Book Review: Surprised by Christ

 

How does a Hasidic Jew, the son, and grandson of rabbis, become an Orthodox Christian? The journey is a fascinating one, as A. James Bernstein relates in a book that is one part personal autobiography, and the other part his spiritual journey from the Judaism of his youth through what he describes as the return to the fulfillment of Judaism’s promise in the Orthodox Church. In his tale, Father Bernstein takes readers from his initial discovery of Christianity as a young man, through his years as an Evangelical street preacher in Berkley, and back to Israel both past and present as he seeks to re-find the ancient Jewish connection to Christianity.

Bernstein begins with a vivid recollection of when a drunk anti-semite threw a brick through his father’s storefront in the middle of the night in Queens, NY. Though James was born in the US during World War II, his parents had wed in the early 1930s, and had fled Jerusalem (where his father was from) for the US (his mother was from Pittsburgh) out of fear that the Muslim Mufti of the region would ally with the Nazis. The horrors of the war and the revelations of the Holocaust broke much of his father’s faith, and though trained as a Rabbi in his youth, in America he instead chose to run a candy store.

Bernstein describes much of growing up in New York City in the 1950s and ’60s as nearly idyllic, the brick-throwing aside, but he had a hunger for spiritual knowledge that led him into conversations with many of the other ethnic groups around him, and those conversations led him to read (in secret) the Christian Bible. What he found, and moreover whom he found he compared in detail to everything he had learned as a Jew, and in time, and at the cost of his relationship with his parents, he converted to Christianity. But of what sort?

To a convert, the variety of Christian denominations and their practices are bewildering, and Bernstein struggled at first to find an authentic expression, eventually finding his way into an Evangelical group in college in the late 1960s. From the time of his conversion, he was led to actively evangelize, whether by speaking, doing street theater performances, or distributing flyers. In that time he encountered other Jewish converts, including Moishe Rosen, who recruited him into what became Jews for Jesus (Bernstein takes some credit for coining the group’s name).

Bernstein narrates a rather active and enthusiastic life through this time as he and Rosen relocated to California and then began street preaching and theater on the Berkley campus, all against the backdrop of the other tumults of the time. At all times he followed where his faith pointed, but time and again his narrative returns to his fundamental concern: how does he maintain his Jewish identity as a Christian? As his preaching continued, and he found himself elevated to become a pastor at his church, he describes a related and growing concern too: if the early Christians were all Jews, where is Judaism within Christianity, and are there still Jewish Christians, living descendants of those early believers, to be found in the world (not just recent converts like himself)?

The story of his life is throughout intermingled with his unfolding of the Christian message itself. Each step in his discovery is described both in terms of his autobiography and in theological terms. Along the way, he narrates his own spiritual and familial struggles, his travels back to Israel, and movements and organizations he was involved in along the way. But his goal is always clear: to tell how he did, at last, find the living out of ancient Judaism within the Orthodox Christian Church, and how he, at last, became a priest therein.

As an adult convert to Christianity myself, I found his own struggles with modern expressions of Christianity rather familiar. Like him, I never really felt I fit in well with Evangelicalism, and I rather admired his persistence and intellectual curiosity to follow where history and his faith pointed. But the book is also fascinating in its explorations of the continuation of many Jewish beliefs, scriptural interpretations, and practices that are still alive within the Orthodox church. Rev. Bernstein gave up much by following Jesus but in the process, he also reconnected with the earliest followers, Jews all, whose descendants truly are still alive in the same lands they’ve always dwelt in.

The book was originally published in 2008 by what was then known as Conciliar Press, which is now known as Ancient Faith Publishing, and is available as a paperback, an e-book, and an audiobook. The unabridged audiobook, narrated by Father Bernstein himself, was just made available through Audible.com and runs about 16 hours.

