401(k)s Not Working for People?

 

I work as a “retirement plan administrator” and am credentialed as an “expert” in the non-investment-side of 401(k)s and older-style pension plans. As such, my antennae always twitch any time I see a story regarding my industry. This story got me shaking my head at the framing of the issue.

I see companies’ payroll, deferral, and contribution figures every day, so I know that folks are not utilizing their 401(k) plans enough. Such a huge percentage of employees don’t defer anything, while others are deferring only, say, 2 percent; not even enough to earn all of their company’s matching contribution available to them.

Now, I am not credentialed as a financial planner, so I’m certainly not going to advise at what percentage or amount that you should invest; however, regarding the article: just because folks aren’t taking advantage of their 401(k) doesn’t mean that “their 401(k) isn’t working for them.” We live in a society that relies more and more on someone somewhere else taking care of us because we can’t be bothered to take care of ourselves; income / cost coverage in our golden years is chief among them.

I’m afraid to say that there’s going to be a huge problem in the coming years as the Boomers, the last ones with any meaningful pension incomes (and, even then, not as numerous or as generous as The Greatest and The Silent Generations had), pass the retirement torch to we Gen Xers. Our generation doesn’t have retirement savings, but we do have iPhone 11s, car payments, and trips to Disneyland / The Caribbean, on top of the student loans for the college degree we were told we needed (but didn’t / don’t). We’re living well now, instead of living ok now with the aim of living at least ok later.

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  1. DonG (skeptic) Coolidge
    DonG (skeptic)
    @DonG

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):
    The fundamental problem with 401ks/IRA/personal retirement saving as opposed to Traditional Pensions is that you don’t know how long you’re going to live, so have to worry about outliving your money.

    Annuities are a way to trade a fixed amount for a lifetime stream of money.  Conversely, you can sort of convert a lifetime stream of money into a fixed amount.

    • #31
  2. DonG (skeptic) Coolidge
    DonG (skeptic)
    @DonG

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):
    my 401(k) has over $300K today. I have other savings to support me when I retire, and no kids to leave it to

    I think Ricochet has a planned giving form on the bottom of the home page. 

    • #32
  3. DonG (skeptic) Coolidge
    DonG (skeptic)
    @DonG

    BigDumbJerk (View Comment):

    Seawriter (View Comment):

    I did put money in company-matching pre-tax savings programs, but since working as a contractor, I have not had the opportunity. Now I could put money into an IRA now, but I am reluctant to do that. The Democrats are talking about seizing individual IRAs to pay for government retirement programs. Instead, I invest the money I cold have put into an IRA through other instruments.

    I really don’t see that happening; there’d be a revolution.

    Also, as an independent company owner, you can open your own 401(k), which would increase your allowable deferral limit each year & you’d be able to make company-paid contributions (match, profit-sharing), which would lower your taxable income.

     

    401k is for big corporations.  Small business owners want to use a SEP.

    https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/retirement-plans-faqs-regarding-seps

    • #33
  4. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):
    The fundamental problem with 401ks/IRA/personal retirement saving as opposed to Traditional Pensions is that you don’t know how long you’re going to live, so have to worry about outliving your money.

    Annuities are a way to trade a fixed amount for a lifetime stream of money. Conversely, you can sort of convert a lifetime stream of money into a fixed amount.

    That’s what we did with the CREF portion of my TIAA-CREF plan. In fact, that was almost the only reasonable thing to do with it, other than taking it as a lump sum, which would have had undesirable tax consequences.  While working I had some control over how much went into each, and I could transfer funds from TIAA to CREF.  After the 2008 crash I didn’t do any more transfers, as the TIAA portion went into a decline and took a while to recover.  At about age 67 or so we annuitized the CREF portion.  The Fed tries to steal 2 percent a year, but if that’s the worst they do I guess we’ll manage.  

     

    • #34
  5. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    RushBabe49 (View Comment):

    I wanted to contribute to my company’s 401(k) from Day One, but I had to wait for three months. The reason is that my company’s 401(k) provider is Vanguard, where it just so happens that I already have the majority of my investments. I was 58 when I started, and I knew I didn’t have much time to build my account, so I started out at 18%, and have increased since then. In 2014 we were given the Roth alternative, so I split up my percentage and contribute both pre- and post-tax. We have a household income now that is too high for me to add to my existing Roth IRA, but that limit does not apply to my 401(k), which is a real benefit. And it’s very cool to be able to see everything in one place, and I can keep track easily. And we are lucky in the choice of funds offered, which when I started included a couple of funds that were closed to new investors at the time, but available in our plan. I was thrilled to be able to invest in funds that were so successful that they were closed to new retail investors, but not to us. Our new corporate parent agreed to keep our account at Vanguard through 2020, and we are lobbying really hard for them to move all their accounts there in a year. And they might just do it. If they do, I won’t retire unless I have to.

