The Veneration, or Not, of the Saints

 

The topic of veneration is a bit of a challenge for me, as the first association I have with the word is the veneration of saints. I’m Lutheran though, and Lutherans don’t venerate saints; we’re kinda famous for not doing so.  If you’ll indulge a flippant over-simplification, we don’t think God is an officious bureaucrat who requires all the relevant department heads to sign off on a request before fulfilling it or a lazy kid who won’t do his chores until his mom nags him.

That being said, we do still have a place for saints in our worship. They are for our education and edification, if not our veneration.  My Liber Hymnorum, a hymnal of Latin hymns used by the early Lutheran church, describes a year of saintly feasts, from St. Sebastian on January 20th to the Holy Innocents on December 28th, with stops for St. Gregory in March, St. Anne in July, and St. Michael and All Angels in September, as well as about a dozen others. The Brotherhood Prayer Book, a Lutheran breviary, lists dozens more notable church fathers and mothers whose feast day is a chance for honoring and remembering their extraordinary lives, including doctors of the church like John Chrysostom, Anselm of Canterbury, Bede the Venerable, and Augustine of Hippo.  (If you see a St. Martin Lutheran Church, it is recognizing Martin of Tours, not Mr. Luther.)

On these special occasions, we have special hymns and collects, e.g. the collect for the Feast of St. Peter and St. Paul includes “O God, who didst give Thine Apostles Peter and Paul grace to lay down their lives for the sake of Thy dear Son : endow us, we beseech Thee, with like constancy, that we may at all times be ready to lay down our lives.” The standard saint’s festival hymn for LCMS congregations is “By All Your Saints in Warfare,” 517-518. Yes, that’s one hymn — 28 verses over four pages. The first and third verses are always the same; the second is the one responsive to the day, whether verse 4 “Saints and Martyrs (general)” sung on All Saints’ or verse 22 “St. Mary, Mother of Our Lord” sung on my birthday.

It may not be veneration, but we Lutherans still have a place for saints.

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  1. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    danok1 (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    This is saying something different than I am saying. Saints are treated as minor deities. Praying to them in their specific areas is no different from pagan worship. There are lots of other Catholic things that strike me as that as well. Best I can tell, no matter how clear I am about why that is, I am told I misunderstand. I don’t misunderstand. Saints are used as minor gods, and example was show in this thread. That is how they are used. I recoil at that. It is at best, superstitious nonsense. At worst. Well, I won’t go there.

    I don’t think we’ll ever see eye-to-eye on this, but let me make one more argument/example.

    Nektarios the Wonderworker of Aegina was known during his earthly life for healing many people, particularly those suffering from cancer. We can say the Holy Spirit gave him this gift of healing. When people came to him and asked him to pray for their healing, or to heal them, were they treating him as a minor deity? Or as a holy man blessed with a gift?

    Now that he’s gone to join the Church Triumphant, why wouldn’t we still ask him to pray for us, or to pray for our healing, as the Apostle James instructs us?

    They were treating him in life as a holy man with power. That is no different than a pagan going to a shaman, as it were. I have no problem with asking anyone to pray for me. I have not been against that at all. I am against the idea that Saints have areas of responsibility and that you go to that Saint for their area of expertise. 

     

    • #61
  2. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    I will not treat dead humans as minor deities.

    Where do you get this idea that Catholics treat saints as minor deities? That is absurd.

    The use of the statute and selling houses mentioned by someone else in this thread is exactly where I get that sort of idea. Go back and read that bit again. 

    And the saints aren’t dead – they are alive in Christ, having gained eternal life.

    I believe you are a member of the United Methodist Church? The UMC prays a form of the Apostles Creed where you claim belief in the communion of saints. What does this mean to you and your church?

    I don’t see where I have, in anyway, gone against that. 

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    The great joy of the Reformation is that I can follow practices that fit with my understanding of the mystery of God.

    So you follow in the footsteps of Pope Francis, of whom one of his advisors said:

    Pope Francis breaks Catholic traditions whenever he wants because he is “free from disordered attachments.” Our Church has indeed entered a new phase: with the advent of this first Jesuit pope, it is openly ruled by an individual rather than by the authority of Scripture alone or even its own dictates of tradition plus Scripture.

    In other words you guys can ignore 2000 years of Christianity and make it up as you go along?

