Wake up the President? Terrorist Mass Murder at New Zealand Mosques [Updated midday Friday]

 

On Friday afternoon, 15 March 2019, New Zealand time, there was a horrific terrorist attack at least two mosques in New Zealand. They are 20 hours ahead of the U.S. West Coast time. According to the initial reports, an attacker livestreamed the event. The image, at right, was captured by media before the video was taken down. There apparently was a lengthy manifesto. There have been multiple people arrested. It appears this was an attack by white New Zealand and Australian citizens on Muslims.

New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said: “This can only be described as a terrorist attack.” The linked BBC page has a series of videos. The PM is not inclined to tweet. Indeed, you can see her last communication was in October.

The initial casualties being reported are 40 killed and over 20 wounded at two mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand:

Of the confirmed 40 people killed, 30 were killed at Al Noor mosque and 10 killed at Linwood mosque. That 10 figure includes three people who were outside Linwood Avenue mosque at the time.

The casualty reports have trended up to 49 dead and 48 being treated in area hospitals. Follow the live blog on the Christchurch mosque shootings, at the Strait Times, out of Singapore, for a regional view.

Initial reports indicated a single shooter, self-identified as “Brenton Tarrant,” methodically gunning people down, starting with worshipers who had just begun their Friday evening prayers.

Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison has confirmed that one of the four people taken into custody is Australian. Media reports had said that a man who called himself “Brenton Tarrant” – a white, 28-year-old Australia-born man – claimed to be the shooter and livestreamed the shooting for 17 minutes.

If it was only the one shooter, not only was he uninterrupted in his slaughter, but he had the freedom to drive from one mosque to another and continue his killing spree.

So, our intelligence and law enforcement community has to be asking if this is a small cell trying to make itself look significant on the internet? Is anyone in the U.S. following, interacting with, the individuals or network implicated in the attack? Are there any signs emerging overnight of people who start chattering about a copycat attack here?

The clock is ticking towards Friday evening prayer services at mosques in the United States. So, what steps are being taken to prevent an attack on one or more mosques here? At the same time, are there signs of Muslims or other Jew-haters deciding that this is as good an excuse at the last one for attacking Hasidic or Orthodox Jews on the streets, or targeting Jewish businesses or places of worship come Saturday?

A lot of professionals are surely working through our nighttime. Before waking President Trump, DHS Secretary Nielsen and National Security Advisor Bolton had better have a clear assessment and recommended a course of action.

Rest assured that the Jew-haters, led by Rep. Ilhan Omar, will shout Islamaphobia, and the media arm of the left will blame guns and President Trump. The Democrats’ failure to properly censor targeted hatred of Jews will now be praised as just the right, balanced message. In New Zealand, there is both widespread gun ownership and very strict controls and inspections for ownership fitness. Their history is not ours, and their politics are not ours. Accordingly, we should be careful in any attempted analysis or drawing of conclusions.


Update—midday Friday, U.S. West Coast time:
* The most comprehensive straight news summary, updated regularly, is in the Strait Times article “‘One of New Zealand’s darkest days’: At least 49 killed in terror attacks on Christchurch mosques.”
* National Security Advisor John Bolton spoke to reporters on the White House driveway, prior to joining the president, vice president, and national security team for a national security meeting at the Pentagon. Bolton was very measured in his words on both the New Zealand attack and North Korea developments.
* Secretary of State Pompeo had an excellent statement on the terrorist attack in New Zealand, followed by a very strong statement on Yemen, and the International Criminal Court. He echoed the New Zealand PM’s language, calling it an “hour of darkness.”
* President Trump’s first tweet of the day read:

My warmest sympathy and best wishes goes out to the people of New Zealand after the horrible massacre in the Mosques. 49 innocent people have so senselessly died, with so many more seriously injured. The U.S. stands by New Zealand for anything we can do. God bless all!

