They Didn’t Have Bone Spurs – Or Fallopian Tubes

 

Whoopi Goldberg, famous for playing herself in a nun’s habit, dreadlocks, and her unwavering support for the Vietnam War (you didn’t know that?) has used her platform on The Stew to attack our President for avoiding the draft due to “bone spurs”. There are several things wrong with this approach which I doubt The Stew audience will grasp, but let’s get the easy ones out of the way first.

The Vietnam War was different than WWII in nature. (I hope our Democrat friends can accept that statement without my having to elaborate)

It was a different era, a different zeitgeist, and we will never know if Donald Trump would have tried to avoid that war (although I suspect he wouldn’t have, since at minimum being labeled 4-F was for ‘losers’, as Trump haters might imagine him saying, and a cynic would imagine him vying for an officers job away from combat due to his military school background, but couldn’t do such a thing without impugning almost every other military officer). In those days, men really didn’t have a choice but to join the service without social repercussions.

Trump was asked about this the other day by Piers Morgan, and I thought he gave a remarkably candid answer. He said it was a different war and he did not agree with it. He did not claim any real handicap from bone spurs.

Anyone living during that era knew hundreds of young men who were finding some loophole to avoid being sent to a jungle ambush in Southeast Asia. You could even get a ‘student deferment’ which worked for the better-heeled. 

While I won’t assign heroism to this diverse group that ranges from exiles to Canada to simple college students and people pretending to be gay or crazy, I’m neither going to condemn them after learning the background and nature of that war. Neither will I claim this lack of enthusiasm to serve in that era disqualifies a man from being President ( including Bill Clinton) or for giving speeches lauding the heroism of Americans. At least as long as he doesn’t claim hero-status for himself.

So now to my main point:

I’ve gotten so used to hearing the phrase “the men and women who fought and died…” that I was a bit shocked at hearing the references to the “men who fought and died” on the beaches of Normandy, absent the inclusion of “women”. Quickly I realized it was accurate. No women were there to die, or even fight. Not one. Note, this is not a slight on females or their overall contribution ( including being the mothers of these young men) to the war effort.

For about as long as this phrase has been in common use, I’ve been somewhat annoyed, since, even today, the number of men who die in battle and in our modern ‘wars’ amount to about 99% of all casualties, yet women as a gender class get 50% of the credit (albeit men still get top billing at least). Even today it is only men who must register for the draft, and it looks like that ‘right’ remains uncontested by our feminist sisters and brothers. I’m unaware of Whoopi’s position on making her sisters required to register for Selective Service, or in a retrospective hypothetical, whether Whoopi would have refused any loopholes herself so as to be drafted to heroically serve her country in Vietnam.

Our new logical standards, promoted mostly but not exclusively by women, dictate that if only one woman out of a hundred is a casualty of war, or invented some part of a telescope, then she stands as a representative of her gender and shouldn’t be overlooked. This is fair enough. She should not be overlooked, but does her entire gender get rhetorical credit by mere proxy? Somehow the obvious must remain unacknowledged.

Nevertheless, when women are disproportionately affected by something, whether it’s jobs in science and maths, or pregnancy (100%, but lessening due to modern advances in ‘medicine’) it’s either a societal problem that must be addressed and/or some political right that females have special privileges to control, even to the exclusion of male input or sensibilities.

In this spirit, I contend that Whoopi, or any female not having served in the US military in a combat division in the Vietnam era (which is every female in existence), has no right to criticize Trump’s draft status or even question the validity of his medical claim of bone spurs.

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  1. MichaelKennedy Inactive
    MichaelKennedy
    @MichaelKennedy

    Heel spurs are still disqualifying. I spent years examining recruits.  One exercise is heel walking which will detect bone spurs.  I imagine that, if Trump had them, the docs would have verified that by x-ray.

    • #1
  2. Bishop Wash Member
    Bishop Wash
    @BishopWash

    Franco: I’ve gotten so used to hearing the phrase “the men and women who fought and died…” that I was a bit shocked at hearing the references to the “men who fought and died” on the beaches of Normandy, absent the inclusion of “women”. Quickly I realized it was accurate. No women were there to die, or even fight. Not one.

