Suburban mostly and couldn’t care less how much I ‘pollute’. But EV’s are the future regardless of government meddling and absurd environmental fearmongering. It’s not government regulations or incentives that are driving this change-over, it’s mostly the vision and amazing genius of Elon Musk and Tesla, who managed to revolutionize the entire industry with better technology based on a superior system. Once the battery capacity provided enough range, and enough infrastructure was added, other car companies had to jump-in or be left behind. It’s as stark a contrast as horse-drawn carriages and model T’s, and the debate is parallel. All the drawbacks are easily surmounted and are being eliminated before our eyes, and the ICE system will be left in the dust in as little as one decade, because the system is superior. That is, cheaper, faster, more powerful, more comfortable and less problematic.

    Do some research. It’s easily found. I’ll even send you links if you agree to look at them.

    Bull.

    Gas is the best store of energy we have. That is fact. 

    If electric cars are more expensive,  have less range, take longer to refuel, do worse in cold, and have no resale value. They are inferior in every way to real cars other than acceleration,  which I don’t need more of.

    Prove to me your new thing is better. Onus is on you, not me. 

    • #61
  2. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I despise electric cars. I pray then whole experiment with them fails. It is plot to make cars cost more, just like light bulbs, and all of our appliances.

    Bryan, this is not a sane position.
    People here are really triggered by the enviro-sanctimony surrounding electric cars. I also find it off-putting. But objectively it’s better technology across-the-board. That’s outside of environmental concerns. Ultimately it will be somewhat better but that is not even relevant to my position.

    I’m really surprised at the ignorance displayed by so many comments here.
    I drive a 2001 Chevy Suburban mostly and couldn’t care less how much I ‘pollute’. But EV’s are the future regardless of government meddling and absurd environmental fearmongering. It’s not government regulations or incentives that are driving this change-over, it’s mostly the vision and amazing genius of Elon Musk and Tesla, who managed to revolutionize the entire industry with better technology based on a superior system. Once the battery capacity provided enough range, and enough infrastructure was added, other car companies had to jump-in or be left behind. It’s as stark a contrast as horse-drawn carriages and model T’s, and the debate is parallel. All the drawbacks are easily surmounted and are being eliminated before our eyes, and the ICE system will be left in the dust in as little as one decade, because the system is superior. That is, cheaper, faster, more powerful, more comfortable and less problematic.

    Do some research. It’s easily found. I’ll even send you links if you agree to look at them.

    Bull.

    Gas is the best store of energy we have. That is fact.

    If electric cars are more expensive, have less range, take longer to refuel, do worse in cold, and have no resale value. They are inferior in every way to real cars other than acceleration, which I don’t need more of.

    Prove to me your new thing is better. Onus is on you, not me.

    We…could let the market decide. 

    • #62
  3. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Matt Bartle (View Comment):

    I’m still wondering what happened to fuel cell cars. That was the Next Big Thing once upon a a time.

    And flywheels.

    • #63
  4. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    And the grid cannot support all electric in 15 years. Fact. Answer me that problem future man. CA is shutting its power off at times and has rolling brown outside now. They are not adding power. They won’t have it. We cannot support all these electric cars. We can’t. You have to answer that. 

    I’ll wait.

    • #64
  5. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    TBA (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I despise electric cars. I pray then whole experiment with them fails. It is plot to make cars cost more, just like light bulbs, and all of our appliances.

    Bryan, this is not a sane position.
    People here are really triggered by the enviro-sanctimony surrounding electric cars. I also find it off-putting. But objectively it’s better technology across-the-board. That’s outside of environmental concerns. Ultimately it will be somewhat better but that is not even relevant to my position.

    I’m really surprised at the ignorance displayed by so many comments here.
    I drive a 2001 Chevy Suburban mostly and couldn’t care less how much I ‘pollute’. But EV’s are the future regardless of government meddling and absurd environmental fearmongering. It’s not government regulations or incentives that are driving this change-over, it’s mostly the vision and amazing genius of Elon Musk and Tesla, who managed to revolutionize the entire industry with better technology based on a superior system. Once the battery capacity provided enough range, and enough infrastructure was added, other car companies had to jump-in or be left behind. It’s as stark a contrast as horse-drawn carriages and model T’s, and the debate is parallel. All the drawbacks are easily surmounted and are being eliminated before our eyes, and the ICE system will be left in the dust in as little as one decade, because the system is superior. That is, cheaper, faster, more powerful, more comfortable and less problematic.

