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Practical Differences Between the Orthodox and Evangelicals
First Orthodox Cathedral built in Georgia in 1,000 years.
I am a Baptist and a missionary that was on the field for 14 years and I worked primarily in Georgia but other Orthodox countries as well. My experience with culturally Orthodox and faithful Orthodox believers are from these countries in descending order of interaction, Georgia, Russia, Romania, Ukraine, and America. I was inspired by this post from @heavywater on the conversion of the Bible Answers man to Orthodoxy. What I wanted to do here is to lay out the practical differences I found between not just the teaching of Orthodoxy and Evangelicals generally but how the teaching is put to work in the real world. I am a Baptist and I would be a Reformed Baptist, on the question of salvation, to lay down a theological marker.
I am not trying to win or even make an argument here, I am not interested in this post who better reflects the teaching in the Bible or the wishes of Christ, instead I want to lay out how the differences in the teachings of the two churches play out in the lives of people practicing the two faiths. I want to illuminate what motivates the conversions that move people from Orthodoxy to Evangelicalism and what often motivates the reverse. I intend to take a more bottom-up look at what happens here so instead of starting with theology and then working down to the people I am going to start with the people and work my way up to some insights on the theology.
Let’s get started with part of a testimony of a girl that went from Orthodoxy to Evangelicalism.
“My first doubt about my faith is when we went to sacrifice a chicken to the Lord at the local Orthodox church. We had sinned and the Priest said we needed to sacrifice a chicken to Lord to atone for it. So my parents brought the chicken and while we prayed the Priest slaughtered the chicken and threw half in a basket before the altar and then took the other half for himself. Before I could control myself, I said aloud, “That is for God, why are you taking it?” My parents were mortified but the Priest just smiled at me and said, “Christ also takes care of his Priests.”
Now any, even nominally educated, Orthodox believer will quickly tell you the above story is a mess. Orthodox theology does not need chickens, no one atones for sin with the blood of animals. Some even question whether the above incident could have even happened. No one in Georgia would bat an eye at it however, they all know it happens. I am here to tell you though that Orthodox theology does not allow the Priest to act the way he did and it is true even if the people believed the chicken was sacrificed for their sins it was only because they were taught incorrect Orthodox theology.
Even Priests in Georgia, educated ones used to foreigners, will tell you what we see here is simple folk practice. Country priests have to find various ways to supplement their income to survive and people build up stories about once simple rituals to give them greater importance and so we get bad theology. But they are also quick to assure you that it is alright and the people’s faith in the Church is justified and their salvation is secure. Why is that? Well, one more story.
My sister in law, Nino, is out on a camping trip with her girlfriend and some male cousins and friends. They are feasting on fish the boys have caught in the stream and the next day they are going to a church up in the hill country called Tetri Giorgi (White/Silver George) the church is ancient and very holy. It is said the earth all around the church is black from the tens of thousands of cattle sacrificed there over the centuries. One of the boys noticed a gold chain around her neck and said, “You better hide that or even bury it out here.” Shocked Nino responded, “No, way. Why would I do such a thing?”
The boys explained that Saint George and other Saints located at the church are very hungry for sacrifice and if they “see” the gold they will demand it from her and if she does not give it they may even curse her causing her death. Nino, then explained that the church they are going to is simply a piece of cultural heritage to her and there are no saints who do anything like they say, and that her faith is in Jesus Christ regardless and Jesus doesn’t really need nor wants her necklace.
The boys then launched into long stories about how magical the church was, how the Saints can mess with the Earth’s magnetic field and essentially tell horrifying ghosts stories with gruesome ends for those that tried to defy the Saints of the church of Tetri Giorgi. When Nino and her friend still weren’t moved and tried to explain that even according to normal Orthodox teaching what they were saying about the church was wrong. The boys were so angry the girls were frightened and asked to go home and one the cousins drove them away from the camping trip.
