Recommended by Ricochet Members Created with Sketch. Just How Obstinate is Pope Francis?

 

Seems like a silly question, doesn’t it? I mean to a greater or lesser degree we have all displayed obstinance about certain ideas or positions we’ve held even as others have convincingly explained how it is we have been wrong (I’m lookin’ at you, Bill Kristol). So, what’s the big deal if Pope Francis has displayed very apparent obstinate behavior? Well, the obstinance is one of the lynchpin factors to determine whether a member of the clergy, in this case, the current pontiff, may be a heretic for the positions he’s articulated that run counter to both doctrine and dogma and for his continued promotion of known sexual predators to positions of prominence in the Roman Curia.

A few days ago, 19 Catholic scholars issued an indictment of heresy upon Pope Francis and cited in detail what his heretical infractions were. As of this morning, several others have added their names to the document bringing the total to 61. Of course, defenders of the pontiff have criticized the issuing of the indictment and dismissing the authors even as they avoid criticizing or dissembling the actual examples of heresy and heretical behavior cited. From Life Site News:

One of the heresies the authors accuse Pope Francis of committing is expressed in the following proposition: “A Christian believer can have full knowledge of a divine law and voluntarily choose to break it in a serious matter, but not be in a state of mortal sin as a result of this action.” Many of these heretical statements touch on questions of marriage and the family and are to be found in Amoris Laetitia, but there is also a new claim made by Pope Francis in 2019 – namely, that the “diversity of religions” is “willed by God” – that is listed in the open letter.

It seems to me that the pope has often displayed an intractable, one might even say, obstinate attitude to his strident support and praise for homosexual couples, clerics who push a strident homosexual agenda contrary to Catholic teaching, praise for a well-known Italian abortionist, and has obstinately refused to correct or even clarify his quite troublesome and ambiguous pronouncements and positions. His apparent refusal to stop promoting known members of the clergy who have been well known and reported as sexual predators, even slandering those who have called attention to this continued promotion lends credence to the charges laid out in the latest document.

As they have done with such probing and insightful erudition in the past. Dr. Taylor Marshall and Timothy Gordon address the merits and even some of the issues they have with this latest open dissension of the current pontificate (to note — Taylor Marshall refers to TnT videos which is the acronym for Taylor and Tim):

The scholars who issued the indictment of the pope have implored the episcopacy to take the matter further presumably in hopes of adding their support and condemnation of the pope’s apparent heresies:

The authors respectfully request the bishops of the Church to investigate the accusations contained in the letter, so that if they judge them to be well founded, they may free the Church from her present distress, in accordance with the hallowed adage, Salus animarum prima lex (‘the salvation of souls is the highest law’). They can do this by admonishing Pope Francis to reject these heresies, and if he should persistently refuse, by declaring that he has freely deprived himself of the papacy.

Unfortunately, that’s where the matter gets a bit thorny since there doesn’t seem to be a mechanism, short of divine intervention, to replace a pope once enthroned in the chair of Peter, so perhaps the hope would be that if Francis is so discredited that he would find his authority eroded and be unable to exert any measurable influence in his agenda for the Church. I think, given the makeup of the Vatican hierarchy, this would be very wishful thinking indeed. Bergoglio, since becoming pope, has also hand-picked and elevated those in his camp to the college of Cardinals, who would be responsible for electing his successor.

Unless something radically changes, the next pope will likely be in sympathy for Bergoglio’s pontifical agenda and his many problematic pronouncements. Two other factors do have the potential of making the accusations about Pope Francis more challenging for the current Vatican hierarchy, specifically if lay Catholics, particularly in America, continue to withhold funds from supporting the episcopacy and it must be said its allegiances with agencies that support many Leftist causes, and the ratcheting up federal RICO investigations that have the potential of undermining the fiscal stability of the Church when fines are meted out and settlements are reached.

It’s only going to get uglier and more contentious going forward.

There are 24 comments.

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  1. Kevin Schulte Member

    Did the Pope adhere to all the heretical positions before being elevated ? If so, then the ugly proceeds him. For the ugly elevated him.

    • #1
    • May 3, 2019, at 12:00 PM PDT
    • 8 likes
  2. Brian Watt Member
    Brian WattJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Kevin Schulte (View Comment):
    Did the Pope adhere to all the heretical positions before being elevated ? If so, then the ugly proceeds him. For the ugly elevated him.

