Will Conservatives Give Russia a Pass?

 

The conservative media world, along with all but a few Republican members of Congress, are in the process of handing Vladimir Putin his greatest victory yet. They are ignoring the copious evidence in the Mueller report that Russia interfered in our election and continues to do so. Pace Jared Kushner, it was a whole lot more sinister than a “couple of Facebook ads.”

The narrative has now taken hold that the Mueller investigation originated with the Steele dossier. On Fox News, Ed Henry said that the FBI relied on the dossier to “get this whole thing going.” Breitbart referred to the “debunked Russia hoax,” and a Wall Street Journal editorial demanded to know how “the partisan propaganda known as the Steele dossier become the basis for an unprecedented FBI probe of a presidential campaign . . . “

As the Mueller report makes clear, and as even the infamous “Nunes memo” of 2018 conceded, the investigation did not begin with the dossier. It began when a foreign government (believed to be Australia) “informed the FBI about its May 2016 interaction with [George] Papadopoulos and his statement that the Russian government could assist the Trump Campaign.”

Sixteen members of the Trump campaign had direct ties with Russians or Russian agents, including President Trump. Some of these were benign. Some were not. Paul Manafort was sharing polling information and plans for winning midwestern states with Konstantin Kilimnik, who has ties to Russian intelligence. Is it the received Republican wisdom now that this was not, at the very least, eyebrow raising?

As for Trump’s connections to Russia, we now know that throughout most of the campaign, even as he was issuing tweets like this one on July 26, 2018 “‘[c]razy’ to suggest that Russia was dealing with Trump . . .  [f]or the record, I had ZERO investments in Russia.” In fact, he had been negotiating one of his largest real estate projects ever, for a Trump Tower Moscow, until just the previous month.

But even if the investigation had begun with the Steele dossier, so what? As they say in legal circles: res ipsa loquitor — “the thing speaks for itself.” The Mueller report is sober and meticulous. The dossier is hardly mentioned. If Republican partisans skip over the documentation of Russian meddling because they’ve internalized Donald Trump’s sense of grievance, they are disserving the nation.

The Russian interference was and is far more extensive than a few Facebook and Twitter posts, though those were noxious enough. The IRA (Internet Research Agency), an arm of the Russian intelligence services, along with the GRU (Russia’s foreign intelligence service), also organized “dozens” of actual rallies, hacked into the computers of the Democratic Party, maliciously spread falsehoods, stoked already existing divisions between Americans of different races and ethnicities, and planted malware. More worrying, the report notes that the Russians aimed at actual voting infrastructure:

Victims included U.S. state and local entities, such as state boards of elections (SBOEs), secretaries of state, and county governments, as well as individuals who worked for those entities. The GRU also targeted private technology firms responsible for manufacturing and administering election-related software and hardware, such as voter registration software and electronic polling stations.

In August 2016, GRU officers targeted employees of [redacted], a voting technology company that developed software used by numerous U.S. counties to manage voter rolls . . .

The independent counsel did not further investigate these attempts to subvert elections because “The Office understands that the FBI, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, and the states have separately investigated that activity.”

Or perhaps not. According to the New York Times, former Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen wanted to make blocking Russian interference in the 2020 election a top priority. She was warned off by Trump’s chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney, who made it clear that the president still regards any mention of Russia as a personal slight.

In a continuation of patterns established under communism, Russia has exerted malign influence on elections in many nations. Throughout the democratic world, they seek to sow the kind of division and distrust they enjoy in mother Russia. Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Ukraine, Hungary, and other former Soviet captives have been particularly hard hit, but the Russians have also stirred the pot of Catalan succession in Spain, boosted Marine Le Pen in France, and helped Brexit in Great Britain. In 2017, the Netherlands switched to all paper ballots to prevent Russian hacking of its election.

What is the difference between other democracies and the U.S.? Only here does dismissing the threat of Russian interference now equate with loyalty to the president.

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  1. Basil Fawlty Member
    Basil Fawlty
    @BasilFawlty

    Will Mona give the Democrats a pass?