What to make of these two stories, stories used often when explaining to others why the people that experienced them became Baptist instead of Orthodox? Well, normally the conversation derails on high theological grounds and defenses based on the fact that the bad actors in this story were not acting as true Orthodox and who seem ignorant of basic Orthodox teaching.
I think this misses the point. The Orthodox are basically unchallenged in Georgia. They have government backing and have been free of Communist oppression for more than a generation. If the Orthodox Church in Georgia wanted to stop these practices, they certainly could. A priest or monk coming out of the church of the Tetri Giorgi and telling everyone with a cow in tow that there was no reason to kill the cow and that it would bring them no advantage would swiftly put an end to the practice. They chose not to end it. Why?
Church Authority in Salvation
The reason these practices horrify Baptists and usually get rueful shrugs from Orthodox Priests is their different views of the role of the Church in salvation. For the Orthodox, the membership in the right church brings a person to salvation. The hard work of the priest and the church hierarchy is to bring their flock into salvation the flock does not have to do much more than belong and stay members in good standing with the church to make it into heaven.
Imagine for a moment that you are a priest and strongly believe that people need salvation and that salvation is on offer in the Orthodox Church. You head out to a village or small town and start caring for the flock. As you teach standard Orthodox theology you find that many people are surprised by what you are teaching and they start questioning many of their folk’s beliefs. As you try and reassure them that their folk beliefs are wrong they begin to worry about their dead grandparents and other relatives and get upset. The flock is troubled and there is dissension in the flock with many accusing you the Priest of teaching bad or “new doctrine”. You have a big mess on your hands, you are barely paid anything, you depend on donations from the flock who are upset and angry, other Priests around rebuke you for rocking the boat, and in general your life becomes very unpleasant. What would you do?
Well, I think we can forgive a Priest for asking, “Do the people really need to know any of these things?” They are in the right church, it is your job to secure their salvation by blessing a few folk practices you make a lot of people happy and you will give them correct sacraments and really isn’t that the most important thing?
People yearn for the supernatural and the unexplained, they desire meaning in their lives and folk practices, superstitions, legends, and Saints give them something to get them through hard days and for the Priests there really is no harm done since the people are in the right church. They obey their “Fathers” and they get the correct and very powerful sacraments and that is simply enough for salvation. I should say here too that the Priests I knew of or knew personally did not, for the most part, hide their deeper theological truths from their people but they took a very God-focused approach to sharing theology. If God moved someone to really ask questions and wanted to read books the Priest would help them do those things and teach them, because they figured they really wanted to know. They were always careful to leave some wiggle room for the customs and practices of the local people however, no matter how weird. As long as the practice did not detract from the authority of the Priest or the church he served.
There is a movie that gets at this as well. It is called Leviathan. A 2014 film from Russia. In the movie a man is losing his lands to a corrupt official but the innocent man knows a lawyer so he fights back to keep his land. This land stealing has been normal for a while in the region and the corrupt official Vadim is giving some of the land to the Church and using some of his wealth to build up the church in the area. There is Bishop in the movie and he is pretty good. I could not find the scene I wanted on YouTube but when Vadim thinks he is about to be undone by his victim’s lawyer he goes to the Bishop for advice. The scene starts at the 1:11-minute mark in the movie and Vadim confesses he is feeling uneasy about his criminal behavior, he is not sure if he will succeed. The Bishop carefully keeps himself from hearing any details of crimes and instead checks in on the man’s faith. He asks if he is going to the mass and talking with his confessor and then spiritualizes the conflict for him. The Bishop says that the realms of the two men are different, Vadim is in the secular realm and must use his strength to solve his conflicts. Vadim is doing God’s work, yes? Then act like a man and don’t let the Enemy win over him. The Bishop rebukes him for being a child and having doubts and then blesses him and sends Vadim off. Sure enough, the lecture works and Vadim solves all his problems with some carefully applied violence and fear and soon all his enemies have fled, committed suicide or are in jail.
