Fake News

 

Remarkable, isn’t it, that Donald Trump has made decrying “fake news” his calling card? Is the press hostile to him? Sure. Do they lie about him? For the most part, no. Then again, the truth is not everyone’s friend. As William Randolph Hearst once quipped: “If Mr. Hughes will stop telling lies about me, I’ll stop telling the truth about him.” Or, even better, William F. Buckley said of Gore Vidal: “Anyone who lies about him is doing him a favor.”

On his visit to Iraq, the president lied to the troops. How can you claim to honor people you are lying to? Lying signals contempt. “We are always going to protect you. And you just saw that, ’cause you just got one of the biggest pay raises you’ve ever received. … You haven’t gotten one in more than 10 years. More than 10 years. And we got you a big one. I got you a big one.”

Sure. Here’s the Pentagon’s online account of pay raises over the past 10 years. The military received raises each year for the past 10 years.

Mr. Trump wasn’t finished. “They had plenty of people that came up, they said, ‘You know, we could make it smaller. We could make it 3 percent, we could make it 2 percent, we could make it 4 percent,'” Trump told the troops about the latest pay raise. “I said, ‘No. Make it 10 percent. Make it more than 10 percent.'”

The late William Safire once wrote a column about his old boss, Richard Nixon, who had a weakness for claiming that aides had counseled him to “take the easy way out.” Safire joked (I’m paraphrasing) “Yes, I’m the one. I always proposed that he do the expedient thing, not the right thing.”

Trump takes the Nixon tick to new levels. The Boy Scouts claimed his speech to the jamboree was the greatest ever. The NFL called to agree that the timing of a presidential debate was terrible. Federal workers have been ringing him up to say “Keep the government closed,” though they are working without pay. What a lively phone life he has.

Anyway, did Trump request a 10 percent pay increase for the troops? No. Trump’s administration requested an increase of 2.1 percent for 2018. Congress passed the National Defense Authorization Act which included a 2.4 percent raise. In 2019, the troops will receive a 2.6 percent increase, which is the largest in nine years. But, even in the Trump era, 2.6 is not 10.

Speaking of previous efforts to visit Iraq that had been thwarted by security concerns, the president complained: “Pretty sad when you spend $7 trillion in the Middle East and going in has to be under this massive cover . . .”

It’s not the first time Mr. Trump has used this figure. On the campaign trail, he used to say that we had spent $6 trillion in the Middle East (“that’s trillion with a t”). And then, one day, he just began to say $7 trillion. And there it has remained. Don’t be surprised if it goes to $8 trillion when the mood suits him. Who says the inflation rate is low?

In 2014, the Congressional Research Service put the cost of the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts at $1.6 trillion. When questioned about the $7 trillion figure, the White House pointed to a paper by Boston University political scientist Neta Crawford. Her work factored together a great deal more than spending on Iraq and Afghanistan. She focused on all of our post-9/11 spending including not just the wars in those two countries, but also State Department and Agency for International Development spending, homeland security expenditures, and war-related veterans care and disability expenses. Still, even adding all of those extras into her calculations, she arrived at a figure of $3.6 trillion by 2016. She then also added something more – the cost of caring for veterans stretching into 2053, and “additional cumulative interest on past appropriations” to reach the number $8 trillion over 35 years.

Those are some loosey goosey numbers. But even assuming total good faith on Crawford’s part, and assuming Mr. Trump is even aware of her, he is grossly distorting her work. He constantly asserts that we’ve already spent $7 trillion on wars in the “Middle East,” not that our total post-9/11 expenditures on defense, diplomacy, homeland security, and veterans care until 2053 may add up to that.

So even while visiting the troops — a good deed — he managed to soil it by flinging lies in all directions.

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  1. Joe Pas Inactive
    Joe Pas
    @JoePas

    EJHill (View Comment):

    Joe Pas: Making comments in response to some imaginary Never-Trumper doesn’t move the conversation forward–it just makes one seem uncritical to a fault.

    Why are 40 years of lies more forgivable than those uttered since January 20, 2017? And why are those that ignore those lies less a group of enablers than Trump supporters? There are many reasons why Trump’s message resonated during the 2016 GOP primaries and this is one of them. Until his detractors realize and acknowledge that, their hypocrisy deserves to be called out.