    • #1
  2. Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Demo… Coolidge
    Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Demo…
    @GumbyMark

    Sad!  I say sad because I don’t think Mona is dumb.  Therefore she is deliberately ignoring inconvenient facts driven by her hatred of Trump.  So she rolls out the new party line that the Steele Dossier is such an obvious fraud that Mueller hardly mentions it due to his devotion to the truth.

    Mueller and the Bulwark crowd desperately want to act like the dossier never existed because it poses a difficult question for them. Why, if the Kremlin had such a strong preference for Donald Trump, was it feeding damaging information about Trump to the Clinton Campaign via Christopher Steele’s operatives, and why was that information used by the FBI and DOJ to obtain a warrant to spy on the Trump campaign?

    It’s an obvious question for anyone trying to look objectively at the 2016 election.

    Not to mention, why if it was so evident to Mueller that the dossier was inconsequential did the FBI and DOJ think it credible enough to use to seek a warrant allowing them to spy on the Trump campaign, important enough for Comey to brief the President-elect on it, and important enough for Comey, Clapper, Brennan, or McCabe to leak the fact of that briefing to friendly media?

    And why was it so important for Comey to persuade President Trump not to ask the FBI to investigate the allegations made in the dossier?

    C’mon Mona.  Can’t you come up with something better than that?  Sad!

    • #2
  3. Retail Lawyer Member
    Retail Lawyer
    @RetailLawyer

    I think Mueller puffed up the significance of Russian meddling so he would have something serious in the report and to bolster Hillary’s self esteem.  I agree with Zuckerburg when he stated that the interference of Russia was not significant.  Obama, on who’s watch the interference occurred, said it was not a big deal and he told Putin to “cut it out”.  To be sure, Russia had ill intent, but what are you supposed to do?  Social Media is an invitation to pretend to be someone you are not and say ridiculous things.  Also, it is a bit difficult to get on a moral high horse about this since my President, Obama, interfered with the Brexit election, Israeli elections, (and probably the 2016 US election).  So its tough to make a moral case about Russia on this issue.

    Shut down or cripple Social Media.  What else would work?

    • #3
  4. DonG Coolidge
    DonG
    @DonG

    Mona Charen: The Russian interference was and is far more extensive than a few Facebook and Twitter posts, though those were noxious enough. The IRA (Internet Research Agency), an arm of the Russian intelligence services, along with the GRU (Russia’s foreign intelligence service), also organized “dozens” of actual rallies, hacked into the computers of the Democratic Party, maliciously spread falsehoods, stoked already existing divisions between Americans of different races and ethnicities, and planted malware.

    Don’t believe a thing John Brennan says.   Anybody that repeats Brennan (eg, Mueller) is just repeating lies.

    When I make a list of countries that influence our elections, Russia does not make the top 10.  Why are people so obsessed with a minor attempt to influence?  Clearly is it not about the influence.  It must be TDS.

    • #4
  5. Franco Member
    Franco
    @Franco

    All this “Russia interfered with our election” stuff is such an insult to American voters. It’s also a huge distraction ( that’s the intent  I believe) from who actually does influence the elections – the corporate media. The “Russians” would be ecstatic if they had one tenth the influence that these multinational corporations have!

    Unless Mother Russia hacked into the system and actually changed votes, the most they could ever do was spout propaganda, and that would just mean another layer of deceit and propaganda that American voters have learned to filter.

    This outrage covers for the dead voters, the fraud and fixes the Democrats have been doing forever. This is a blatant attempt to deflect anger at losing an election and simultaneously provide a shiny scapegoat on some foreign demon.

    These people are very good at creating distractions. They are despicable. 

    • #5
  6. EJHill Podcaster
    EJHill
    @EJHill

    Mona doesn’t reply to comments. But if if she did there would be questions I’d like for her to answer.

    Do you have any idea what our cyber security forces are doing? Are we clean and acting like little angels? Or, are we doing what the Russians and the Chinese are doing, that is constantly probing the computer infrastructure of our enemies?

    The Russian nationals that Mueller indicted are members of the Russian military. Does Mona expect Russia to give them up? Is she prepared to give up members of our military who engage in cyber warfare? 

    Basically Russia is acting like any state actor, doing whatever they think they can get away with and avoid serious repercussions. Is Mona ready to escalate the nature of the responses to these cyber attacks? She offers no solutions to this problem. Since she seems to have no stomach for Trump’s trade war, how about a real life shooting war?