    The automatic inclusion of women to every list can cause some odd outcomes. “Any time you go upside a man’s head…or a woman’s…”

    • #2
  3. Franco Member
    Franco
    @Franco

    MichaelKennedy (View Comment):

    Heel spurs are still disqualifying. I spent years examining recruits. One exercise is heel walking which will detect bone spurs. I imagine that, if Trump had them, the docs would have verified that by x-ray.

    Thanks for this. Everything that disqualifies a recruit is fair game. Our military has an absolute right to be picky. In fact, we all know how everyone in the platoon suffers if one guy ( or, ahem… gal) can’t perform.

    Nevertheless I thought it wise, and quasi-admirable, that Trump chose not to defend himself on those grounds.

     

    • #3
  4. Bishop Wash Member
    Bishop Wash
    @BishopWash

    Franco (View Comment):

    MichaelKennedy (View Comment):

    Heel spurs are still disqualifying. I spent years examining recruits. One exercise is heel walking which will detect bone spurs. I imagine that, if Trump had them, the docs would have verified that by x-ray.

    Thanks for this. Everything that disqualifies a recruit is fair game. Our military has an absolute right to be picky. In fact, we all know how everyone in the platoon suffers if one guy ( or, ahem… gal) can’t perform.

    Nevertheless I thought it wise, and quasi-admirable, that Trump chose not to defend himself on those grounds.

    He seems to be learning during his time in office. Andrew Klavan pointed out the difference between Trump at his first National Prayer Breakfast, months after the inauguration, and his second. At the first Trump made some irreverent jokes, typical of Trump. A year later his remarks were appropriate for the venue.

    • #4
  5. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Franco: Trump was asked about this the other day by Piers Morgan, and I thought he gave a remarkably candid answer. He said it was a different war and he did not agree with it. He did not claim any real handicap from bone spurs.

    Of course, that it was a different kind of war was fake news promulgated by the commies, such as Jane Fonda.

    • #5
  6. Bishop Wash Member
    Bishop Wash
    @BishopWash

    MichaelKennedy (View Comment):

    Heel spurs are still disqualifying. I spent years examining recruits. One exercise is heel walking which will detect bone spurs. I imagine that, if Trump had them, the docs would have verified that by x-ray.

    One hopes that there’s a purpose behind all of the seemingly silly acts one is put through at MEPS. Thanks for the reasoning behind that one.

    • #6
  7. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Franco: In this spirit, I contend that Whoopi, or any female not having served in the US military in a combat division in the Vietnam era (which is every female in existence), has no right to criticize Trump’s draft status or even question the validity of his medical claim of bone spurs.

    Like many arguments on the left, the “lack of Vietnam service” rings hollow.  My late brother-in-law had flat feet and was thus ruled 4F.  Is he deemed a coward because he didn’t finagle his way into service?  No.

    I don’t begrudge AlGore for packing a typewriter in Vietnam.  He went.  The same with John Kerry.  Sure, his service once there raised questions when he ran for President, but he still went – and served on Swift Boats, not exactly a safe assignment.  Bill Clinton?  A liar and coward through and through – but he was deemed qualified to be President.

    So any harping about serving or not serving really doesn’t matter.  Trump is doing a job most Republican politicians won’t do, and that’s advance conservative causes the best he can.  No, he’s not going to deal with Social Security or Medicare & Medicaid, but he has done great with judges and is trying to seal the borders.

    Speaking of borders . . . someone made a comparison between the number of soldiers on D-Day and the number of illegals crashing our borders, and the difference was startling: we’re being flooded by a much larger invasion force.  The border with Mexico is our modern day Normandy . . .

    • #7
  8. Franco Member
    Franco
    @Franco

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Franco: Trump was asked about this the other day by Piers Morgan, and I thought he gave a remarkably candid answer. He said it was a different war and he did not agree with it. He did not claim any real handicap from bone spurs.

    Of course, that it was a different kind of war was fake news promulgated by the commies, such as Jane Fonda.