    Just because someone doesn’t acknowledge every lie that’s been told by someone on the right doesn’t mean they’re a hypocrite.

    • #31
  2. Petty Boozswha Inactive
    Petty Boozswha
    @PettyBoozswha

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Old Bathos (View Comment):
    Trump is more like PT Barnum than Bernie Madoff. Most of us understand that and factor accordingly without personal drama in large part because we do not bear the burden of self-conscious NeverTrumpism which apparently requires a sustained state of indignation.

    And appearently that “understanding” just prices in habitual lying and contempt for the truth.

    I’m inclined to agree that he’s fully transitioned into being a politician. I’m still not clear on the degree to which his misstatements of fact are intentional, which, as we know, is what constitutes “lying.”

    I find the ability of so many people to rationalize a habitual and shameless liar is really breathtaking.

    As breathtaking as I find the fact that this is supposed to be responsive to what I wrote?

    To be sure, I’ve noticed in the past that so many people who toss the word “lie” and “liar” around become uncomfortable when the intent element of a “lie” is raised.

    I think your intent requirement should be expanded to include a reckless disregard for whether there is any factual basis in what he’s saying. The reason Mona and I get worked up by Trump’s lying isn’t because others haven’t lied before, it’s because Trump’s lying is a subset of his narcissism. Other Presidents lied, but not because they thought they were pulling a George Costanza – “If you can make yourself believe it it’s not a lie.”

    • #32
  3. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Petty Boozswha (View Comment):
    I think your intent requirement should be expanded to include a reckless disregard for weather

    Shoot, weathermen lie all the time. Don’t even take reckless disregard.

    • #33
  4. Joe Pas Inactive
    Joe Pas
    @JoePas

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Petty Boozswha (View Comment):
    I think your intent requirement should be expanded to include a reckless disregard for weather

    Shoot, weathermen lie all the time. Don’t even take reckless disregard.

    Weathermen and baseball players are the only people who can fail at their jobs ~70% of the time and remain employed.

    • #34
  5. Petty Boozswha Inactive
    Petty Boozswha
    @PettyBoozswha

    Har har har – I was correcting it while you were typing – so sorry.

    • #35
  6. EJHill Podcaster
    EJHill
    @EJHill

    Joe Pas: Just because someone doesn’t acknowledge every lie that’s been told by someone on the right doesn’t mean they’re a hypocrite.

    I’m not sure that’s a benchmark willing to be established.

    • #36
  7. Hoyacon Member
    Hoyacon
    @Hoyacon

    Petty Boozswha (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Hoyacon (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Old Bathos (View Comment):
    Trump is more like PT Barnum than Bernie Madoff. Most of us understand that and factor accordingly without personal drama in large part because we do not bear the burden of self-conscious NeverTrumpism which apparently requires a sustained state of indignation.

    And appearently that “understanding” just prices in habitual lying and contempt for the truth.

    I’m inclined to agree that he’s fully transitioned into being a politician. I’m still not clear on the degree to which his misstatements of fact are intentional, which, as we know, is what constitutes “lying.”

    I find the ability of so many people to rationalize a habitual and shameless liar is really breathtaking.

    As breathtaking as I find the fact that this is supposed to be responsive to what I wrote?

    To be sure, I’ve noticed in the past that so many people who toss the word “lie” and “liar” around become uncomfortable when the intent element of a “lie” is raised.

    I think your intent requirement should be expanded to include a reckless disregard for whether there is any factual basis in what he’s saying. The reason Mona and I get worked up by Trump’s lying isn’t because others haven’t lied before, it’s because Trump’s lying is a subset of his narcissism. Other Presidents lied, but not because they thought they were pulling a George Costanza – “If you can make yourself believe it it’s not a lie.”

    That’s a reasonable point, but I disagree.  “Reckless disregard” is a legalism.  In common parlance, which is what we are (I think) using, we should be using what amounts to a “normal” (dictionary) definition (which BTW is not my requirement).  At the rate we are going, that may change because it’s a bit “inconvenient,” but it hasn’t yet.  The use of the word “lie” or “liar” (without regard to intent) is a nice weapon, as has been evidenced above a couple of times.  But, for the most part, it’s a convenient form of attack meant to dodge what a “lie” really is.

