What has happened to the FISA court?

 

It seems to me that the FISA court has been defrauded at least three times by the FBI/Justice department.  If I was a Judge on the court who was led to sign off on an application based on fraudulent data, I would be furious and someone would be in front of me getting questioned severely (i.e. getting reamed out) and in real danger of some sort of imprisonment.  Why have we not heard anything of any repercussions?

Also, as Chief Justice, Roberts is in charge of the FISA court.  Where is he?

My recollection (please correct me if I’m wrong), is that just when the FISA court law was up for renewal, the abuse started becoming clear.  Ryan and McConnell pushed through the renewal very quickly.  Why the rush?

All of the revelations about the FBI and Justice department has taught me that I can’t be cynical enough.

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  1. EDISONPARKS Member
    EDISONPARKS
    @user_54742

    Given there appears to have been little to no repercussion, other than firings and “early retirements”,  for any of the known Obama DOJ/FBI/IC malfeasance makes me question my own bias … and sanity for that matter ….(Is it my bias which causes me to see this entire debacle as the worst abuse of power ever? )

    We are supposed to sit back and wait with wheels of justice set in the locked position until the Mueller investigation is over ….WTF!

    • #1
  2. WillowSpring Member
    WillowSpring
    @WillowSpring

    EDISONPARKS (View Comment):
    We are suppose to sit back and wait with wheels of justice set in the locked position until the Mueller investigation is over ….WTF!

    My cynical self ( and that is about all I have left) is that this is the main point of the Mueller probe.

    • #2
  3. philo Member
    philo
    @philo

    WillowSpring: Why the rush?

    Yea, the answer to that should make most of us very uncomfortable. 

    • #3
  4. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    WillowSpring: All of the revelations about the FBI and Justice department has taught me that I can’t be cynical enough.

    Humans. You can always trust them…to fulfill human nature.

    • #4
  5. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    WillowSpring: Also, as Chief Justice, Roberts is in charge of the FISA court. Where is he?

    I think Roberts has gone over to the Dark Side of The Force.

    As for the mechanism of the FISA court itself, I think there needs to be a serious overhaul in how it conducts business.  It is far too secret, with way too little oversight or accountability.  We know the Democrat-controlled House won’t take any steps to remedy this, but I doubt a Republican-controlled House would either . . .

    • #5
  6. DonG Coolidge
    DonG
    @DonG

    WillowSpring:

     

    Also, as Chief Justice, Roberts is in charge of the FISA court. Where is he?

    Roberts is in charge (of the committee) that oversees all federal courts.  He has completely failed to protect the integrity of the federal court system.  He should be impeached, but Congress doesn’t have the stones for that.

    • #6
  7. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    I wonder if there is an actual date where our government stopped being afraid of us. 

    • #7
  8. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Roberts is AWOL, the court lets the warrants stand, the juges hold no one accountable in contempt even if the behavior is categorically contemptuous, and McConnell and Ryan push renewal through.

    How much negligence or incompetence can take place in such a small space without there being some sort of superseding agreement?

    • #8
  9. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    The Supreme Court, the Congress, and the Executive branch, all three branches of government, all seem to think this is fine.  This is checks-and-balances at its very best.

    • #9
  10. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Probably the only coup attempt in American history and no one is upset with it.

    I always disagree with using the word “broken” to describe something other than a toaster, but in this case I’m tempted.

    Nonetheless, this still isn’t broken government, it looks more like the Mother Ship can be seen uncloaked hovering over the Virginia swamplands.

    • #10
  11. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    DonG (View Comment):

    WillowSpring:

     

    Also, as Chief Justice, Roberts is in charge of the FISA court. Where is he?

    Roberts is in charge (of the committee) that oversees all federal courts. He has completely failed to protect the integrity of the federal court system. He should be impeached, but Congress doesn’t have the stones for that.

    One person oversight is unacceptable.  Congress and the President need to step in and put in more checks and balances to the FISA court.

    • #11
  12. Fred Cole Inactive
    Fred Cole
    @FredCole

    WillowSpring:

    Why have we not heard anything of any repercussions?

