It Could Be Suicide or Murder. But Incompetence Is a Certainty.

 

A question that @paddysiochain has asked needs to be answered: Is it even possible that Jeffrey Epstein was an actual suicide? Sure it is. Anyone remember the Baader-Meinhof gang? German terrorists of the Seventies, a cross between Antifa and the Manson family. Their leaders were caught and mysteriously committed suicide in jail. Almost everyone who’s seen the subsequent evidence says that it’s airtight: they really did commit suicide. But they were so high profile, and suicide seemingly so improbable, that on that day and for decades after, the hard Left and the hard Right don’t believe it.

Epstein’s world collapsed faster and more comprehensively than Harvey Weinstein’s. After his arrest, he was incredulous that he wasn’t offered a bail deal. He’d never see freedom again, let alone Lolita Island. Yes, I could see him as a suicide. Maybe. But…

When NYPD turned someone over to Federal custody (a rare experience for a uniformed officer), the MCC is where they were processed; it’s relatively modern. The high-profile guys are kept in 10 South, where the lights and CCTV cameras are on 24/7.

If after all this publicity Epstein wasn’t in 10 South, either people were idiots or money changed hands somewhere. If this was murder: However much it was, it ain’t going to be enough. Not this time. Some jailers are going to jail, and there’s not going to be any “Shawshank” payoff when they get out. Which prison psych took him off suicide watch? Which prison official put him in a cell without cameras? I’d seize and scan the socials, bank statements, etc., of MCC staff top to bottom. When I said this in the PIT, @Django replied,I’m even more cynical than you are, Gary. I’d look, sometime, in the near future, for a guard whose performance evaluations went from mediocre to superstar and who got an unexpected promotion and substantial raise.”

The Dems had far more reason to “off” Epstein than the GOP. But let’s not brush away an unpleasant fact: This is not an NYC problem, it’s a federal facility, Attorney General Barr was in charge. I know, the bureaucracy, the permanent government, etc., etc. – but even if the Deep Blue bureaucracy was 15 levels deep, the AG could have picked up the phone and said, like every pundit in America was yelling, “If anything happens to this guy, your [butt] is on the line – no excuses, no mercy.” There’s no sign he did so. If this had been AG Rudy Giuliani, he would have moved his office staff to the MCC just to keep an eye on them. Does this make President Trump a conspirator? Of course not. But murder or suicide, some of his appointees showed total incompetence, with nobody to hand it off to. They let this happen and some of them better suffer for it.

There are about a dozen, maybe a hundred ways they could have kept him alive. Sure, none are ever perfect, but let ’em try. I’ve mentioned that they have a unit with constant video surveillance. They could have put that camera on a net feed. If I’d been AG Barr I would have ordered that, and quietly ordered a rotating squad of loyalists to monitor the feed 24/7 in shifts

As Adm. Rickover said, “You can delegate authority. You cannot delegate responsibility.”

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There are 65 comments.

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  1. Percival Thatcher

    How many prisoners has the MCC lost before this?

    What was Epstein’s status with regards to suicide watch?

    If he had been n it, as was reported,was he taken off of it? How does the process work? How long does it take?

    • #1
    • August 11, 2019, at 12:15 AM PDT
    • 7 likes
  2. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey Post author

    If Jeffrey Epstein had to be kept in NYC to ensure counsel’s access to Fed Southern District courts, he could have been kept at Fort Totten, a secure military facility only a few miles east of Riker’s Island, the NYC facility that has encrypted video conferencing with all Manhattan courts. He could have been (literally) ferried, or he could have been transferred by car in fifteen minutes. 

    • #2
    • August 11, 2019, at 12:26 AM PDT
    • 10 likes
  3. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey Post author

    Percival (View Comment):

    How many prisoners has the MCC lost before this?

    What was Epstein’s status with regards to suicide watch?

    If he had been n it, as was reported,was he taken off of it? How does the process work? How long does it take?