    • #37
  8. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Annefy (View Comment):

    I thought of that story while reading Mona’s column; my first thought was: where in the world would members of the military be without people like Mona letting them know they’ve been dishonored??

    He hits me.  But then he says he loves me.  It’s so confusing!!

    Segue question: are members of the military free to express their opinions on politics (eg the president is a liar about military salary raises!!) while they are still in uniform?  They might not be:

    Article 88 of the UCMJ, 10 U.S.C. 888, makes it a crime for a commissioned military officer to use contemptuous words against the President and Congress, among others. The Department of Defense has also expanded this rule to include all military enlisted personnel (DOD Directive 1344.10).

    And if they can’t express their opinions on this, how does anybody know what the military as a whole is thinking about the President’s words, truthfulness and dishonour?  People can only conjecture.

    • #38
  9. Old Bathos Member
    Old Bathos
    @OldBathos

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Old Bathos (View Comment):
    Trump is more like PT Barnum than Bernie Madoff. Most of us understand that and factor accordingly without personal drama in large part because we do not bear the burden of self-conscious NeverTrumpism which apparently requires a sustained state of indignation.

    And appearently that “understanding” just prices in habitual lying and contempt for the truth.

    You are living proof of my point. If it really about love of the truth, the heightened indignation about Trump’s bombastic stylings among the NeverTrumpers should have gone to eleven during the Obama years when the lies were far more precisely calculated, substantive and about far more than the speaker getting attention in the moment.

    Trump is intellectually lazy and tosses off half-nonsense like a typical politician from a pre-mass media age. But his crapola is not intended to nor does it achieve much movement on public opinion on specifics. The lies of Clinto and Obama were crafted for larger effect and thus more malevolent.

    I am urged by George Will and Mona Charen to take these more malevolent forms of dishonesty as politics as usual but Trump’s BS as the end of the republic. That disproportion invites the suspicion that it is less about the specifics of Trump’s inaccurate stylings and more about a big dose of narcissistic virtual signaling in the absence of convincing evidence to the contrary

    • #39
  10. Petty Boozswha Inactive
    Petty Boozswha
    @PettyBoozswha

    Old Bathos (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Old Bathos (View Comment):
    Trump is more like PT Barnum than Bernie Madoff. Most of us understand that and factor accordingly without personal drama in large part because we do not bear the burden of self-conscious NeverTrumpism which apparently requires a sustained state of indignation.

    And appearently that “understanding” just prices in habitual lying and contempt for the truth.

    You are living proof of my point. If it really about love of the truth, the heightened indignation about Trump’s bombastic stylings among the NeverTrumpers should have gone to eleven during the Obama years when the lies were far more precisely calculated, substantive and about far more than the speaker getting attention in the moment.

    Trump is intellectually lazy and tosses off half-nonsense like a typical politician from a pre-mass media age. But his crapola is not intended to nor does it achieve much movement on public opinion on specifics. The lies of Clinto and Obama were crafted for larger effect and thus more malevolent.

    I am urged by George Will and Mona Charen to take these more malevolent forms of dishonesty as politics as usual but Trump’s BS as the end of the republic. That disproportion invites the suspicion that it is less about the specifics of Trump’s inaccurate stylings and more about a big dose of narcissistic virtual signaling in the absence of convincing evidence to the contrary

    Are you honestly arguing that Will or Charen didn’t care about Democrat lies? We are never going to be free of political “spin” by our politicians; Trump’s fantasies of Muslims cheering 911 from Jersey City rooftops or 10% raises for the troops from the dear leader are of a different quantum.

    • #40
  11. Old Bathos Member
    Old Bathos
    @OldBathos

    Petty Boozswha (View Comment):

    Old Bathos (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Old Bathos (View Comment):
    Trump is more like PT Barnum than Bernie Madoff. Most of us understand that and factor accordingly without personal drama in large part because we do not bear the burden of self-conscious NeverTrumpism which apparently requires a sustained state of indignation.