    Like many Protestants, I don’t think the Catholic Church is the final authority on my faith. Note, you are quick to jump on any catagorization I make about the Catholic Church practices following pagan principles, but yet, you, and other Catholics are quick to cast any statement I make about wanting to find my own path to God as “making it up as you go along”. 

    So, you can recoil from the idea that I can search for God without a Priest or Pope, and I can recoil from practices that look pagan. Seems fair to me.

     

    • #62
  3. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):
    Nor was she a great miracle-worker. But is she a saint? He certainly says so, and who am I to say otherwise?

    One may well argue that anyone in the Church Triumphant is a Saint.

    Do you know what is meant by the term “the Church Triumphant”? It refers to the saints in heaven. So yes, anyone in the Church Triumphant is, by definition, a saint. There’s nothing to argue here. You’re stating a position that Catholics and the Orthodox both hold.

    It refers to everyone in Heaven:

    • the Church Triumphant (Latin: Ecclesia triumphans), which consists of those who have the beatific vision and are in Heaven.

    Yup. So what’s your beef?

    Treating Saints with areas of responsibility. Example Practice with a statue already given by someone else. 

    • #63
  4. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

     

    “Praying” to me, is reserved for God. Period. End of story. No one else gets prayed too.

    You seem to be conflating “praying” with “worship”. Praying is simply asking earnestly, intently. If you have ever read older English works such as Shakespeare, you will see “pray” used quite commonly.

     

    Yes. And, as I said above, I, and I would wager most people, don’t use it that way anymore.

     

    I don’t agree. Sure, we might not use it as frequently as people might have in the past, but we still have phrases such as “pray tell me” in common usage. Nor do most people, I believe, think that if they ask someone to pray for them, that they’re turning that person into God or are worshipping them.

    We can disagree on usage. Never in my life have I head someone say “Pray to Bob” and I have heard “Pray to Mary”.

    • #64
  5. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    This is saying something different than I am saying. Saints are treated as minor deities. Praying to them in their specific areas is no different from pagan worship.

    Then most Christians, both past and present, are pagans in your eyes because both Catholics and the Orthodox venerate the saints. Quite a large condemnation on your part.

    There are lots of other Catholic things that strike me as that as well.

    The Orthodox share most Catholic doctrine and practices. Do you think they’re pagan too?

    Best I can tell, no matter how clear I am about why that is, I am told I misunderstand. I don’t misunderstand. Saints are used as minor gods, and example was show in this thread. That is how they are used. I recoil at that. It is at best, superstitious nonsense. At worst. Well, I won’t go there.

    Gosh, Jean, you do so like to take what I say and argue I said something else when it comes to faith. I did not call anyone “pagan” I said their practices look pagan. Totally different, and clearly what I said. 

    I do believe that the practices border on violation of the Graven Images and Putting No other God before God, yeah. You can think leaving a Church is a Mortal Sin, and I can think as I do. 

     

    • #65
  6. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Amy Schley (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):
    the pilgrims coming to America were fleeing your fellow Protestants, not the Catholic or Orthodox churches.

    And they were fleeing those Protestants because the Church of England wasn’t totalitarianly theocratic enough for their taste.

    But we’ve had this argument before: Bryan thinks the Reformation is awesome even though every Christian thinker of the time — Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant — would consider his denomination a heresy, if not outright apostacy.

    Yes! It led to today. 

     

    • #66
  7. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Amy Schley (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):
    the pilgrims coming to America were fleeing your fellow Protestants, not the Catholic or Orthodox churches.

    And they were fleeing those Protestants because the Church of England wasn’t totalitarianly theocratic enough for their taste.

    But we’ve had this argument before: Bryan thinks the Reformation is awesome even though every Christian thinker of the time — Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant — would consider his denomination a heresy, if not outright apostacy.

    Yes, we have had this discussion before, haven’t we?!!

    I just can’t see how someone who wants to write off the majority of Christians, past and present, as little more than pagans has much to say that I can attribute to thoughtful, respectful consideration.

     

    Had I said that, you would have a point. I did not say that, though I guess that is what you want me to have said. 

    • #67
  8. SkipSul Inactive
    SkipSul
    @skipsul

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    They were treating him in life as a holy man with power. That is no different than a pagan going to a shaman, as it were.

    Actually, it’s worlds-away different.  

    What do you make of the accounts of the Apostles healing and casting out demons in Acts?  

    • #68
  9. danok1 Member
    danok1
    @danok1

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    They were treating him in life as a holy man with power. That is no different than a pagan going to a shaman, as it were.