    Also, as Chief Justice, Roberts is in charge of the FISA court. Where is he?

    My recollection (please correct me if I’m wrong), is that just when the FISA court law was up for renewal, the abuse started becoming clear. Ryan and McConnell pushed through the renewal very quickly. Why the rush?

    Wow, it’s almost as if the people in the know, who have a more complete picture of things, don’t think the FISA court was defrauded and that the public narrative that Trump, et al., push isn’t the whole story.

    Look, if the actual truth of the matter ever comes out, it’ll be at least 20 years from now.  In the meantime, you can draw some inferences from their behavior.  Either all these people are part of the grand conspiracy (which seems inconsistent with their other actions) or maybe the “FISA was defrauded” narrative is inaccurate.

    We just don’t know.  We’re not allowed to know.  Which is one of the major downsides when you have secret courts issuing secret rulings about secret laws. 

    But then again, secret secret courts issuing secret rulings about secret laws is antithetical to the idea of a republic.

    • #12
  13. WillowSpring Member
    WillowSpring
    @WillowSpring

    Fred Cole (View Comment):
    In the meantime, you can draw some inferences from their behavior. Either all these people are part of the grand conspiracy (which seems inconsistent with their other actions) or maybe the “FISA was defrauded” narrative is inaccurate.

    I am not sure where you are going with “inferences from their behavior”.  This is slightly beyond the limited topic of the FISA applications, but here are some of the  results from “behavior” of some of the high-ups in the FBI and DOJ:

    Fired

    • McCabe (also under investigation)
    • Comey (also under investigation)
    • Yates
    • Strzok (also under investigation)

    Demoted

    • Ohr (also under investigation)

    Resigned

    • Carlin
    • Baker
    • Rybicki
    • Page
    • Kortan (Assistant Director for Public Affairs)
    • McCord

    Of course, as with many large organizations, there is a gray area between “fired” and “retired”.  Many of these are mentioned in the Strzok/Page texts in ways that make me not put a lot of faith in their behavior.

    What “other actions” should I take into account?

     

     

    • #13
  14. Fred Cole Inactive
    Fred Cole
    @FredCole

    WillowSpring (View Comment):
    What “other actions” should I take into account?

    I was referring to the actions you yourself mentioned in the OP.

    WillowSpring:

    Why have we not heard anything of any repercussions?

    Also, as Chief Justice, Roberts is in charge of the FISA court. Where is he?

    My recollection (please correct me if I’m wrong), is that just when the FISA court law was up for renewal, the abuse started becoming clear. Ryan and McConnell pushed through the renewal very quickly. Why the rush?

    No reaction from Roberts.  Ryan and McConnell pushed through the FISA renewal.  

    As I said in my comment:

    Either all these people are part of the grand conspiracy (which seems inconsistent with their other actions) or maybe the “FISA was defrauded” narrative is inaccurate.

     

    • #14
  15. EDISONPARKS Member
    EDISONPARKS
    @user_54742

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    WillowSpring:

    Why have we not heard anything of any repercussions?

    Also, as Chief Justice, Roberts is in charge of the FISA court. Where is he?

    My recollection (please correct me if I’m wrong), is that just when the FISA court law was up for renewal, the abuse started becoming clear. Ryan and McConnell pushed through the renewal very quickly. Why the rush?

    Wow, it’s almost as if the people in the know, who have a more complete picture of things, don’t think the FISA court was defrauded and that the public narrative that Trump, et al., push isn’t the whole story.

    Look, if the actual truth of the matter ever comes out, it’ll be at least 20 years from now. In the meantime, you can draw some inferences from their behavior. Either all these people are part of the grand conspiracy (which seems inconsistent with their other actions) or maybe the “FISA was defrauded” narrative is inaccurate.

    We just don’t know. We’re not allowed to know. Which is one of the major downsides when you have secret courts issuing secret rulings about secret laws.

    But then again, secret secret courts issuing secret rulings about secret laws is antithetical to the idea of a republic.