    Mona correctly identifies the Russian desire for discord. The media, on both sides of the aisle, have dutifully fulfilled Putin’s desires beyond his wildest dreams. And still, while all of this happened on Obama’s watch, the desire remains to blame Trump. Why? Because Trump!

    We all know some can’t seem to get over their Reagan nostalgia, so maybe Trump can mollify here with one of the Gipper’s greatest hits: “My fellow Americans, I’ve outlawed Russia. We begin bombing in five minutes…”

     

    • #6
  7. Russ Schnitzer Member
    Russ Schnitzer
    @RussSchnitzer

    Mona, your beloved FBI and NSA leaders are corrupt.  I don’t believe a word that Muller wrote and that includes “and” and “the”.  He is either a willing political pawn or a criminal ring leader, IMO.  

    Several mentioned “the Russian desire for discord”.  What world do you all live in?  You now have Democrat presidential frontrunners calling for socialism and the Democrat party leaders calling for segregation, reparations, removing the presumption of innocence from our legal system and open borders.  The discord that is obvious and clear to see is not caused by foreign influence.  Russian election meddling is a MacGuffin. 

     

    • #7
  8. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    Mona Charen:

    As the Mueller report makes clear, and as even the infamous “Nunes memo” of 2018 conceded, the investigation did not begin with the dossier. It began when a foreign government (believed to be Australia) “informed the FBI about its May 2016 interaction with [George] Papadopoulos and his statement that the Russian government could assist the Trump Campaign.”

    Sixteen members of the Trump campaign had direct ties with Russians or Russian agents, including President Trump. Some of these were benign. Some were not. Paul Manafort was sharing polling information and plans for winning midwestern states with Konstantin Kilimnik, who has ties to Russian intelligence.

    I don’t find Papadopoulos a particularly compelling figure; he has a book to sell, obviously, and an incentive to portray himself the victim of a vast left-wing conspiracy. On the other hand, I don’t find the Obama-era Justice Department particularly compelling either, for a host of reasons that have been made clear since the election and the embarrassing misconduct and ignominious departure of numerous high-ranking officials.

    In other words, before I speculate about the actual depth of the Russian conspiracy, I’d like to understand more about the behavior of our perhaps overzealous Guardians of Democracy within our own alphabet agencies. And, honestly, I’m more comfortable with calls for a thorough analysis of our country’s behavior leading up and subsequent to the 2016 election than in too-confident statements about Russia’s impact.

    As James Lileks might say, “let’s have ourselves an investigation.”

    • #8
  9. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    More dead people voted Democrat in Cook County than were swayed nationwide by any malign Russian influence operation.

    • #9
  10. Petty Boozswha Inactive
    Petty Boozswha
    @PettyBoozswha

    I share Mona’s opinion of Trump, but I would put a different emphasis on this issue than she does. Russian “probing” is not something to be laughed off or ignored because it hurts Trump’s feelings. We have a party [name starts with a D] that is massively invested in discrediting our elections as unfair and rigged. I’ve mentioned on other threads how Stacy Abrams in particular is dumping acid on the foundation pillars of our democracy with her claims that are lapped up by the gullible media. Republicans should spend whatever modest funds are necessary to nip this in the bud before it gets any worse.

    I also agree with those that say we should have a parallel investigation of how this mess got started headed by someone familiar with DOJ procedures and trusted by Trump supporters. Either Andy McCarthy or Chris Christie come to mind.

    We need statewide control of polling places, ballots and infrastructure for elections. As long as Dems can engineer four hour waits in certain precincts and then blame the dastardly white Republicans for it they will continue to do so.

    • #10
  11. unsk2 Member
    unsk2
    @

    Yes Mona, you were absolutely right. There is a lot of stuff like this piece of spying by the in the Mueller Report:

    Mueller Report Reveals Russia Taped Bill Clinton Having Phone Sex With Monica Lewinsky”

    “Clinton allegedly was recorded by Russia in the 1990s, allowing Russia to learn of the affair before American officials. A reference to the Clinton intercept was redacted from the Mueller report to protect “personal privacy,” but sources told the Washington Examiner that the context makes clear what was blacked out.