 

 

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  1. Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu Inactive
    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu
    @YehoshuaBenEliyahu

    Valiuth (View Comment):
    The mirror image of the classic liberal sentiment “gee I hope that guy mowing down a crowd with his car isn’t a Muslim, because it will just give fuel to the righties.

    We need to understand that the left will hate Trump and conservatives no matter what.  Trump was so right when he said we do not have to worry that if we call an emergency at the border the democrats will call for emergency measures when they regain power.  As Trump says, they will do it anyway.  Here, too, the left’s fire burns hotter and hotter regardless of current affairs or particular acts.

    • #31
  2. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Valiuth (View Comment):

    Clifford A. Brown (View Comment):

    Herbert defender of the Realm,… (View Comment):

    Is it unlikely that the nativism that Trump preaches has no effect outside our own borders? It’s time for some self reflection amongst a lot of people.

    Nonsense. Vicious nonsense.

    And yet the primary sentiment expressed about this incident in the comments here can be summed up as “Oh how terrible this will be used against us”. The mirror image of the classic liberal sentiment “gee I hope that guy mowing down a crowd with his car isn’t a Muslim, because it will just give fuel to the righties.”

    Muslim worshiper gunned down during prayers: American conservatives hardest hit….

     

    We know how the game is played.  This guy has nothing to do with Trump or conservatism.

    “The nation with the closest political and social values to my own is the People’s Republic of China”…

    But somehow we have to grovel about it.

    Just like the events in Charlottesville.  One lunatic panics and runs people over and we are all supposed to kowtow.  Sorry. Not buying it.

    • #32
  3. LibertyDefender Member
    LibertyDefender
    @LibertyDefender

    Clifford A. Brown (quoting Jeffrey Tucker)(View Comment):
    people should have equal freedom to live their lives unencumbered by states and violence, that society contains within itself the capacity to manage itself without the intervention of fanatical ideologues who imagine themselves to be masters of our fate, that every single human life is worthy of dignity and deserving of respect.

    I’m not a fan of tattoos, but I would have difficulty complaining if any beautiful 19 year were to have the above tattooed on say, her shoulderblade.

    • #33
  4. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Valiuth (View Comment):

    Clifford A. Brown (View Comment):

    Herbert defender of the Realm,… (View Comment):

    Is it unlikely that the nativism that Trump preaches has no effect outside our own borders? It’s time for some self reflection amongst a lot of people.

    Nonsense. Vicious nonsense.

    And yet the primary sentiment expressed about this incident in the comments here can be summed up as “Oh how terrible this will be used against us”. The mirror image of the classic liberal sentiment “gee I hope that guy mowing down a crowd with his car isn’t a Muslim, because it will just give fuel to the righties.”

    Muslim worshiper gunned down during prayers: American conservatives hardest hit….

     

    We know how the game is played. This guy has nothing to do with Trump or conservatism.

    “The nation with the closest political and social values to my own is the People’s Republic of China”…

    But somehow we have to grovel about it.

    Just like the events in Charlottesville. One lunatic panics and runs people over and we are all supposed to kowtow. Sorry. Not buying it.

    Didn’t you  know that the NRA and its supporters are to blame? You don’t have to look hard to learn about it.

    I suppose if we had gun control like New Zealand does, this wouldn’t have happened.

    Never let a tragedy go to waste.   

    • #34
  5. Clifford A. Brown Member
    Clifford A. Brown
    @CliffordBrown

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Valiuth (View Comment):

    Clifford A. Brown (View Comment):

    Herbert defender of the Realm,… (View Comment):

    Is it unlikely that the nativism that Trump preaches has no effect outside our own borders? It’s time for some self reflection amongst a lot of people.

    Nonsense. Vicious nonsense.

    And yet the primary sentiment expressed about this incident in the comments here can be summed up as “Oh how terrible this will be used against us”. The mirror image of the classic liberal sentiment “gee I hope that guy mowing down a crowd with his car isn’t a Muslim, because it will just give fuel to the righties.”

