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The Veneration, or Not, of the Saints
The topic of veneration is a bit of a challenge for me, as the first association I have with the word is the veneration of saints. I’m Lutheran though, and Lutherans don’t venerate saints; we’re kinda famous for not doing so. If you’ll indulge a flippant over-simplification, we don’t think God is an officious bureaucrat who requires all the relevant department heads to sign off on a request before fulfilling it or a lazy kid who won’t do his chores until his mom nags him.
That being said, we do still have a place for saints in our worship. They are for our education and edification, if not our veneration. My Liber Hymnorum, a hymnal of Latin hymns used by the early Lutheran church, describes a year of saintly feasts, from St. Sebastian on January 20th to the Holy Innocents on December 28th, with stops for St. Gregory in March, St. Anne in July, and St. Michael and All Angels in September, as well as about a dozen others. The Brotherhood Prayer Book, a Lutheran breviary, lists dozens more notable church fathers and mothers whose feast day is a chance for honoring and remembering their extraordinary lives, including doctors of the church like John Chrysostom, Anselm of Canterbury, Bede the Venerable, and Augustine of Hippo. (If you see a St. Martin Lutheran Church, it is recognizing Martin of Tours, not Mr. Luther.)
On these special occasions, we have special hymns and collects, e.g. the collect for the Feast of St. Peter and St. Paul includes “O God, who didst give Thine Apostles Peter and Paul grace to lay down their lives for the sake of Thy dear Son : endow us, we beseech Thee, with like constancy, that we may at all times be ready to lay down our lives.” The standard saint’s festival hymn for LCMS congregations is “By All Your Saints in Warfare,” 517-518. Yes, that’s one hymn — 28 verses over four pages. The first and third verses are always the same; the second is the one responsive to the day, whether verse 4 “Saints and Martyrs (general)” sung on All Saints’ or verse 22 “St. Mary, Mother of Our Lord” sung on my birthday.
It may not be veneration, but we Lutherans still have a place for saints.
Published in Group Writing
They were treating him in life as a holy man with power. That is no different than a pagan going to a shaman, as it were. I have no problem with asking anyone to pray for me. I have not been against that at all. I am against the idea that Saints have areas of responsibility and that you go to that Saint for their area of expertise.
The use of the statute and selling houses mentioned by someone else in this thread is exactly where I get that sort of idea. Go back and read that bit again.
I don’t see where I have, in anyway, gone against that.
Like many Protestants, I don’t think the Catholic Church is the final authority on my faith. Note, you are quick to jump on any catagorization I make about the Catholic Church practices following pagan principles, but yet, you, and other Catholics are quick to cast any statement I make about wanting to find my own path to God as “making it up as you go along”.
So, you can recoil from the idea that I can search for God without a Priest or Pope, and I can recoil from practices that look pagan. Seems fair to me.
Treating Saints with areas of responsibility. Example Practice with a statue already given by someone else.
We can disagree on usage. Never in my life have I head someone say “Pray to Bob” and I have heard “Pray to Mary”.
Gosh, Jean, you do so like to take what I say and argue I said something else when it comes to faith. I did not call anyone “pagan” I said their practices look pagan. Totally different, and clearly what I said.
I do believe that the practices border on violation of the Graven Images and Putting No other God before God, yeah. You can think leaving a Church is a Mortal Sin, and I can think as I do.
Yes! It led to today.
Had I said that, you would have a point. I did not say that, though I guess that is what you want me to have said.
Actually, it’s worlds-away different.
What do you make of the accounts of the Apostles healing and casting out demons in Acts?
Okay. I’m going to have to bow out of this thread. I don’t want to end up saying something uncharitable.
And it bears repeating because it is a point to which I would like you to respond. I fear you are condemning everything because of what misuse you have seen in practice, but avoiding the theological question. So I’ll ask directly:
Without settling those questions, the rest of the debate is rather moot with you. If your answer to 2 is “No”, then why argue over whether or not you understand the practice, or its misuse?
There is not a debate here. I don’t like how Saints are treated by the Catholic faith because its practice is too close to pagan practice. Period, end of sentence. End of point. I am not calling anyone pagan. I am not saying anyone is engaged in a mortal sin. I would not want to engage in those things because it does not sit well with me.
How is it different? How is the actions of the person going to the Man of God different than the actions of a person going to the Shaman? It is the same set of behaviors. Both people are seeking spiritual power and healing. Both men are saying they are a conduit between the spiritual and earthly realms.