The only criticism I would make of the audiobook format is that the author (likely at the behest of the audio producer) reads the book a bit slowly and with deliberation. This gives the impression of a less lively speaker than he is in real life. I’ve linked at the bottom of this post to a Youtube video of him giving a talk a few years ago, and he has been featured on a number of podcasts as well, so you can see that he is quite dynamic. But that is a minor quibble, and it is wonderful to hear Rev. Bernstein unfold his life and theology in his own voice and New York cadence.

In full disclosure, I was given a free copy of the audiobook by Ancient Faith Publishing in return for reviewing it.

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  1. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Stina (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Catholics are, and Mormons aren’t. There are criteria for making these designations. One or two–like defining a religion by the authorities it recognizes–may suggest a different answer. I’m open to arguments that Catholics are a different religion from Reformation Christians.

    What’s the criterion for what makes a practicing Jew?

    Yeah. For the most part, it’s pretty universal that anyone who believes the Nicene Creed (or Apostles Creed) (or the statements contained therein as the necessary elements of faith) is a Christian, regardless of schism partition.

    If Jewish atheists are still Jews, then belief is not the necessary element of belonging. How is it that a Christian jew can’t be Jewish, but an atheist jew can?

    I believe there was a distinction in earlier posts (Susan Quinn, perhaps) between ethnic and practicing Jews.  I don’t think anyone disputes that Jewish Christians can be ethnic Jews, just like atheist Jews can.

    • #91
  2. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    I don’t think anyone disputes that Jewish Christians can be ethnic Jews, just like atheist Jews can.

    But even Susan admits in a comment here that believing Jews can be all over the place, some believing that a messiah is promised and others not. The Jews of the sanhedrin didn’t agree, either – some believing in eternal life and others not. Some believing the existence of the temple was necessary for redemption and others not. Jews have a pretty solid history of disagreeing with each other and debate.

    It seems the only thing that pushes christian Jews out is that they believe a Jewish carpenter was messiah… so they should be forced to deny their Jewish roots and take on a gentile monicker?

    • #92
  3. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Stina (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    I don’t think anyone disputes that Jewish Christians can be ethnic Jews, just like atheist Jews can.

    But even Susan admits in a comment here that believing Jews can be all over the place, some believing that a messiah is promised and others not. The Jews of the sanhedrin didn’t agree, either – some believing in eternal life and others not. Some believing the existence of the temple was necessary for redemption and others not. Jews have a pretty solid history of disagreeing with each other and debate.

    It seems the only thing that pushes christian Jews out is that they believe a Jewish carpenter was messiah… so they should be forced to deny their Jewish roots and take on a gentile monicker?

    This looks to me like a good case that, whatever the criterion for a practicing Jew actually is, it probably is not any particular belief that Jewish Christians lack.

    But I’m not sure what Susan et al think the criterion is.

    • #93
  4. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    I don’t think anyone disputes that Jewish Christians can be ethnic Jews, just like atheist Jews can.

    But even Susan admits in a comment here that believing Jews can be all over the place, some believing that a messiah is promised and others not. The Jews of the sanhedrin didn’t agree, either – some believing in eternal life and others not. Some believing the existence of the temple was necessary for redemption and others not. Jews have a pretty solid history of disagreeing with each other and debate.

    It seems the only thing that pushes christian Jews out is that they believe a Jewish carpenter was messiah… so they should be forced to deny their Jewish roots and take on a gentile monicker?

    This looks to me like a good case that, whatever the criterion for a practicing Jew actually is, it probably is not any particular belief that Jewish Christians lack.

    But I’m not sure what Susan et al think the criterion is.

    I am not an expert by any stretch, but I believe I am not a “practicing Jew,” because I do not practice the Orthodoxy, meaning I don’t follow all the commandments (including everything from dietary laws, clothes that I wear, or observe all the holidays). I do observe the Sabbath, but not strictly (I turn light switches on and off, for example). But I have deep respect for those who are practicing Jews, i.e., observe the commandments, believe the messiah is yet to come,  and believe the Torah comes from G-d. Different Jews would have different attitudes about me, depending on the type of practicing Jew; there are many different ways to practice. Some would reject me due to my lack of orthodoxy; many (especially those who’ve communicated with me on Ricochet) spend their energy on encouraging me, not judging me. The differences are less about the orthodoxy and more about how they are carried out.