    And appearently that “understanding” just prices in habitual lying and contempt for the truth.

    You are living proof of my point. If it really about love of the truth, the heightened indignation about Trump’s bombastic stylings among the NeverTrumpers should have gone to eleven during the Obama years when the lies were far more precisely calculated, substantive and about far more than the speaker getting attention in the moment.

    Trump is intellectually lazy and tosses off half-nonsense like a typical politician from a pre-mass media age. But his crapola is not intended to nor does it achieve much movement on public opinion on specifics. The lies of Clinto and Obama were crafted for larger effect and thus more malevolent.

    I am urged by George Will and Mona Charen to take these more malevolent forms of dishonesty as politics as usual but Trump’s BS as the end of the republic. That disproportion invites the suspicion that it is less about the specifics of Trump’s inaccurate stylings and more about a big dose of narcissistic virtual signaling in the absence of convincing evidence to the contrary

    Are you honestly arguing that Will or Charen didn’t care about Democrat lies? We are never going to be free of political “spin” by our politicians; Trump’s fantasies of Muslims cheering 911 from Jersey City rooftops or 10% raises for the troops from the dear leader are of a different quantum.

    It is a matter of degree. I don’t recall either calling on Democrats to abandon Obama despite horrific abuse of power and lying about it. I do not recall an air of indignation and exasperation with Obama in every column regardless of the subject matter or topic. From that I conclude it is more about Charen and Will gratuitously signaling virtue much the same way Trump’s ego is always center stage. 

    Trump is frustratingly bombastic and conspicuously lacking in specific virtues but no more egocentric or dishonest than Obama and Clinton. The opinion leaders who comprise the NeverTrump cadres did not separate themselves from the corrupt stylings in vogue pre-Trump and are now in the odd position of virtually defending more established forms of corruption in opposition to the ad hoc BS theatrics of Trump who was elected in reaction to that corruption.

    • #41
  12. Petty Boozswha Inactive
    Petty Boozswha
    @PettyBoozswha

    I can’t understand how people of goodwill can see the same things so differently. I don’t doubt your honesty, but to those of us in the NeverTrump camp your comparisons sound like the Europeans that see no difference between Israel and Hamas. 

    • #42
  13. Annefy Member
    Annefy
    @Annefy

    Joe Pas (View Comment):

    Annefy (View Comment):

    We have a gay married couple that we spend a lot of time with. They are “the gays”; as in “dinner at the gays tonight”. “The gays stopped by.”

    I referred to them as such in front of my lefty friend. I was chastised for the offensive label. When I told the gays about it, one said: “please thank her for co-opting my outrage. I really don’t know how we manage without people like her letting us know when we’ve been insulted.”

    I thought of that story while reading Mona’s column; my first thought was: where in the world would members of the military be without people like Mona letting them know they’ve been dishonored??

    No, Mona, you dishonor them by patronizing them.

    Would you be saying this if we replaced President Trump in this scenario with President Obama? Would we all let it go and feel hunky-dory if he had been the one to say something false to our troops? For some reason, I don’t we would. I think we’d be rightfully outraged. But since President Trump does it, we are supposed to let it go.

    If lying to someone doesn’t also mean you’re dishonoring them then I don’t know where we stand as a nation.

    “Would you be saying this if we replaced President Trump in this scenario with President Obama?” I was hyper sensitive to anything President Obama said about the troops, as I never felt like he thought much of the military. In my opinion, Trump holds the military in higher regard, so my reaction is different and not nearly as harsh.

    Regarding the use of the word “lying”, I wish we could be more nuanced in our descriptors. What Trump said about pay raises for the troops pales in comparison, for instance, to what Obama said about Benghazi. Silly to think anyone would have similar feelings of outrage to both acts of “lying”.

    • #43
  14. Annefy Member
    Annefy
    @Annefy

    George Townsend (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    But the comment preceded his trip to Iraq. and I think yesterday was after Christmas.

    Christmastime = the time around Christmas. Including after.

    If this were Obama, I’d be willing to bet that we would not go out of our way to find excuses.

    By your own words, Christmastime can last until February. Christmas is one day. Not Advent. Christmas.