    Muslim worshiper gunned down during prayers: American conservatives hardest hit….

     

    We know how the game is played. This guy has nothing to do with Trump or conservatism.

    “The nation with the closest political and social values to my own is the People’s Republic of China”…

    But somehow we have to grovel about it.

    Just like the events in Charlottesville. One lunatic panics and runs people over and we are all supposed to kowtow. Sorry. Not buying it.

    Didn’t you know that the NRA and its supporters are to blame? You don’t have to look hard to learn about it.

    I suppose if we had gun control like New Zealand does, this wouldn’t have happened.

    Never let a tragedy go to waste.

    As I noted in the last paragraph of the OP:

    In New Zealand, there is both widespread gun ownership and very strict controls and inspections for ownership fitness. Their history is not ours, and their politics are not ours. Accordingly, we should be careful in any attempted analysis or drawing of conclusions.

    From the Straits Times article cited:

    There hasn’t been a mass shooting in New Zealand since 1990, when a man killed 13 people, including two six-year-olds, after a dispute with his neighbour in the seaside town of Aramoana, the New York Times said. 

    That shooting led to tightened gun laws, including restrictions on “military style semi-automatic weapons”, according to the report.

    Gun owners must be licensed, a process that includes a review of criminal activity and mental health, attendance at a safety programme, an explanation of how the gun would be used, a residence visit to ensure secure storage, and testimonials from relatives and friends. 

    Homicides are rare in New Zealand, and gun deaths even rarer. There were 35 homicides countrywide in 2017.

    Since 2007, gun homicides have been in the single digits each year except 2009, when there were 11. 

    But there are plenty of guns. There were 1.2 million registered firearms in a country of 4.6 million people in 2017, according to the Small Arms Survey, a Swiss non-profit. 

    • #35
  6. Kay of MT Inactive
    Kay of MT
    @KayofMT

    Moderator Note:

    Code of Conduct. Ad Hominem

    Poor souls, crying about their own being killed or injured. What a shame. [redacted] I haven’t forgotten.

    • #36
  7. Clifford A. Brown Member
    Clifford A. Brown
    @CliffordBrown

    I appreciate Andrew Klavan’s “My Thoughts And Prayers:”

    When tragedy or atrocity strikes — as it just did with the mosque shootings in New Zealand — thoughts and prayers are not just an expression of compassion. They are, more importantly and more wisely, an expression of humility and helplessness. They are a way of saying: “There is nothing we can do in the face of this wickedness but we stand in solidarity with the victims and ask God to comfort their families in their sorrow.”

    Almost every other reaction is absurd. To suggest you have the solution to the eternal problem of evil in the form of addressing your pet peeve or of blaming and attacking your political opponents is disgraceful. It is to use the bodies of the slain for a soap box. It degrades you and insults the victims.

    […]

    The philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein famously wrote: “Whereof one cannot speak thereof one must be silent.” In the face of evil and unimaginable suffering, there is nothing wrong with having nothing to say. All we can do is feel for the victims and appeal to that great Heart of Righteousness we trust will triumph at the end of time.

    My thoughts and prayers.

    • #37
  8. Clifford A. Brown Member
    Clifford A. Brown
    @CliffordBrown

    Rod Dreher writes “Radicalization & Degeneration:”

    It’s more radical to work to build the kind of culture that is life-giving, and to create new forms within which it can be lived out, than to give your life over to murdering innocent men, women, and children. This is true whether you are an ISIS terrorist, or a white nationalist terrorist. Those devils bring nothing but pain and death. They are no solution.

    • #38
  9. Guruforhire Inactive
    Guruforhire
    @Guruforhire

    Herbert defender of the Realm,… (View Comment):

    Is it unlikely that the nativism that Trump preaches has no effect outside our own borders? It’s time for some self reflection amongst a lot of people.

    concern troll is concerned.