    In 43 years, it’s lost a few to suicide but not many. Epstein was off suicide watch. There’s no delay or real review built into the process; a doc or panel of CYA docs says OK and he goes back to normal status. Usually, prisoners fight surveillance legally. 

    • #3
    • August 11, 2019, at 12:31 AM PDT
    • 5 likes
  4. Kevin Schulte Member

    Yesterday, Putin was thinking. 

    “Nice work!”

    • #4
    • August 11, 2019, at 12:56 AM PDT
    • 4 likes
  5. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey Post author

    Kevin Schulte (View Comment):

    Yesterday, Putin was thinking.

    “Nice work!”

    Tradecraft is tradecraft. Even Detroit admires the 1mm panel gaps in auto assembly welding that its Japanese and Korean rivals have made routine. Russian spying is like Italian shoes, British law, or American cowgirl hot pants: the very best that international competition has produced. 

    • #5
    • August 11, 2019, at 1:03 AM PDT
    • 14 likes
  6. OccupantCDN Coolidge

    Gary McVey:

    There are about a dozen, maybe a hundred ways they could have kept him alive. Sure, none are ever perfect, but let ’em try. I’ve mentioned that they have a unit with constant video surveillance. They could have put that camera on a net feed. If I’d been AG Barr I would have ordered that, and quietly ordered a rotating squad of loyalists to monitor the feed 24/7 in shifts

    “You can delegate authority. You cannot delegate responsibility”–Adm. Rickover.

    The buck stops here! they often cry, but there are enough stops along the route, that this particular buck never arrived! It was on its way, but events overtook it. The schmo who’s #32 at the DOJ in the NYC office is to blame. Its with regret his resignation has been accepted. He’ll start his new job, at some wall street firm, next month – after some time with family on a beach somewhere. It has to be August somewhere.

    • #6
    • August 11, 2019, at 3:43 AM PDT
    • 8 likes
  7. PHCheese Member

    Democrats screamed during WJC impeachment it was just about sex, yep this was just about sex also. What a bunch of perverts. All those visitors to that island should share the same fate. I have a 15 year old granddaughter. Epstein got what he deserved just not soon enough.

    • #7
    • August 11, 2019, at 4:58 AM PDT
    • 3 likes
  8. Kozak Member

    Incompetence?

    Seems to me the result is exactly what was wanted.

    • #8
    • August 11, 2019, at 5:03 AM PDT
    • 13 likes
  9. Steve C. Member

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Kevin Schulte (View Comment):

    Yesterday, Putin was thinking.

    “Nice work!”

    Tradecraft is tradecraft. Even Detroit admires the 1mm panel gaps in auto assembly welding that its Japanese and Korean rivals have made routine. Russian spying is like Italian shoes, British law, or American cowgirl hot pants: the very best that international competition has produced.

    Russian espionage only looks good by way of comparison to our own overly bureaucratic and legally enfeebled agencies. 

    • #9
    • August 11, 2019, at 6:12 AM PDT
    • 6 likes
  10. Steve C. Member

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Incompetence?

    Seems to me the result is exactly what was wanted.

    Nobody expects an Epstein suicide.
    • #10
    • August 11, 2019, at 6:16 AM PDT
    • 4 likes
  11. Stina Member

    Gary McVey: Sure it is. Anyone remember the Baader-Meinhof gang? German terrorists of the Seventies, a cross between antifa and the Manson family. Their leaders were caught and mysteriously committed suicide in jail.

    Using a datapoints from 50 years ago is a kind of anachronism, because it assumes that events like this haven’t informed our current policies on suicide and incarceration.

    I know that we have developed policies and architecture to prevent these events, especially among those being used as witnesses.

    It isn’t unbelievable he would WANT to commit suicide. What is unbelievable is that he had the means and opportunity to do so.