    Difficult to say whether he adhered to “all the heretical positions”. Since, becoming pope he is obviously more in the spotlight, more quoted, and uses the pontifical ‘bully’ pulpit to issue several pronouncements – much more so than in his previous role. His history in Argentina is troublesome. For some reason he hasn’t returned to Argentina since becoming pontiff. The way he was elected pope is also fraught with controversy since the St. Gallen Mafia apparently actively campaigned for him which was in violation of Canon law.

    • #2
    • May 3, 2019, at 12:39 PM PDT
    • 4 likes
  3. Stad Coolidge

    I love the first picture in your post!

    • #3
    • May 3, 2019, at 1:00 PM PDT
    • 7 likes
  4. DonG (2+2=5. Say it!) Coolidge

    Great photoshop work.

    • #4
    • May 3, 2019, at 1:02 PM PDT
    • 2 likes
  5. Brian Watt Member
    Brian WattJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Stad (View Comment):
    I love the first picture in your post!

    Thanks! It’s also getting some retweets on Twitter.

    • #5
    • May 3, 2019, at 1:02 PM PDT
    • 1 like
  6. Saint Augustine Member

    Brian Watt: Unfortunately, that’s where the matter gets a bit thorny since there doesn’t seem to be a mechanism, short of divine intervention, to replace a pope once enthroned in the chair of Peter, so perhaps the hope would be that if Francis is so discredited that he would find his authority eroded and be unable to exert any measurable influence in his agenda for the Church.

    Perhaps that is the contingency plan. The hope and prayer would be for divine intervention, right?

    • #6
    • May 3, 2019, at 4:47 PM PDT
    • 1 like
  7. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph StankoJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Brian Watt:Bergoglio, since becoming pope, has also hand-picked and elevated those in his camp to the college of Cardinals, who would be responsible for electing his successor.

    Unless something radically changes, the next pope will likely be in sympathy for Bergoglio’s pontifical agenda and his many problematic pronouncements.

    Perhaps, though since the electors at the last Conclave were nearly all appointed by Popes John Paul II and Benedict, one could have made the same prediction then — and yet we got Francis instead. There’s a saying in Rome that “a fat pope follows a thin one.”

    • #7
    • May 3, 2019, at 5:33 PM PDT
    • 2 likes
  8. Doug Watt Moderator

    What we are witnessing is the last desperate attempt of those that used Vatican II as a license to mold the Church in their own image, and they believe their work is not complete, and it isn’t. They are literally dying of old age and their greatest fears are something they have said will not be heard, and something they have written will not be read.

    I’m partial to the Dominicans, and the greatest Dominican, St. Thomas Aquinas. He was called the Dumb Ox by his fellow students, but it will be his works that survive, not the works of those that bend to the whims of popular culture. A great deal of damage has been done, but prayer, patience, and vigilance will have to sustain Catholics in this time of turmoil.

    In 1245 Thomas was sent to study at the Faculty of the Arts at the University of Paris, where he most likely met Dominican scholar Albertus Magnus, then the holder of the Chair of Theology at the College of St. James in Paris. When Albertus was sent by his superiors to teach at the new studium generale at Cologne in 1248, Thomas followed him, declining Pope Innocent IV’s offer to appoint him abbot of Monte Cassino as a Dominican. Albertus then appointed the reluctant Thomas magister studentium. Because Thomas was quiet and didn’t speak much, some of his fellow students thought he was slow. But Albertus prophetically exclaimed: “You call him the dumb ox, but in his teaching he will one day produce such a bellowing that it will be heard throughout the world.”

    • #8
    • May 4, 2019, at 6:14 AM PDT
    • 8 likes
  9. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph StankoJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Doug Watt (View Comment):
    They are literally dying of old age and their greatest fears are something they have said will not be heard, and something they have written will not be read.

    St. Thomas Aquinas also offers a revealing contrast in humility:

    In 1273 Thomas was seen by the sacristan Domenic of Caserta to be crying and levitating in prayer before an icon of the crucified Christ at the Dominican convent of Naples, in the Chapel of Saint Nicholas.

    During this prayer, Christ is said to have told him, “You have written well of me, Thomas. What reward would you have for your labor?”

    Thomas replied, “Nothing but you, Lord.”

    Following this exchange, something happened but Thomas never wrote or spoke of it. He abandoned his routine and, when begged to return to work, replied, “I cannot, because all that I have written seems like straw to me.”