    Stina (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    I don’t think anyone disputes that Jewish Christians can be ethnic Jews, just like atheist Jews can.

    But even Susan admits in a comment here that believing Jews can be all over the place, some believing that a messiah is promised and others not. The Jews of the sanhedrin didn’t agree, either – some believing in eternal life and others not. Some believing the existence of the temple was necessary for redemption and others not. Jews have a pretty solid history of disagreeing with each other and debate.

    It seems the only thing that pushes christian Jews out is that they believe a Jewish carpenter was messiah… so they should be forced to deny their Jewish roots and take on a gentile monicker?

    This not all quite accurate. What is making this all confusing is that some who are born Jews only claim their ethnicity, not the religion. Those are the ones most likely who don’t believe in or care about a Messiah. We do all disagree on many things, because Judaism doesn’t feel it’s important that everyone follow exactly the same system. In fact, we are encouraged to question and ask questions, unlike some religions. If you are looking for consensus, don’t look here.

    I’m not forcing anyone to deny anything. I’m not pushing anyone out, and no Jew is pushing anyone out of anything. We are entitled, however, to disagree with the labels that people choose to adopt. And I think the huge majority of Jews don’t think the messiah has come.

    I’m not telling anyone what to call anyone, and I feel I’m entitled to accept certain definitions and not others. And you can call me anything you want–I don’t mind. How I practice Judaism as a semi-observant Jew is between me and G-d.

    • #94
  5. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):
    I don’t think anyone disputes that Jewish Christians can be ethnic Jews, just like atheist Jews can.

    But even Susan admits in a comment here that believing Jews can be all over the place, some believing that a messiah is promised and others not. The Jews of the sanhedrin didn’t agree, either – some believing in eternal life and others not. Some believing the existence of the temple was necessary for redemption and others not. Jews have a pretty solid history of disagreeing with each other and debate.

    It seems the only thing that pushes christian Jews out is that they believe a Jewish carpenter was messiah… so they should be forced to deny their Jewish roots and take on a gentile monicker?

    This looks to me like a good case that, whatever the criterion for a practicing Jew actually is, it probably is not any particular belief that Jewish Christians lack.

    But I’m not sure what Susan et al think the criterion is.

    I am not an expert by any stretch, but I believe I am not a “practicing Jew,” because I do not practice the Orthodoxy, meaning I don’t follow all the commandments (including everything from dietary laws, clothes that I wear, or observe all the holidays). I do observe the Sabbath, but not strictly (I turn light switches on and off, for example). But I have deep respect for those who are practicing Jews, i.e., observe the commandments, believe the messiah is yet to come, and believe the Torah comes from G-d. Different Jews would have different attitudes about me, depending on the type of practicing Jew; there are many different ways to practice. . . .

    This suggests three criteria for practicing Jews:
    1. observing the commandments,
    2. believing the Messiah is yet to come,
    and 3. believing the Torah comes from G-d.

    The third one does describe Christians.

    The second one cannot be a necessary condition being a practicing Jew–unless Jews are supposed to stop being Jews when the Messiah does come.

    And is there some reason a Jewish Christian would not be able to observe the commandments?

    • #95
  6. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    This suggests three criteria for practicing Jews:
    1. observing the commandments,
    2. believing the Messiah is yet to come,
    and 3. believing the Torah comes from G-d.

    The third one does describe Christians.

    The second one cannot be a necessary condition being a practicing Jew–unless Jews are supposed to stop being Jews when the Messiah does come.

    And is there some reason a Jewish Christian would not be able to observe the commandments?

    Why would we stop being Jews? Once the Messiah comes, the whole world will be transformed. I can’t tell you what that means, but Jews believe it hasn’t happened. Since I’m not a practicing Jew, there may be many more requirements–these are just the big ones. I don’t think Jews care who follows the commandments. But here are 633 of them (I believe) so I don’t think a Christian would observe them voluntarily! Also, doing all these things without being born Jewish or converting to Judaism is just an exercise.