    Well, I’ve been around the block on this a couple of times. I went to Vietnam twice during the conflict on a merchant ship. I was young and wasn’t political, but my hippie friends were against it as was the fashion. I wasn’t drafted because my lottery number was very high and by that time the war was winding down anyway. 

    There was certainly communist propaganda and in my subsequent years I deplored the anti-war movement. It would have been good if our military was allowed to win the war and it wasn’t undermined. But maybe not, in retrospect. We really don’t know what would have happened. I honestly don’t know.

    However we do know now that it was very badly fought on our side and it was spectacularly unfair to those drafted and deployed. Our military leaders at the time were  too bloated and arrogant  and the war did not make the same kind of sense that WWII did by any measure. We didn’t take care of the Vietnam veterans well at all, and they had few real advocates in either party. Ultimately this as much as the failure itself harmed the standing of our military and our place in the world.

    Now that we have seen the results of Iraq and Afghanistan, two wars that were basically *won* with an all volunteer force, and we are still there while having spent trillions, having lost politically to a leftist Presidential candidate as a result, with not much to show for all that, I’m a lot more sympathetic to avoiding such engagements in the future.

    And there is also the question of what we are actually defending, I daresay. America needs to be defended at home against attacks on our Constitution. That’s the biggest threat. I’m not sending our sons and daughters overseas to fight to keep sea-lanes open when our borders are open, leftists reallocate wealth, free-speech has b come a meaningless trope, corporatists get every wish in Congress and elites are immune and indeed profit. Nope. Done with that.

    There’s still being right for the wrong reasons. Certainly I would still condemn Jane Fonda and other leftists for acts of treason, given that we were engaged already and our sons and brothers were at risk.

    • #8
  9. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Stad (View Comment):
    Trump is doing a job most Republican politicians won’t do, and that’s advance conservative causes the best he can.

    No kidding. Acts of love?!?

    Stad (View Comment):
    Speaking of borders . . . someone made a comparison between the number of soldiers on D-Day and the number of illegals crashing our borders, and the difference was startling: we’re being flooded by a much larger invasion force. The border with Mexico is our modern day Normandy . . .

    Much larger than many other invasions, too. Most of the invasions of Rome in the late Imperial period were much smaller.

    • #9
  10. Franco Member
    Franco
    @Franco

    Bishop Wash (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):

    MichaelKennedy (View Comment):

    Heel spurs are still disqualifying. I spent years examining recruits. One exercise is heel walking which will detect bone spurs. I imagine that, if Trump had them, the docs would have verified that by x-ray.

    Thanks for this. Everything that disqualifies a recruit is fair game. Our military has an absolute right to be picky. In fact, we all know how everyone in the platoon suffers if one guy ( or, ahem… gal) can’t perform.

    Nevertheless I thought it wise, and quasi-admirable, that Trump chose not to defend himself on those grounds.

    He seems to be learning during his time in office. Andrew Klavan pointed out the difference between Trump at his first National Prayer Breakfast, months after the inauguration, and his second. At the first Trump made some irreverent jokes, typical of Trump. A year later his remarks were appropriate for the venue.

    I always believed he is pretty good at adapting and I expected him to get better. This improvement has gone almost completely unnoticed by the ignorant left and the clueless Nevers. If you watch the mainstream news you will never see him at his best. I watch round table discussions and actual press conferences ( why listen to a reporter’s summary of what someone said when you don’t have to?) 

    I also noticed a distinct improvement in this area after Mick Mulvaney became Chief if Staff.

    Klavan gets it. So does Scott Adams. Most people are watching virtual Trump, not actual Trump. 

    • #10
  11. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Franco (View Comment):
    Most people are watching virtual Trump, not actual Trump.

    Agreed.

    • #11
  12. Misthiocracy secretly Member
    Misthiocracy secretly
    @Misthiocracy

    Franco: In this spirit, I contend that Whoopi, or any female not having served in the US military in a combat division in the Vietnam era (which is every female in existence), has no right to criticize Trump’s draft status or even question the validity of his medical claim of bone spurs.