    Okay. I’m going to have to bow out of this thread. I don’t want to end up saying something uncharitable.

    • #69
  10. SkipSul Inactive
    SkipSul
    @skipsul

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    It is the same with objecting to the notion I raised above:

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Put another way, the central issue is over whether we believe these postulates about those who have died physically
    A) They are Alive in Christ, and
    B) Capable of hearing us.

    If you do not believe that a Christian, once dead, is (even if alive in Christ) able to hear us and pray for us, then of course the entire issue of saints is moot, and that’s the end of the discussion and there’s no need to go further.

    If you object to postulate B, then fine and be done. But to bring in that some have misused saints is not to invalidate B, only to point out errors in application of what follows.

    This is saying something different than I am saying.

    And it bears repeating because it is a point to which I would like you to respond.  I fear you are condemning everything because of what misuse you have seen in practice, but avoiding the theological question.  So I’ll ask directly:

    1.  Do you ask others to pray for you?  Why or Why Not?
    2. Are those who have died on Earth, but alive in Christ, able at all to hear us?

    Without settling those questions, the rest of the debate is rather moot with you.  If your answer to 2 is “No”, then why argue over whether or not you understand the practice, or its misuse?

    • #70
  11. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    It is the same with objecting to the notion I raised above:

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Put another way, the central issue is over whether we believe these postulates about those who have died physically
    A) They are Alive in Christ, and
    B) Capable of hearing us.

    If you do not believe that a Christian, once dead, is (even if alive in Christ) able to hear us and pray for us, then of course the entire issue of saints is moot, and that’s the end of the discussion and there’s no need to go further.

    If you object to postulate B, then fine and be done. But to bring in that some have misused saints is not to invalidate B, only to point out errors in application of what follows.

    This is saying something different than I am saying.

    And it bears repeating because it is a point to which I would like you to respond. I fear you are condemning everything because of what misuse you have seen in practice, but avoiding the theological question. So I’ll ask directly:

    1. Do you ask others to pray for you? Why or Why Not?
    2. Are those who have died on Earth, but alive in Christ, able at all to hear us?

    Without settling those questions, the rest of the debate is rather moot with you. If your answer to 2 is “No”, then why argue over whether or not you understand the practice, or its misuse?

     

     

    1. Yes because it makes me feel connected to a greater whole
    2. I have no idea at all. 

    There is not a debate here.  I don’t like how Saints are treated by the Catholic faith because its practice is too close to pagan practice. Period, end of sentence. End of point. I am not calling anyone pagan. I am not saying anyone is engaged in a mortal sin. I would not want to engage in those things because it does not sit well with me. 

     

     

    • #71
  12. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    danok1 (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    They were treating him in life as a holy man with power. That is no different than a pagan going to a shaman, as it were.

    Okay. I’m going to have to bow out of this thread. I don’t want to end up saying something uncharitable.

    How is it different? How is the actions of the person going to the Man of God different than the actions of a person going to the Shaman? It is the same set of behaviors. Both people are seeking spiritual power and healing. Both men are saying they are a conduit between the spiritual and earthly realms. 

    I don’t find the fact that humans engage in similar rituals to be a problem, which is good, because it is a fact. I believe our brains latch on to certain things in certain ways. And the urge to try to make Heaven look like Earth is a big one. 

    • #72
  13. SkipSul Inactive
    SkipSul
    @skipsul

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    Yes because it makes me feel connected to a greater whole

    Does such prayer accomplish anything beyond that?  What does prayer do?

    • #73
  14. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):
    Nor was she a great miracle-worker. But is she a saint? He certainly says so, and who am I to say otherwise?

    One may well argue that anyone in the Church Triumphant is a Saint.

    Do you know what is meant by the term “the Church Triumphant”? It refers to the saints in heaven. So yes, anyone in the Church Triumphant is, by definition, a saint. There’s nothing to argue here. You’re stating a position that Catholics and the Orthodox both hold.

    It refers to everyone in Heaven:

    • the Church Triumphant (Latin: Ecclesia triumphans), which consists of those who have the beatific vision and are in Heaven.

    Yup. So what’s your beef?

    Treating Saints with areas of responsibility. Example Practice with a statue already given by someone else.

    And it has already been pointed out that that is a silly, superstitious act by an individual. It’s not the teaching of the Church. As for “areas of responsibility” – a term not used by Catholics or the Orthodox – what do you mean?