    • #96
  7. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    This suggests three criteria for practicing Jews:
    1. observing the commandments,
    2. believing the Messiah is yet to come,
    and 3. believing the Torah comes from G-d.

    The third one does describe Christians.

    The second one cannot be a necessary condition being a practicing Jew–unless Jews are supposed to stop being Jews when the Messiah does come.

    And is there some reason a Jewish Christian would not be able to observe the commandments?

    Why would we stop being Jews?

    Indeed.

    So what is the criterion for being a practicing Jew, and is there some reason we should think it excludes Jewish Christians?

    • #97
  8. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    This suggests three criteria for practicing Jews:
    1. observing the commandments,
    2. believing the Messiah is yet to come,
    and 3. believing the Torah comes from G-d.

    The third one does describe Christians.

    The second one cannot be a necessary condition being a practicing Jew–unless Jews are supposed to stop being Jews when the Messiah does come.

    And is there some reason a Jewish Christian would not be able to observe the commandments?

    Why would we stop being Jews?

    Indeed.

    So what is the criterion for being a practicing Jew, and is there some reason we should think it excludes Jewish Christians?

    St. A, I think I’ve covered this and this will be my last comment on it. It’s simple: if they are practicing and accepting Christianity, they’re not practicing Jews. I just don’t have the background or depth to debate the topic fairly and effectively.

    • #98
  9. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    This suggests three criteria for practicing Jews:
    1. observing the commandments,
    2. believing the Messiah is yet to come,
    and 3. believing the Torah comes from G-d.

    The third one does describe Christians.

    The second one cannot be a necessary condition being a practicing Jew–unless Jews are supposed to stop being Jews when the Messiah does come.

    And is there some reason a Jewish Christian would not be able to observe the commandments?

    Why would we stop being Jews?

    Indeed.

    So what is the criterion for being a practicing Jew, and is there some reason we should think it excludes Jewish Christians?

    St. A, I think I’ve covered this and this will be my last comment on it. It’s simple: if they are practicing and accepting Christianity, they’re not practicing Jews. I just don’t have the background or depth to debate the topic fairly and effectively.

    Then it’s circular reasoning: Your evidence that practicing Jews can’t be Christians is that practicing Jews can’t be Christians.

    • #99
  10. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Manny (View Comment):

    That’s right, Christianity is an outgrowth of Judaism. We didn’t reject the Old Testament. We added an addition to it. The Old Testament is the word of God, and we Christians see Christ as the Word of God.

    Yes.

    Islam is a completely different matter. . . .

    Maybe so. But let’s keep in mind that it does recognize Moosa, Daood, and Isa as holy messengers of G-d and prophets who gave us Holy Books. Idolatry is forbidden, polytheism is forbidden, and so on. There’s some common theology.

    I’m not sure how accurate they regard the Old Testament figures but if it’s anything like how Isa is supposed to be Christ, it’s a joke. There are no similarities.

    . . .

    I wouldn’t put much stock in the name. Hebrew–>Greek–>Syrian–>Arabic isn’t much worse than Hebrew–>Greek–>Latin–>English. I’d rank Isa as closer to Iehsous than the “Jeezus” of north America.

    Interestingly, that story from the Gnostic sources is about as strong a case for Jesus’ divinity as you could ask for: He makes clay live.

    And he’s still a virgin-born holy prophet who gives us the Word of G-d.

    But having noted that–yes, not that many similarities; and many differences.

    Can you tell me what similarities? A short list would be nice.

    I really wasn’t going for more than just the ones I’d mentioned.

    OK.  Perhaps a discussion for another day.  It’s going off topic from the OP anyway.