    Nothing to see here folks, stop asking questions, everything is fine, we have our best men on it … or the ones who have not been fired or “retired early”,  which is pretty much everyone now that I think of it…

    Go back to sleep sheeple,, it’s just a bad dream …..

    • #15
  16. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler
    @Skyler

    Flicker (View Comment):

    My recollection (please correct me if I’m wrong), is that just when the FISA court law was up for renewal, the abuse started becoming clear. Ryan and McConnell pushed through the renewal very quickly. Why the rush?

    All of the revelations about the FBI and Justice department has taught me that I can’t be cynical enough.

    Our government no longer has checks and balances.  It has a cabal.  The three branches of the cabal, the legislative, executive, and judicial are dedicated to the proposition that the states have no say in anything, and the people are beneath contempt.

    • #16
  17. Hank Rhody, Meddling Cowpoke Contributor
    Hank Rhody, Meddling Cowpoke
    @HankRhody

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    WillowSpring:

    Why have we not heard anything of any repercussions?

    Also, as Chief Justice, Roberts is in charge of the FISA court. Where is he?

    My recollection (please correct me if I’m wrong), is that just when the FISA court law was up for renewal, the abuse started becoming clear. Ryan and McConnell pushed through the renewal very quickly. Why the rush?

    Wow, it’s almost as if the people in the know, who have a more complete picture of things, don’t think the FISA court was defrauded and that the public narrative that Trump, et al., push isn’t the whole story.

    Look, if the actual truth of the matter ever comes out, it’ll be at least 20 years from now. In the meantime, you can draw some inferences from their behavior. Either all these people are part of the grand conspiracy (which seems inconsistent with their other actions) or maybe the “FISA was defrauded” narrative is inaccurate.

    We just don’t know. We’re not allowed to know. Which is one of the major downsides when you have secret courts issuing secret rulings about secret laws.

    But then again, secret secret courts issuing secret rulings about secret laws is antithetical to the idea of a republic.

    You’re one of them ‘trust the government’ libertarians, ain’t ya?

    There’s a third option between conspiracy and “there’s some grand exonerating evidence we just don’t know about yet.” It’s the same sort of pseudo-conspiracy that’s stifled my promising NFL career. Each of the teams have individually judged that I can’t play the game for crap and have denied my million dollar salary demands. Either they’re all acting in their own best interests or there’s a grand conspiracy to grind me personally down.

    In the case of Trump, covering everything from the Hillary Emails to the Steele Dossier to what have you I’ve yet to see any sort of evidence to justify the steps we know they’ve taken. Sooner or later they’re going to have to let facts be submitted to a candid world; otherwise I don’t think we’ll have any choice but to consider them as attempting to pin crimes on a man they personally dislike.

    • #17
  18. Danny Alexander Member
    Danny Alexander
    @DannyAlexander

    Any non-polemical, fact-rich takes here on the supposed changes introduced (or at least recommended) for FISA by FISC judge Rosemary Collyer in (I think) Spring 2016, in the wake of abuse investigations/revelations led by and reported on by then-NSC chief Admiral Mike Rogers?  Any reliability/plausibility to the accounts concerning all this that have been written up by “Sundance” on his CTH/Conservative Treehouse site?

    • #18
  19. Fred Cole Inactive
    Fred Cole
    @FredCole

    Hank Rhody, Meddling Cowpoke (View Comment):
    You’re one of them ‘trust the government’ libertarians, ain’t ya?

    Not so much, no.  I am very much not trusting of the government.  That’s why I don’t think we should have secret courts making secret rulings about secret laws.

    I’m just skeptical of a self-serving witch hunt/deep state conspiracy narrative promoted by a habitual liar and disseminated by sycophantic supporters and media.

     

    • #19
  20. Hank Rhody, Meddling Cowpoke Contributor
    Hank Rhody, Meddling Cowpoke
    @HankRhody

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Hank Rhody, Meddling Cowpoke (View Comment):
    You’re one of them ‘trust the government’ libertarians, ain’t ya?

