Spiritual But Not Religious

 

I’m tired of people describing their spiritual lives as “spiritual but not religious.” I have little respect for people who wear the spiritual label to show how enlightened they are, and how they have freed themselves from the archaic practices of religion.

I know there are many people who have had painful experiences with religion and thus have chosen this narrow journey of spirituality. Many people have had difficult, emotionally wounding experiences with organized religion. They have been betrayed by a spiritual leader or were taught as a child a fearful or hateful version of religions. They were expected to follow rituals they didn’t understand or resented. All in all, early experiences left them empty, without filling their hearts and souls. Even my own mother felt rejected; she had wanted to join a synagogue, but we had limited funds. She left hurt and embarrassed after visiting the synagogue, when they told her they couldn’t adjust the fees for her poor financial situation.

There are also many people who, for one reason or another, never felt connected to their religion. A plethora of people and entities could be blamed for this lack of fulfillment. In many cases, parents didn’t know how to communicate the depth and meaning of the religion; often they themselves had been poorly educated, so that the religious observation was a perplexing combination of ritual, holy days, and practices to which they couldn’t relate. The mix of observances just seemed to interfere with everyday life and didn’t seem to provide a meaningful purpose.

And yet there are many people who have felt that “something was missing” in their lives; it didn’t occur to them that their earlier experiences had to do not just with particular churches or synagogues, or with certain religious leaders, or even with their families, and that their generalizations about religion might be incomplete. Instead, they may have asked themselves why they should go back to something that had already failed them. And there are others who feel moved to “try something” outside of religion. I describe those efforts as “dabbling,” “trial efforts,” or “just spiritual,” or a mixture of all three.

“Dabbling” describes” trying out different practices they’ve heard of or read about. These efforts are often superficial, like trying on a new dress to see how it fits. When a woman dabbles in clothing styles, she often puts a value on whether the color suits her, whether the outfit complements her body type, or whether it’s a practical addition to her wardrobe. If she doesn’t like it, she can always return it. Unfortunately, that’s how some people explore religion: what looks good, which things “feel” right, which make the fewest demands. They move in and out of belief systems as if they are changing outfits. They may assume that they may find something that suits them, but underneath, they are too reticent, too wounded, or too disillusioned to take a risk to make a serious religious commitment. So they spend a lifetime dabbling and call it spiritual.

Trial efforts are made by people who aren’t quite satisfied with their lives but feel they are willing to try something else; this description described me at one time, although at the time, I didn’t see it as a trial effort. I had never deeply connected to Judaism and I liked Zen Buddhism, liked many of the teachings, appreciated meditation and even enjoyed most of the rituals. I felt that it deepened my spiritual life, especially since I felt it brought me closer to G-d. I didn’t go into Zen with that intention, since Zen is not a theistic practice, but it doesn’t forbid believing in G-d; ironically I felt G-d’s presence more deeply when I practiced Zen, and I know that meditation contributed to my experience.

But life was determined to move me away from Zen and in some ways, I sabotaged my own practice. Left bereft with no religious framework and no community, I questioned where to go next. Eventually, as many of you know, I returned to and embraced my original faith of Judaism.

Others who engage in “trial efforts” often try more than one faith. This decision is deeper than dabbling, but it often is fairly limited in the way it works upon the soul of an individual. That result could be due to the ambivalence of the practitioner, or due to a mismatch with a religion, or due to the person expecting the perfect practice and finding problems with it over time. When disillusionment sets in, a person can muddle along indefinitely, or move on to a new religion.

Finally, there are those who want to be “just spiritual.” They’ve had little exposure to formal religion, and what they’ve learned has been critical of religion. They’ve been told that people of faith just believe in a “big man in the sky,” and they perceive religion as primitive and restrictive.

People who want to be just spiritual often don’t even dabble They experience spirituality through a beautiful landscape, brilliant sunset or some other part of nature. They see no need for ritual, for a framework of values and beliefs to build on. They want to be free to be spiritual when the moment moves them.

* * * * *

It’s occurred to me that one of the greatest barriers to others embracing a religion is that it is often filled with paradoxes. How do those of us who are religious explain that the deepest experiences can come from the limits we set in our lives? How do we describe the freedom and satisfaction that comes from following a belief system that seems to restrict us and is even difficult? How do we show people that we grow through spiritual questioning and examination? How do we demonstrate that believing in and opening ourselves up to a divine being can be some of the most intimate and rewarding times of our lives?