    So what? I treat and judge each person individually based upon a lot of information. I’ve used this example before: I have four adult children. “Lend me 20 bucks and I’ll pay you back” means something different for each one of them, and they are all treated differently.

    Isn’t that what thinking, intelligent adults are supposed to do?

    • #44
  15. Annefy Member
    Annefy
    @Annefy

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Annefy (View Comment):

    I thought of that story while reading Mona’s column; my first thought was: where in the world would members of the military be without people like Mona letting them know they’ve been dishonored??

    He hits me. But then he says he loves me. It’s so confusing!!

    Segue question: are members of the military free to express their opinions on politics (eg the president is a liar about military salary raises!!) while they are still in uniform? They might not be:

    Article 88 of the UCMJ, 10 U.S.C. 888, makes it a crime for a commissioned military officer to use contemptuous words against the President and Congress, among others. The Department of Defense has also expanded this rule to include all military enlisted personnel (DOD Directive 1344.10).

    And if they can’t express their opinions on this, how does anybody know what the military as a whole is thinking about the President’s words, truthfulness and dishonour? People can only conjecture.

    Well, I guess we don’t know. Even after syndicated writers have weighed in, it’s still conjecture.

    I’m conjecturing that members of the military will have their own feelings on the matter and don’t need others to tell them they’ve been “dishonored” if, indeed, that’s how they feel.

    • #45
  16. Annefy Member
    Annefy
    @Annefy

    Petty Boozswha (View Comment):

    I can’t understand how people of goodwill can see the same things so differently. I don’t doubt your honesty, but to those of us in the NeverTrump camp your comparisons sound like the Europeans that see no difference between Israel and Hamas.

    And the insistence to label every inaccuracy and exaggeration as a “lie” sounds to me like my kids when they were young insisting I’d “lied” when I told them we’d go to the park and it didn’t happen.

    • #46
  17. philo Member
    philo
    @philo

    I cannot help but wonder how much Ms. Charen paid for her personalized copy of the Thomas Friedman Op/Ed Generator…or is it just a bootleg copy? Another tiresome offering of artificial thinking. (Believe me, that is the less embarrassing interpretation.)  Yawn.

    Tenacity? Don’t make me laugh.

    • #47
  18. Manny Coolidge
    Manny
    @Manny

    LOL my comment was an attack?  Ok. My first mistake was breaking my promise never to read Mona again. It really is a waste of time. 

    • #48
  19. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    Old Bathos (View Comment):

    Trump is not sufficiently versed in details to lie about budgetary matters. He is simply indifferent to accuracy as a norm.

    If Trump is not sufficiently versed in budgetary matters to get a cost of living increment wrong, he is not qualified to be President.

    The level of indignation in this post is unwarranted.

    Truthfulness is a virtue.  Name a less truthful Republican President.

    When people who craft the specifics of a policy (the “savings” from Obamacare or the climate impact of the Paris Agreement) toss out bogus numbers, that’s lying.

    Trump is more like PT Barnum than Bernie Madoff. Most of us understand that and factor accordingly without personal drama in large part because we do not bear the burden of self-conscious NeverTrumpism which apparently requires a sustained state of indignation.

    Neither PT Barnum or Bernie Madoff should be President.  Neither should be the nominee of my party.

    • #49
  20. James Gawron Inactive
    James Gawron
    @JamesGawron

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    If Trump is not sufficiently versed in budgetary matters to get a cost of living increment wrong, he is not qualified to be President.

    Gary,

    Isn’t this a rather idiotic statement considering that Trump has done a rather good job as President for the last two years. This with a rabid Democrat/MSM viciously attacking him for no cause whatsoever and half the Republican Party doing nothing because they hermaphroditically aren’t sure just what party they’re in.

    Perhaps Trump failed a spelling test in 3rd grade too. Nothing is too trivial for a cosmic disqualification.

    Regards,

    Jim

    • #50
  21. Gary Robbins Member
    Gary Robbins
    @GaryRobbins

    James Gawron (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    If Trump is not sufficiently versed in budgetary matters to get a cost of living increment wrong, he is not qualified to be President.