    • #100
  11. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    The incompatibilities between Judaism and Christianity are not just about Jesus, of course. The two faiths diverge enormously, especially on the central issue of trying to follow G-d’s commandments as stated in the Torah. For Jews, doing is important. Christianity negated all those commandments, one way or another. Orthodox Jewry believes that an eternal law cannot be negated, and anyone who claims to negate them is, by that very act, a false prophet. The Torah itself warns us about such people!

    And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken perversion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.(Deut. 13:6)

    G-d commanded a path. Someone who says that path is no longer relevant is not proposing Judaism as defined by the Torah.

    • #101
  12. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Come on, folks!

    Let people self-identify however they like. You can call yourself a Messianic Jew, a Christian Jew, or a panda bear Jew. You can make up silly pronouns.  You can decide that you are really a potted plant for all I care.

    All fine. As long as I am not compelled to accept or use those definitions, we are cool. I can call you silly (or ignorant or even “bless your heart”) and you can call me a close-minded toxically-masculine dinosaur.  Free speech offends.

    • #102
  13. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    This suggests three criteria for practicing Jews:
    1. observing the commandments,
    2. believing the Messiah is yet to come,
    and 3. believing the Torah comes from G-d.

    The third one does describe Christians.

    The second one cannot be a necessary condition being a practicing Jew–unless Jews are supposed to stop being Jews when the Messiah does come.

    And is there some reason a Jewish Christian would not be able to observe the commandments?

    Why would we stop being Jews?

    Indeed.

    So what is the criterion for being a practicing Jew, and is there some reason we should think it excludes Jewish Christians?

    St. A, I think I’ve covered this and this will be my last comment on it. It’s simple: if they are practicing and accepting Christianity, they’re not practicing Jews. I just don’t have the background or depth to debate the topic fairly and effectively.

    Then it’s circular reasoning: Your evidence that practicing Jews can’t be Christians is that practicing Jews can’t be Christians.

    No, it’s not circular. There’s a degree of ethnicity and insularity, similar to Mormons, the Amish, and American Indians. This is not true of Catholics or Muslims, or any other multi-ethnic religion, especially religions of conquest.

    By contrast, Jews, many people have noted, are almost unique in not seeking converts. It’s extremely difficult to become a Jew, and a good part of the reason is that the culture of Judaism is based on being a shared historical experience. They don’t let many in and do it only reluctantly, they know who’s there, and if you leave the group, fine–no one will stop you. But if you leave and claim you’re still a member, few others will believe you. 

    There’s a guy who dresses up like a rabbi and starts speaking Hebrew at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark. It didn’t work out well for him, BTW. Nobody here would claim that merely saying the words and wearing the robes makes you part of a religion, least of all the scholarly Saint Augustine, but since the Jews themselves regard belief in Christ as a deal-breaker, for me that settles it as far as what they think. 

    • #103
  14. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Indeed.

    So what is the criterion for being a practicing Jew, and is there some reason we should think it excludes Jewish Christians?

    St. A, I think I’ve covered this and this will be my last comment on it. It’s simple: if they are practicing and accepting Christianity, they’re not practicing Jews. I just don’t have the background or depth to debate the topic fairly and effectively.

    Then it’s circular reasoning: Your evidence that practicing Jews can’t be Christians is that practicing Jews can’t be Christians.

    No, it’s not circular.

    So what premise did she use that I didn’t see?

    Or are you just saying there’s a non-circular case to be made?  Sure.  I’m not objecting to that.  To the contrary, I’m asking to see it!

    . . .

    . . . but since the Jews themselves regard belief in Christ as a deal-breaker, for me that settles it as far as what they think.

    Yes.  There we go!

    I was thinking you had suggested this line of reasoning earlier.  Your case appears to be that practicing Judaism is a community, and that a community can define its own borders, and this is how they define them.

    That’s a good case.  I don’t have any particular problem with it.  The worst I can say about it is that I can think of strategies for arguing to the contrary, and I am not certain those arguments would not be stronger.

    • #104
  15. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Indeed.

    So what is the criterion for being a practicing Jew, and is there some reason we should think it excludes Jewish Christians?