Again this is not what the great moral theology of the Orthodox theology would teach. What is shows how easy the Orthodox fall into the trap separating what happens inside and outside the church. In the Secular world, you do what you must to accomplish your goals and the “greater good” when you are in the world of the church you obey the church authority and trust in them for your salvation.
Again the point here is to not show how the Orthodox Church “really” works I am discussing flaws in the system thate convince people to leave the Church for another denomination or faith.
A Nominal Orthodox confesses her faith in Christ.
So what about the Baptists?
While I have been discussing cracks in the Orthodox practice, it has to be said that the system overall is quite popular. Things like this don’t last if they are not popular and do not appeal to a side of our human nature. Since this post is about conversion, I thought I would line up how Baptist practice, and Protestant more generally, match up against these fault lines.
The first is the practice that matters here is the emphasis on Bible reading. It is often alleged that the Orthodox don’t read the Bible because they are not allowed too. That was not what I experienced working and living with Orthodox for 14 years. There is rarely, if ever, any command not to read the Bible by any Orthodox authority. Instead nearly all Orthodox believe, especially those in Orthodox countries where I have direct experience, the Bible is challenging and confusing. Reading the Bible directly is a holy exercise that requires regular access to a Priest and a lot of time. It is troublesome to read the Bible so it is better to read the readily available and curated books that Priest have put together where you read Bible verses and/or chapters with explanation in one book. Passages that are too troublesome are just left out.
This usually meant that the normal Orthodox member you ran into wasn’t just ignorant of the Bible, most people everywhere are Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox or other notwithstanding, they were shocked to learn what was in the Bible. In other words, Orthodox were often truly ignorant of the Bible but confident they were not. Reading the Bible, especially passages they didn’t know existed, would shock many Orthodox and undermine their trust in the church. I would say that of all the Georgians and others who sat down and read the Bible with me over the course time 80% of them became Baptist. Now, getting them to read the Bible with you for a period of time was very difficult but if they did they were very likely to convert.
This was not because the Bible “disproves” Orthodoxy; it was because they had been told for their whole lives that the Bible was confusing and that the Church would take care of the salvation. Reading the Bible, they did not find it very confusing and the Bible was pretty clear about having faith, yourself, in Christ to be saved. The church hierarchy didn’t seem to factor into this according to the Bible.
The second aspect of the Baptist practice that attracted people away from the Orthodox Church was fusing their normal secular lives with their faith. As a missionary, the hardest lift for me in teaching and preaching was not convincing people that Jesus loved them and they needed a personal faith Christ but that faith in Christ meant their “public” life was to match up with the “church” life. When people realized that Christ could affect their whole life, through a relationship with Him, the rituals of the Orthodox Church would feel empty or even pointless. Doing rituals to get rid of sin as you went pales in comparison to Jesus Christ who forgives all sin, once and for all so that we can love Him and love others more freely. This strikes many Orthodox as a life of greater integrity and fulfillment than one of ritual obedience to the Church. Once you believe that you are in a relationship with Christ and his Holy Spirit dwells within you the idea that Saints of any kind or Holy Water, Blessed Crosses, Holy Candles or any other aid or intercessor is necessary loses their appeal. Instead, converts felt these things distracted from Christ instead of drawing Christ closer to them. If Christ loved them instead of being angry with them, why do you need someone that Christ “really” loved, like a Saint, intercede for you?
This post is more than long enough. I will write a part II that will be up early next week where I will write an “Ode to Orthodoxy” about how the practical aspects of Baptist practice will lead people to the beauty and ancient wonder and wisdom of the Orthodox Church.
Published in Religion & Philosophy
Quantum physics is easier.
This reminds my of a joke I heard a few years ago about Texas Christians. Some Texans like to make fun of graduates from Texas A & M (the Aggies), thinking that Aggies aren’t as smart as graduates from other universities. So, the joke goes like this.
Smart Christian: What is your favorite holiday?