    Gary,

    Isn’t this a rather idiotic statement considering that Trump has done a rather good job as President for the last two years. This with a rabid Democrat/MSM viciously attacking him for no cause whatsoever and half the Republican Party doing nothing because they hermaphroditically aren’t sure just what party they’re in.

    Perhaps Trump failed a spelling test in 3rd grade too. Nothing is too trivial for a cosmic disqualification.

    Regards,

    Jim

    There are three reasons why lawyers get disbarred.  First, stealing from clients.  Second, lying to the Court.  Third, abandoning one’s clients.  The first and third reasons are usually directly related to drug addiction and/or alcoholism.  But the second is not.  

    Being deceitful is grounds for the loss of your license.  Ironically, you are suggesting that the standards for a President should be lower than being an attorney.

    • #51
  22. James Gawron Inactive
    James Gawron
    @JamesGawron

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):

    James Gawron (View Comment):

    Gary Robbins (View Comment):
    If Trump is not sufficiently versed in budgetary matters to get a cost of living increment wrong, he is not qualified to be President.

    Gary,

    Isn’t this a rather idiotic statement considering that Trump has done a rather good job as President for the last two years. This with a rabid Democrat/MSM viciously attacking him for no cause whatsoever and half the Republican Party doing nothing because they hermaphroditically aren’t sure just what party they’re in.

    Perhaps Trump failed a spelling test in 3rd grade too. Nothing is too trivial for a cosmic disqualification.

    Regards,

    Jim

    There are three reasons why lawyers get disbarred. First, stealing from clients. Second, lying to the Court. Third, abandoning one’s clients. The first and third reasons are usually directly related to drug addiction and/or alcoholism. But the second is not.

    Being deceitful is grounds for the loss of your license. Ironically, you are suggesting that the standards for a President should be lower than being an attorney.

    Gary,

    I am suggesting nothing of the kind. You know as well as I do that this is a completely manufactured issue designed to propagandize. It is an ugly tactic that trivial journalists who don’t have the guts to pursue a real story, one that will matter to the great mass of people, but would rather make themselves out to be a hero by sticking it to Trump. While the so-called news media has been bloviating this incessant nonsense the middle class has been mutilated, the family destroyed, genocide spread over the face of the earth, and tyrants appeased. Obama’s mentor was the editor of the Communist Party of America newspaper while Stalin was alive. Obama’s reverend shrieked, “God Damn America” not just once but actually sold DVDs of the “sermon” where he repeated the phrase many times. None of these stories were of any interest. When I was growing up if someone was Black it meant that their grandfather had been dragged to this country in chains. It didn’t mean your father was a Kenyan politician who had a brief relationship with a white girl and then went back to Kenya. Obama made over 30 speeches where he quoted the amount of money that the average family was going to save on their healthcare costs. They instead got 40% 60% 80% increases in their healthcare costs. Gruber made it clear that they knew exactly what was going to happen. He said, “Lack of transparency is a huge political advantage.” Ben Rhodes explained how they sold the “Iran Deal” a major arms control treaty that didn’t need a 2/3 vote to be ratified even though it says exactly that in the Constitution. Ben explained, “We lied!”

    In short, the standards for a President have already been lowered down so far that a dung beetle has higher standards.

    Regards,

    Jim

    • #52
  23. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Annefy (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Annefy (View Comment):

    I thought of that story while reading Mona’s column; my first thought was: where in the world would members of the military be without people like Mona letting them know they’ve been dishonored??

    He hits me. But then he says he loves me. It’s so confusing!!

    Segue question: are members of the military free to express their opinions on politics (eg the president is a liar about military salary raises!!) while they are still in uniform? They might not be:

    Article 88 of the UCMJ, 10 U.S.C. 888, makes it a crime for a commissioned military officer to use contemptuous words against the President and Congress, among others. The Department of Defense has also expanded this rule to include all military enlisted personnel (DOD Directive 1344.10).

    And if they can’t express their opinions on this, how does anybody know what the military as a whole is thinking about the President’s words, truthfulness and dishonour? People can only conjecture.

    Well, I guess we don’t know. Even after syndicated writers have weighed in, it’s still conjecture.