    That’s an interesting point.  After all, nobody ever questioned Hilary Clinton’s failure to volunteer for military service after 1965 (when she turned 18).

    • #12
  13. PHCheese Inactive
    PHCheese
    @PHCheese

    Student deferment was just that a deferment not an exemption. I received 9 out of 10 allowable student deferments ,graduated from college in 1967 and then was drafted in to the Army for a 6 year obligation. Tens of thousands have had the same experience.

    • #13
  14. Judge Mental Member
    Judge Mental
    @JudgeMental

    I don’t think much of the argument that women shouldn’t be allowed to comment about war, but I would love to see someone toss it at Whoopi just for entertainment value.  Because I don’t think much of the argument that men can’t talk about abortion either.

    • #14
  15. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    Stad (View Comment):
    Like many arguments on the left, the “lack of Vietname service” rings hollow. My late brother-in-law had flat feet and was thus ruled 4F. Is he deemed a coward because he didn’t finagle his way into service? No.

    I was born with flat feet.  When I took the physical for West Point, I asked the doctor if it was disqualifying.  He said that flat feet weren’t disqualifying, it was fallen arches.  I never had any arches to fall.

    • #15
  16. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):
    Like many arguments on the left, the “lack of Vietname service” rings hollow. My late brother-in-law had flat feet and was thus ruled 4F. Is he deemed a coward because he didn’t finagle his way into service? No.

    I was born with flat feet. When I took the physical for West Point, I asked the doctor if it was disqualifying. He said that flat feet weren’t disqualifying, it was fallen arches. I never had any arches to fall.

    Whatever it takes to make one’s feet flat . . .

    • #16
  17. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Franco: Trump was asked about this the other day by Piers Morgan, and I thought he gave a remarkably candid answer. He said it was a different war and he did not agree with it. He did not claim any real handicap from bone spurs.

    Of course, that it was a different kind of war was fake news promulgated by the commies, such as Jane Fonda.

    Let’s not forget the likes of the sainted David Halberstam.

     

     

    • #17
  18. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    PHCheese (View Comment):

    Student deferment was just that a deferment not an exemption. I received 9 out of 10 allowable student deferments ,graduated from college in 1967 and then was drafted in to the Army for a 6 year obligation. Tens of thousands have had the same experience.

    I don’t usually get personal here, but still think about this.  I took two or three physicals at Fort Holabird in Baltimore after my deferment ran out, and failed them.  I was also what was known as a “sole supporting son” at the time.  I regret that today and most people tell me I’m nuts.

     

    • #18
  19. Basil Fawlty Member
    Basil Fawlty
    @BasilFawlty

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    PHCheese (View Comment):

    Student deferment was just that a deferment not an exemption. I received 9 out of 10 allowable student deferments ,graduated from college in 1967 and then was drafted in to the Army for a 6 year obligation. Tens of thousands have had the same experience.

    I don’t usually get personal here, but still think about this. I took two or three physicals at Fort Holabird in Baltimore after my deferment ran out, and failed them. I was also what was known as a “sole supporting son” at the time. I regret that today and most people tell me I’m nuts.

     

    I didn’t think it was possible to fail a Holabird physical.

    • #19
  20. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    Stad (View Comment):

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):
    Like many arguments on the left, the “lack of Vietname service” rings hollow. My late brother-in-law had flat feet and was thus ruled 4F. Is he deemed a coward because he didn’t finagle his way into service? No.

    I was born with flat feet. When I took the physical for West Point, I asked the doctor if it was disqualifying. He said that flat feet weren’t disqualifying, it was fallen arches. I never had any arches to fall.

    Whatever it takes to make one’s feet flat . . .

    I didn’t want to be disqualified.  West Point was a viable college option for me.

    • #20
  21. ctlaw Coolidge
    ctlaw
    @ctlaw

    Franco: In the hallowed Nassau Hall of Princeton, alumni who died in wars are chiseled in the marble wall, going back to our American Revolution. Very impressive. However, the last war in which a Princeton graduate died was the Korean War. Not one died in Vietnam.