    Not so much, no. I am very much not trusting of the government. That’s why I don’t think we should have secret courts making secret rulings about secret laws.

    I’m just skeptical of a self-serving witch hunt/deep state conspiracy narrative promoted by a habitual liar and disseminated by sycophantic supporters and media.

    Which is it then? Do you trust secret courts making secret rulings on habitual liars?

    • #20
  21. Fred Cole Inactive
    Fred Cole
    @FredCole

    Hank Rhody, Meddling Cowpoke (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Hank Rhody, Meddling Cowpoke (View Comment):
    You’re one of them ‘trust the government’ libertarians, ain’t ya?

    Not so much, no. I am very much not trusting of the government. That’s why I don’t think we should have secret courts making secret rulings about secret laws.

    I’m just skeptical of a self-serving witch hunt/deep state conspiracy narrative promoted by a habitual liar and disseminated by sycophantic supporters and media.

    Which is it then? Do you trust secret courts making secret rulings on habitual liars?

    Neither.

    • #21
  22. Robert E. Lee Member
    Robert E. Lee
    @RobertELee

    Secret laws, secret courts, will ALWAYS be abused.

    • #22
  23. Hank Rhody, Meddling Cowpoke Contributor
    Hank Rhody, Meddling Cowpoke
    @HankRhody

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Hank Rhody, Meddling Cowpoke (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Hank Rhody, Meddling Cowpoke (View Comment):
    You’re one of them ‘trust the government’ libertarians, ain’t ya?

    Not so much, no. I am very much not trusting of the government. That’s why I don’t think we should have secret courts making secret rulings about secret laws.

    I’m just skeptical of a self-serving witch hunt/deep state conspiracy narrative promoted by a habitual liar and disseminated by sycophantic supporters and media.

    Which is it then? Do you trust secret courts making secret rulings on habitual liars?

    Neither.

    Neither? As in you don’t believe either position you just espoused?

    As far as I understand you, you don’t trust Trump at all, and you think that the secret courts et al have some sort of super-incriminating evidence which gives them good reason to behave like the traitorous bastards we’ve been seeing.

    What it looks like to me is happening is that the FBI decides “no way this guy isn’t dirty in some way” and start digging into him. And that Trump, despite being a habitual liar, turns out not to have done anything they can nail him on. Which means they’ve got no post hoc justification for all the things they were doing to nail him.

    Now, assuming Trump has sold the country out to the Russians or something then maybe all these cloak-and-dagger dealings are necessary to preserve the country. But before I’m going to believe that I’m going to need to see the evidence, and some pretty darn good evidence at that.

    The way I understand you is that you’re willing to give these secret courts the benefit of the doubt because…

    • #23
  24. Flicker Coolidge
    Flicker
    @Flicker

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Flicker (View Comment):

    My recollection (please correct me if I’m wrong), is that just when the FISA court law was up for renewal, the abuse started becoming clear. Ryan and McConnell pushed through the renewal very quickly. Why the rush?

    All of the revelations about the FBI and Justice department has taught me that I can’t be cynical enough.

    Our government no longer has checks and balances. It has a cabal. The three branches of the cabal, the legislative, executive, and judicial are dedicated to the proposition that the states have no say in anything, and the people are beneath contempt.

    I didn’t write that comment.  But I agree with what you wrote.

    • #24
  25. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Has anyone noticed the way the eyes in @fredcole‘s avatar kind of follow you around the room? 

    • #25
  26. Fred Cole Inactive
    Fred Cole
    @FredCole

    Hank Rhody, Meddling Cowpoke (View Comment):
    As far as I understand you, you don’t trust Trump at all, and you think that the secret courts et al have some sort of super-incriminating evidence which gives them good reason to behave like the traitorous bastards we’ve been seeing.

    As I said above, I’m very skeptical of the self-serving witch hunt/deep state conspiracy narrative promoted by a habitual liar and disseminated by sycophantic supporters and media.

    I also think that those-in-the-know might have additional information that the rest of us don’t have.  And I don’t think the FISA-was-lied-to! narrative is accurate as its portrayed in the Trump sycophant media.