    According to the report, Center for the National Interest President Dimitri Simes sent Trump son-in-law Jared Kushner a 2016 email with recommended talking points to counter Hillary Clinton’s Russia attacks. The email referenced “a well-documented story of highly questionable connections” between Bill Clinton and Russia.

    At a meeting in New York, Simes told Kushner the details: Russia allegedly recorded President Clinton on the phone with Lewinsky, opening questions of foreign leverage over the ex-president-turned-potential first spouse. –Washington Examiner”

    We must make Russia pay for this- exposing our Royal Family the Clintons like this is totally unacceptable and just won’t do.

    Of course, as President, Trump  has made the Russians pay – in Crimea, Eastern Europe, the Middle East and in the oil markets – much more so than Obama ever did or what Hillary ever would have done.  Rather than giving the Russians a pass, Trump has made them pay big time.

    • #11
  12. OccupantCDN Coolidge
    OccupantCDN
    @OccupantCDN

    Mona Charen: What is the difference between other democracies and the U.S.? Only here does dismissing the threat of Russian interference now equate with loyalty to the president.

    The democrats spent a BILLION dollars attempting to elect Hillary Clinton president. Thank GOD, they failed. (I mean that literally) The Russians maybe spent $100k on facebook ads and defeated the democrat billion dollar menace? defeated by a campaign 0.0001% the size of their own? How colossally monumentally incompetent must these morons be? Wouldnt this be like playing a foot ball game – taking every snap inside the 1 yard line, and loosing?

    Now lets put the boot on the neck for a moment – does American interference in elections matter? Big name democrat consultants gallivant all over the world bringing American politics and money into elections they have no business being. (to be fair, republican consultants do too) Does John Podesta get to elect a PM in a country where he should have no voice? Where his money makes him, and those who take it criminals?

    If they want to trade collusion for interference, they’ve gone from a conspiracy theorists to hypocrites.

    • #12
  13. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Mona Charen: The conservative media world, along with all but a few Republican members of Congress, are in the process of handing Vladimir Putin his greatest victory yet. They are ignoring the copious evidence in the Mueller report that Russia interfered in our election and continues to do so. Pace Jared Kushner, it was a whole lot more sinister than a “couple of Facebook ads.”

    This is really exciting, I had no idea we even had a, ‘Conservative Media World™’, much less that it was so powerful it could hand victory to anyone at all. 

    • #13
  14. Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Demo… Coolidge
    Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Demo…
    @GumbyMark

    The other troublesome thing about how Mona postures her agreement it is sets up a false choice.  She is saying that if you are concerned about the Steele Dossier, the role of the FBI and DOJ in the Russia collusion story that makes you sympathetic to Putin.  The reality is you can be concerned about both the Steele Dossier, the FBI and DOJ role, and also think Putin is a bad guy.

    The question I have for Mona is why is she so studiously incurious about the Steele Dossier and the role of the FBI and DOJ after all of the revelations over the past two years?  Is she giving those involved a pass because they oppose Trump? 

    • #14
  15. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Demo… (View Comment):

    The other troublesome thing about how Mona postures her agreement it is sets up a false choice. She is saying that if you are concerned about the Steele Dossier, the role of the FBI and DOJ in the Russia collusion story that makes you sympathetic to Putin. The reality is you can be concerned about both the Steele Dossier, the FBI and DOJ role, and also think Putin is a bad guy.

    The question I have for Mona is why is she so studiously incurious about the Steele Dossier and the role of the FBI and DOJ after all of the revelations over the past two years? Is she giving those involved a pass because they oppose Trump?

    Thank you for stating it clearly.

    It  seems to me that internal corruption aimed at undermining the electoral process must be of greater concern than any foreign influence. We will always be subject to foreign influence: that’s just the nature of nation states being in opposition with each other. Our Constitution was designed to protect us from our own government, not from Russia’s. We should be much more concerned about the possibility of internal breakdowns.

    I haven’t followed Ms. Charon’s posts elsewhere. Do we know if she has been critical of our own intelligence agencies and their activities in 2015-2018? If she has, that would go a long way toward reassuring me that she isn’t motivated simply by her oft-expressed dislike for President Trump.