    • #11
    • August 11, 2019, at 7:04 AM PDT
    • 5 likes
  12. Susan Quinn Contributor

    This will be an excellent example of whether the Trump administration has the ability to challenge and hold accountable those who are still arrogant enough to think they can pull off this disaster. Heads should roll, and if they don’t the picture is really ugly.

    • #12
    • August 11, 2019, at 7:13 AM PDT
    • 9 likes
  13. Juliana Member

    Could there be an international aspect to this as well? I read somewhere that His Royal Pigness, Prince Andrew was also involved. I find it hard to believe this was just a US criminal operation.

    • #13
    • August 11, 2019, at 7:20 AM PDT
    • 3 likes
  14. Barfly Member

    Gary McVey: “You can delegate authority. You cannot delegate responsibility”–Adm. Rickover.

    Quote of the Day material.

    • #14
    • August 11, 2019, at 8:55 AM PDT
    • 5 likes
  15. Barfly Member

    Juliana (View Comment):

    Could there be an international aspect to this as well? I read somewhere that His Royal Pigness, Prince Andrew was also involved. I find it hard to believe this was just a US criminal operation.

    There’s a UK angle to the Russia Hoax as well. Deep state indeed. Maybe it’s a reminder we’re dealing with the international form of leftism, not merely the national.

    • #15
    • August 11, 2019, at 9:03 AM PDT
    • 6 likes
  16. Steve C. Member

    Barfly (View Comment):

    Gary McVey: “You can delegate authority. You cannot delegate responsibility”–Adm. Rickover.

    Quote of the Day material.

    Greatness courts failure.
    • #16
    • August 11, 2019, at 9:05 AM PDT
    • 2 likes
  17. Steve C. Member

    Barfly (View Comment):

    Juliana (View Comment):

    Could there be an international aspect to this as well? I read somewhere that His Royal Pigness, Prince Andrew was also involved. I find it hard to believe this was just a US criminal operation.

    There’s a UK angle to the Russia Hoax as well. Deep state indeed. Maybe it’s a reminder we’re dealing with the international form of leftism, not merely the national.

    I find it hard to believe the Brits would do anything extraordinary to rescue the reputation of a guy who is now eighth in line of succession and getting further away every year.

    • #17
    • August 11, 2019, at 9:09 AM PDT
    • 2 likes
  18. Fritz Member

    I find it curious that the current Warden of this NY MCC, one Shirley Skipper-Scott, worked as a “social scientist” in the federal system for several years at the GS-12 level (source: https://www.federalpay.org/employees/bureau-of-prisons-federal-prison-system/skipper-scott-shirley-v ).

    Then, she sued AG Eric Holder for employment discrimination in 2013 (Mississippi SD, # 3:13-cv-00017 ), resolved the case in 2016, and saw her career blossom into federal prison administration at the GS-14 level, i.e., in the top 10% of federal payscale, thereafter.

    So the top administrator in charge of this highest of high profile prisons, one that has held some of the most notorious criminals and defendants, has all of three years’ administrative experience?

    Wow. Just wow.

    • #18
    • August 11, 2019, at 9:53 AM PDT
    • 11 likes
  19. Eugene Kriegsmann Member

    There is an article on Foxnews quoting an inmate of the Manhattan Correction Center who states unequivocally that it is impossible to do what Epstein is alleged to have done. There simply aren’t any materials which could be used, i.e., the sheets are essentially paper thin and wouldn’t hold a two hundred pound man. There are no bars or light fixtures which could be used to attach a “rope” to. Having said that, I have had experience in the criminal justice system, specifically teachng in Juvenile Hall in Seattle. The first and most important lesson you learn is that inmates and previous inmates are generally pathological liars. I also learned that they are capable of an incredible number of seemingly impossible stunts, at least seemingly impossible to someone who is handicapped by a sense of morality and decency which they certainly are not. The problem with guards, if the Juvenile Correction Officers are a good example, is that they become contaminated by their constant contact with criminals and lose a good deal of their own integrity and decency. It is a nasty environment in which just about anything can be made to happen if it is desired and paid for. Personally, I think Epstein was wasted by someone else. I seriously doubt that a man of his immense ego would collapse so easily, particularly when he likely held so many potential bargaining chips.