    I’m conjecturing that members of the military will have their own feelings on the matter and don’t need others to tell them they’ve been “dishonored” if, indeed, that’s how they feel.

    True enough, but the OP expressed an opinion/made a statement (President lies to the troops) and asked a question (can you really respect someone if you lie to them?)

    The author didn’t tell anybody how they ‘should’ feel.  I’m not sure where that came from?

    • #53
  24. George Townsend Inactive
    George Townsend
    @GeorgeTownsend

    Joe Pas (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    “We will repeal Obamacare and make sure there is a stable transition to a truly patient-centered system.” – Paul Ryan

    ”We’re not going to spend taxpayers’ money on abortion.” – George W. Bush with 8 consecutive years of increasing Title X “family planning” budgets.

    “We will cut the deficit in half in 5 years.” – George W. Bush 2004 SOTU address

    “I don’t think our troops ought to be used for what’s called ‘nation-building.’” – George W. Bush October 2000

    Only Trump lies. Everyone else just misspeaks.

    I don’t think Mona, or anyone in the thread, said anything of the sort.

    Trump lies. The media lie. Other politicians lie. None of these facts make any of the others false. Comments like this–responses to a perceived attack on President Trump that was never actually said–seem borne from a reflexive instinct to defend him, an instinct grounded in nothing other than a need to defend “our guy.”

    I understand where it comes from. There are an incredible number of baseless attacks on the president from every corner. Combating lying blue-checks and talking heads could be a full time job. But that doesn’t mean we should ignore reality, and the reality is that Donald Trump lies quite often.

    Making comments in response to some imaginary Never-Trumper doesn’t move the conversation forward–it just makes one seem uncritical to a fault. And dismissing or disregarding Mona’s article (or any other article critical of the president) just because other claims about President Trump might be unfounded makes one look like a lackey.

    Let’s let down our defenses and be objective about the president. We can still support him while admitting he does wrong.

    Amen!

    • #54
  25. George Townsend Inactive
    George Townsend
    @GeorgeTownsend

    Instugator (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):

    Instugator (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    But the comment preceded his trip to Iraq. and I think yesterday was after Christmas.

    Christmastime = the time around Christmas. Including after.

    If this were Obama, I’d be willing to bet that we would not go out of our way to find excuses.

    By your own words, Christmastime can last until February. Christmas is one day. Not Advent. Christmas.

    Not my words, George, NBC’s words – for which they have appended an editor’s note which reads;

    Editor’s note: On Wednesday, NBC News compiled a list of every Christmastime visit to active troops by a president since 2001. That list, as detailed in the article below, showed that former Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama visited troops on or before Christmas every year since 2003, and President Donald Trump did so in 2017. As of the end of Christmas Day 2018, Trump had not visited troops during the holiday season, and had announced no plans to do so. The article was correct, but on Dec. 26, the situation changed. Trump and the first lady, Melania Trump, made an unannounced visit to troops in Iraq. As a result, the thrust of this article is no longer correct, even if it was at the time. In the interest of transparency, we are keeping the article on NBCNews.com so that the record will reflect the situation on the day the article was published, and are directing readers to the article about Trump’s Iraq visit here. We are also altering one line in the article, as well as the headline, to be more specific and to note that Trump was the first president since 2002 who didn’t visit military personnel on or before Christmas, rather than at Christmastime.

    It seems that they consider “Christmastime” to be both before and after Christmas. Almost but not quite in line with the ecclesiastical calendar of 25 December – 5 January (the eponymous 12 days of Christmas).

    Since they are big enough to admit Christmastime is around Christmas, can’t you do the same?

    I am just astonished that they had to change the headline to be even more petty than previous.

    I am glad they wrote the first part. It shows flexibility on their part. As far as thinking Christmastime is after Christmas, it is a judgement call. I don’t think it is. Maybe writing “The Christmas Season” would appease me more. In any case, I still believe your original comment was wrong. I don’t like much of the media either, but to say they lie about Trump all the time is inaccurate, and a calumny. And you did not prove it with your original comment. Mona proved her case, by quoting figures.