1st Aggie-Christian: My favorite holiday is Easter. On Easter there are lots of fireworks and lots of picnics, hot dogs and potato salad.
Smart Christian: You stupid Aggie. That’s not Easter you are talking about. That’s the 4th of July. Don’t mix them up!
2nd Aggie-Christian: My favorite holiday is Easter. On Easter there is lots of turkey and stuffing and gravy and lots of pumpkin pie.
Smart Christian: You stupid Aggie. That’s not Easter either. That’s Thanksgiving. Two different holidays.
2nd Aggie-Christian: Okay. What’s your favorite holiday?
Smart Christian: Glad you asked. My favorite holiday is Easter. Jesus dies by crucifixion, is buried and placed in a tomb and on the 3rd day the stone of the tomb is rolled away and Jesus comes out of the tomb and if he sees his shadow, he goes back in the tomb and there are 6 more weeks of winter.
I think the issues being discussed here are not entirely unique to Christianity. The Islamic community is having similar issues.
In this video, an ex-Muslims elaborates on why he is walking away from the faith he grew up with.
An Appeal to Think
I can see how reading about the role of women would make one wonder if these words really were God’s words. And then the question becomes: How do we know that these words are from God rather than simply the words of man? How do we know?
At the 2 minute mark, this ex-Muslim talks about the role of religious indoctrination and bias.
It is helpful to do a compare and contrast of the various world religions.
The five major world religions.
I have heard from others about Georgia being weird. When I dig into what they mean it is usually about how the last KGB appointees still run the church and how they have turned the church hierarchy into an almost exclusively family affair. It is a small place though and that smallness affect things. As to being afraid of make generalization I spoke about things I found common to Romania, Ukraine, Russia and Georgia, US Orthodox were mostly different. Four primarily Orthodox countries means it is hard to make the case that they are all just marginal Orthodox.
I would also say that all the example of I gave was how the members of the Orthodox church were failing to live up to Orthodox teaching, morals, ethics and best practices. I was specifically not implying that the examples I gave were a correct out working of true Orthodox teaching.
You are really going to like my second essay!
This is true as far as it goes. Romania was somewhat flooded I suppose but Baptist pre-date Communism in all the former Soviet Union and Eastern block and “flooding” is unfortunately not the right term for what happened. There is also not a lot effort at re-catechizing their own people either. There are some efforts at doing so but for the most part the efforts at re-catechizing are more nationalistic rather than theological. I think the Orthodox in many parts of the world sell their own rich Theological heritage short and don’t make sue of it like they should.
For instance in Georgia younger Priests use social media to teach the Scriptures and Orthodox theology and many of the kids in Baptist Youth Groups loved them because they could get Scriptural teaching from a Georgian source and they loved it. Many other younger Georgians also enjoyed these channels. The Georgian church hierarchy didn’t like any of them and they were often shut down.
The prevailing wisdom of many Orthodox is that all these issues have been settled for centuries and there is no need to teach about them again or especially to debate them! They instead focus on getting people back into the ceremonial life of the Church that stirs their nationalism and sense of self. Priest figure the awareness of doctrine and theology will come over time after that.
I think they should lead with teaching doctrine and theology.
Boy this is true. But I have talked with personally and a bunch of Orthodox over seas, low four digits if you include the leaders I trained, not once did anyone not mention the wrath of Jesus as a justification for Icons. I thought this was strange since in the reading I did before going overseas no Orthodox writer ever mentioned the “wrath of Jesus” as a reason for the veneration of Icons.
Tell you a story. At an evangelistic summer camp on the Black Sea I was running we had small group meetings at night. There was an Orthodox Priest near one of these meetings drinking with his friends and getting drunk. One of buddies came in the room and said basically, “I can’t believe it but Baptist are meeting next door and some of them are American.”
The Priest shot up in a rage and with some buddies made a big stink about our meeting. The Priest was angry. I rushed over with some of my friends to diffuse the situation and we did mainly because everyone knew the Priest was drunk and the Americans were guests.