    • #15
  16. OccupantCDN Coolidge
    OccupantCDN
    @OccupantCDN

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Demo… (View Comment):

    The other troublesome thing about how Mona postures her agreement it is sets up a false choice. She is saying that if you are concerned about the Steele Dossier, the role of the FBI and DOJ in the Russia collusion story that makes you sympathetic to Putin. The reality is you can be concerned about both the Steele Dossier, the FBI and DOJ role, and also think Putin is a bad guy.

    The question I have for Mona is why is she so studiously incurious about the Steele Dossier and the role of the FBI and DOJ after all of the revelations over the past two years? Is she giving those involved a pass because they oppose Trump?

    Thank you for stating it clearly.

    It seems to me that internal corruption aimed at undermining the electoral process must be of greater concern than any foreign influence. We will always be subject to foreign influence: that’s just the nature of nation states being in opposition with each other. Our Constitution was designed to protect us from our own government, not from Russia’s. We should be much more concerned about the possibility of internal breakdowns.

    I haven’t followed Ms. Charon’s posts elsewhere. Do we know if she has been critical of our own intelligence agencies and their activities in 2015-2018? If she has, that would go a long way toward reassuring me that she isn’t motivated simply by her oft-expressed dislike for President Trump.

    I agree, the FBI’s politically directed operations against the Trump campaign are far more concerning than anything the Russians did – or have been alleged to have done.

    Its shocking how quickly the democrat machine moves into the state. In less than 8 years the FBI went from a non-partisan law enforcement agency, to a recreation of the KGB. “The sword and shield of the Party” shielding one candidate from prosecution while simultaneously slashing at another with trumped up allegations. (excuse the pun)

     

    • #16
  17. EJHill Podcaster
    EJHill
    @EJHill

    Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Democracy): The question I have for Mona is why is she so studiously incurious about the Steele Dossier and the role of the FBI and DOJ after all of the revelations over the past two years? Is she giving those involved a pass because they oppose Trump? 

    I think you know the answer to that. We have lots of folks on the right who blabber on about “the rule of Law” and yet would gladly stake out a position slightly to the left of Stalin in order to justify a show trial. And that’s not hyperbole. If you have ever written any sentence that includes the following phrases you are not interested in the rule of law:

    ”The Mueller Report clearly states…”

    ”We know the Mueller Report shows that…”

    ”Mueller and his team of investigators found…”

    This is a prosecutorial document. In it Robert Mueller and his team allege many things. They offer their version and interpretations. It is not Gospel. 

    • #17
  18. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    This is a great discussion.

    • #18
  19. Mim526 Inactive
    Mim526
    @Mim526

    I believe the Russian influence of far greater concern than attempts to influence a particular US election is their increasingly intertwined business/political relationship with supposed Western allies like Germany, and with China.  

     

    • #19
  20. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    • #20
  21. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Demo… (View Comment):

    The other troublesome thing about how Mona postures her agreement it is sets up a false choice. She is saying that if you are concerned about the Steele Dossier, the role of the FBI and DOJ in the Russia collusion story that makes you sympathetic to Putin. The reality is you can be concerned about both the Steele Dossier, the FBI and DOJ role, and also think Putin is a bad guy.

    The question I have for Mona is why is she so studiously incurious about the Steele Dossier and the role of the FBI and DOJ after all of the revelations over the past two years? Is she giving those involved a pass because they oppose Trump?

    The real collusion in the 2016 election was between the Hillary campaign, the Obama DOJ and foreign governments hostile to Trump.

    • #21
  22. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Demo… (View Comment):
    Sad! I say sad because I don’t think Mona is dumb.

    I do.

    • #22
  23. Guruforhire Inactive
    Guruforhire
    @Guruforhire

    How is this screed different than the alt-right ranting about (((them)))?

    • #23
  24. EDISONPARKS Member
    EDISONPARKS
    @user_54742

    I was hoping when this Trump era ended Conservatives would reunite and let bygones be bygones, but this Mona article burns all bridges.

    You can speculate all you want as to the Trump Russian collusion that ostensibly happened but was not criminal enough to bring a Federal criminal indictment, but to deny or ignore the Obama DOJ/FBI/IC extraordinary abuse of power/malfeasance/corruption in my opinion makes those who engage in this purposeful act of excusing or ignoring the Obama DOJ/FBI/IC malfeasance a part of the corruption.