    • #55
  26. George Townsend Inactive
    George Townsend
    @GeorgeTownsend

    Joe Pas (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    Joe Pas: Making comments in response to some imaginary Never-Trumper doesn’t move the conversation forward–it just makes one seem uncritical to a fault.

    Why are 40 years of lies more forgivable than those uttered since January 20, 2017? And why are those that ignore those lies less a group of enablers than Trump supporters? There are many reasons why Trump’s message resonated during the 2016 GOP primaries and this is one of them. Until his detractors realize and acknowledge that, their hypocrisy deserves to be called out.

    Just because someone doesn’t acknowledge every lie that’s been told by someone on the right doesn’t mean they’re a hypocrite.

    I fing, Joe, that most people who use that word nowadays do not understand its meaning.

    • #56
  27. Larry3435 Inactive
    Larry3435
    @Larry3435

    I don’t want to engage in whataboutism here, but it seems like a good place to mention my favorite political lie.  Actually, my two favorites.  First, we have been told for at least 20 years that there are 11 million illegal aliens (or, if you’re a Democrat, 11 million undocumented immigrants) in the U.S.  The number never went up.  That was obviously ridiculous.  There are no caravans of illegals headed south across the border.  Of course the number has been increasing.  Finally, this year, we got a Yale / MIT study that put the actual number at somewhere between 16.5 million and 29.1 million.

    My other favorite lie is that not a single one of these people ever votes in any U.S. election.  Even though they all break the law by coming here, and a majority of them break the law by using forged documents and stolen social security numbers to work here under perjured I-9 Forms, they are all too morally upright and respectful of the law to ever dream of voting illegally.  No need to check ID’s.  Nothing to see here; move along.  Unless you’re a racist…  Hmmm, are you?

    The difference between these lies and Trump’s lies is that Trump’s lies are always about how great Trump is, while the lies I mention are intended to affect public policy and have been successful in affecting public policy.  It’s a difference between puffery and fraud.  I’m sure Mona could direct me to some of her outraged articles about the fraud-style lies, but I don’t seem to be able to find them.

    • #57
  28. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Kozak (View Comment):

    [Redacted.]

    Ok.

     

    The Weekly lets bash Trump,  stir the pot and never ever deign to respond to any of the comments from the paying members of Ricochet, who overwhelming seem to find this weekly bashing annoying and off-putting.

     

     

    • #58
  29. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Annefy (View Comment):
    In my opinion, Trump holds the military in higher regard, so my reaction is different and not nearly as harsh.

    Not just your opinion. Take a look at Obama’s “Latte Salute” and compare with President Trump’s fetching the Marine’s hat. No comparison between the two.

    • #59
  30. Annefy Member
    Annefy
    @Annefy

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Annefy (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Annefy (View Comment):

    I thought of that story while reading Mona’s column; my first thought was: where in the world would members of the military be without people like Mona letting them know they’ve been dishonored??

    He hits me. But then he says he loves me. It’s so confusing!!

    Segue question: are members of the military free to express their opinions on politics (eg the president is a liar about military salary raises!!) while they are still in uniform? They might not be:

    Article 88 of the UCMJ, 10 U.S.C. 888, makes it a crime for a commissioned military officer to use contemptuous words against the President and Congress, among others. The Department of Defense has also expanded this rule to include all military enlisted personnel (DOD Directive 1344.10).

    And if they can’t express their opinions on this, how does anybody know what the military as a whole is thinking about the President’s words, truthfulness and dishonour? People can only conjecture.

    Well, I guess we don’t know. Even after syndicated writers have weighed in, it’s still conjecture.

    I’m conjecturing that members of the military will have their own feelings on the matter and don’t need others to tell them they’ve been “dishonored” if, indeed, that’s how they feel.

    True enough, but the OP expressed an opinion/made a statement (President lies to the troops) and asked a question (can you really respect someone if you lie to them?)

    The author didn’t tell anybody how they ‘should’ feel. I’m not sure where that came from?

    Actually – I’m confused myself. The OP seems to end different than I remember. My original comment about dishonor was about that word in the OP. The last sentence of the OP isn’t anything I would respond to.

    edited to add: nevermind

    • #60
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