    Where did you find that severely erroneous quote?

    https://blogs.princeton.edu/mudd/wp-content/uploads/sites/41/mt/docs/Vietnam_Memorials.pdf

    https://blogs.princeton.edu/mudd/2010/11/bronze-memorial-stars/

    • #21
  22. Franco Member
    Franco
    @Franco

    ctlaw (View Comment):

    Franco: In the hallowed Nassau Hall of Princeton, alumni who died in wars are chiseled in the marble wall, going back to our American Revolution. Very impressive. However, the last war in which a Princeton graduate died was the Korean War. Not one died in Vietnam.

    Where did you find that severely erroneous quote?

    https://blogs.princeton.edu/mudd/wp-content/uploads/sites/41/mt/docs/Vietnam_Memorials.pdf

    https://blogs.princeton.edu/mudd/2010/11/bronze-memorial-stars/

    It’s not a quote. I was there 10 years ago and there was no category for Vietnam on the wall or any names. Every other war was cited. I was somewhat shocked and looked specifically for it. I will look again since I go by there several times a year.

    I will remove that section from the post. Thanks. 

    I will check soon and see if it has changed or endeavor to find out why these men’s names are not honored in that building.

    • #22
  23. Joe Boyle Member
    Joe Boyle
    @JoeBoyle

    I was drafted in 68. Just about every male I knew was doing his very best to avoid Vietnam. None of this bothers me at all. What chaps my butt is sanctimonious crap I get from some childhood chums. They like to assert that their brave, pacifist, demonstrating, refusal is equal to the choice I made. I don’t buy it. I think, at the time, every male wondered about combat. I don’t have to wonder and they know that they avoided the test.

    • #23
  24. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Basil Fawlty (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    PHCheese (View Comment):

    Student deferment was just that a deferment not an exemption. I received 9 out of 10 allowable student deferments ,graduated from college in 1967 and then was drafted in to the Army for a 6 year obligation. Tens of thousands have had the same experience.

    I don’t usually get personal here, but still think about this. I took two or three physicals at Fort Holabird in Baltimore after my deferment ran out, and failed them. I was also what was known as a “sole supporting son” at the time. I regret that today and most people tell me I’m nuts.

    I didn’t think it was possible to fail a Holabird physical.

    Yeah.  Right time likely.  They did call me back, but I rode the bus at least twice with about 100 other “obvious” inductees from DC.  No problem meeting the numbers probably.

    I could tell you what the issues were, but it’s a little late now.

    • #24
  25. Basil Fawlty Member
    Basil Fawlty
    @BasilFawlty

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Basil Fawlty (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    PHCheese (View Comment):

    Student deferment was just that a deferment not an exemption. I received 9 out of 10 allowable student deferments ,graduated from college in 1967 and then was drafted in to the Army for a 6 year obligation. Tens of thousands have had the same experience.

    I don’t usually get personal here, but still think about this. I took two or three physicals at Fort Holabird in Baltimore after my deferment ran out, and failed them. I was also what was known as a “sole supporting son” at the time. I regret that today and most people tell me I’m nuts.

    I didn’t think it was possible to fail a Holabird physical.

    Yeah. Right time likely. They did call me back, but I rode the bus at least twice with about 100 other “obvious” inductees from DC. No problem meeting the numbers probably.

     

    I don’t think I’ll ever get over Local Board #2.

    • #25
  26. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler
    @Skyler

    We don’t need to refrain from noticing the sins of one just because someone we might favor someone else who also sins.

    Trump is not a perfect man.  No one claims that.  One of his imperfections involves his hubris at thinking that it’s okay for others to go off to die while he chases skirts.  In that respect he is not an admirable man.  But not all sins, even if unforgivable, are absolute bars against recognizing other virtues.

    Whoopi Goldberg is (apparently) a good actress.  According to some who claim expertise in making that analysis I guess.  But she is an idiot about politics and other matters.  I don’t have to admire her politics to admire her supposed acting.

    I won’t be forced into a box that way.  I can condemn Trump’s gaming the system to stay out of harm’s way and at the same time be thankful for many things he is doing or attempting to do that are saving our country.  Even then, I’m sure that not everything he does politically is something I would support; but that would be true of any politician, there are none I’d agree with 100%.