    I have a rollover 401k at vanguard with the proceeds from 401ks at previous employers, my 401k at current employer, my wife’s 401k from her employer (a large insurance company) plus a few scattered IRAs and a small SEP form when I was self-employed.  

    I balance across the entire portfolio instead of within each one, which gives the advisor that comes in for our company 401k conniptions because he starts a meeting with me by only seeing my company 401k in isolation, and I have it 100% invested in a single fund.  Fortunately, 9 years ago when I started there I managed picked the one fund  that as of today  has the best 10-year cumulative return (15-plus%) out of all funds offered in the plan.  So that worked out well.

    I love my wife’s 401k as well – the insurance company she works for offers a “guaranteed” fund which pays their dividend rate.  I treat it as a bond fund and put her entire account into that.   It currently pays about 5%, and the best part is the balance *never* goes down, although the rate fluctuates slightly year-to-year.  I don’t worry about what happens if the company goes under – if things get bad enough that that happens, retirement savings will be the least of our problems.

     

    • #35
  6. Merrijane Inactive
    Merrijane
    @Merrijane

    BigDumbJerk (View Comment):
    . I might open up a separate thread on here to ask others’ opinion as to their thoughts on this sort of paternalism vs individual choices.

    I’m of two minds about it—not sure how I feel. We are a church-owned company that provides benefits for other church-owned companies. Churches are an odd mix of paternalistic and personal responsibility promoting. I think the mindset is something like, if we make sure employees save for retirement, they will be less likely to need church or government help when they retire. And they will be more likely to have the means to serve in the church or community should they so choose. It has increased savings levels by quite a bit.

    • #36
  7. Django Member
    Django
    @Django

    It was over thirty years ago, but I still remember the conversation with a GenX type who asked how I had saved money. I told him, “It’s pretty simple. I have two accounts and I’ve signed up for electronic paycheck deposit at both. Some money goes in account 1 and doesn’t come out, while the rest goes in account 2. It’s not a lot going to 1 because I need enough in account 2 to pay bills and such.” In addition, I contributed to the 401K.

    He then asked, “What if you want something and don’t have enough in account 2 to pay for it?” My answer was, “I wait until I have enough.” “But you have money in 1”, he said. I referred him to rule 1: Money doesn’t come out of account 1. He persisted, “But that means you’re denying yourself something you want, and I won’t live that way.”

    What was there to say except, “It’s your life.” He filed for bankruptcy at least one time over the next 20 years.

    • #37
  8. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Seawriter (View Comment):
    The Democrats are talking about seizing individual IRAs to pay for government retirement programs. Instead, I invest the money I cold have put into an IRA through other instruments.

    Never going to happen. Violates the Constitution. Plus the single thing that would actually cause a rebellion.

    • #38
  9. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Ralphie (View Comment):
    In the old days, I believe your children were your retirement plan. That may happen again. Who know what the future will bring.

    Still is, in Asia – even in places of prosperity, like Singapore.

    • #39
  10. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Seawriter (View Comment):
    The Democrats are talking about seizing individual IRAs to pay for government retirement programs. Instead, I invest the money I cold have put into an IRA through other instruments.

    Never going to happen. Violates the Constitution. Plus the single thing that would actually cause a rebellion.

    You are an optimist.

    • #40
  11. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    JimGoneWild (View Comment):
    The Federal government needs to update all IRA’s to have the same limits as a 401K. And they need to double or triple all the allowable limits to 401K’s too. Provide some incentive to save more like converting regular 401K’s to Roth 401K’s with no penalties or taxes, in exchange for people not accepting Social Security.

    Never going to happen, they need the tax revenue too much.

    • #41
  12. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Seawriter (View Comment):
    The Democrats are talking about seizing individual IRAs to pay for government retirement programs. Instead, I invest the money I cold have put into an IRA through other instruments.

    Never going to happen. Violates the Constitution. Plus the single thing that would actually cause a rebellion.

    You are an optimist.

    No, I just believe that Demoncrats have a healthy respect for pitchforks.

    They also set new rules recently where people with wrongthink can be hounded out of public spaces. 