    The Obama DOJ/FBI/IC abuse of power has little to do with Trump himself other than Trump was the target in this scandal and Trump’s unexpected victory was what exposed this massive scandal.

    Mona Charen hates Trump so much she will go down in history as one who excused the most disgusting abuse of power by our Federal counter intelligence and law enforcement agencies in the history of the United States.

    History will thoroughly embarrass Mona Charen

    EJHill (View Comment):

    Gumby Mark (R-Meth Lab of Democracy): The question I have for Mona is why is she so studiously incurious about the Steele Dossier and the role of the FBI and DOJ after all of the revelations over the past two years? Is she giving those involved a pass because they oppose Trump?

    I think you know the answer to that. We have lots of folks on the right who blabber on about “the rule of Law” and yet would gladly stake out a position slightly to the left of Stalin in order to justify a show trial. And that’s not hyperbole. If you have ever written any sentence that includes the following phrases you are not interested in the rule of law:

    ”The Mueller Report clearly states…”

    ”We know the Mueller Report shows that…”

    ”Mueller and his team of investigators found…”

    This is a prosecutorial document. In it Robert Mueller and his team allege many things. They offer their version and interpretations. It is not Gospel.

    It’s a prosecutorial document produced by prosecutors who so desperately wanted to screw Trump to the wall that even though it was  obvious from the start of the investigation there never was an underlying crime, and that the underlying FBI investigation was “tainted”, these authors of the Mueller report proceeded to ignore the obvious Obama DOJ/FBI/IC malfeasance sitting right in front of them, and spent the next 674 days trying to develop an obstruction of justice case against Trump knowing full well there was no underlying crime to obstruct.

    One should read the Mueller report for what it is, a political document written to give those predisposed to TDS the opportunity to further beclown themselves.

    • #24
  25. RyanFalcone Member
    RyanFalcone
    @RyanFalcone

    I think it wise to call  out folks for being too lax on Russian interference. Unfortunately, this laxity goes back several election cycles and when Mona ignorantly puts the issue in the context of “Orange man bad!!!!!!” it blurs everything. The Russians didn’t want Trump to win. They had tens of thousands of troops set to invade Ukraine the moment Hillary was President. Trump’s victory saved thousands of lives. What the Russians wanted was to have leverage on whomever won and to create chaos here. Well, they succeeded on getting dirt on Hill and succeeded in giving the Dems the ammo needed to bring the 2nd part to fruition.

    Trump surrounded himself with bad people. There is no excuse for that. Those people seem to be gone.

    Mona is now in collusion with the Russians far more so than Trump ever was and there is no excuse for that.

    • #25
  26. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    You don’t have to be a fan of Trump’s persona (I know, ’cause I’m not) to be outraged at the abuse of the FISA courts and the perversion of the FBI and the DOJ.

    Would it have been okay for W. to have overseen shenanigans such as this in 2008? No? Well okay then.

    I grew up watching Ephraim Zimbalist Jr. on “The FBI.” I thought of the FBI as heroes. Most of them still are, but …

    … that is not a hero.

    • #26
  27. Columbo Inactive
    Columbo
    @Columbo

    • #27
  28. Columbo Inactive
    Columbo
    @Columbo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bowhUWl6rxQ

     

    • #28
  29. Columbo Inactive
    Columbo
    @Columbo

    • #29
  30. Brian Clendinen Inactive
    Brian Clendinen
    @BrianClendinen

    This is such a trit post and is making a mountain out of a mole hill. The fact you are shocked the Russians have done this just means you are just playing into the dems mass histarrira. Hate to break it to you the Russians have been doing this for decades. Oh here is another shocker the U.S has been doing this for a century plus. Ever read history about banana republics. Heck we shoved a constution down the Japens throat. Like that is not influencing a goverment and elections. You know who else does it, journalist! Here is a real big shocker elecected politicians try to influence elections. I am just shocked shocked about this.

    Other than vote tampering please stop the utter silliness. Its the method and how widepread and unethical that method is of trying to influnce elections. Regardless of who the actors are of the method.

    • #30
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