    • #9
    • May 4, 2019, at 1:09 PM PDT
    • 4 likes
  10. Scott Wilmot Member

    Pope Francis is know for the “weaponized ambiguity” – a feature, not a bug – of his papacy. And to compound this is his obstinate silence when one criticizes him or seeks clarification. And it is also unfortunate that the Catholic hierarchy (outside of a few – Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò, Bishop Athanasisus Schneider and Gerhard Cardinal Muller come to mind) has adopted this maddening silence as well. The silence of both Pope and hierarchy compounds the problem.

    The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter’s successor, “is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful.” “For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered.”(CCC 882). Yet this pope, rather than uniting is dividing the faithful – he is living up to the comment he made that he may go down as the one who split the Church.

    So what can be done? Remain Catholic. Go to Confession. Pray. Don’t waver in your faith. Jesus Christ remains Head of the Church.

    But as Phil Lawler writes, did asking the wrong question give our spineless bishops an out?:

    Faithful Catholics, crying out for pastoral help, wonder what sort of dramatic action we could take, to wake our shepherds from their slumber. The frustration is mounting steadily, as the epidemic of confusion has spread throughout the Church. It will continue mounting, as the confusion continues to spread, until bishops speak out.

    But what is it that we want bishops to say? That the Pope is a heretic? I, for one, would be content if bishops made it clear that the Church’s teaching has not changed, will not change, cannot change on fundamental questions such as the inviolability of the marriage bond and sanctity of the Eucharist. I fear that this letter, by asking bishops to do too much, might have the unhappy result of giving them an excuse for their failure to do the minimum, in terms of fulfilling their teaching office.

    • #10
    • May 5, 2019, at 9:01 AM PDT
    • 2 likes
  11. James Gawron Thatcher
    James GawronJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Brian Watt: One of the heresies the authors accuse Pope Francis of committing is expressed in the following proposition: “A Christian believer can have full knowledge of a divine law and voluntarily choose to break it in a serious matter, but not be in a state of mortal sin as a result of this action.” Many of these heretical statements touch on questions of marriage and the family and are to be found in Amoris Laetitia, but there is also a new claim made by Pope Francis in 2019 – namely, that the “diversity of religions” is “willed by God” – that is listed in the open letter.

    Brian,

    This isn’t about the specifics here but I’m not Catholic so my grasp of the specifics is not up to any reasonable standard anyway. This morning I was talking to a friend at minyan (an orthodox Jewish minyan). He is not just a practicing Orthodox Jew but has a background in Jewish Studies, an academic study of Judaism. He was asking about a particular author from the 40s and I remarked that the writer was reacting to 20th-century nihilism going all the way back to the turn of the century. He shot back that I was right and perhaps the whole century should be characterized by this urge towards nihilism. I made my standard sort of a joke to him. I said, “You know the sure way to guarantee diversity is to never make a judgment about anything.” Of course, this would require the purest form of nihilism.

    The text that I’ve highlighted in the quote from your post, sounds very much like the present Pope is trying to get away with my comic take on diversity. He is trying to get away with never making a judgment about anything. Although I am no expert, I suspect that part of a Pope’s job description has got to be about making a few judgments.

    Just a thought.

    Regards,

    Jim

    • #11
    • May 5, 2019, at 9:05 AM PDT
    • 2 likes
  12. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western ChauvinistJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    That meme is the best!

    • #12
    • May 5, 2019, at 9:26 AM PDT
    • 2 likes
  13. Brian Watt Member
    Brian WattJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    James Gawron (View Comment):

    Brian Watt: One of the heresies the authors accuse Pope Francis of committing is expressed in the following proposition: “A Christian believer can have full knowledge of a divine law and voluntarily choose to break it in a serious matter, but not be in a state of mortal sin as a result of this action.” Many of these heretical statements touch on questions of marriage and the family and are to be found in Amoris Laetitia, but there is also a new claim made by Pope Francis in 2019 – namely, that the “diversity of religions” is “willed by God” – that is listed in the open letter.

    Brian,

    This isn’t about the specifics here but I’m not Catholic so my grasp of the specifics is not up to any reasonable standard anyway. This morning I was talking to a friend at minyan (an orthodox Jewish minyan). He is not just a practicing Orthodox Jew but has a background in Jewish Studies, an academic study of Judaism. He was asking about a particular author from the 40s and I remarked that the writer was reacting to 20th-century nihilism going all the way back to the turn of the century. He shot back that I was right and perhaps the whole century should be characterized by this urge towards nihilism. I made my standard sort of a joke to him. I said, “You know the sure way to guarantee diversity is to never make a judgment about anything.” Of course, this would require the purest form of nihilism.