* * * * *

The spiritual choices that people reject or embrace not only affect themselves, but affect their families, their communities, even this country. Unless they transcend their self-centered views, they will have restricted their own lives and their ability to influence this country in a wholesome, positive way. Everyone loses.

* * * * *

To understand these factors is more than an intellectual exercise; these are not ideas you can read about in a book to determine that they are true. Study is invaluable, but study without experience will rarely fulfill one’s spiritual hopes. But if one studies religion, asks oneself the toughest questions and requests divine guidance, practices with devotion, and an open heart, all things are possible.

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  1. E. Kent Golding Moderator
    E. Kent Golding
    @EKentGolding

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):
    Yes, yoga comes out of the Hindu tradition

    From a Dane teaching calisthenics at a YMCA in India.

    Taught by “Yogi” bear at Jellystone Park.

    • #31
  2. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Jim McConnell (View Comment):

    @susanquinn, although you are Jewish and I’m an evangelical Christian, I think we would both agree with the seventeenth century Catholic theologian Blaise Pascal:

    “What else does this craving, and this helplessness, proclaim but that there was once in man a true happiness, of which all that now remains is the empty print and trace? This he tries in vain to fill with everything around him, seeking in things that are not there the help he cannot find in those that are, though none can help, since this infinite abyss can be filled only with an infinite and immutable object; in other words by God himself.”

    My homeboy Augustine got there first.

    Well, he wasn’t first either. Just a bit before Pascal. 

    • #32
  3. Metalheaddoc Member
    Metalheaddoc
    @Metalheaddoc

    I usually interpret “spiritual but not religious” to mean they worship their own ego as their higher power. They are smugly certain that they are such good people that they can vainly worship themselves. They have their own moral code which is convenient in case they want to get an abortion or have an affair or something like that and still feel fantastic about themselves. 

    • #33
  4. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    If someone claimed to be religious but not spiritual, I’d stick around and ask him to say more instead of edging toward the door.   

    • #34
  5. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    If someone claimed to be religious but not spiritual, I’d stick around and ask him to say more instead of edging toward the door.

    I’d be curious, too, @thereticulator. I think people experience “spirituality” itself in different ways, so it might be a fascinating discussion. There are  people who take a rational approach to religion and spirituality doesn’t factor in. I’ve heard Dennis Prager say something similar.

    • #35
  6. Lilly Blanch Coolidge
    Lilly Blanch
    @LillyB

    Susan Quinn:

    The spiritual choices that people reject or embrace not only affect themselves, but affect their families, their communities, even this country. Unless they transcend their self-centered views, they will have restricted their own lives and their ability to influence this country in a wholesome, positive way. Everyone loses.

    I think this is such an important point. It seems to me that my parents and my in-laws, who are all a bit older than baby-boomer except for my mother-in-law who was born in 1947, all shed religion from their lives in adulthood. They all had religious upbringings, but did not see it as important when they were married and raising families. This probably reflects the fact that both couples married outside their own faith traditions, but it also seems to reflect a larger trend. I felt the lack of religion and religious knowledge in my life, and I am trying to give my own children a better foundation. My husband and I were both ultimately raised as Episcopalians, although he went to church less often than my family’s Christmas and Easter attendance. 

    It seems to me that it was easy for a generation raised in a predominantly Judeo-Christian culture to abandon it for themselves, assuming it would remain intact. I must add that my parents have been excellent role models as hard-working, upstanding citizens who have always cared for each other and their families. My husbands parents are also good people, and they may have good reasons for distancing themselves from religious traditions that served them poorly.

    • #36
  7. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Not liking Religion goes back to Roman times. 😁

    • #37
  8. E. Kent Golding Moderator
    E. Kent Golding
    @EKentGolding

    My parents thought it was very  important that I was Christian,  but not important that I actually attend church and be active in my faith.   Eventually I went very binary  ( Christian or Not,  Religious or Not ).    I concluded God was both real and interested in both individual humans ( although I still have no idea why ) and human societies.   I try to live  in a way that reflects that, although I am kind of crummy at that.