The next day the Priest was sober and wanted to talk with me along with a higher ranking Priest that spoke English. They were both really nice guys. We had a long talk and we got into theology and the ethics of evangelizing Georgians, the nature of Salvation that kind of thing. In the discussion they brought up Icons and our need for the Saints to mollify the wrath of Jesus. Only after I destroyed that did the higher ranking Priest switch to the argument from Incarnation and how Icons are a continuing proof of salvation and grace that Jesus initiated through his incarnation.
That was the only time over seas I encountered that argument. Which I always found weird. Why that is not more popularly taught or more widely known I cannot say. But I will say that almost no rank file Orthodox know about they think Jesus is very angry with them.
The first printing press did not come to Georgia until the early 18th century while printing had been coming in the West for over 200 years!
The only Orthodox that I have seen who make changing that a priority are American Orthodox. Reading is very encouraged but readings written by Orthodox Priest I have not seen an evidence that a main Orthodox church has prioritized Bible reading outside of America and perhaps Europe. But there could be examples of it.
True. This the taking of the Eucharist I have seen become a priority in many Orthodox countries. Clergy push for it, plead for it and exhort people about it. Baptist are even affected by this push.
This is how I started out in life. I thought by being a Republican I should be some form of Evangelical and have at least a tenuous connection to the church. Then I got saved.
This is a structural weakness of ours. We can’t really change it without transforming the way we do church completely. But we, Protestants, should work harder to minimize this weakness and not ignore like we do too often.
I am interested in your thoughts here. It seems to me that the Orthodox plan was to be entangled with the Government. They had their own version of separation of church and state and thousands of examples of Orthodox heroes calling out immorality in their own governments but the fact that the Church and State were kind of married and in an intimate relationship seems to be a strong aspect of Orthodox thinking and practice. Do you disagree? I am anxious to hear.
Has Hank Hanegraaff put his salvation in question by converting from Evangelical Christianity to Orthodox Christianity?
That really is the key question, isn’t it? Isn’t the main reason why someone would choose Christianity over Islam, Protestantism over Catholicism because one believes that one faith provides a path to heaven while the other does not?
Or is there some other principle in play? Are Evangelical Christianity and Orthodox Christianity and also Catholic Christianity all viable paths towards salvation and “getting into heaven?” If so, then choosing among these branches of Christianity is similar to a choice between a Toyota and a Ford and Mercedes, right?
Do these theological debates really matter?
Can we just as easily argue that all enjoy salvation?
Sorry, but I could not get past the chicken sacrifice. You should know that this is not any part of Orthodoxy. It is just a willful priest taking advantage of ignorant parishioners. The rest of your article might be better, but I draw the line at this.
No, to the last question. It’s actually much easier to argue that all enjoy salvation.
On the first question: I don’t think that I’ve ever heard of Hank Hanegraaff, so I cannot comment on his salvation except to say: (1) if he previously self-identified as an Evangelical Christian, then he may or may not be saved, and (2) if he now self-identifies as an Orthodox Christian, then he may or may not be saved.
I wouldn’t conceptualize the main question as “getting into heaven,” though this is an important consequence of true faith. The main question is being reconciled with God. I think that this is possible for individuals in Catholic, Orthodox, and Evangelical churches. It is not automatic, as church membership is not the deciding factor.
So, how can one truly know whether they really have salvation or have merely been deceived by a church into thinking they have been saved? It seems like there is a game of hide the ball going on. Well, we can’t really say whether or not Joe has been saved even though he attends a “good” church and is faithful to his wife and blah, blah, blah.
Only God knows? That’s not much of a clarification. On that basis, anyone can claim salvation and no one would be able to say otherwise.
How do you fact check a pastor or a church organization on issues of heaven and hell? Sure, you can consult the Bible. But the Bible won’t tell you whether your Aunt Erma made it into heaven or not. You can make some guesses.