    Do some research. It’s easily found. I’ll even send you links if you agree to look at them.

    Bull.

    Gas is the best store of energy we have. That is fact.

    If electric cars are more expensive, have less range, take longer to refuel, do worse in cold, and have no resale value. They are inferior in every way to real cars other than acceleration, which I don’t need more of.

    Prove to me your new thing is better. Onus is on you, not me.

    We…could let the market decide.

    I have been told I am fool for doubting.  Perfectly  reasonable to demand real proof, not Poe in the sky and insults for not believing .

    • #65
  6. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    David Foster (View Comment):

    Note that if all your electricity is generated from solar…and you charge your car at night…then the electricity you use to charge your car must be stored between the time it is generated and the time is is applied to the charging…which almost certainly means another battery or battery array.

    David, do you know any electric car owners who get their energy from solar, let alone all of it? I don’t. Do you know anyone who ever claimed to?

    BTW, Musk would be happy to sell you a house battery, a “powerwall”. 

    • #66
  7. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    Percival (View Comment):

    Matt Bartle (View Comment):

    I’m still wondering what happened to fuel cell cars. That was the Next Big Thing once upon a a time.

    Fuel cells degrade with use. I read once that 75,000 miles will cost you 10% efficiency. Plus you need hydrogen. It’s everywhere, but it has to be separated from whatever else it is combined with. That takes … wait for it … energy.

    Large volumes of hydrogen have other characteristics.

    TANSTAAFL.

    Sure, TANSTAAFL. How about a large volume of gasoline? Ever see James Cagney in the ending of “White Heat”? 

     

    • #67
  8. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    Matt Bartle (View Comment):

    I’m still wondering what happened to fuel cell cars. That was the Next Big Thing once upon a a time.

    Fuel cells degrade with use. I read once that 75,000 miles will cost you 10% efficiency. Plus you need hydrogen. It’s everywhere, but it has to be separated from whatever else it is combined with. That takes … wait for it … energy.

    Large volumes of hydrogen have other characteristics.

    TANSTAAFL.

    Sure, TANSTAAFL. How about a large volume of gasoline? Ever see James Cagney in the ending of “White Heat”?

     

    H2 is more explosive than gas.

    • #68
  9. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    And the grid cannot support all electric in 15 years. Fact. Answer me that problem future man. CA is shutting its power off at times and has rolling brown outside now. They are not adding power. They won’t have it. We cannot support all these electric cars. We can’t. You have to answer that.

    I’ll wait.

    No, I don’t have to answer a damn thing. I don’t want your lifestyle, and you don’t want mine. You know as little about California as I do about Georgia. Live your life the way you want, and if everyone doesn’t approve of it, or of mine, what do we care? Why should we? Since when do conservatives get conniptions because someone else has a differing opinion? 

    • #69
  10. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Bryan, technologies are superseded from time to time. Candles and oil lamps gave way to gaslight, which was replaced by incandescent light. The biggest problems come when the Government tries to force it. The only things they have competence in are defending the coasts and delivering the mail, and they are losing market share in the latter.

    • #70
  11. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Percival (View Comment):

    Matt Bartle (View Comment):

    I’m still wondering what happened to fuel cell cars. That was the Next Big Thing once upon a a time.

    Fuel cells degrade with use. I read once that 75,000 miles will cost you 10% efficiency. Plus you need hydrogen. It’s everywhere, but it has to be separated from whatever else it is combined with. That takes … wait for it … energy.

    Large volumes of hydrogen have other characteristics.

    TANSTAAFL.

    Sure, TANSTAAFL. How about a large volume of gasoline? Ever see James Cagney in the ending of “White Heat”?

     

    • #71
  12. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    And the grid cannot support all electric in 15 years. Fact. Answer me that problem future man. CA is shutting its power off at times and has rolling brown outside now. They are not adding power. They won’t have it. We cannot support all these electric cars. We can’t. You have to answer that.

    I’ll wait.

    No, I don’t have to answer a damn thing. I don’t want your lifestyle, and you don’t want mine. You know as little about California as I do about Georgia. Live your life the way you want, and if everyone doesn’t approve of it, or of mine, what do we care? Why should we? Since when do conservatives get conniptions because someone else has a differing opinion?

    If you are going to extol the future and how great it is, you have a responsibility to answer questions like I posed.

    Guess it is too damn hard.