    • #38
  9. Bob W Member
    Bob W
    @WBob

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    If someone claimed to be religious but not spiritual, I’d stick around and ask him to say more instead of edging toward the door.

    Religious but not spiritual… I’ve seen “Spiritual but not religious” as an option to check for yourself on dating websites, and I remember wondering why “religious but not spiritual” wasn’t an option as well. 

    • #39
  10. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    KentForrester (View Comment):

    Susan, I always read and appreciate your “meditations” concerning religion and the spiritual life.

    But I never find myself among the kinds of religious experiences (or lack thereof) that you describe. (Susan, you’re a bit harsh sometimes on my “type.”)

    At the risk of redundancy (I’ve touched on these matters before), my parents were secular-minded, and so am I. Thus, I didn’t really have anything to rebel against.

    I have absolutely no need to believe in anything beyond this material world. And death, I believe, will end all. And that doesn’t bother me a whit. It just seems like the way of the world.

    I‘ve experienced great sadness a couple of times, but those experiences have never moved me toward religious belief.

    I‘ve had a satisfying and happy life with my wife of 56 years. I don’t need anything more.

    I think I’m an empiricist or agnostic who tends toward atheism.

    Your Ricochet friend, Kent

    I concur with Kent – and object to Susan’s characterization of my lack of belief as “self-centered” and detrimental to my family, community and country.  I find those characterizations to apply more often to religious belief than to lack thereof.

    • #40
  11. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    I Shot The Serif (View Comment):

    What about the “It’s not a religion, it’s a relationship” people? They make it sound like you can’t have both.

    Back in my online theological debate days, it seemed like a lot of Christians saw ‘religion’ as a bad word. They saw it as what the prophets preached against–rituals with nothing behind them. I think that’s unfortunate.

    @ishottheserif, maybe it’s because of our, ahem, age difference, but all of this is new to me. What does “It’s not a religion, it’s a relationship” mean? Relationship with whom? And Christians seeing religion as a bad word? Maybe they just didn’t want to be “judged” by people who actually believed in religion–or those who didn’t. Weird. Let’s see if anyone else wants to weigh in on experiences like yours.

    I think even deeply religious people  – even people of conventional religious belief (e.g. evangelicals) – can often recognize that when you introduce a human institution to the situation you introduce the possibility (even likelihood) of corruption – humans being the flawed creatures we are.  That’s sort of what the reformation was all about, wasn’t it?  Rejecting the flaws of a very worldly and materialistic Catholic church in favor of a more individual relationship with the Christian god.

    • #41
  12. E. Kent Golding Moderator
    E. Kent Golding
    @EKentGolding

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    KentForrester (View Comment):

    Susan, I always read and appreciate your “meditations” concerning religion and the spiritual life.

    But I never find myself among the kinds of religious experiences (or lack thereof) that you describe. (Susan, you’re a bit harsh sometimes on my “type.”)

    At the risk of redundancy (I’ve touched on these matters before), my parents were secular-minded, and so am I. Thus, I didn’t really have anything to rebel against.

    I have absolutely no need to believe in anything beyond this material world. And death, I believe, will end all. And that doesn’t bother me a whit. It just seems like the way of the world.

    I‘ve experienced great sadness a couple of times, but those experiences have never moved me toward religious belief.

    I‘ve had a satisfying and happy life with my wife of 56 years. I don’t need anything more.

    I think I’m an empiricist or agnostic who tends toward atheism.

    Your Ricochet friend, Kent

    I concur with Kent – and object to Susan’s characterization of my lack of belief as “self-centered” and detrimental to my family, community and country. I find those characterizations to apply more often to religious belief than to lack thereof.

    Cato, both you and Kent are good citizens.    Every  person has to decide what they believe to be true.   True is True.   I believe Christ is Truth;  you do not.  One of us is wrong, but both of us are being faithful to our best judgement.  

    • #42
  13. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    I grew up in a secular family where God was not discussed very much, we didn’t pray very much, but we did have Easter egg hunts and exchanged gifts on Christmas.

    The family across the street was a tight knit Mormon family and I was good friends with the oldest son in that family.  But the father of the Mormon family didn’t seem to like me too much, maybe because I wasn’t Mormon and maybe because I wasn’t religious at all.