    St. A, I think I’ve covered this and this will be my last comment on it. It’s simple: if they are practicing and accepting Christianity, they’re not practicing Jews. I just don’t have the background or depth to debate the topic fairly and effectively.

    Then it’s circular reasoning: Your evidence that practicing Jews can’t be Christians is that practicing Jews can’t be Christians.

    No, it’s not circular.

    So what premise did she use that I didn’t see?

    Or are you just saying there’s a non-circular case to be made? Sure. I’m not objecting to that. To the contrary, I’m asking to see it!

    . . .

    . . . but since the Jews themselves regard belief in Christ as a deal-breaker, for me that settles it as far as what they think.

    Yes. There we go!

    I was thinking you had suggested this line of reasoning earlier. Your case appears to be that practicing Judaism is a community, and that a community can define its own borders, and this is how they define them.

    That’s a good case. I don’t have any particular problem with it. The worst I can say about it is that I can think of strategies for arguing to the contrary, and I am not certain those arguments would not be stronger.

    That’s a reasonable summary of my position, and an honest assessment of its limitations. You’re right; I primarily see it as a community, not as a set of procedures and rituals that anyone could choose to follow. 

    • #105
  16. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    Stina (View Comment):

    Nanda Panjandrum (View Comment):
    “Jews for Christ” are…Wait for it…Christians;

    Maybe I’m a bit more willing to accept the distinction because as a gentile Christian, I don’t have the same underlying cultural heritage that ties to my faith the same way.

    In some ways, I’d consider myself a dog eating the scraps that the Master has left for me under the table while Christian Jews are the Master’s children. Or the prodigal son to the Oldest son.

    I don’t think they’d see me that way, but I think it matters more than you give it credit, even if we all end up in the same place a.la. Galatians.

    Well, Paul already gave us the vocabulary: Wild olive branches grafted into the cultivated olive tree (Israel). The worst problem over Christian history is that we then ignored what he says next “never forget that the root (Judaism/Torah/Tanakh-true Jews) is holding you up, you are not holding it up”. There is also the concept of adoption, which in the ancient world was even more adamant in the equivalence of biological and adopted children  than in the modern understanding.

    • #106
  17. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    Stina (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):
    Jewish people

    If it’s as a race/nation, them being Christian doesn’t change that. They are still Jewish. So extinction as a people isn’t relevant if you think Christians identifying as Jews is misguiding on who is actually a Jew.

    If it’s about the traditions of Judaism being extinguished, it’s more relevant, however “Messianic Jews” are more likely to uphold Jewish traditions than atheist Jews or simply Christians.

    Correct. All Messianic Jews I know keep kosher, keep Sabbath and observe the High Holy Days. The major reason for choosing the appellation is to maintain Jewish cultural and religious identity.  

    • #107
  18. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Stina (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):
    We should not be quick to claim Jews and Christians are not at odds, neither from the Jewish, nor from the Christian perspective.

    Why don’t I get to decide what they are called? (Rhetorical question).

    Rhetorical answer: Because you’re not Jewish.

    Messianic Jews believe they are upholding the traditions of Judaism by prophet and fulfillment. While the rest of Jews have a right to be frustrated by it, I do not think Christians should be deciding Messianic Jews should just call themselves “christian”.

    I’m not making any decisions for them. I’m just going by what the actual Jews say.

     

     

    Which Jews? I know Orthodox  who object to the term “Messianic Jew” and those who don’t. There’s both ends of the spectrum and everything in between, from what I have experienced and read. 

    • #108
  19. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Gary M

    Then it’s circular reasoning: Your evidence that practicing Jews can’t be Christians is that practicing Jews can’t be Christians.

    No, it’s not circular.

    . . . but since the Jews themselves regard belief in Christ as a deal-breaker, for me that settles it as far as what they think.

    Yes. There we go!

    I was thinking you had suggested this line of reasoning earlier. Your case appears to be that practicing Judaism is a community, and that a community can define its own borders, and this is how they define them.