    • #72
  13. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Percival (View Comment):

    Bryan, technologies are superseded from time to time. Candles and oil lamps gave way to gaslight, which was replaced by incandescent light. The biggest problems come when the Government tries to force it. The only things they have competence in are defending the coasts and delivering the mail, and they are losing market share in the latter.

    Prove to me electric cars are like the electric light.

    It is funny, I am asking to be sold, and what I get is called ignorant. 

    This is like people who demand I believe in UFOs

    • #73
  14. Concretevol Thatcher
    Concretevol
    @Concretevol

    Franco (View Comment):
    In 15 years there will be nothing but EV’s on the road

    Wanna bet?  Not a chance……  

    • #74
  15. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Concretevol (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):
    In 15 years there will be nothing but EV’s on the road

    Wanna bet? Not a chance……

    Well I guess you are with me heh

    • #75
  16. Concretevol Thatcher
    Concretevol
    @Concretevol

    No, not even the slightest desire for one let alone clamoring.  Most are more like appliances than cars in my opinion.  

    • #76
  17. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    This is like people who demand I believe in UFOs

    When you get the anal probe, you’ll believe. 👽

    • #77
  18. Concretevol Thatcher
    Concretevol
    @Concretevol

    KentForrester (View Comment):

    My Prius hybrid is 16 years old and my wife and I have driven it 206,000 miles, with virtually no problems. It’s still on its original brake linings and my tires go about 60,000 miles.

    It’s still on its original “big” battery. (I’ve had the normal batteries replaced.)

    I still get 45 miles per gallon.

    It’s the best car my wife and have ever owned. We’re going to drive it until it gives up the ghost.

    My 2012 F350 dually super duty diesel has 400,000 miles on it (390,000 to be exact).  Call me when you start driving that little thing.  

    Seriously though, that’s awesome you have a great car you are happy with, whatever it is.  

    • #78
  19. Jon1979 Inactive
    Jon1979
    @Jon1979

    David Foster (View Comment):

    If you have a pure-electric car and you need to charge it when not at home or at work…charging will probably take at least an hour or so, depending on the charger, the car, and your battery’s state of charge. So you’ll need to have something else to do during that time interval; very different from the present gas station gas-and-go model.

    In today’s immediate gratification society, when people get mad if their streaming music or video buffers because they’re not getting 20 Mbps download, that’s probably going to be the biggest negative toward full acceptance of EVs, if faster charging can’t be developed (and as I posted above, the government in Blue states’ answer to 20-30 minute recharges might be to put limits on the number of gas pumps, in order to create artificially long refueling lines in order to make gasing up as slow or slower than electric charging stations).

    • #79
  20. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Prove to me electric cars are like the electric light.

     

    They are both technologies. One is currently* dominant, one not. 

    It is funny, I am asking to be sold, and what I get is called ignorant. 

    Not by me.

    This is like people who demand I believe in UFOs

    With that kind of attitude, see if I ever offer you a ride in mine.


    *See what I did there? Currently. Electric light. Get it? Oh never mind.

     

    • #80
  21. GeezerBob Coolidge
    GeezerBob
    @GeezerBob

    In the peoples paradise of California, particularly those tied to PGE, that charging which must be done daily, pushes your consumption into a higher tier with really high KWH rates. Think $0.35/KWHr and rising. No bargain here…

    • #81
  22. Concretevol Thatcher
    Concretevol
    @Concretevol

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Concretevol (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):
    In 15 years there will be nothing but EV’s on the road

    Wanna bet? Not a chance……

    Well I guess you are with me heh

    Not that impressed with Elon Musk, his Apple wannabe press conferences introducing “trucks” that look like they were drawn on a 1st grader’s notebook, his failure to be profitable , his cars poor quality…..

    Ok, it’s personal taste.  I don’t like the cars (other than the door handles, those are slick)  I’m not into the futuristic interior with no gauges and a 32″ tv in the center of the dash.  However, more power to him and people who do like them.  I still think they are cars designed by appliance engineers but hell I like a 1968 Lincoln not a driving I Pad.  

    It’s not practical or in my opinion possible that EV’s will be all that’s on the road in 15 yrs or possibly ever.  That said, their use will increase at least due to busy body governments mandating it.  They are also getting better and better with some really excellent hybrids that seem to be the best of both worlds in many cases. 