    The text that I’ve highlighted in the quote from your post, sounds very much like the present Pope is trying to get away with my comic take on diversity. He is trying to get away with never making a judgment about anything. Although I am no expert, I suspect that part of a Pope’s job description has got to be about making a few judgments.

    Just a thought.

    Regards,

    Jim

    No, the problem is with the judgements that he is making, not that he’s avoiding making judgements. His statements and pronouncements are a clear and emphatic departure from Catholic teaching for the better part of 2,000 years and very arguably (or quite convincingly) heretical. As has been pointed out by Scott above and others, he also specializes in ‘weaponized ambiguity’ which allows a certain duplicity or speaking with a forked tongue – he will express that men with homosexual tendencies should avoid the priesthood but then support the work of James Martin, the homosexualist priest in New York, who is also promoting heresies and willfully contradicting Church teaching on homosexuality, as well as, promoting other clerics and prelates that have a well-documented history of homosexual predation or overt homosexual activity (McCarrick, Zanchetta, Cocopalmerio, and others). His refusal to even respond to the cardinals who questioned him on Amoris Laetitia (now going on 3 years) is a clear sign of obstinance and/or outright cowardice – not attributes one hopes for in a pope. 

    • #13
    • May 5, 2019, at 10:53 AM PDT
    • 1 like
  14. Scott Wilmot Member

    Well, at least he hasn’t lost his base.

    • #14
    • May 5, 2019, at 11:42 AM PDT
    • 2 likes
  15. Scott Wilmot Member

    Those crazy whacky Germans again. When will Pope Francis do his job of defending the faith and call these nut jobs heretics?

    #DefendTheFaith

    • #15
    • May 5, 2019, at 11:51 AM PDT
    • 2 likes
  16. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western ChauvinistJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    James Gawron (View Comment):
    The text that I’ve highlighted in the quote from your post, sounds very much like the present Pope is trying to get away with my comic take on diversity. He is trying to get away with never making a judgment about anything.

    Oh, he judges alright. And he saves his harshest critiques for orthodox Christians — especially the Roman Catholic ones.

    I’ve read some shocking things he says when he berates adherent Catholic clergy and laity — someone’s been keeping a list somewhere. Now, maybe this happened under previous popes and they berated the heterodox as harshly, but you’d think we’d have heard about it.

    Truly, I do not feel loved by this pope, and that’s pretty unusual in my experience with priests. 

    • #16
    • May 5, 2019, at 2:06 PM PDT
    • 1 like
  17. Saint Augustine Member

    Hey, what about the letter from Pope Benedict? Did I miss a conversation on that?

    • #17
    • May 5, 2019, at 2:57 PM PDT
    • Like
  18. Front Seat Cat Member

    There’s a lot of Pope-bashing on your blog feed along with pictures to match. I understand where you are coming from. There is a lot of scandal, frustration, and confusion presently in the Catholic Church. I’ll ask you a question: Do you know why Pope Benedict “retired”? He has not come out against the currently seated Pope, but has been an encouragement – at 92, his recent letter (unexpected) stated flatly this is not the time for a divided Church or a “new” Church. He is in fact supportive of the current Pope Francis. Doesn’t the “father of lies” seek to do the undoing of the Catholic Church – the one “Foundation” – in spite of all its human flaws, the only supernatural force that stands in the way of complete chaos in the world? The Catholic Church – where all other denominations stem – and the current Pope is on his way to try to bridge the gap between the Orthodox? 

    What I’m getting at is, is it helpful to portray the current Pope as a buffoon, or bring every circumstance to the forefront that is in conflict with many members? I wonder if on the global scale this is helpful to Christians in dark countries, in suffering situations, to portray the Church in this way? This comment may be unpopular but I just need to throw it out…

    • #18
    • May 5, 2019, at 3:06 PM PDT
    • 1 like
  19. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge

    Brian Watt: It’s only going to get uglier and more contentious going forward.

    Not really, the Church is the Pope and the Pope is the Church. God has placed the Pope in the Church for his reasons. If you do not like the way the Church is going then it is time to leave and find another or go without. I know that seems to be the direction I am being forced to go with.