    • #39
  10. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Guruforhire (View Comment):

    Herbert defender of the Realm,… (View Comment):

    Is it unlikely that the nativism that Trump preaches has no effect outside our own borders? It’s time for some self reflection amongst a lot of people.

    concern troll is concerned.

    Honestly, it does seem very unlikely.  No offence intended, but even within the US there is a very limited segment that sees the President as a thought leader of any kind.

    Trump’s election is the local expression of one set of responses to socioeconomic change (crisis for some).  Arguably Tarrant is another, but correlation is not causality.

    It is human to react and to blame and to distance oneself from the obvious criminality of the expressions which are criminal or cruel or particularly stupid, but wisdom requires understanding. 

    • #40
  11. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Valiuth (View Comment):

    Muslim worshiper gunned down during prayers: American conservatives hardest hit….

    Or, as NSFW Wonkette puts it:

    When Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is factoring into your reasoning about how to feel about 49 Muslim worshippers being murdered during Friday prayers, you have issues.

     

    • #41
  12. ST Member
    ST
    @

    Kay of MT (View Comment):

    Poor souls, crying about their own being killed or injured. What a shame. [redacted] I haven’t forgotten.

    Something about live by the sword die by the sword?

    • #42
  13. ST Member
    ST
    @

    As stated previously this is your new normal.  We might have been able to win the peace about 6 years ago.  The ‘struggle’ will be more difficult now. 

    • #43
  14. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Similar rather than different:

    Their enemies are different, but their grievances and methods can look strikingly similar. The suspected gunman charged with killing 49 people at a mosque in New Zealand on Friday was a white nationalist, bent on killing Muslims. But in many respects, he’s not so different from the jihadists who have conducted similar mass shootings on behalf of violent Islamist groups.

    And:

    Words offer little solace when innocents are murdered. But they can light the way forward, as Martin Luther King Jr. showed in the 1963 eulogy he delivered for the victims of another white-supremacist terror attack on a house of worship.

    He declared that the slaughtered did not die in vain, for “God still has a way of wringing good out of evil,” and that the victims had something to tell us in their deaths.

    “They have something to say to every politician who has fed his constituents with the stale bread of hatred and the spoiled meat of racism,” King said. “They say to us that we must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced the murderers.”

    • #44
  15. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Kay of MT (View Comment):

    Poor souls, crying about their own being killed or injured. What a shame. [redacted] I haven’t forgotten.

    This is a list of targeted acts of terrorism on Christian civilians and church workers by religious Muslims since September 11th, 2001.  These attacks have nothing to do with war, combat or insurgency.  The victims are innocent Christians who were specifically targeted and abused solely on account of their faith by those who claim their own religion as a motive.

     

    • #45
  16. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Valiuth (View Comment):

    Muslim worshiper gunned down during prayers: American conservatives hardest hit….

    Or, as NSFW Wonkette puts it:

    When Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is factoring into your reasoning about how to feel about 49 Muslim worshippers being murdered during Friday prayers, you have issues.

     

    In a context where the fallout is both entirely predictable and institutionally overwhelming, and the healthy ‘thoughts and prayers’ response is itself vilified, its something that cannot be avoided without paying a huge price for it later.  Kind of like worrying about a tsunami in the wake of a major coastal earthquake, it in no way reflects a disregard for innocent lives lost to any tragedy that could trigger a witch hunt or Reichstag Fire scenario.

    No, it isn’t healthy.  The alternative is even less healthy.  That’s the world we live in.

    • #46
  17. Kay of MT Inactive
    Kay of MT
    @KayofMT

    Kozak (View Comment):
    This is a list of targeted acts of terrorism on Christian civilians and church workers by religious Muslims since September 11th, 2001.

    That list would be much larger if all the attacks on the general populations, the religiously unknowns, the non-Christian known and Jews were included.