    • #19
    • August 11, 2019, at 12:24 PM PDT
    • 12 likes
  20. EJHill Podcaster

    Eugene Kriegsmann: …particularly when he likely held so many potential bargaining chips.

    Except he didn’t hold them anymore. Whatever he held is likely now in the possession of the Feds. Someone wants this story to end like Raiders of the Lost Ark.

    • #20
    • August 11, 2019, at 12:36 PM PDT
    • 6 likes
  21. Eugene Kriegsmann Member

    EJHill (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann: …particularly when he likely held so many potential bargaining chips.

    Except he didn’t hold them anymore. Whatever he held is likely now in the possession of the Feds. Someone wants this story to end like Raiders of the Lost Ark.

    EJ, they may have the information, but without his direct testimony it may not be worth anything in court. Epstein making those allegations in court would have been far more valuable to a prosecutor. Now all they have is depositions. I do agree that they want this buried deeper than Epstein will be.

    • #21
    • August 11, 2019, at 12:41 PM PDT
    • 6 likes
  22. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey Post author

    Stina (View Comment):

    Gary McVey: Sure it is. Anyone remember the Baader-Meinhof gang? German terrorists of the Seventies, a cross between antifa and the Manson family. Their leaders were caught and mysteriously committed suicide in jail.

    Using a datapoints from 50 years ago is a kind of anachronism, because it assumes that events like this haven’t informed our current policies on suicide and incarceration.

    I know that we have developed policies and architecture to prevent these events, especially among those being used as witnesses.

    It isn’t unbelievable he would WANT to commit suicide. What is unbelievable is that he had the means and opportunity to do so.

    I was responding to people who say outright, “This just can’t be suicide”. Of course it could. 

    What is unbelievable is that he had the means and opportunity to do so.

    The whole point of my post. Somebody down below let it happen–but Trump loyalists on top had the power to change the script and all the warnings in the world. They didn’t. That’s what I call incompetence. 

    • #22
    • August 11, 2019, at 12:50 PM PDT
    • 5 likes
  23. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey Post author

    Steve C. (View Comment):

    Barfly (View Comment):

    Juliana (View Comment):

    Could there be an international aspect to this as well? I read somewhere that His Royal Pigness, Prince Andrew was also involved. I find it hard to believe this was just a US criminal operation.

    There’s a UK angle to the Russia Hoax as well. Deep state indeed. Maybe it’s a reminder we’re dealing with the international form of leftism, not merely the national.

    I find it hard to believe the Brits would do anything extraordinary to rescue the reputation of a guy who is now eighth in line of succession and getting further away every year.

    Yep. Mickey Kaus thinks Mossad is a possibility. I’m cautious about blaming an allied intelligence service, though. Too many anti-Israel kooks would seize on it. 

    • #23
    • August 11, 2019, at 12:53 PM PDT
    • 2 likes
  24. Instugator Thatcher

    Gary McVey (View Comment):
    Yep. Mickey Kaus thinks Mossad is a possibility. I’m cautious about blaming an allied intelligence service, though. Too many anti-Israel kooks would seize on it. 

    Sorry, but I am not understanding either the Russian motive or the Israeli motive. I could see the Clinton motive, but their power is on the wane without prospects of getting better.

    Epstein is dead*, but his actions involved others, some of whom have been named specifically (Gov Bill Richardson, anyone?).

    I expect the cases against them to go forward.

    *(Unless, Epstein isn’t really dead, just, ahem, kept on ice somewhere while the investigation continues.)

    • #24
    • August 11, 2019, at 1:46 PM PDT
    • 1 like
  25. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey Post author

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):
    Yep. Mickey Kaus thinks Mossad is a possibility. I’m cautious about blaming an allied intelligence service, though. Too many anti-Israel kooks would seize on it.