    • #19
    • May 5, 2019, at 3:24 PM PDT
    • Like
  20. Barfly Member

    Obstinate? Sure, but so what? Would you say the same about a Mexican drug lord or the CEO of General Electric – are they obstinate for sticking to their values and strategy?

    Francis is doing as the rabbit folk do in every respect. He encourages sexual indulgence and so devalues life. He works to create new divisions in his flock and in society, and widen existing ones, that he can exploit to distinguish himself. “Suffer the perverted to come to me!”

    Sure, Bergoglio is obstinate – because he knows no other way to be. The problem for Catholics and, given their numbers, for all of us, is that Francis is malicious. His crime against us is betrayal.

    • #20
    • May 5, 2019, at 3:32 PM PDT
    • 1 like
  21. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western ChauvinistJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    Brian Watt: It’s only going to get uglier and more contentious going forward.

    Not really, the Church is the Pope and the Pope is the Church. God has placed the Pope in the Church for his reasons. If you do not like the way the Church is going then it is time to leave and find another or go without. I know that seems to be the direction I am being forced to go with.

    J/J, I know you’re struggling and you seem to have given-in to cynicism, but I just have to push back on this since you keep repeating it. The Pope is not the Church. This is bad theology. The Church was established by Christ who is its Head. She is organic, not institutional (although She has some institutional trappings), and, as such, She occasionally has bad popes. This seems to be one of those times.

    God is our loving Father. He sometimes has to correct us and He does this by allowing us to suffer the consequences of our choices. Do you think we deserve what we’re going through? Something approaching 80% of Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence in Eucharist. At least that percent practice contraception in marriage and over half support same-sex “marriage.” This is a Body in serious trouble. Something like the Francis papacy would seem necessary to (eventually — in God’s time — we may never see it in this life) bring it back to health. Smaller and more orthodox, according to PBXVI.

    We should treat this as a time of lamentation and penance, and realize there is no other place to go (for solid doctrine and especially the sacraments)! This is a desert we have to cross by the grace of God, and no other. Certainly not Pope Francis.

    • #21
    • May 5, 2019, at 4:29 PM PDT
    • 3 likes
  22. Brian Watt Member
    Brian WattJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):

    There’s a lot of Pope-bashing on your blog feed along with pictures to match. I understand where you are coming from. There is a lot of scandal, frustration, and confusion presently in the Catholic Church. I’ll ask you a question: Do you know why Pope Benedict “retired”? He has not come out against the currently seated Pope, but has been an encouragement – at 92, his recent letter (unexpected) stated flatly this is not the time for a divided Church or a “new” Church. He is in fact supportive of the current Pope Francis. Doesn’t the “father of lies” seek to do the undoing of the Catholic Church – the one “Foundation” – in spite of all its human flaws, the only supernatural force that stands in the way of complete chaos in the world? The Catholic Church – where all other denominations stem – and the current Pope is on his way to try to bridge the gap between the Orthodox?

    What I’m getting at is, is it helpful to portray the current Pope as a buffoon, or bring every circumstance to the forefront that is in conflict with many members? I wonder if on the global scale this is helpful to Christians in dark countries, in suffering situations, to portray the Church in this way? This comment may be unpopular but I just need to throw it out…

    You may wish to take your concern up with the Dubia cardinals, the signatories to the recent heresy letter, Patrick Coffin, Dr. Taylor Marshall, Timothy Gordon, Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano…and a host of others more versed and expert Vatican watchers and scholars on this topic. You either are of the mind that those disenchanted or disgusted or incensed about the pontiff’s pronouncements and behavior are somehow wrong to point them out – many of whom who hope that Francis will see the error of his ways and how he is endangering the souls of Catholics and dividing the Church and come to his senses – or – that his critics (me included) are the ones in fact who seek the division and destruction of the Church. I can only assure that that is precisely what I don’t want. I hope for the purging of the sexual and financial corruption and rot in the Vatican hierarchy (McCarrick was a start but only occurred when Abp. Vigano forced the pope’s hand) and in dioceses and seminaries around the world. Rather than addressing that, however, Francis continues promote heresies and promote those who continue to corrupt the institution.

