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The Veneration, or Not, of the Saints
The topic of veneration is a bit of a challenge for me, as the first association I have with the word is the veneration of saints. I’m Lutheran though, and Lutherans don’t venerate saints; we’re kinda famous for not doing so. If you’ll indulge a flippant over-simplification, we don’t think God is an officious bureaucrat who requires all the relevant department heads to sign off on a request before fulfilling it or a lazy kid who won’t do his chores until his mom nags him.
That being said, we do still have a place for saints in our worship. They are for our education and edification, if not our veneration. My Liber Hymnorum, a hymnal of Latin hymns used by the early Lutheran church, describes a year of saintly feasts, from St. Sebastian on January 20th to the Holy Innocents on December 28th, with stops for St. Gregory in March, St. Anne in July, and St. Michael and All Angels in September, as well as about a dozen others. The Brotherhood Prayer Book, a Lutheran breviary, lists dozens more notable church fathers and mothers whose feast day is a chance for honoring and remembering their extraordinary lives, including doctors of the church like John Chrysostom, Anselm of Canterbury, Bede the Venerable, and Augustine of Hippo. (If you see a St. Martin Lutheran Church, it is recognizing Martin of Tours, not Mr. Luther.)
On these special occasions, we have special hymns and collects, e.g. the collect for the Feast of St. Peter and St. Paul includes “O God, who didst give Thine Apostles Peter and Paul grace to lay down their lives for the sake of Thy dear Son : endow us, we beseech Thee, with like constancy, that we may at all times be ready to lay down our lives.” The standard saint’s festival hymn for LCMS congregations is “By All Your Saints in Warfare,” 517-518. Yes, that’s one hymn — 28 verses over four pages. The first and third verses are always the same; the second is the one responsive to the day, whether verse 4 “Saints and Martyrs (general)” sung on All Saints’ or verse 22 “St. Mary, Mother of Our Lord” sung on my birthday.
It may not be veneration, but we Lutherans still have a place for saints.
Published in Group Writing
“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” – Phil. 2:12
Most of us have to fight for every bit of it. Sometimes dearly. Sometimes it comes easily, very often it does not.
Revelation is tricky. And it is surprising. It’s also rarely for the asking. Keep your eyes and ears open because for those to whom it has been given, it’s usually something they won’t speak about except in private.
The Orthodox recite a confession together before receiving the Eucharist, and this is the opening:
Catholics do the same before receiving the Eucharist:
I confess to Almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done
and in what I have failed to do,
through my fault,
through my fault,
through my most grievous fault;
therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.
This is known as the confiteor, which is Latin for “I confess”.
If your comments were limited to just saying that – these practices don’t increase my sense of the sacred, have the opposite effect, and I find them archaic – that would be fine. But that’s not what you do, Bryan. Most of the time (it might be all of the time, but I am not here consistently so I can’t say “all” with certitude), when the subject of faith comes up in posts, you use the opportunity to throw insults at Catholicism. And then back off, hiding behind, “This just doesn’t work for me”. You’ve stated here that the practices of Catholics and the Orthodox are pagan or “too close” to paganism. You’ve said that Catholics make saints into minor deities, a statement that would offend all Catholics and Orthodox, whose churches teach that worship is reserved for God alone. You like to say disparaging things about Catholicism and claim that it’s “historical fact”. You extol the Reformation as the source of your religious freedom, despite being corrected by Amy and others in the past as to the historical inaccuracy of that claim. Earlier I asked you if you were surprised that most Christians would be offended by being told that their practices were pagan or nearly so – you ignored my question, and instead made yourself out to be the victim (other people – read CATHOLICS – like to punish people for heresy and don’t like people who aren’t like them!).
In short, you’re an anti-Catholic bigot. Just own it and be honest about it.
I love its brilliant use in the song “Hellfire” in Disney’s “The Hunchback of Notre Dame.”