That is called Universalism. Some branches of Christianity believe in it.
I suspect there may be a lost bit of papyrus yet to be discovered completing Matthew 18:20:
“For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” – and there will be an argument
Ah polls. Or should I say traps?
I know number 1 is wrong because Original Sin and the depravity of Man is the Christian doctrine best supported by pragmatic evidence. But then, God saw that His creation was GOOD. So what does any answer really mean about the respondent’s view?
Number two has been bothering Christians since at least Dante–he created a pleasant place for virtuous pagans. How can God be All-Loving and condemn eternally those who never heard of Him? And didn’t Christ say “Father, Forgive them for they know not…”? So again, who knows what aspect any respondent is thinking of when answering the poll.
Three is just plain wrong–if you are a Trinitarian. Jesus (or at least the Second Person) was not created by God. But then, even a Trinitarian know Jesus was a human being. God created human beings. So again, the statement with demand for agreement or denial is a trap.
But yeah, in every Church this stuff is a mess. But isn’t that half the fun?
Not likely.
Maybe for some of those someones. Many of us choose one rather than another because we think its theology is more correct. That’s what every Protestantism-to-Catholicism convert I ever heard of was consciously thinking (although I sometimes detected other motives). Same with every reverse convert I’ve ever heard of, which is precisely why many of them were also thinking they’d found in Christ alone by faith alone the true way into Heaven.
Yes, of course. There is foremost the question of authority–Magisterium and Pope and Creeds and Bible, or just the Creeds and Bible, or just the Bible? There are literally thousands of other theological issues, and each is at least potentially another reason to select the church that gets it right.
Same way one truly knows anything–by logic and evidence. My homeboy James is more than 50% (and a bit less 100%) right:
You can’t even prove that you’re not in the Matrix. “So, how can one truly know whether they really have” clothes on or whether electrons exist? The same way we can know who has salvation–by logic and evidence–but probably, as usual, with good probability rather than certainty.
I don’t follow. Who’s playing a game?
An extremely rare answer in Christian theology. I think only a few strains of Calvinism give that answer.
We knew my grandmother’s faith by her works. All the logic and evidence say she’s seen my grandfather, my sister, and the Messiah Himself in Heaven by now. And she got to meet Boethius before I did. Lucky! The logic and evidence doesn’t work so well with my father’s Cousin So-and-so because I just don’t have enough evidence to go on; I knew nothing of his soul because I knew nothing of his life.
Well you didn’t see this paragraph which I wrote following that story…
Now any, even nominally educated, Orthodox believer will quickly tell you the above story is a mess. Orthodox theology does not need chickens, no one atones for sin with the blood of animals. Some even question whether the above incident could have even happened. No one in Georgia would bat an eye at it however, they all know it happens. I am here to tell you though that Orthodox theology does not allow the Priest to act the way he did and it is true even if the people believed the chicken was sacrificed for their sins it was only because they were taught incorrect Orthodox theology.
Which kind of cover your concerns. Also the story was real and my article focuses on how Orthodox faith is actually practiced and experienced instead of how it exists in theory, to show why people move from from being Orthodox to being Baptist.
No, I do not think so. Orthodoxy practiced truly and following their main teaching carefully gets one to a saving faith in Jesus I believe. The few truly faithful and practicing Orthodox I meant I never tried to evangelize because as far as I could there was no need too. The reason I was a missionary in Georgia was the fact that millions of people lived there and practically no one had a saving faith in Jesus Christ or even had a inkling they needed any. The Orthodox in that country, in particular, did not seem concerned about that for the reasons I outlined above. As far as I can tell I have meant many people that were fully saved and fully Orthodox.
I don’t think so….
For me it was making sense of my experiences. I first listened to Christian radio at my work place. I listened to a dcTalk song called Consume Me that ate away at my soul and made me feel empty inside. The first time this happened I nearly lost my legs and fell to the ground the only reason I did not fall. Kim Hill had a song out to Dedicated to the Call that just made me feel as if my life was empty and without purpose. I was a hollowed out man.