    • #47
  18. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    From NIOTPrinceton:

    Sometimes when people are fearful, they become vicious and lash out. Their senses of reality become skewed (which may be a form of mental illness). Their fight or flight instinct is triggered and instead of retreating, some decide to go on the offense, and in this case, attacking self-selected enemies. Is the fear really that they (white nationalists) will become irrelevant at best or extinct at worse? How do we dispel or alleviate what seems to some as a real threat? How do we allay the fears of people who have delusions that “others” are plotting to destroy them? When we are able to answer these complex questions, we will at best have an opportunity to solve these problems or at least learn to better manage them.

    ///

    Though I would say it’s applicable to more than white nationalists or people who believe that this replacement thing is real.  Its essentially a broader point.  

    • #48
  19. Shauna Hunt Inactive
    Shauna Hunt
    @ShaunaHunt

    Clifford A. Brown (View Comment):

    I appreciate Andrew Klavan’s “My Thoughts And Prayers:”

    When tragedy or atrocity strikes — as it just did with the mosque shootings in New Zealand — thoughts and prayers are not just an expression of compassion. They are, more importantly and more wisely, an expression of humility and helplessness. They are a way of saying: “There is nothing we can do in the face of this wickedness but we stand in solidarity with the victims and ask God to comfort their families in their sorrow.”

    Almost every other reaction is absurd. To suggest you have the solution to the eternal problem of evil in the form of addressing your pet peeve or of blaming and attacking your political opponents is disgraceful. It is to use the bodies of the slain for a soap box. It degrades you and insults the victims.

    […]

    The philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein famously wrote: “Whereof one cannot speak thereof one must be silent.” In the face of evil and unimaginable suffering, there is nothing wrong with having nothing to say. All we can do is feel for the victims and appeal to that great Heart of Righteousness we trust will triumph at the end of time.

    My thoughts and prayers.

    This is beautiful!

    • #49
  20. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Similar rather than different:

    Their enemies are different, but their grievances and methods can look strikingly similar. The suspected gunman charged with killing 49 people at a mosque in New Zealand on Friday was a white nationalist, bent on killing Muslims. But in many respects, he’s not so different from the jihadists who have conducted similar mass shootings on behalf of violent Islamist

    Really?  In what way?  Do the shooters have a major world religion with billion people supporting their ideology backing them?  Because the jihadist do.  

    • #50
  21. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    My prayers for the dead and their families. Horrendous. Evil. May God provide peace and justice. 

    • #51
  22. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Kay of MT (View Comment):

    Poor souls, crying about their own being killed or injured. What a shame. [redacted] I haven’t forgotten.

    This is a list of targeted acts of terrorism on Christian civilians and church workers by religious Muslims since September 11th, 2001. These attacks have nothing to do with war, combat or insurgency. The victims are innocent Christians who were specifically targeted and abused solely on account of their faith by those who claim their own religion as a motive.

     

    Yes but we don’t retaliate against innocent people. These poor people were just living their lives, not plotting jihad. 

    • #52
  23. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Similar rather than different:

    Their enemies are different, but their grievances and methods can look strikingly similar. The suspected gunman charged with killing 49 people at a mosque in New Zealand on Friday was a white nationalist, bent on killing Muslims. But in many respects, he’s not so different from the jihadists who have conducted similar mass shootings on behalf of violent Islamist

    Really? In what way? Do the shooters have a major world religion with billion people supporting their ideology backing them? Because the jihadist do.

    There’s apparently more sympathy with Tarrant’s concerns than I would have thought. Meaning more people think theses concerns are  reality based than I would have thought possible.  So there’s that. 

    Also odd similarity in: there are Muslims who automatically respond to questions about Terrorism by Muslims with a ‘what about how many people the West has killed in X, the West is fundamentally aggressive and racist, you can see that by its history, here are some examples’ – and what is strange is that they don’t even seem to be conscious that they are not addressing the issue, and that they’re changing the subject.  The mind is a slippery thing.  