    • #74
  15. SkipSul Inactive
    SkipSul
    @skipsul

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    How is it different? How is the actions of the person going to the Man of God different than the actions of a person going to the Shaman?

    SkipSul (View Comment):
    What do you make of the accounts of the Apostles healing and casting out demons in Acts?

    Before addressing your question, I’m curious what you have to say about the Apostles, and about their miracles.

    • #75
  16. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    I will not treat dead humans as minor deities.

    Where do you get this idea that Catholics treat saints as minor deities? That is absurd.

    The use of the statute and selling houses mentioned by someone else in this thread is exactly where I get that sort of idea. Go back and read that bit again.

    And the saints aren’t dead – they are alive in Christ, having gained eternal life.

    I believe you are a member of the United Methodist Church? The UMC prays a form of the Apostles Creed where you claim belief in the communion of saints. What does this mean to you and your church?

    I don’t see where I have, in anyway, gone against that.

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    The great joy of the Reformation is that I can follow practices that fit with my understanding of the mystery of God.

    So you follow in the footsteps of Pope Francis, of whom one of his advisors said:

    Pope Francis breaks Catholic traditions whenever he wants because he is “free from disordered attachments.” Our Church has indeed entered a new phase: with the advent of this first Jesuit pope, it is openly ruled by an individual rather than by the authority of Scripture alone or even its own dictates of tradition plus Scripture.

    In other words you guys can ignore 2000 years of Christianity and make it up as you go along?

    Like many Protestants, I don’t think the Catholic Church is the final authority on my faith. Note, you are quick to jump on any catagorization I make about the Catholic Church practices following pagan principles, but yet, you, and other Catholics are quick to cast any statement I make about wanting to find my own path to God as “making it up as you go along”.

    So, you can recoil from the idea that I can search for God without a Priest or Pope, and I can recoil from practices that look pagan. Seems fair to me.

     

    Then you are recoiling from the beliefs and practice of the majority of Christians from the earliest times. The Orthodox have the same beliefs and practices of the Catholic Church in this regard. Frankly, I think it is the height of arrogance to call most Christians pagans, which is what you are essentially doing. 

    • #76
  17. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):
    Nor was she a great miracle-worker. But is she a saint? He certainly says so, and who am I to say otherwise?

    One may well argue that anyone in the Church Triumphant is a Saint.

    Do you know what is meant by the term “the Church Triumphant”? It refers to the saints in heaven. So yes, anyone in the Church Triumphant is, by definition, a saint. There’s nothing to argue here. You’re stating a position that Catholics and the Orthodox both hold.

    It refers to everyone in Heaven:

    • the Church Triumphant (Latin: Ecclesia triumphans), which consists of those who have the beatific vision and are in Heaven.

    Yup. So what’s your beef?

    Treating Saints with areas of responsibility. Example Practice with a statue already given by someone else.

    And it has already been pointed out that that is a silly, superstitious act by an individual. It’s not the teaching of the Church. As for “areas of responsibility” – a term not used by Catholics or the Orthodox – what do you mean?

    Patron Saint of X. Whatever X is is their area of responsibility. Like Ministers for a King. I am now repeating myself. 

     

    • #77
  18. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    It is the same with objecting to the notion I raised above:

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Put another way, the central issue is over whether we believe these postulates about those who have died physically
    A) They are Alive in Christ, and
    B) Capable of hearing us.

    If you do not believe that a Christian, once dead, is (even if alive in Christ) able to hear us and pray for us, then of course the entire issue of saints is moot, and that’s the end of the discussion and there’s no need to go further.

    If you object to postulate B, then fine and be done. But to bring in that some have misused saints is not to invalidate B, only to point out errors in application of what follows.

    This is saying something different than I am saying.

    And it bears repeating because it is a point to which I would like you to respond. I fear you are condemning everything because of what misuse you have seen in practice, but avoiding the theological question. So I’ll ask directly:

    1. Do you ask others to pray for you? Why or Why Not?
    2. Are those who have died on Earth, but alive in Christ, able at all to hear us?

    Without settling those questions, the rest of the debate is rather moot with you. If your answer to 2 is “No”, then why argue over whether or not you understand the practice, or its misuse?

    1. Yes because it makes me feel connected to a greater whole
    2. I have no idea at all.

    There is not a debate here. I don’t like how Saints are treated by the Catholic faith because its practice is too close to pagan practice. Period, end of sentence. End of point. I am not calling anyone pagan. I am not saying anyone is engaged in a mortal sin. I would not want to engage in those things because it does not sit well with me.