I soon after this happened I went to a dcTalk concert to find some answers and end the pain I was in. I had no idea what to suspect. I think about half way through the concert they stopped singing their songs and did a worship set. During this worship time I just called out to God to make me part of the love all around me. I had a moment of intense feeling of electricity of power coursing through me and I felt like I was being “re-written”. I was a in a daze for a while but when I came to my senses I participated in the rest of the concert with wild abandoned and when Toby Mac gave the gospel at the end of the show I realized I had been saved.
After that I tired to make sense of events I went to a church I had thought too extreme to attend before my experience I bought my first Bible an NIV study bible and I started to try and make sense of it all. The church I went to was non-denominational and so did not guide me too much but gave me a lot of things to read.
Continuing from comment 51:
I found that I loved church now, loved worship and worship music, and I loved to hear preaching I still did not like reading the Bible. So at first the Bible was not part of my study as a Christian I read theology and Christian history and listened to a LOT of sermons but could not read the Bible. The Bible really bored me. When I read it I would literally star to tear up from the strain and I would grow more and more tired until I fell asleep or gave up reading the Bible.
After being a Christian for six months I started to feel very guilty about not reading the Bible since everyone told me I should be doing that and I started to try an force myself to read the thing everyday no matter how bad it got. I did this for six weeks in total frustration and could not understand how anyone ever read the Bible because it was such a mess. Finally instead of praying for help in reading the Scriptures I prayed fervently for some sign from God about what I was supposed to do since I hated reading the Bible? What did it mean? I pleaded for the joy that people felt in reading the Word that I never experienced.
That day I was reading as normal bored and tired and about to give up when I felt an urge to push a little bit further and so I looked down where I had stopped and read Romans 8:28 and the scripture came alive. My heart burst with joy and energy and the Bible lived for me in a way it never had before. For almost a year afterward I could read almost nothing but the Bible.
For me it was not about getting into heaven but making sense of my encounters with God. Because of my experiences I tended to be draw to teaching about personal relationship with my Savior and I prioritized Bible reading. As I discovered what Catholics and Orthodox and others taught they seemed to adding unnecessary layers to the most important things we have as Christian and I knew their way was not mine.
For me making sense of God and His relationship to all of us is the main thing. Heaven is the destination, in a way, but God and our relationship to him is the goal.
Christianity, orthodox Christianity, is a viable way to a relationship with God that leads us to eternal life and forgiveness of sins. This is valuable. The theological debates within Christianity have different levels of importance. For instance some disagreements about practices, worship and emphasis in our theology are important people God’s people are actually attracted to different kinds of answers to these questions. For instance people are truly moved by and attracted too completely different kinds of worship. Having a variety of worship styles actually serves the body of Christ and makes His Church stronger. When people think there is one Biblicaly sound worship style for all people, they are wrong.
In theology we can often argue emphasis instead of the substance of the theology. Again here people are naturally attracted to emphasizing different parts of mostly compatible theology. We need different churches to emphasize different things to better represent Christ. It is very hard for a single denomination and impossible for a single Church to emphasize everything in the Bible exactly the way it should be emphasized. God is really big and we need all us to represent him in his complete glory.
Then there are stronger disagreements. That speak to the Character of Christ and the nature of salvation that are really big and serious disagreements. Here all churches and members of every denomination can deviate from the truth in terrible and even evil ways. When someone does this they need to be opposed and challenged and people under the authority of such error should be told about the error and asked to repent. These problems and errors change over time, vary between culture and return with new generations that have forgotten old victories, battles and tragedy.
I am Baptist because I find in that tradition the fewest inbuilt errors, though we have some, and the most freedom to preach and practice the Truth of the Bible for all the world to see. The trade offs I make for being Baptist are the fewest and easiest for me to deal with. Other people would not find the trade offs that I find easy to deal with, easy at all, they would find them unbearable. Other denominations beckon them and I bless them in their work and fervently hope they Glorify Christ in ways that I can’t.