    Seriously, do we really think that they could pass such a bill and get it through all the wickets and make it law? Doubtful.

    • #42
  13. Michael Minnott Member
    Michael Minnott
    @MichaelMinnott

    I am currently 49.  In the next 10 years my wife and I would like to have our home paid off, plus have at least ~$500K in post-tax savings stashed away.  I think we should be alright with that.

     

    • #43
  14. Vectorman Inactive
    Vectorman
    @Vectorman

    Michael Minnott (View Comment):

    I am currently 49. In the next 10 years my wife and I would like to have our home paid off, plus have at least ~$500K in post-tax savings stashed away. I think we should be alright with that.

    Not a bad start, especially if the post-tax savings is in a Roth. Past performance does not guarantee future results, but a 60% Stock / 40% Bond fund should be good for at least 6% tax-free yield until then. Now that both of us are retired, we are shifting to a 50/50 allocation. Dollar Cost Averaging is your friend – it worked well for us.

    • #44
  15. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    Instugator (View Comment):

    JimGoneWild (View Comment):
    The Federal government needs to update all IRA’s to have the same limits as a 401K. And they need to double or triple all the allowable limits to 401K’s too. Provide some incentive to save more like converting regular 401K’s to Roth 401K’s with no penalties or taxes, in exchange for people not accepting Social Security.

    Never going to happen, they need the tax revenue too much.

    Really, they should make contributions unlimited and no penalty on withdrawal at any time. Then apply the tax system to whatever people take out every year. This has the result of taxing actual consumption instead of income. You are then taxed on your quality of life rather than how much you happen to make in a particular calendar year.

    • #45
  16. Vectorman Inactive
    Vectorman
    @Vectorman

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Seawriter (View Comment):
    The Democrats are talking about seizing individual IRAs to pay for government retirement programs. Instead, I invest the money I cold have put into an IRA through other instruments.

    Never going to happen. Violates the Constitution. Plus the single thing that would actually cause a rebellion.

    Even if they controlled all 4 Branches of the Fed (House, Senate, President, Judicial), how would it be implemented without passing a law? It would take months to go into effect. If the 1930’s Bank Runs were bad, imagine the results of this action.

    • #46
  17. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

     

    Vectorman (View Comment):
    how would it be implemented without passing a law?

    The same way they implement a whole lot of things without passing a law.  For example, they decide they want the power to regulate e-cigarettes, and presto, they regulate e-cigarettes. 

    • #47
  18. cirby Inactive
    cirby
    @cirby

    I’m 60.

    I’m planning on retiring at 70.

    But, barring some bit advances in life extension, I’m not planning on much beyond that – I have no family, and nobody who would really care if I lived much beyond “retirement” age.

     

    • #48
  19. MACHO GRANDE' (aka - Chris Cam… Coolidge
    MACHO GRANDE' (aka - Chris Cam…
    @ChrisCampion

    I still have trouble understanding why people don’t max their contributions, at least to the level where their employer matches it.  It’s free money.  Odds are really good that you won’t miss that income in the short run and you absolutely will need it later.

    I’m so upside down on savings and investments (52 now, just bought my first real house 2.5 years ago), that I expect to be working well into my 70’s.  Not a problem, I get a lot out of working, the hard part will be staying current with tech, etc.  Funny thing is, the more senior you get, the less hands-on you are at work, so you can get rusty with stuff.

    Organizational changes, mergers, layoffs, etc, are the inevitable outcome at some point in everyone’s career.  Multiple ones.  We’re in one right now, at my gig, an internal “re-org”, which is really an acquisition of our business unit by another.  It’s a freakshow of demotions and internal placements, doled out piecemeal across about 1,000 employees, over the past several months, and it’s still not done.  And I don’t know where I’m going in the new organization (or merged organization), or if I have a gig.

    In other words, resume’ has been updated, already have an application in at another company, etc.  I’m not worried about finding a job, I’m worried about transitions and impacts to my family.

    • #49
  20. BigDumbJerk Member
    BigDumbJerk
    @BigDumbJerk

    DonG (skeptic) (View Comment):

    BigDumbJerk (View Comment):

    Seawriter (View Comment):

    I did put money in company-matching pre-tax savings programs, but since working as a contractor, I have not had the opportunity. Now I could put money into an IRA now, but I am reluctant to do that. The Democrats are talking about seizing individual IRAs to pay for government retirement programs. Instead, I invest the money I cold have put into an IRA through other instruments.