    • #26
  27. Franco Member
    Franco
    @Franco

    Skyler (View Comment):

    We don’t need to refrain from noticing the sins of one just because someone we might favor someone else who also sins.

    Trump is not a perfect man. No one claims that. One of his imperfections involves his hubris at thinking that it’s okay for others to go off to die while he chases skirts. In that respect he is not an admirable man. But not all sins, even if unforgivable, are absolute bars against recognizing other virtues.

    Whoopi Goldberg is (apparently) a good actress. According to some who claim expertise in making that analysis I guess. But she is an idiot about politics and other matters. I don’t have to admire her politics to admire her supposed acting.

    I won’t be forced into a box that way. I can condemn Trump’s gaming the system to stay out of harm’s way and at the same time be thankful for many things he is doing or attempting to do that are saving our country. Even then, I’m sure that not everything he does politically is something I would support; but that would be true of any politician, there are none I’d agree with 100%.

    I’m not sure I understand your first sentence.

    “One of his imperfections involves his hubris at thinking that it’s okay for others to go off to die while he chases skirts.”

    This framing is strange and extraordinarily judgmental. It ( seemingly) assumes we all have the same values and must dutifully submit ourselves to whatever the government wishes in order to somehow protect others from being called up. All this in an environment where millions of others are cheating the system. If you have bone spurs or flat feet, you’re ineligible. If you were gay at the time, you couldn’t serve. If you were female also. Moreover this was nothing close to total war and the type of war that needed all hands on deck for America’s very survival. Not even close.

    My birthday lottery number was in the mid 200’s, but the year before eligibility it was number 1. I almost had a heart attack when my birthday was a huge headline before I realized I was still one year away. 

    I fail to see any logic in that accusation. I’m open to try to understand your thinking. How does one guy who is rejected become some arrogant ass who thinks it’s okay for others to die? The skirt-chasing reference is a bit over the top also. What kind of person believes someone could be so despicable to have such a mindset?

     

     

    • #27
  28. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler
    @Skyler

    Franco (View Comment):

    I’m not sure I understand your first sentence.

    Yeah, the first sentence has a typo.  It should have read:

    “We don’t need to refrain from noticing the sins of one person just because someone else we might favor also sins.”

    Franco (View Comment):

    “One of his imperfections involves his hubris at thinking that it’s okay for others to go off to die while he chases skirts.”

    This framing is strange and extraordinarily judgmental.

    I am extremely judgmental and I thank you for noticing.  I judge others by their behavior and demand to be judged by my own.  

    I have no idea what your draft number was or wasn’t.  I am slightly too young to know how draft numbers even worked.  I wasn’t addressing your being drafted or not.  

    The system created by our elected government was that certain people should be drafted into the military.  Whereas I think Socrates was too extreme in requiring adherence to elected government’s dictates, there is an element of his actions that is true:  If we all ignore our government when it acts lawfully, then we are all in danger.  There is definitely a time to fight against the government.  If someone thought the draft was one of those times, then I disagree.  Protest is done by the ballot box and speech.  I don’t much like civil disobedience, as effective as it may seem to some.

    If you weren’t drafted, then I don’t know why you would be defensive.  You had no obligation.  However, if someone is defensive (and I’m not saying you are) because they weren’t drafted, that emotional response speaks to the truth of my position:  That military service when required is a moral obligation.  For millenia and indeed for all human experience people have valued men who fight for their people and spurned those who wouldn’t.  I’m not sure why we think we should be immune from such sentiments.

    So, if Trump avoided military service then he was wrong.  I don’t require politicians to be perfect.   What he does now is also important, and he’s been doing a lot of very good things recently.

    • #28
  29. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Hoyacon (View Comment):
    I regret that today and most people tell me I’m nuts.

    You are nuts.

    • #29
  30. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Skyler (View Comment):
    So, if Trump avoided military service then he was wrong. I don’t require politicians to be perfect. What he does now is also important, and he’s been doing a lot of very good things recently.

    I regret that I have but 1 like to give.

    • #30
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