    • #53
  24. Clifford A. Brown Member
    Clifford A. Brown
    @CliffordBrown

    Manny (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Kay of MT (View Comment):

    Poor souls, crying about their own being killed or injured. What a shame. [redacted] I haven’t forgotten.

    This is a list of targeted acts of terrorism on Christian civilians and church workers by religious Muslims since September 11th, 2001. These attacks have nothing to do with war, combat or insurgency. The victims are innocent Christians who were specifically targeted and abused solely on account of their faith by those who claim their own religion as a motive.

    Yes but we don’t retaliate against innocent people. These poor people were just living their lives, not plotting jihad.

    It seems to me more productive to take these facts and frame them as follows:

    “How dreadful that a hateful proponent of an extremist ideology would engage in mass murder of those he hates. Public figures and media organizations have just demonstrated they know the right and decent way to respond to mass murder, and to murderous ideologues. Therefore, they are entirely without excuse for their willful failure to cover, or active covering up by mischaracterizing, mass murder of Christians.”

    • #54
  25. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Clifford A. Brown (View Comment):

    “How dreadful that a hateful proponent of an extremist ideology would engage in mass murder of those he hates. Public figures and media organizations have just demonstrated they know the right and decent way to respond to mass murder, and to murderous ideologues. Therefore, they are entirely without excuse for their willful failure to cover, or active covering up by mischaracterizing, mass murder of Christians.”

    I agree that we (public figure, media organisations, all of us) should respond consistently when these events occur.  With that said, not according them the importance of their own context does them an injustice, and creates more heat than light.  Wrt Nigeria:

    Over the last two decades, Nigeria has experienced at least 2, 500 violent events in the form of riots, protests, terrorist attacks, and other expressions of collective brutality….Over 40, 000 people have been killed…incidents of large-scale violence are disproportionately concentrated in the central region also known as the “Middle Belt”. The media often describe these conflicts as “religious crises” and reconciliatory measures have focused on engaging Christian and Muslim leaders to broker peace [but] labelling these clashes “religious” is a gross oversimplification and has motivated an intervention approach that focuses on interreligious reconciliation without paying attention to the underlying issues…In addition to building links across religious divides, an effective peacebuilding strategy should address the long-running contestations over indigeneity, resource-based competition, power tussles and struggles related to land ownership and use.

    Which actually aligns more closely with Tarrant’s motivation than religious ideology.  He didn’t shoot people in a mosque because of what they believed but because he believed that their very presence in the West (whether peaceful or not) represented an existential danger to his own ethnic group. And because he thought he would get more support from other white people because Muslim migrants are already a high profile out-group in much of the West.

    He was targeting an audience when wrapping this particular product.

    More on Nigeria here and here.  And interestingly here.  I don’t know if anybody else subscribes to Radio War Nerd, but this week there was a very interesting podcast on conflicts in the Sahel, which mostly involve the movement of peoples (ethnic and religious identity often overlaps), competition of resources and resulting conflicts. (Next week he will do one on Nigeria.)

    Now in societies which are organised by ethno-religious identity and where wealth is largely created from primary production the zero sum competition between different immutable groups has a ghastly logic.  And because human societies were like that for so very long perhaps it’s an instinctive tendency for us still?

    However.  In societies which are not organised by ethno-religious identity (ie where ‘Englightenment Values’ dominate social and political structures) and where wealth is overwhelmingly created by secondary and tertiary production (ie no longer a zero sum game) this viewpoint is not realistic but fantastical.

    (Maybe paranoid?)

    • #55
  26. Fake John/Jane Galt Coolidge
    Fake John/Jane Galt
    @FakeJohnJaneGalt

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Similar rather than different:

    Their enemies are different, but their grievances and methods can look strikingly similar. The suspected gunman charged with killing 49 people at a mosque in New Zealand on Friday was a white nationalist, bent on killing Muslims. But in many respects, he’s not so different from the jihadists who have conducted similar mass shootings on behalf of violent Islamist

    Really? In what way? Do the shooters have a major world religion with billion people supporting their ideology backing them? Because the jihadist do.