    Again, it depends on which Jews you are talking about. There are Orthodox who do say that atheists are no longer Jews in any meaningful sense. And there are also those who are starting to say “No to Paul, maybe to Jesus”- e.g. Yechiel Eckstein. Or as Pinchas Lapide put it, “When Messiah comes, if it is in my lifetime, my first question to him will be ‘Have you been here before’?”

    • #109
  20. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    <deleted>

    • #110
  21. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    iWe (View Comment):
    The two faiths diverge enormously, especially on the central issue of trying to follow G-d’s commandments as stated in the Torah.

    I think the Jewish Christians did maintain Jewish law. There was a conflict on what to do with gentile Christians, Paul being the first to preach to gentiles. Should pagan converts to Christianity be beholden to the same laws as Jews? Paul’s argument is no.

    But what about the Jew whose parents did not follow Jewish law with their son while still raising him to believe as a Jew? Paul tells him to be circumcised.

    If I had the Jewish heritage, I’d keep practicing it, especially as I see much of it points to messiah. Even in more orthodox christianity, we adopt the repetition in order to remember. Passover, purim, tabernacles…  repeated to remember what God has done for them, right? But, again, we are not Jews and it isn’t necessary for us to be Jews to believe the this man we believe is the Jewish messiah died for us, too.

    • #111
  22. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    iWe (View Comment):

    The incompatibilities between Judaism and Christianity are not just about Jesus, of course. The two faiths diverge enormously, especially on the central issue of trying to follow G-d’s commandments as stated in the Torah. For Jews, doing is important. Christianity negated all those commandments, one way or another. Orthodox Jewry believes that an eternal law cannot be negated, and anyone who claims to negate them is, by that very act, a false prophet. The Torah itself warns us about such people!

    And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken perversion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.(Deut. 13:6)

    G-d commanded a path. Someone who says that path is no longer relevant is not proposing Judaism as defined by the Torah.

    Where is it written in the New Testament that the Torah is no longer a path to be followed for Jews?

    The New Testament does teach plainly that the Torah is the Word of G-d. And that doing is important.

    Continued:

    • #112
  23. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    The false prophet condemned to death in Deut. 13 calls us to follow other gods. This passage does not state that each commandment in the Torah is required for all people who follow G-d at all times.

    The Torah, in fact, states that G-d’s blessings through Abraham shall come to all the families of the earth. When that happens, are these families to follow every command given for temple/tabernacle sacrifice in the Promised Land–and the shaving regulations too?

    Stina # 111 is on the right track.  The New Testament teaches that Gentiles can follow G-d without becoming Jews.

    We don’t have a disagreement with the NT on that point, do we?  To the contrary, Jews often say that the Torah gives some moral rules for all people (as Prager says) or lays out a way of being active and creative humans in the world which is useful for all people (as one finds in your own best commentary on the Torah).  So the Torah does have a path for Gentiles; yet I’ve never heard from any Jew that Gentiles must follow each of the 613 rules! (Or whatever the number is.  I confess I Googled Maimonides to get that number; not the sort of thing I usually keep in my head; but I probably should.)

     

    • #113
  24. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):

    The incompatibilities between Judaism and Christianity are not just about Jesus, of course. The two faiths diverge enormously, especially on the central issue of trying to follow G-d’s commandments as stated in the Torah. For Jews, doing is important. Christianity negated all those commandments, one way or another. Orthodox Jewry believes that an eternal law cannot be negated, and anyone who claims to negate them is, by that very act, a false prophet. The Torah itself warns us about such people!

     

    Where is it written in the New Testament that the Torah is no longer a path to be followed for Jews?

    The New Testament does teach plainly that the Torah is the Word of G-d. And that doing is important.

     

    Indeed, he ends the Sermon on the Mount on that very note, having started with the Beatitudes and the warning “Do not think I have come to abolish he law and the prophets”. Matthew 7:21 and following (including a warning for charismatics like myself…don’t prize the wonders over the Lord of wonders): 

    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ 24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

    • #114
  25. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Auggie, you have taken a tangent. No orthodox Jew thinks non-Jews should follow any but the Noachide laws.