    You keep referring to the Catholic Church, but the Orthodox Churches share the same beliefs in this area. Why are you always forgetting the Orthodox? If you combine the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, you are talking about the vast majority of Christians practicing pagan acts.

    • #78
  19. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    How is it different? How is the actions of the person going to the Man of God different than the actions of a person going to the Shaman?

    SkipSul (View Comment):
    What do you make of the accounts of the Apostles healing and casting out demons in Acts?

    Before addressing your question, I’m curious what you have to say about the Apostles, and about their miracles.

    I am not sure what you are asking here. Let me approach it this way:

    If the Bible stories are to be believed, there are people with powers to transform and change, not getting that power from God. The mages making their staves into snakes comes to mind. God showed them (through Moses). So the form or the behavior of miracles being performed is not unique to Men (or Women) of God. I am not sure where the mages in Egypt got their power, though my guess is from Lucifer. 

    That may or many not answer your question. 

    • #79
  20. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Also, Brian, although you self-identity as a Protestant, elsewhere you have stated that you don’t believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. This is one of the pillars of Protestantism that you are throwing off – are you sure you are a Protestant? That you are a Christian, I make no doubt, but why do you call yourself a Protestant when you reject a basic tenet of it? 

    • #80
  21. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Scott Wilmot (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    I will not treat dead humans as minor deities.

    Where do you get this idea that Catholics treat saints as minor deities? That is absurd.

    The use of the statute and selling houses mentioned by someone else in this thread is exactly where I get that sort of idea. Go back and read that bit again.

    And the saints aren’t dead – they are alive in Christ, having gained eternal life.

    I believe you are a member of the United Methodist Church? The UMC prays a form of the Apostles Creed where you claim belief in the communion of saints. What does this mean to you and your church?

    I don’t see where I have, in anyway, gone against that.

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    The great joy of the Reformation is that I can follow practices that fit with my understanding of the mystery of God.

    So you follow in the footsteps of Pope Francis, of whom one of his advisors said:

    Pope Francis breaks Catholic traditions whenever he wants because he is “free from disordered attachments.” Our Church has indeed entered a new phase: with the advent of this first Jesuit pope, it is openly ruled by an individual rather than by the authority of Scripture alone or even its own dictates of tradition plus Scripture.

    In other words you guys can ignore 2000 years of Christianity and make it up as you go along?

    Like many Protestants, I don’t think the Catholic Church is the final authority on my faith. Note, you are quick to jump on any catagorization I make about the Catholic Church practices following pagan principles, but yet, you, and other Catholics are quick to cast any statement I make about wanting to find my own path to God as “making it up as you go along”.

    So, you can recoil from the idea that I can search for God without a Priest or Pope, and I can recoil from practices that look pagan. Seems fair to me.

     

    Then you are recoiling from the beliefs and practice of the majority of Christians from the earliest times. The Orthodox have the same beliefs and practices of the Catholic Church in this regard. Frankly, I think it is the height of arrogance to call most Christians pagans, which is what you are essentially doing.

    I am not calling most Christians pagans. You can hear that all you want, but that does not make it true. Further, you do me the disservice of assuming I do not mean what I say, something you have done before on this subject. Please stop telling me what I am saying, when I am telling you, clearly, that is not what I am saying.

    And for the record, who the heck cares if I was calling Christians pagans? Why on Earth does that so offend you? Is your faith that threatened? I think it is the height of arrogance for an organization composed of men to say that they have a final authority on what I should believe. The difference between us is, I don’t care what you believe, and you seem to be very offended at what I believe. 

    • #81
  22. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    It is the same with objecting to the notion I raised above:

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Put another way, the central issue is over whether we believe these postulates about those who have died physically
    A) They are Alive in Christ, and
    B) Capable of hearing us.

    If you do not believe that a Christian, once dead, is (even if alive in Christ) able to hear us and pray for us, then of course the entire issue of saints is moot, and that’s the end of the discussion and there’s no need to go further.

    If you object to postulate B, then fine and be done. But to bring in that some have misused saints is not to invalidate B, only to point out errors in application of what follows.

    This is saying something different than I am saying.

    And it bears repeating because it is a point to which I would like you to respond. I fear you are condemning everything because of what misuse you have seen in practice, but avoiding the theological question. So I’ll ask directly:

    1. Do you ask others to pray for you? Why or Why Not?
    2. Are those who have died on Earth, but alive in Christ, able at all to hear us?