    Sorry, but I am not understanding either the Russian motive or the Israeli motive. I could see the Clinton motive, but their power is on the wane without prospects of getting better.

    Epstein is dead*, but his actions involved others, some of whom have been named specifically (Gov Bill Richardson, anyone?).

    I expect the cases against them to go forward.

    *(Unless, Epstein isn’t really dead, just, ahem, kept on ice somewhere while the investigation continues.)

    It’s been suggested that Epstein was in the business of gathering compromising material. Why Mickey thinks Ehud Barak might be involved somehow is detailed in KausFiles. I’m not endorsing his view, just noting it. 

    Agreed about the Clintons. If this were 2006, yeah. What’s the point now? 

    • #25
    • August 11, 2019, at 1:51 PM PDT
    • 2 likes
  26. Fritz Member

    Slightly OT, but having once heard NYC described as consisting of a thousand small towns, here’s one for the small world department:

    In reading some background (in the UK’s Daily Mail) on Epstein, I learned that his first job after he’d dropped out of Cooper Union was teaching (even without a degree) at a NYC private school (the Dalton school), which is where he met the Bear Stearns CEO whose kids were students, and who gave Epstein his first job in finance.

    When Epstein was teaching at the Dalton School, the headmaster was then a gentleman named Donald Barr, whose son is now the US Attorney General. Is it possible that AG Barr’s father hired Epstein to teach? Could a writer get away with this in a novel???

     

    • #26
    • August 11, 2019, at 2:18 PM PDT
    • 6 likes
  27. Judge Mental Member

    Eugene Kriegsmann (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    Eugene Kriegsmann: …particularly when he likely held so many potential bargaining chips.

    Except he didn’t hold them anymore. Whatever he held is likely now in the possession of the Feds. Someone wants this story to end like Raiders of the Lost Ark.

    EJ, they may have the information, but without his direct testimony it may not be worth anything in court. Epstein making those allegations in court would have been far more valuable to a prosecutor. Now all they have is depositions. I do agree that they want this buried deeper than Epstein will be.

    Don’t be surprised if his depositions are declared inadmissible. Defendants right to cross-examine.

    • #27
    • August 11, 2019, at 4:08 PM PDT
    • 2 likes
  28. Western Chauvinist Member

    Gary McVey (View Comment):
    Agreed about the Clintons. If this were 2006, yeah. What’s the point now? 

    Because, while it’s unseemly for a major party candidate to be credibly accused of exposing national secrets to hostile foreign interception, it’s unfathomable for a past president to be charged with rape of minors and to see him frogmarched into a correctional facility. People have been known to commit lesser crimes to keep up appearances. 

    • #28
    • August 11, 2019, at 4:37 PM PDT
    • 5 likes
  29. Western Chauvinist Member

    You hear things about these high profile cases and can’t be sure of the accuracy. But, if what I heard is true, the man just attempted suicide a few weeks ago and he then spent one week on suicide watch (where the bed is bolted to the floor and there is no bedding and the prisoner is surrounded on four sides by windows with security cameras running 24/7) before moving back to regular detention. One week! If this is true, it seems only someone grossly incompetent or someone bought and paid for was making the decisions. Since it’s hard to imagine anyone that incompetent, we get conspiracy theories. 

    I’m with Trey Gowdy. Wait for the evidence to come in and pity the monster’s victims. 

    • #29
    • August 11, 2019, at 4:44 PM PDT
    • 3 likes
  30. Django Member

    AP is reporting the “official excuse”. 

    I wonder if any of the reporters has ever had to do an engineering “Root Cause Analysis” (RCA). This can be solved with no more than five questions. 

    https://start.att.net/news/read/article/the_associated_press-epstein_dies_in_the_dark_but_abuse_investigation_c-ap/category/news

    • #30
    • August 11, 2019, at 4:52 PM PDT
    • 1 like
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