I don’t find the fact that humans engage in similar rituals to be a problem, which is good, because it is a fact. I believe our brains latch on to certain things in certain ways. And the urge to try to make Heaven look like Earth is a big one.
Does such prayer accomplish anything beyond that? What does prayer do?
And it has already been pointed out that that is a silly, superstitious act by an individual. It’s not the teaching of the Church. As for “areas of responsibility” – a term not used by Catholics or the Orthodox – what do you mean?
Before addressing your question, I’m curious what you have to say about the Apostles, and about their miracles.
Then you are recoiling from the beliefs and practice of the majority of Christians from the earliest times. The Orthodox have the same beliefs and practices of the Catholic Church in this regard. Frankly, I think it is the height of arrogance to call most Christians pagans, which is what you are essentially doing.
Patron Saint of X. Whatever X is is their area of responsibility. Like Ministers for a King. I am now repeating myself.
You keep referring to the Catholic Church, but the Orthodox Churches share the same beliefs in this area. Why are you always forgetting the Orthodox? If you combine the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, you are talking about the vast majority of Christians practicing pagan acts.
I am not sure what you are asking here. Let me approach it this way:
If the Bible stories are to be believed, there are people with powers to transform and change, not getting that power from God. The mages making their staves into snakes comes to mind. God showed them (through Moses). So the form or the behavior of miracles being performed is not unique to Men (or Women) of God. I am not sure where the mages in Egypt got their power, though my guess is from Lucifer.
That may or many not answer your question.
Also, Brian, although you self-identity as a Protestant, elsewhere you have stated that you don’t believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. This is one of the pillars of Protestantism that you are throwing off – are you sure you are a Protestant? That you are a Christian, I make no doubt, but why do you call yourself a Protestant when you reject a basic tenet of it?
I am not calling most Christians pagans. You can hear that all you want, but that does not make it true. Further, you do me the disservice of assuming I do not mean what I say, something you have done before on this subject. Please stop telling me what I am saying, when I am telling you, clearly, that is not what I am saying.
And for the record, who the heck cares if I was calling Christians pagans? Why on Earth does that so offend you? Is your faith that threatened? I think it is the height of arrogance for an organization composed of men to say that they have a final authority on what I should believe. The difference between us is, I don’t care what you believe, and you seem to be very offended at what I believe.
Practicing acts that seem are too close to pagan acts for my personal comfort. Can you not even grant me that? They make me uncomfortable. Why do you care about that?
You are like someone telling me I “should” not be upset when something happens that upsets me. Prayer is between me and God, and that is more than I can manage right now. I don’t need anyone else in on it. This is what works for me.
First off, my name is spelled, Bryan. Since that is in every post, I find it hard to believe you cannot spell it right. I don’t refer to you as Jeen, do I?
Second, I guess you are saying that all Protestants should be young earth creationists. Wow. How insulting. I guess only Catholics (and Orthodox) believe in Science and all us Protestants don’t.
Because it is easier to say Catholic Church.
Not all inerrantists are young earth creationists. But why, in any case, should association with young earth creationism be insulting?
I just think it’s reasonable to ask why you would make the worst possible interpretation of Orthodox and Catholic beliefs, given the prevalence, past and present, of these beliefs that you find so offensive. Could it just possibly be that you are misinterpreting the beliefs of most Christians?
I’m sorry. It was a simple mistake. “Brian” is a common spelling, whereas “Jeen” is not, so no, I wouldn’t expect you to make a similar mistake.
I don’t think that all Protestants should be young earth creationists, and most aren’t. Obviously their understanding of the inerrancy of Scripture permits otherwise.
Not really. Their understanding of the meaning of Scripture permits otherwise.
Not that there’s anything wrong with young earth creationism.
Oh, I have no difficulty in granting that that they make you uncomfortable. No one is trying to coerce you into practicing anything you find uncomfortable. But you should expect that most Christians will be offended when they are told that what they believe and practice is pagan or nearly so. Since most Christians, past and present, engage in these practices that you find pagan or close to pagan, wouldn’t it occur to you that perhaps your interpretation is mistaken?
I have no problem with that whatsoever. I have a problem with your labeling the beliefs of the vast majority of Christians as pagan or “too close to pagan”. Does that surprise you? If so, why?
It is ignoring the evidence. or postulating God is a jerk for rigging the books.