    • #82
  23. I Walton Member
    I Walton
    @IWalton

     I remember as a relatively junior officer in the mid 70s, visiting the office of a US oil company in Bogota.  Their oil price projections  over the subsequent few years was  $70.  I asked if his company actually believed that?  He said yes.  I said, I didn’t know much about energy, but I’d guess that rather than continuing to climb, oil prices would probably fall below $30.  I didn’t know how much or when but the direction was a certainty.  I’d say the same about the demand for electric cars.  They’re expensive and their fuel costs more than gasoline and gas.  If we go to such a top down economy that we allow politicians to dictate electric car outcomes, we can’t know what other nonsense might happen but other than widespread  political  stupidity I’d not invest a cent in electric car, and certainly not buy one.

    • #83
  24. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    GeezerBob (View Comment):

    In the peoples paradise of California, particularly those tied to PGE, that charging which must be done daily, pushes your consumption into a higher tier with really high KWH rates. Think $0.35/KWHr and rising. No bargain here…

    In April I was still paying $140 a month for gas. Since then I’ve paid about $20 extra per month for electricity. That’s an annual saving of $1,440. Like they say, your mileage may differ. 

    • #84
  25. RushBabe49 Thatcher
    RushBabe49
    @RushBabe49

    Gary, is all your electricity use billed  the same?  When you got that charging station in the garage, did the electric utility install it?  If not, who did?  Does the electric utility know you have an electric car?  Do you have to tell them when you buy one?

    • #85
  26. Concretevol Thatcher
    Concretevol
    @Concretevol

    It ain’t all about fuel mileage…….

    • #86
  27. David Foster Member
    David Foster
    @DavidFoster

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    David, do you know any electric car owners who get their energy from solar, let alone all of it? I don’t. Do you know anyone who ever claimed to?

    BTW, Musk would be happy to sell you a house battery, a “powerwall”. 

    Part of the environmental sales pitch for electric cars is that over time the grid will evolve to all wind & solar.  This pitch rarely takes into account the costs of storing large amounts of electricity.

    Yes, I’m familiar with Musk’s Powerwall.  I believe the current price is $9000 for a 13.5 kWh battery.  13.5 kWh is not anywhere near enough to charge an electric car battery, so you’ll need 2-4 of the Powerwalls ir a larger system for another supplier.  And if there are a few days of overcast weather and you need to charge your car every day…not to mention other electrical needs in your home…you’re going to run out of electricity.

    • #87
  28. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):

    Gary, is all your electricity use billed the same? When you got that charging station in the garage, did the electric utility install it? If not, who did? Does the electric utility know you have an electric car? Do you have to tell them when you buy one?

    RB, it is. There are hours-of-the-day variations, so night use is cheaper, but not all that much cheaper. I had it installed privately by a licensed contractor. No, I don’t have to tell them.  SoCal Edison has power to spare, especially at night. True, only homeowners enjoy easy recharging at night, but most people in this area are homeowners. I know some EV owners who recharge at work only. Nobody ever said it was for everybody. Quite a number of apartment dwellers have no car at all, so it doesn’t affect them. 

    My three previous cars were a German built “Chrysler” Crossfire that was a re-skin of a Mercedes CLK, a Pontiac GTO from Australia with the Corvette LS engine, and a Jaguar with a big stonking V-8. I’m not exactly a greenie snowflake. 

    • #88
  29. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    David Foster (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    David, do you know any electric car owners who get their energy from solar, let alone all of it? I don’t. Do you know anyone who ever claimed to?

    BTW, Musk would be happy to sell you a house battery, a “powerwall”.

    Part of the environmental sales pitch for electric cars is that over time the grid will evolve to all wind & solar. This pitch rarely takes into account the costs of storing large amounts of electricity.

    Yes, I’m familiar with Musk’s Powerwall. I believe the current price is $9000 for a 13.5 kWh battery. 13.5 kWh is not anywhere near enough to charge an electric car battery, so you’ll need 2-4 of the Powerwalls ir a larger system for another supplier. And if there are a few days of overcast weather and you need to charge your car every day…not to mention other electrical needs in your home…you’re going to run out of electricity.

    Again, do you know of even one EV owner who says they charge off solar? That environmental sales pitch is one I haven’t ever heard, so I think you should ignore it. It’s easy to “nutpick” arguments with no real world relevance. 

    • #89
  30. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    RushBabe49: Are You Clamoring for an Electric Car?

    Hell no.  It’s idiotic.  A gallon of gasoline is cheaper than a gallon of water.  And it’s questionable whether the electric car is even more environmentally friendly.  Definitely not in my future either.

    • #90
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