    • #26
  27. Skyler Coolidge
    Skyler
    @Skyler

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Hank Rhody, Meddling Cowpoke (View Comment):
    As far as I understand you, you don’t trust Trump at all, and you think that the secret courts et al have some sort of super-incriminating evidence which gives them good reason to behave like the traitorous bastards we’ve been seeing.

    As I said above, I’m very skeptical of the self-serving witch hunt/deep state conspiracy narrative promoted by a habitual liar and disseminated by sycophantic supporters and media.

    I also think that those-in-the-know might have additional information that the rest of us don’t have. And I don’t think the FISA-was-lied-to! narrative is accurate as its portrayed in the Trump sycophant media.

    Habitual liar?  We’re talking about a politician.  They all lie.  I’m not sure how Trump lies more than any other.  

    • #27
  28. Fred Cole Inactive
    Fred Cole
    @FredCole

    Skyler (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Hank Rhody, Meddling Cowpoke (View Comment):
    As far as I understand you, you don’t trust Trump at all, and you think that the secret courts et al have some sort of super-incriminating evidence which gives them good reason to behave like the traitorous bastards we’ve been seeing.

    As I said above, I’m very skeptical of the self-serving witch hunt/deep state conspiracy narrative promoted by a habitual liar and disseminated by sycophantic supporters and media.

    I also think that those-in-the-know might have additional information that the rest of us don’t have. And I don’t think the FISA-was-lied-to! narrative is accurate as its portrayed in the Trump sycophant media.

    Habitual liar? We’re talking about a politician. They all lie. I’m not sure how Trump lies more than any other.

    Then with all due respect, you need to open your damn eyes. 

    It’s not even a matter of degrees. It’s orders of magnitude with Trump. 

    • #28
  29. Hank Rhody, Meddling Cowpoke Contributor
    Hank Rhody, Meddling Cowpoke
    @HankRhody

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Hank Rhody, Meddling Cowpoke (View Comment):
    As far as I understand you, you don’t trust Trump at all, and you think that the secret courts et al have some sort of super-incriminating evidence which gives them good reason to behave like the traitorous bastards we’ve been seeing.

    As I said above, I’m very skeptical of the self-serving witch hunt/deep state conspiracy narrative promoted by a habitual liar and disseminated by sycophantic supporters and media.

    I also think that those-in-the-know might have additional information that the rest of us don’t have. And I don’t think the FISA-was-lied-to! narrative is accurate as its portrayed in the Trump sycophant media.

    Yeah, see, that’s what I don’t get. “Trump lies” doesn’t therefore imply that anyone saying anything bad about him is telling the truth. Can you explain to me how the way you’re excusing any kind of malfesance on the part of the government trying to get Trump means you aren’t trusting the government?

    The difference between you and I is that sooner or later I’m going to need to see that evidence.

    • #29
  30. EDISONPARKS Member
    EDISONPARKS
    @user_54742

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Hank Rhody, Meddling Cowpoke (View Comment):
    As far as I understand you, you don’t trust Trump at all, and you think that the secret courts et al have some sort of super-incriminating evidence which gives them good reason to behave like the traitorous bastards we’ve been seeing.

    As I said above, I’m very skeptical of the self-serving witch hunt/deep state conspiracy narrative promoted by a habitual liar and disseminated by sycophantic supporters and media.

    I also think that those-in-the-know might have additional information that the rest of us don’t have. And I don’t think the FISA-was-lied-to! narrative is accurate as its portrayed in the Trump sycophant media.

    It is possible that Trump is “a habitual liar” and the “witch hunt/deep state conspiracy narrative” is “promoted by  sycophantic supporters and media”  ….. AND ….. “the FISA-was-lied-to” by the upper management of the DOJ/FBI/IC.

    They are not mutually exclusive events, and even if you are a supporter and media of Trump(or even if you were not) and sincerely believed “the FISA-was-lied-to”,  you would be derelict in your role if you did not promote this particular “witch hunt/deep state conspiracy narrative”.

    • #30
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