    While growing up I always felt like there was something wrong with not being religious.  You know, sort of like when you show up to class when you are in 6th grade and you didn’t do the homework while all of the other classmates did.

    Whenever the topic of religion came up, I was afraid of standing out like a sore thumb.  I had never read the Bible.  I didn’t really know all of what Christianity was about.  I knew that Jews were a bit different from the Christians.  But I didn’t even know that Mormons were the red-haired step child of Christianity.  I was clueless.  But I was curious.

    So, whenever someone would invite me to go to church with them, I would go.  But it never resonated with me.  The politics did resonate.  I like Jerry Falwell’s political views.  I was for Reagan and so was he.  I was for aid to the Nicaraguan Contras fighting Bernie Sanders’ Sandinistas and so was Jerry Falwell.  William F. Buckley Jr. was a Catholic.

    Maybe there’s something to this Christianity thing?

    But I also knew that Milton Friedman was agnostic.  And later, in the early 1990s I attended a Republican fundraiser where the guest speaker was David Horowitz, a Jewish man who had communist parents and who was a communist himself for much of his life until he converted to conservatism.

    I’ve attended lots of different churches over my 50 plus year lifetime.  But I can never stick with church going.  I get too bored with it or I find the Leftist politics to irritating (Jesus would have helped rather than deported illegal immigrants?  Really?  Jesus wouldn’t resist communism, an ideology which helps the poor?  Really?) or I find the actual religious beliefs unbelievable.

    But in theory, God would do anything.  So, maybe he came to earth as Jimi Hendrix or Eric Clapton.

    They say to avoid getting into needless arguments you should never discuss religion or politics.  But what else is worth talking about?  Sports, I suppose.  I try to convince two of my co-workers who are New England Patriots fans that neither Bill Belichick nor Tom Brady is God.

    • #43
  14. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Cato Rand (View Comment):
    I concur with Kent – and object to Susan’s characterization of my lack of belief as “self-centered” and detrimental to my family, community and country. I find those characterizations to apply more often to religious belief than to lack thereof.

    I was speaking of people who consider themselves to be spiritual, @catorand. I thought you were an atheist.

    • #44
  15. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    I grew up in a secular family where God was not discussed very much, we didn’t pray very much, but we did have Easter egg hunts and exchanged gifts on Christmas.

    The family across the street was a tight knit Mormon family and I was good friends with the oldest son in that family. But the father of the Mormon family didn’t seem to like me too much, maybe because I wasn’t Mormon and maybe because I wasn’t religious at all.

    While growing up I always felt like there was something wrong with not being religious. You know, sort of like when you show up to class when you are in 6th grade and you didn’t do the homework while all of the other classmates did.

    Whenever the topic of religion came up, I was afraid of standing out like a sore thumb. I had never read the Bible. I didn’t really know all of what Christianity was about. I knew that Jews were a bit different from the Christians. But I didn’t even know that Mormons were the red-haired step child of Christianity. I was clueless. But I was curious.

    So, whenever someone would invite me to go to church with them, I would go. But it never resonated with me. The politics did resonate. I like Jerry Falwell’s political views. I was for Reagan and so was he. I was for aid to the Nicaraguan Contras fighting Bernie Sanders’ Sandinistas and so was Jerry Falwell. William F. Buckley Jr. was a Catholic.

    Maybe there’s something to this Christianity thing?

    But I also knew that Milton Friedman was agnostic. And later, in the early 1990s I attended a Republican fundraiser where the guest speaker was David Horowitz, a Jewish man who had communist parents and who was a communist himself for much of his life until he converted to conservatism.

    I’ve attended lots of different churches over my 50 plus year lifetime. But I can never stick with church going. I get too bored with it or I find the Leftist politics to irritating (Jesus would have helped rather than deported illegal immigrants? Really? Jesus wouldn’t resist communism, an ideology which helps the poor? Really?) or I find the actual religious beliefs unbelievable.

    But in theory, God would do anything. So, maybe he came to earth as Jimi Hendrix or Eric Clapton.

    They say to avoid getting into needless arguments you should never discuss religion or politics. But what else is worth talking about? Sports, I suppose. I try to convince two of my co-workers who are New England Patriots fans that neither Bill Belichick nor Tom Brady is God.