    Without settling those questions, the rest of the debate is rather moot with you. If your answer to 2 is “No”, then why argue over whether or not you understand the practice, or its misuse?

    1. Yes because it makes me feel connected to a greater whole
    2. I have no idea at all.

    There is not a debate here. I don’t like how Saints are treated by the Catholic faith because its practice is too close to pagan practice. Period, end of sentence. End of point. I am not calling anyone pagan. I am not saying anyone is engaged in a mortal sin. I would not want to engage in those things because it does not sit well with me.

    You keep referring to the Catholic Church, but the Orthodox Churches share the same beliefs in this area. Why are you always forgetting the Orthodox? If you combine the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, you are talking about the vast majority of Christians practicing pagan acts.

    Practicing acts that seem are too close to pagan acts for my personal comfort. Can you not even grant me that? They make me uncomfortable. Why do you care about that? 

    You are like someone telling me I “should” not be upset when something happens that upsets me. Prayer is between me and God, and that is more than I can manage right now. I don’t need anyone else in on it. This is what works for me

    • #82
  23. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Also, Brian, although you self-identity as a Protestant, elsewhere you have stated that you don’t believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. This is one of the pillars of Protestantism that you are throwing off – are you sure you are a Protestant? That you are a Christian, I make no doubt, but why do you call yourself a Protestant when you reject a basic tenet of it?

    First off, my name is spelled, Bryan. Since that is in every post, I find it hard to believe you cannot spell it right. I don’t refer to you as Jeen, do I?

    Second, I guess you are saying that all Protestants should be young earth creationists. Wow. How insulting. I guess only Catholics (and Orthodox) believe in Science and all us Protestants don’t. 

    • #83
  24. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Painter Jean (View Comment):
    You keep referring to the Catholic Church, but the Orthodox Churches share the same beliefs in this area. Why are you always forgetting the Orthodox?

    Because it is easier to say Catholic Church. 

    • #84
  25. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Also, Brian, although you self-identity as a Protestant, elsewhere you have stated that you don’t believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. This is one of the pillars of Protestantism that you are throwing off – are you sure you are a Protestant? That you are a Christian, I make no doubt, but why do you call yourself a Protestant when you reject a basic tenet of it?

    First off, my name is spelled, Bryan. Since that is in every post, I find it hard to believe you cannot spell it right. I don’t refer to you as Jeen, do I?

    Second, I guess you are saying that all Protestants should be young earth creationists. Wow. How insulting. I guess only Catholics (and Orthodox) believe in Science and all us Protestants don’t.

    Not all inerrantists are young earth creationists.  But why, in any case, should association with young earth creationism be insulting?

    • #85
  26. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    It is the same with objecting to the notion I raised above:

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Put another way, the central issue is over whether we believe these postulates about those who have died physically
    A) They are Alive in Christ, and
    B) Capable of hearing us.

    If you do not believe that a Christian, once dead, is (even if alive in Christ) able to hear us and pray for us, then of course the entire issue of saints is moot, and that’s the end of the discussion and there’s no need to go further.

    If you object to postulate B, then fine and be done. But to bring in that some have misused saints is not to invalidate B, only to point out errors in application of what follows.

    This is saying something different than I am saying.

    And it bears repeating because it is a point to which I would like you to respond. I fear you are condemning everything because of what misuse you have seen in practice, but avoiding the theological question. So I’ll ask directly:

    1. Do you ask others to pray for you? Why or Why Not?
    2. Are those who have died on Earth, but alive in Christ, able at all to hear us?

    There is not a debate here. I don’t like how Saints are treated by the Catholic faith because its practice is too close to pagan practice. Period, end of sentence. End of point. I am not calling anyone pagan. I am not saying anyone is engaged in a mortal sin. I would not want to engage in those things because it does not sit well with me.

    You keep referring to the Catholic Church, but the Orthodox Churches share the same beliefs in this area. Why are you always forgetting the Orthodox? If you combine the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, you are talking about the vast majority of Christians practicing pagan acts.

    Practicing acts that seem are too close to pagan acts for my personal comfort. Can you not even grant me that? They make me uncomfortable. Why do you care about that?

    You are like someone telling me I “should” not be upset when something happens that upsets me. Prayer is between me and God, and that is more than I can manage right now. I don’t need anyone else in on it. This is what works for me.