    There’s apparently more sympathy with Tarrant’s concerns than I would have thought. Meaning more people think theses concerns are reality based than I would have thought possible. So there’s that.

    Also odd similarity in: there are Muslims who automatically respond to questions about Terrorism by Muslims with a ‘what about how many people the West has killed in X, the West is fundamentally aggressive and racist, you can see that by its history, here are some examples’ – and what is strange is that they don’t even seem to be conscious that they are not addressing the issue, and that they’re changing the subject. The mind is a slippery thing.

    I am not in sympathy with either point of views.  I just recognize thinking that white supremacy which does not significantly exist in any organized form, is not supported by any government or religion is any way equivalent to jihadist that seems to be supported by many Muslims around the world, seems to be supported by many countries around the world seemed to be backed by lots of money from around the world to the point that they field armies that can stop very large nations are similar is a silly and disengenerous.

    • #56
  27. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    I think that’s ignoring the identitarian movement in the West.  If somebody believes that the West is being over-run by Muslim migrants they do believe in what motivated Tarrant – and we are democracies.  If enough people believe that it will eventually be reflected in the make up of our Governments and in their policies.  Something that is starting to happen?

    Edit: also – some of the responses to this Muslim migrants being shot by a white supremacist, even on this thread but also elsewhere, have been to talk about the problem with Islam and Muslims.  I am not suggesting that these responses should be shut down, but I think instinctively talking about what’s wrong with Muslims in response to Muslim civilians in New Zealand being shot really illustrates something about where (some of) society is on all of this.

    As, perhaps, does the disinclination to directly address the shooter’s motivations in the context of the shooter’s actions. Were his actions wrong but his motivations correct?  I don’t think that conversation should be shut down, I think it should be had.

    • #57
  28. Chris Campion Coolidge
    Chris Campion
    @ChrisCampion

    Zafar (View Comment):

    I think that’s ignoring the identitarian movement in the West. If somebody believes that the West is being over-run by Muslim migrants they do believe in what motivated Tarrant – and we are democracies. If enough people believe that it will eventually be reflected in the make up of our Governments and in their policies. Something that is starting to happen?

    Edit: also – some of the responses to this Muslim migrants being shot by a white supremacist, even on this thread but also elsewhere, have been to talk about the problem with Islam and Muslims. I am not suggesting that these responses should be shut down, but I think instinctively talking about what’s wrong with Muslims in response to Muslim civilians in New Zealand being shot really illustrates something about where (some of) society is on all of this.

    As, perhaps, does the disinclination to directly address the shooter’s motivations in the context of the shooter’s actions. Were his actions wrong but his motivations correct? I don’t think that conversation should be shut down, I think it should be had.

    Isn’t that what’s happening?

    Also, I can easily ignore something that doesn’t hit the radar.  Identitarian?  If that’s a movement, then they’re sure doing a lousy job of getting the word out.

    There will always be idiots.  I don’t think extrapolating the idea that if there’s a small group of idiots somewhere, they might be able to garner votes, and therefore take over the entire government and direct policy and set the world aflame, is a logical extrapolation.  Ask the buckethead party.

    • #58
  29. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    With respect, I don’t think you can have a conversation about the shooter’s motives without actually talking about the shooter’s motives.  

    Re identitarian:

    https://www.economist.com/europe/2018/03/28/how-identitarian-politics-is-changing-europe

     

    • #59
  30. LibertyDefender Member
    LibertyDefender
    @LibertyDefender

    Fake John/Jane Galt (View Comment):

    [T]hinking that white supremacy which does not significantly exist in any organized form, … is any way equivalent to jihadist [Islamism] … is [] silly and disengenerous.

    Dangerous, even.

    • #60
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