    So where do you find yourself? Atheist? Agnostic? Technically, @heavywater, this post is not about you unless you are a person who claims to be spiritual without religion.

    • #45
  16. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    @catorand and perhaps to @heavywater, too. If you guys read my comments on @iwe‘s recent post on religion, you would have seen my comments about atheists. (I believe you both might be atheists.) I was condescending, because I had encountered atheists who were condescending to people of religion. I have the impression, correct me if I’m wrong, that you both don’t connect with religion or spirituality, but have no problem with people who take that path. I bring this up because as I said in an earlier comment, I don’t care what people believe, but rather how they act, especially in relationship to others. So if I insulted either of you on this post or elsewhere, I apologize. My purpose in this post was directed to people who call themselves spiritual and not religious.

    • #46
  17. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    @catorand and perhaps to @heavywater, too. If you guys read my comments on @iwe‘s recent post on religion, you would have seen my comments about atheists. (I believe you both might be atheists.) I was condescending, because I had encountered atheists who were condescending to people of religion. I have the impression, correct me if I’m wrong, that you both don’t connect with religion or spirituality, but have no problem with people who take that path. I bring this up because as I said in an earlier comment, I don’t care what people believe, but rather how they act, especially in relationship to others. So if I insulted either of you on this post or elsewhere, I apologize. My purpose in this post was directed to people who call themselves spiritual and not religious.

    I appreciate that you didn’t intend with this post to take a swing at anyone who is agnostic or atheist.  I don’t know if the “spiritual but not religious” label applies to me.

    I think focusing on, as you wrote, not what people believe but how they act, is a good way to interact with people.  It sounds a bit like Martin Luther King Jr.’s famous line of “judged not by the color of ones skin but by the content of ones character.”

    Of course, I can anticipate what one of my highly religious protestant Christian friends would say in response: “A person who refuses to acknowledge God is a person of low character.”  But of course my response to that would be I am in interested in what is true, even if the truth is less comforting and less familiar than the set of stories handed down by people from the distant past.

    I think it takes a person of high character to have to guts to question a set of beliefs that one was taught since childhood.

    Nothing gives me more confidence in humanity than listening to ex-Muslims on YouTube talk about what they were told by their parents and by the Muslim community and then talk about what caused them to doubt what they were told and to eventually risk losing their spouse, their children, their parents, their friends and their community because they could no longer believe that Jews and Christians and gays and lesbians are infidels.

    Regardless of whether one is religious or not, I think there is a lot of value in people taking the time to listen to people who sacrificed nearly everything by leaving the faith handed to them as a child.

    • #47
  18. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

     I think in some cases, “spiritual, but not religious” may come from not having a spiritual/religious home. This can come about in a number of ways. As Philo said in the first comment, sometimes one’s movement moves away from where it was when one was taught or what its fundamentals used to be. I think Martin Luther could identify with that sentiment. Sometimes what one is taught turns out to be a minority understanding within the larger movement. I think in many, many cases, it is because people are taught very poorly what the tenets of the religion are and the reasons for coming together in churches are taught poorly as well. That’s why there are so many “recovering Catholics” out there. Many of our Roman Catholic members on Ricochet seem to have been taught well. Most others I have known were not taught well. The only thing they learned was that nuns could move very quickly with their rulers.

    In the young, it is especially not unusual for some bit of hypocrisy to divert one away from one’s native church. Scandals in the church/religious movement, whether international or local, can drive people to other “parishes,” other denominations, or even sour people on the whole of their native religion. Sometimes religion gets blamed for things for which the venality of people is more responsible. During the Reformation and Counter-Reformation periods, many things were done by secular leaders in the name of the church. Reviewing the history, many might think, “This church did horrible things,” but the truth was that secular leaders did horrible things. (Think Henry VIII and his daughter Mary I, for instance.)

    For any of these reasons and probably more, there people find themselves, cast out, homeless. They might seek out other parishes, as I said above. They might explore other denominations. They might explore other religions and traditions. But until they commit themselves, until they find a new home, they may use those words to deflect the conversation if anyone pries into their spiritual affairs. “I’m spiritual, but not religious” might be considered to sound better than, “I’m spiritually homeless through no fault of my own.”

    • #48
  19. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):
    I concur with Kent – and object to Susan’s characterization of my lack of belief as “self-centered” and detrimental to my family, community and country. I find those characterizations to apply more often to religious belief than to lack thereof.