I wrote a whole post about it a while back:
http://ricochet.com/291675/archives/november-music-hellfire-from-disneys-the-hunchback-of-notre-dame/
Well, I was struck today at how a meeting, way off topic, helped me today. I thanked God aloud for it, and the other man, a Christian chuckled, but he really was my Angel today.
I think it is clear that you cannot hear what I am saying. I am sorry I cannot make it more clear. The fact you are now name calling, when I have been nothing but civil, shows that understanding is not going to happen.
Calling the practices of most Christians throughout history “pagan” or the only slightly better “too pagan for me” is not civil. Declaring that saints are considered minor gods and “that’s a fact” is not civil. Trying to walk it back to “well, it’s okay for you [to perform practices I consider pagan] but not for me” is not civil.
These things are insulting, and given the number of times this has been explained to you, I can only assume that your understanding this will not happen.
Seeing the insult, I have tried to approach what I am saying from different angles. It is not helping. I cannot stop someone from being insulted.
It is funny, because I have had these very sorts of conversations with Catholics in real life, and they don’t disagree with me. We have a short conversation and move on. Maybe face to face it all comes off better.
You do see the insult? When did this happen? I am glad to hear of it. I expect, then, that we won’t hear you do this again in future comments on this or any other post.
Here’s a suggestion: Recognize that calling a practice “pagan” or “near pagan” is usually an insult if not warranted (for example, it is warranted to say that the use of wedding rings has its roots in pre-Christian pagan practice), especially if your grasp of early Church history is lacking. You seem to be throwing the responsibility for your bigotry off onto others. This is a Jane Fonda apology method: “I’m sorry that some of you are so stupid and dense that you took offense”. Except, of course, that you aren’t apologizing…. Like I said earlier, just own the ant-Catholic bigotry and be honest about it.
I suspect that if you show face-to-face the kind of hostility to most things Catholic that you invariably do here, perhaps they sense it’s better for them to move on. Bigotry at this level can’t be reasoned with. And, frankly, most Catholics have been very poorly catechized, so maybe the ones you have come across simply have no defense of their faith to offer. The odds are unfortunately in favor of that explanation.
Apparently, defensiveness on this level cannot be reasoned with.
Yeah right, Bryan: Use inflammatory language that is insulting to most Christians, and then label them unreasonably defensive when they object.
Do you think that this is how Christ would like to see you interact with fellow Christians? Or do you not regard Catholics and Orthodox as Christians, and therefore that makes insulting them OK?
I think previous conversations have made it clear that Bryan does think Catholics and Orthodox are Christian, but that they’re the ones who are mean by defining Christianity in such a way that something can be considered heretical. He also interprets Christianity through the lens of sociological research, which is why he thinks pagan is a value-neutral term as opposed to heretical, which is an insult.
Appreciate the translation assist, Amy…Since one’s faith-life is part of one’s *personhood*, discussion absent social cues that one has in real life, is often fraught.
You are being very charitable, and I respect and admire that. However, Bryan has made it clear from his comments that he does not regard “pagan” as a value-neutral term. He explicitly mentions that some Catholic and Orthodox practices make him “recoil” precisely because he sees them as pagan or pagan-like. If he regarded the term as value-neutral, he wouldn’t have that reaction. Nor does this explain his “historical facts” which aren’t facts at all, but anti-Catholic stuff which sounds like he lifted them from a Jack Chick tract.
I’ve been involved in this other theology fight at “A Conversation about the Bible.”
Did I miss anything?
I’m not saying he’s got his facts straight, just that he’s sincere in not understanding how or why he’s being rude.
Well, bless you for seeing the best in a person!
I didn’t know there was another theology fight going on. Did I miss anything?
In answer to your question, no, not really. No minds or hearts changed.