Hide the ball? I don’t think so. Let us look at Romans 10: 9-10
9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Now there are only two beings in the Universe that can truly know what I believe in my heart. Me and God. No one else can know with complete accuracy what is in my heart. What my true beliefs are. Still we are not without guidance in looking for signs of salvation in others but we can never know someone’s truest beliefs as well as they can. Again from Romans 12 1-2
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
So we look for a willingness in someone to put their life to the work of God in service or other ways knowing that someone that desires to worship God will want to sacrifice for him. Second look for the pursue to hunger for transformation of their mind and practice to conform with the teachings of Christ. A thirst to know the Word and live by that Word is always a good sign of salvation. But many begin here and seem genuine but all way. So we look for further signs of life.
Romans 12: 6-8
6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.
We have gifts given to us by the Spirit for benefit of those around us. These gifts bless the body, encourage people to glorify Jesus and draw others closer to faith in Jesus. Without someone using their gifts for the benefit of others it is hard to tell if they are really saved or not. And with gifts you can actually see them in operation.
To continue from comment 54:
The gifts by themselves are not enough either. God has given gifts to unworthy or unsaved men and women before to serve his purpose and many that have drawn others to Christ were not themselves saved. So, we have further signs that we can look for. Again from Romans 12:
9 Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. 10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. 11 Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord. 12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. 13 Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality.
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. 17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. 18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
These “marks of being a Christian” are pretty self explanatory. But if I see that a purpose is willing to make sacrifices in his life for the Lord, they show a thirst for the things of God and desire to test and discover what God would have them do. I see the person gifts in operation bring out Godly character in others and inspiring people to follow Christ more fully or drawing others to the faith and then I see the above marks and signs of maturity in their life I think I know they are believers. Even if they sin, stumble and fall. I might know with complete certainty what is in another man’s heart but I can see the signs in their Life of who is at work in them. I don’t the “ball” or the light is hidden in a Christian’s life unless we hide it ourselves.
I have found Matthew 25:31-46 interesting when it comes to salvation and eternal life, especially those words I have placed in bold letters.
Jesus is saying that one’s knowledge of Jesus is irrelevant and what is relevant is how one treats “the least of these.” This seems to open up salvation to people who lived good lives even if they didn’t accept Jesus as lord and savior. I realize that there are other verses in the New Testament that say otherwise.
No; there are just other verses that seem to when we read them hastily. For that matter, we oughtn’t to read this one hastily either.
Just to clarify, I read it carefully, not hastily.
This video is a bit off topic. But it features an ex-Jehovah’s Witness discussing why he continues to make videos discussing what he sees as the flaws in JW thinking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQN1RokO9yw
Why Don’t Former Jehovah’s Witnesses Just Move On With Their Lives?
Interesting perspective, I think.
At the 8 minute mark in the video, the narrator discusses JW’s views on blood transfusions, which the narrator says is literally killing people.
That’s good.
Not necessarily good enough.
I think we’re all reading it too hastily if we think it simply must be a statement about who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell. The context is about ecclesiology and eschatology–not soteriology, not justification and sanctification, not even about the death and resurrection of the Messiah.
Even the ecclesiology is not only about the end of history, but about the end of the Second Temple and the loss of the land of Palestine.
So why even bring it up? It was a real stumbling block to me as I am sure it would be to others. It contributes no real theological or practical insight about the Orthodox Church. FYI, I was raised Presbyterian but when I decided to marry, I found I was not baptised. The Presbyterian minister who had been a friend of the family as long as I could remember would not baptise me. I am still not sure why. Thus I chose to become Orthodox and have long since imersed myself in it. i have no illusions about the failings of those who are clergy and hierarchs, but I can find nothing useful in the alternatives.