    I was speaking of people who consider themselves to be spiritual, @catorand. I thought you were an atheist.

    I am an agnostic.  Atheism can be as dogmatic as fervent religious belief.  I’m in the “how would I know? – there’s no good evidence either way” camp.

    I did, however read your later comments and learn that the self-centered/anti-social charges in the OP weren’t directed toward people like me.  I’m not sure that makes them any better, but at least it puts me out of the line of fire.

    • #49
  20. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    @catorand and perhaps to @heavywater, too. If you guys read my comments on @iwe‘s recent post on religion, you would have seen my comments about atheists. (I believe you both might be atheists.) I was condescending, because I had encountered atheists who were condescending to people of religion. I have the impression, correct me if I’m wrong, that you both don’t connect with religion or spirituality, but have no problem with people who take that path. I bring this up because as I said in an earlier comment, I don’t care what people believe, but rather how they act, especially in relationship to others. So if I insulted either of you on this post or elsewhere, I apologize. My purpose in this post was directed to people who call themselves spiritual and not religious.

    I have no problem who people who take that (religious) path and take an equally “live and let live” approach to me.  When religious people condescend, or prosthelytize after I’ve told them I’m not interested, I have a small problem with them.  When they attempt to infringe on my freedoms by instantiating values I don’t share in the law, I have a big problem with them.

    So while I believe it’s very important in a society as diverse as ours to accept that our values and modes of life will be different, and to be friendly and kind to, and respectful of, people who are different from us.  I also think it’s a two way street.  It’s not just something I owe the religious.  It’s also something they owe me, as a condition of living together in peace.  If a religious person wants their values, views and lifestyles respected, they need to reciprocate or all bets are off.  I am open minded and tolerant, but I am not a patsy.

    At the risk of derailing the thread, this is the problem the Jack Phillips’ of the world face.  I think we should be tolerant of him running his bakery in accordance with his now minority religious views.  But a lot of people think – and they have a point – that when his views were ascendant, he and people like him weren’t so tolerant of the gay people of whom he  disapproves.   So, they reason, why give him a break now that the shoe’s on the other foot?

    I disagree with that view.  I think we (the country) will all be better off if we (the gays) turn the other cheek with respect to our culture’s historic homophobia.  But I understand the “screw him” view and I don’t doubt that if Jack Phillips was made emperor, my marriage would be outlawed tomorrow.  So I understand the instinct to crush him before his ilk can regroup, even as I don’t think it either right or wise.  To some people, it looks like a simple matter of self defense.  That’s too bad but the only way I see to change it is to start practicing reciprocal respect.

    • #50
  21. Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu Inactive
    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu
    @YehoshuaBenEliyahu

    My biggest problem is with sermonizers.  It is hard for me to lend any credibility to one who stands in front of a crowd and gives a religious discourse, which almost always tells other people how to live.  Only trust a sermonizer who starts with this disclaimer:  “any course of behavior which I advise you to adopt applies to me as well.  I have a long way to travel when it comes to improving myself and my relationship with G-d.”  I also don’t trust the religious costume wearers; I think they are hiding behind their garb.  Lastly, I have trouble with long beards.  The longer the beard, the more difficult it seems to be to develop any sort of rapport with the person who grows it.  To summarize:  the externals of religion, the verbiage and appearance, mean nothing.  Actions are everything.

    • #51
  22. Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu Inactive
    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu
    @YehoshuaBenEliyahu

    Cato Rand (View Comment):
    Atheism can be as dogmatic as fervent religious belief.

    From my experience, atheists are more obssessed with G-d than believers, who take G-d for granted, even while entertaining certain doubts about Him.

    • #52
  23. Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu Inactive
    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu
    @YehoshuaBenEliyahu

    People who argue about the existence of G-d are like fish who argue about the existence of water.

    • #53
  24. Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu Inactive
    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu
    @YehoshuaBenEliyahu

    When I worked with drug addicts, I heard this line:  “Religion is for people who are afraid of hell; spirituality is for those who have been there.”  At the time, I thought it was brilliant, but now “spirituality” just sounds new agey and a complete drag.

    • #54
  25. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    I think it takes a person of high character to have to guts to question a set of beliefs that one was taught since childhood.