    To ask the question, the way you have, indicates to me that you perhaps haven’t been following this problematic pontificate since Bergoglio was elected. There is a wealth of material online in both text or video format that thoroughly and comprehensively (and I would argue very lucidly and fairly) examines Bergoglio’s troublesome past in Argentina, the machinations of the (self-dubbed) St. Gallen Mafia that campaigned for his papacy (a violation of Canon law), The Vigano letter that called out Francis’ deception about now laicized homosexual predator Theodore McCarrick, the cocaine-fueled gay orgy in an apartment of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith attended by Francis’ handpicked cardinal to run the CDF (Cocopalmerio) where priests and male prostitutes were arrested, the pope’s promotion of personal friend and Argentinian bishop Zanchetta and the Vatican’s laughable claim that Francis was unaware of his years of homosexual predation and fiscal malfeasance even though the South American media had been reporting for more than a year before Francis gave him a position in the Vatican overseeing the Church’s real estate holdings — and other scandals too numerous to list here.

    One also has to ask whether I’m portraying Francis as a buffoon or whether I’m accurately depicting his often buffoonish or duplicitous behavior. Based on everything I’ve read, Bergoglio doesn’t appear to have the intellectual gifts or depth that JPII had or Benedict has. He is essentially a modernist and multicultural apologist with a very Leftist worldview who often spouts socialist talking points. The problem is that, I’m afraid, he just isn’t very smart but in a position of extreme authority. I would suggest to you that there is one person who appears to be hell-bent on dividing the Church and his last name is Bergoglio not Watt.

    Finally, Benedict’s resignation is clouded in mystery to this day. I won’t in engage in conspiracy theories about his resignation. I will say that it’s a well-known and reported fact that he resigned the papacy (though still wears white and uses his papal name – which is strange and unprecedented) the day after a 300-page report on the sexual and financial corruption throughout the Curia was delivered to him by four cardinals who were tasked with gathering the information. The report has not been made public and is not likely to be as long as Bergoglio sits on Peter’s throne.

    • #22
    • May 5, 2019, at 7:50 PM PDT
    • 1 like
  23. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    Brian Watt: It’s only going to get uglier and more contentious going forward.

    Not really, the Church is the Pope and the Pope is the Church. God has placed the Pope in the Church for his reasons. If you do not like the way the Church is going then it is time to leave and find another or go without. I know that seems to be the direction I am being forced to go with.

    J/J, I know you’re struggling and you seem to have given-in to cynicism, but I just have to push back on this since you keep repeating it. The Pope is not the Church. This is bad theology. The Church was established by Christ who is its Head. She is organic, not institutional (although She has some institutional trappings), and, as such, She occasionally has bad popes. This seems to be one of those times.

    God is our loving Father. He sometimes has to correct us and He does this by allowing us to suffer the consequences of our choices. Do you think we deserve what we’re going through? Something approaching 80% of Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence in Eucharist. At least that percent practice contraception in marriage and over half support same-sex “marriage.” This is a Body in serious trouble. Something like the Francis papacy would seem necessary to (eventually — in God’s time — we may never see it in this life) bring it back to health. Smaller and more orthodox, according to PBXVI.

    We should treat this as a time of lamentation and penance, and realize there is no other place to go (for solid doctrine and especially the sacraments)! This is a desert we have to cross by the grace of God, and no other. Certainly not Pope Francis.

    Yes and no. The Church are the people. This is true and written. But in the real world the Popes run the Church and it goes where they say. I watched the Latin mass die because the Popes wanted it and not the people. I have seen other Church changes that the People, clergy did not want but still it happened because the Pope supports it. Now I see a Pope lead the Church and clergy into the acceptance of sexual actions outside past norms, the embracing of liberation theology, the full throated encouragement of every Left wing, socialist, communist fever dream. Pretty much the complete rejection of conservative values and mores. Heck my Church even celebrates our openly homosexual priest to the point I changed parishes. Not that anybody cared, much less the Church.

    So I understand what you are saying about my point being bad theology, it is true. But that does not really mater because in the real world the Pope runs the Church and what he says goes. Sure there will be push back, but in the end the Pope will get his way with any of the flock that don’t accept it leaving or the Church splitting.

    • #23
    • May 5, 2019, at 7:53 PM PDT
    • Like
  24. Scott Wilmot Member

    Dorothy Cummings McLean has a good roundup of those who support, have reservations about, and strongly oppose the Open Letter accusing the pope of heresy:

    Leading Catholics react to Open Letter accusing Pope Francis of heresy

    • #24
    • May 9, 2019, at 5:13 AM PDT
    • 2 likes

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