    I just think it’s reasonable to ask why you would make the worst possible interpretation of Orthodox and Catholic beliefs, given the prevalence, past and present, of these beliefs that you find so offensive. Could it just possibly be that you are misinterpreting the beliefs of most Christians?

    • #86
  27. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Also, Brian, although you self-identity as a Protestant, elsewhere you have stated that you don’t believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. This is one of the pillars of Protestantism that you are throwing off – are you sure you are a Protestant? That you are a Christian, I make no doubt, but why do you call yourself a Protestant when you reject a basic tenet of it?

    First off, my name is spelled, Bryan. Since that is in every post, I find it hard to believe you cannot spell it right. I don’t refer to you as Jeen, do I?

    Second, I guess you are saying that all Protestants should be young earth creationists. Wow. How insulting. I guess only Catholics (and Orthodox) believe in Science and all us Protestants don’t.

    I’m sorry. It was a simple mistake. “Brian” is a common spelling, whereas “Jeen” is not, so no, I wouldn’t expect you to make a similar mistake.

    I don’t think that all Protestants should be young earth creationists, and most aren’t. Obviously their understanding of the inerrancy of Scripture permits otherwise. 

     

    • #87
  28. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    I don’t think that all Protestants should be young earth creationists, and most aren’t. Obviously their understanding of the inerrancy of Scripture permits otherwise.

    Not really.  Their understanding of the meaning of Scripture permits otherwise.

    Not that there’s anything wrong with young earth creationism.

    • #88
  29. Painter Jean Moderator
    Painter Jean
    @PainterJean

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    It is the same with objecting to the notion I raised above:

    SkipSul (View Comment):

    Put another way, the central issue is over whether we believe these postulates about those who have died physically
    A) They are Alive in Christ, and
    B) Capable of hearing us.

    If you do not believe that a Christian, once dead, is (even if alive in Christ) able to hear us and pray for us, then of course the entire issue of saints is moot, and that’s the end of the discussion and there’s no need to go further.

    If you object to postulate B, then fine and be done. But to bring in that some have misused saints is not to invalidate B, only to point out errors in application of what follows.

    This is saying something different than I am saying.

    And it bears repeating because it is a point to which I would like you to respond. I fear you are condemning everything because of what misuse you have seen in practice, but avoiding the theological question. So I’ll ask directly:

    1. Do you ask others to pray for you? Why or Why Not?
    2. Are those who have died on Earth, but alive in Christ, able at all to hear us?

    Without settling those questions, the rest of the debate is rather moot with you. If your answer to 2 is “No”, then why argue over whether or not you understand the practice, or its misuse?

    1. Yes because it makes me feel connected to a greater whole
    2. I have no idea at all.

     

     

    Practicing acts that seem are too close to pagan acts for my personal comfort. Can you not even grant me that? They make me uncomfortable. Why do you care about that?

    Oh, I have no difficulty in granting that that they make you uncomfortable. No one is trying to coerce you into practicing anything you find uncomfortable. But you should expect that most Christians will be offended when they are told that what they believe and practice is pagan or nearly so. Since most Christians, past and present, engage in these practices that you find pagan or close to pagan, wouldn’t it occur to you that perhaps your interpretation is mistaken? 

    You are like someone telling me I “should” not be upset when something happens that upsets me. Prayer is between me and God, and that is more than I can manage right now. I don’t need anyone else in on it. This is what works for me.

    I have no problem with that whatsoever. I have a problem with your labeling the beliefs of the vast majority of Christians as pagan or “too close to pagan”. Does that surprise you? If so, why?

     

    • #89
  30. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Painter Jean (View Comment):

    Also, Brian, although you self-identity as a Protestant, elsewhere you have stated that you don’t believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. This is one of the pillars of Protestantism that you are throwing off – are you sure you are a Protestant? That you are a Christian, I make no doubt, but why do you call yourself a Protestant when you reject a basic tenet of it?

    First off, my name is spelled, Bryan. Since that is in every post, I find it hard to believe you cannot spell it right. I don’t refer to you as Jeen, do I?

    Second, I guess you are saying that all Protestants should be young earth creationists. Wow. How insulting. I guess only Catholics (and Orthodox) believe in Science and all us Protestants don’t.

    Not all inerrantists are young earth creationists. But why, in any case, should association with young earth creationism be insulting?

    It is ignoring the evidence. or postulating God is a jerk for rigging the books. 

    • #90
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