    Excellent comment, @heavywater. Religion can have an effect on one’s character, but as you’ve said, not necessarily. I think it is valuable for people to look at their religions at any point with a critical eye, not necessarily to tear them apart, but to understand them more deeply. I’ve said a number of times that Judaism is built around questioning and dialogue; people in the Torah argued with G-d. That works for me!

    • #55
  26. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Arahant (View Comment):

    I think in some cases, “spiritual, but not religious” may come from not having a spiritual/religious home. This can come about in a number of ways. As Philo said in the first comment, sometimes one’s movement moves away from where it was when one was taught or what its fundamentals used to be. I think Martin Luther could identify with that sentiment. Sometimes what one is taught turns out to be a minority understanding within the larger movement. I think in many, many cases, it is because people are taught very poorly what the tenets of the religion are and the reasons for coming together in churches are taught poorly as well. That’s why there are so many “recovering Catholics” out there. Many of our Roman Catholic members on Ricochet seem to have been taught well. Most others I have known were not taught well. The only thing they learned was that nuns could move very quickly with their rulers.

    In the young, it is especially not unusual for some bit of hypocrisy to divert one away from one’s native church. Scandals in the church/religious movement, whether international or local, can drive people to other “parishes,” other denominations, or even sour people on the whole of their native religion. Sometimes religion gets blamed for things for which the venality of people is more responsible. During the Reformation and Counter-Reformation periods, many things were done by secular leaders in the name of the church. Reviewing the history, many might think, “This church did horrible things,” but the truth was that secular leaders did horrible things. (Think Henry VIII and his daughter Mary I, for instance.)

    For any of these reasons and probably more, there people find themselves, cast out, homeless. They might seek out other parishes, as I said above. They might explore other denominations. They might explore other religions and traditions. But until they commit themselves, until they find a new home, they may use those words to deflect the conversation if anyone pries into their spiritual affairs. “I’m spiritual, but not religious” might be considered to sound better than, “I’m spiritually homeless through no fault of my own.”

    Beautifully said, @arahant. To be spiritually homeless must be a desolate place to be.

    • #56
  27. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Cato Rand (View Comment):
    It’s not just something I owe the religious. It’s also something they owe me, as a condition of living together in peace. If a religious person wants their values, views and lifestyles respected, they need to reciprocate or all bets are off. I am open minded and tolerant, but I am not a patsy.

    I’m with you, @catorand. And I point to a person’s behavior rather than beliefs (and I think you do, too). I like to remind people that I dated an anti-Semite in college for a bit. He broke off with me–couldn’t handle the cognitive dissonance of liking me and hating me–but I was curious about him and his views. I know the relationship wouldn’t have gone far, but it was a learning experience.

    Cato Rand (View Comment):
    I disagree with that view. I think we (the country) will all be better off if we (the gays) turn the other cheek with respect to our culture’s historic homophobia. But I understand the “screw him” view and I don’t doubt that if Jack Phillips was made emperor, my marriage would be outlawed tomorrow. So I understand the instinct to crush him before his ilk can regroup, even as I don’t think it either right or wise. To some people, it looks like a simple matter of self defense. That’s too bad but the only way I see to change it is to start practicing reciprocal respect.

    I also understand this view, and I respect your belief about moving on. It brings us all together rather than tearing us apart. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

    • #57
  28. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu (View Comment):
    To summarize: the externals of religion, the banter and the appearance, mean nothing. Actions are everything.

    Especially this. Thanks, YBE!

    • #58
  29. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu (View Comment):
    The longer the beard, the more difficult it seems to be to develop any sort of rapport with the person who grows it.

    Does it depend on why they grow it? If it’s for religious reasons, I can understand he might not be relatable for most people. But what if he lives in a cold environment? Or his wife likes it? Or he is just a bit lazy and hates shaving and trims his beard infrequently?

    • #59
  30. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):
    Atheism can be as dogmatic as fervent religious belief.

    From my experience, atheists are more obssessed with G-d than believers, who take G-d for granted, even while entertaining certain doubts about Him.

    I once mentioned to our pastor that some of the most religious people I knew on the internet were atheists. This was in a group discussion, and he didn’t seem to want to follow up on my comment.  But I had observed the same thing you have. 

     

    • #60
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