    • #115
  26. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    iWe (View Comment):

    Auggie, you have taken a tangent. No orthodox Jew thinks non-Jews should follow any but the Noachide laws.

    To the contrary, you are making for me precisely half of my point.  You said:

    iWe (View Comment):

    The two faiths diverge enormously, especially on the central issue of trying to follow G-d’s commandments as stated in the Torah. For Jews, doing is important. Christianity negated all those commandments, one way or another.

    Are you talking about what Christianity says about Jews or about what it says about Gentiles?  If what it says about Gentiles, then plainly you have just refuted yourself.

    If what it says about Jews, then I ask:

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Where is it written in the New Testament that the Torah is no longer a path to be followed for Jews?

    • #116
  27. Richard Harvester Inactive
    Richard Harvester
    @RichardHarvester

    I haven’t been thoroughly following this. But I’m going to be blunt and lay out my definition – you are free to use your own but don’t expect me to agree.

    First, because of a few historical issues, Jews have not recognized Christians using the term ‘Jewish’ because it is seen as an attempt to replace, supplant and ultimately eliminate Judaism. There’s a fair amount of history here and it ain’t happy history. We get our backs up about it. You can go ahead and use it, but don’t expect us to use it too. Whether you are culturally Jewish or practice Jewish law or believe in the Torah, if you bring the Jesus thing in we’ll just call you Christians.

    How do we draw the line? We do not believe the Messiah has come. We understand that the Messiah will bring a complete transformation of the world and worldwide peace as well as the return of our people and their acceptance of G-d with the Temple in Jerusalem being the centerpiece of worldwide worship of G-d.

    We haven’t seen it. You haven’t either.

    You can reject this, no skin off our backs, but it isn’t accepted Jewish belief.

    Of course, Jesus was not the only Messiah we’ve rejected on this basis. There have been MANY. Shimon bar Kochba, Moshe of Crete, Abu Isa, Shabtai Tzvi, and even Menachem Shneerson. Those who have followed these people – after their deaths – have been rejected by Judaism. The process is still ongoing for Chabadnics  who still adhere to their beliefs in the Rebbe.

    One after another, Jews are willing to believe in a Messiah – until he dies with his mission completely unfulfilled. Then, out he goes and any followers who hold on go out with him. Sabbatians (not the kind who never claimed to be Jewish) are not accepted as Jews.

    As an aside, we DO accept Jews who have not adopted Christian belief – even if they practice none of the laws and reject the Torah. Our people have a history of rebellion (see Exhibit A, Five Books of Moses). But we are also stiff-necked; we don’t like people who expect to replace us. We aren’t planning on going anywhere.

    Go ahead and call yourself Jewish. But don’t expect us to use your chosen term.

    Maybe it’s something like gender issues. You can call yourself a girl all you want. You can develop the body parts and take the hormones. You can have the surgery. You can dress as a woman. Other women can even welcome you as one of them. But don’t demand that all women accept you, or even expect it. And if you decide your kind is a better kind of woman and you start repeatedly using your power to oppress and kill females (or even beat them in sports) then… don’t be surprised when they call you a man. 

    • #117
  28. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Richard Harvester (View Comment):

    I haven’t been thoroughly following this. But I’m going to be blunt and lay out my definition – you are free to use your own but don’t expect me to agree.

    . . .

    I like this.

    I think this could be construed as support for Gary McVey’s analysis (#s 103-5), coupled with an explanation for why the community would define its borders this way.

    It also picks up on one of the criteria suggested by a comment from Susan Quinn (#s 94-95)–the criterion is not thinking a Messiah has come unless he has met certain conditions.

    And I’m impressed by your rebuttal of an attempt to define Judaism as requiring belief in the Torah!  I’d better make a note of this one.

    • #118
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