    I really don’t see that happening; there’d be a revolution.

    Also, as an independent company owner, you can open your own 401(k), which would increase your allowable deferral limit each year & you’d be able to make company-paid contributions (match, profit-sharing), which would lower your taxable income.

     

    401k is for big corporations. Small business owners want to use a SEP.

    https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/retirement-plans-faqs-regarding-seps

    Again, I disagree; my entire career has been concentrated on small, even micro-, companies’ 401(k) plans, with employees as many as 50-75, all the way down to a single owner and no one else.

    • #50
  21. Metalheaddoc Member
    Metalheaddoc
    @Metalheaddoc

    I am doing horribly. I started saving too late and I am not putting enough away. I am probably going to have to keep working until I croak. (I just turned 50, FYI)

    • #51
  22. RushBabe49 Thatcher
    RushBabe49
    @RushBabe49

    @cirby, beg to differ. You do have family, right here at Ricochet. We do care whether and how long you live after retirement. Maybe you could attend a meetup soon, and get to know your Ricochet family in person. 

    • #52
  23. Randy Weivoda Moderator
    Randy Weivoda
    @RandyWeivoda

    According to the linked article, there are disparities between different income groups!  So someone with a $200,000 annual income usually has more in retirement savings than someone who makes $25,000 a year?  Thank goodness we have crack researchers to ferret out such counter-intuitive data.

    • #53
  24. Django Member
    Django
    @Django

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    According to the linked article, there are disparities between different income groups! So someone with a $200,000 annual income usually has more in retirement savings than someone who makes $25,000 a year? Thank goodness we have crack researchers to ferret out such counter-intuitive data.

    Good Lord! Next they’ll tell us that if you make $200K instead of $25K, you can afford a nicer home and a newer car. 

    • #54
  25. Vectorman Inactive
    Vectorman
    @Vectorman

    Django (View Comment):

    Randy Weivoda (View Comment):

    According to the linked article, there are disparities between different income groups! So someone with a $200,000 annual income usually has more in retirement savings than someone who makes $25,000 a year? Thank goodness we have crack researchers to ferret out such counter-intuitive data.

    Good Lord! Next they’ll tell us that if you make $200K instead of $25K, you can afford a nicer home and a newer car.

    The old adage for college professors was “publish or perish.” The corollary for article writers is “publish anything, especially if it is woke.”

    • #55
  26. ToryWarWriter Coolidge
    ToryWarWriter
    @ToryWarWriter

    By 40 I have 115000 saved while usually taking a 5 percent match on RRSP.

    • #56
  27. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Metalheaddoc (View Comment):

    I am doing horribly. I started saving too late and I am not putting enough away. I am probably going to have to keep working until I croak. (I just turned 50, FYI)

    I’m older than you are. My only hope is to buy a winning lottery ticket. 😁

    • #57
  28. Django Member
    Django
    @Django

    I wonder how much one’s experiences as a child affect one’s saving habits. I was the product of a man’s second marriage, a man who was 19 when the “Great Depression” hit. His father, my paternal grandfather, was killed in what may or may not have been a hunting accident, and as the oldest son he was responsible for a large family. It marked him, and I got tired of hearing about it as a child, but in a way, it marked me. In my mid-50s, I took a financial test to determine how much I needed to save to live in the manner I wanted in retirement, a modest manner. I got a negative number. The plan had served me well, so I continued and retired at 64. I called in some favors and got a severance package just short of $100K. In material terms, I won the game. But, let me say that all it means is that I have one less issue to worry about. A major issue perhaps that I don’t worry about, but all other issues remain.

    • #58
  29. Mike H Inactive
    Mike H
    @MikeH

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Metalheaddoc (View Comment):

    I am doing horribly. I started saving too late and I am not putting enough away. I am probably going to have to keep working until I croak. (I just turned 50, FYI)

    I’m older than you are. My only hope is to buy a winning lottery ticket. 😁

    You’re over 50?! I always thought you were closer to me in age (37).

    • #59
  30. Randy Weivoda Moderator
    Randy Weivoda
    @RandyWeivoda

    Mike H (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Metalheaddoc (View Comment):

    I am doing horribly. I started saving too late and I am not putting enough away. I am probably going to have to keep working until I croak. (I just turned 50, FYI)

    I’m older than you are. My only hope is to buy a winning lottery ticket. 😁

    You’re over 50?! I always thought you were closer to me in age (37).

    That avatar photo was taken years ago, Mike.

    • #60
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