I would be more forgiving if we hadn’t had a discussion about the Reformation not that long ago. You and I and others attempted to correct, with actual historical facts, Bryan’s assertion that the Reformation ushered in the freedom which he enjoys, namely, the freedom to believe whatever the heck he wants to believe. I think it was demonstrated that no, actually many of the Reformers were intolerant of views that did not accord with their own. I gave as an example Calvin’s Geneva, but there are plenty of other examples (Henry VIII burning 25 Anabaptists in one day, the Salem Witch Trials, etc.). If one of his objections to Catholicism is its naming certain positions as heretical, well, the same can be said of the different strains of Protestantism, both past and present. Condemning views as heretical is not a uniquely Catholic thing, but probably is something in our basic human, tribal nature. Anyway, here Bryan repeats the same claim – the Reformation gave him freedom to worship as he sees fit! What is this, then, if not deep-seated prejudice?
If you’re interested, it’s at http://ricochet.com/581562/a-conversation-about-the-bible.
I’ve met Bryan. He’s a good guy. He’s a lot like my husband in that neither can lie about nor even effectively hide what he’s feeling. When he says he doesn’t get why everyone’s so annoyed at him, I take that comment at face value, even as I wonder how he can’t see it.
A particular and dearly held view of history. And sure, he’s right that the Reformation is part of why America is the way it is; it’s just not what lawyers would call the proximate cause. The conquering of England by French-speaking Vikings, the Black Death, the Glorious Revolution of 1688 — all these are also causes that have as much if not more to do with it.
There’s a famous case taught in law schools (Palsgraf v. Long Island Railroad Company) to examine the difference between a cause and a proximate cause. A man runs to catch a train. A train employee grabs him so he doesn’t fall on the track. The man drops his package of fireworks that go off when they hit the third rail. The fireworks cause a coin operated scale to fall on Mrs. Palsgraf. Now, is the railroad liable for her injuries because if it weren’t for the conductor she wouldn’t have been injured? Or should they be off the hook because there was no way to predict her injuries could happen by helping a man catch his train?
I would argue that the Reformation is to modern Christianity and freedom of worship as the conductor was to Mrs. Palsgraf’s injuries — a necessary action to bring about the result, but by no means was the result the inevitable or desired outcome of the action.
I like that.
It occurred to me a long time ago that I could be annoyed at Chef Sly’s inability to provide me with planned pleasant surprises or be happy that he could never deliberately create an unpleasant surprise. The latter attitude leads to a much happier marriage.
I like this a lot – brilliant!
From the OP, I understand that the Lutherans believe in saints and they recognize individual saints.
So I’m curious, the Roman Catholic Church continues to go through a process of making modern saints. Does the Lutheran Church recognize them? Or does their church have their own process?
Or does the Lutheran Church only recognize saints the RC Church designated before their schism from that church?
Again, just curious. Not trying to start a fight.
As far as I can tell, and I freely admit I have not studied the ins and outs of this, Lutherans recognize many fewer saints than either the Catholic or Orthodox, and all I’m aware of are from pre-1000 AD. Given the far more fractious nature of the non-centralized churches, I imagine this is the result of going with saints who are universally recognized and avoiding ones that could cause conflict between various dukes, electors, and margraves.
A well stated Lutheran position on veneration of the saints. I’ll argue a bit on Christmas Day that those of us in the Reformed or Protestant tradition may have thrown the baby, or actually the mother, out with the bathwater.
This conversation is part of our Group Writing Series under December’s theme of Veneration. There are plenty of dates still available. Have you had an encounter with a saint, or someone who is truly venerable? Is there a sports figure who you believe is venerated, and what do you think of it? What is venerated in our society today? We have some wonderful photo essays on Ricochet; perhaps you have a story to tell about nature, art, or architecture that points to subjects worth venerating. Have we lost the musical, written, visual language of veneration? The possibilities are endless! Why not start a conversation? Our schedule and sign-up sheet awaits. As a heads-up, our January theme will be Renovation. I’ll post the sign-up sheet mid-month.
When I was young, I was taught that those who accept Jesus as Lord were saints. There is no ecclesiastical bureaucratic action required: God knows His own.
Note that this was then the American Lutheran Church, which merged with the Lutheran Church in America in the 80s to become the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and I have issues with those birds.
Now I’ll wait for Amy to explain why I’m all wet.
Oh, we LCMS join you with having issues with the ELCA too: