Bankruptcy and the Boy Scouts

 

This morning, I caught a squib in The Wall Street Journal reporting that the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) is contemplating filing for bankruptcy as a consequence of “dwindling membership and escalating legal costs related to lawsuits over how it handled allegations of sex abuse.”

I was aware of the decline in participation and I had a pretty good understanding of some of the causes. But I had somehow missed the fact that there was a sex abuse scandal — perhaps because 27 years have passed since it was exposed in The Washington Times and 24 since Patrick Boyle published his book on the subject: Scout’s Honor: Sexual Abuse in America’s Most Trusted Institution.

The article in The Wall Street Journal was strangely reticent. It did not specify what species of sexual abuse was involved. When I turned to Wikipedia, which has a good entry summarizing what Boyle and his colleagues at The Washington Times turned up, I discovered that what I suspected was true — that the misconduct involved was very much like that which plagued the Roman Catholic Church worldwide in the five decades preceding 2001. Prior to 1988 — when, in response to the problem, the BSA set up its Youth Protection Program — there had been quite a number of scoutmasters and others involved in scouting who had abused the trust of the boys and young men under their care for the purpose of sexual gratification. Put simply, in those years, pederasty was almost as much a problem for the Boy Scouts as it was for the Roman Catholic Church.

The reticence evident in The Wall Street Journal article appears to stem from the political correctness of its author and, perhaps, her editor. Here is the last paragraph in the print-edition version: “The Boy Scouts group has drawn scrutiny over its slow pace to become more inclusive, including by lifting a ban in 2015 on gay men and lesbians serving in leadership roles.”

Take a moment and read that last sentence twice. Then, ask yourself what was the sexual orientation of the scoutmasters and the others involved with the BSA who abused the boys. I do not mean to suggest that all or even most of those who are homoerotically inclined are prone to the abuse of minors. I know that this is untrue. But I would suggest that heterosexually inclined men are a much safer bet.

If this claim causes you to recoil, I suggest that you ask yourself this. Suppose that you had a child — say, a pretty daughter — who was in her early teen years, and suppose that you and your spouse were going out for an evening or away for a weekend. Would you think twice before hiring a high school or college boy to look after her?

That is, you might say, a no-brainer. To hire a young man is to risk letting the fox into the hen house. Given the fact that human beings can stand up to almost anything other than temptation, the prudent thing to do would be to hire a caretaker who is most unlikely to find your daughter alluring.

In 2015, under the leadership of  Robert M. Gates and Rex W. Tillerson, the Boy Scouts of America surrendered to the Zeitgeist and did what you would never do: they invited those most apt to be foxes into the hen house. Later, the BSA opened its programs to girls and transsexual boys. For the Mormons, who were major contributors to scouting, this was the last straw, and it is their withdrawal that has brought the BSA to its knees. First, in the interests of political correctness, came moral bankruptcy. It looks as if financial bankruptcy will follow.

The Boy Scouts once had a noble mission — the formation of vigorous, manly, virtuous men at home in the great outdoors. I know something about this. I was myself an Eagle Scout. Now, however, thanks to a corporate culture in the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s less interested in protecting young people than in covering up scandals and thanks also to the moral weakness in 2015 of a former Secretary of Defense and a future Secretary of State, it completely lost its way. The demise of the Boy Scouts is a sign of the miserable times in which we now live.

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  1. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Barfly (View Comment):

    Paul and Brian, it seems y’all may be talking past each other. What I took from Bryan’s comment is that while the Boy Scouts have adopted highly inclusive membership and leadership policies, they’ve taken reasonable and effective measures to keep sex out of Scouting.

    Bryan, I specifically got the impression from your comment that there are no M/F mixed troops – Is that correct? (I suppose there must be troops and patrols of mixed sexuality, but as you point out that’s always been the case.

    I have to note that the comments here by people currently involved in Scouting seem to come from a different set of facts from those lamenting its fall. Had I not read Bryan’s comment I’d have been in the latter camp, having no more idea of the truth than what I read in the papers. Even “conservative” journalists lie – it’s part of the condition of being a journalist, I’m afraid.

     

    Yes, there are No Mixed Troops at Scouting: BSA which used to be called “Boy Scouts”. Each Troop has its own Patrol Leader Council, Adult Leadership, which must have some Females. Any Girl Troop activity requires two female leader over the age of 21. Any Boy Troop requires two Male leaders over 21. 

    Cub Packs can be mixed, but not Dens. The Girls are in their own dens.

    Venture Units have been mixed for decades, and somehow, BSA did not come to an end. 

    And if I was not clear enough before, I want gay youth to be able to experience Scouting. I take it that Paul, et. al. don’t. 

    I also think that most Gay men are more than capable of supervising boys without preying on them. 

     

    • #31
  2. Seawriter Contributor
    Seawriter
    @Seawriter

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    I also think that most Gay men are more than capable of supervising boys without preying on them.

    That’s nice. So what’s an acceptable level of gay men preying on boys? 10%? 1%?

    If even 1% of gay adult scout leaders prey on the boys that is an awful lot of sexually-abused children. In 2010 there were 515,344 adult leaders in scouting. If the gays were distributed among scout leaders as they are in the general population that means there are nearly 26,000 gay scout leaders. Which means 260 troops with boys at risk of molestation if only 5% of the scout leaders are gay and only 1% of gay scout leaders are interested in preying on boys.

    Is exposing boys in 260 troops acceptable? Every year? Again, that is best case, because pedophiles tend to gravitate to where children are.

    I can tell you the percentage of straight men that are going to sexually prey on boys: 0%.

    • #32
  3. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Can’t we all just get along? 

    • #33
  4. Paul A. Rahe Member
    Paul A. Rahe
    @PaulARahe

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Paul A. Rahe (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Paul A. Rahe (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I do not think that BSA has completely lost its way. I am a proud Assistant Scoutmaster, and I will be the Chartered Organization Representative for our Troop starting in January. I am an Eagle Scout, and my son earned his Eagle in August. I can say that BSA continues to teach young people about civic and personal responsibility and duty to God.

    Scouting has long served girls, in its Venturing program, and in Explorers before that. At Philmont, we encountered several mixed groups. Cub Scouts has long been a family program, with Girls tagging along and participating, they just did not get to earn any badges. My daughter would have loved the recognition. I suppose, conservatives think that they should still be shut out.

    Next year, Girl Troops (not mixed units) will be able to form, and at long last, Girls will be able to participate in Scouting fully. Just like every other form of Scouting in the world other than Saudi Arabia, that great bastion of oppressing women. The program will not change for the boys. We will still go camping, still teach what is important. Girls will now have an option other than the Girl Scouts of America, which is wholly captured by the Left. BSA is not so captured, and I do not see it being so captured. I see this expansion as a good thing. It is not a sign of weakness nor a surrender. It is a change. If being conservative means rejecting all change, then I am not one.

    Perhaps, conservatives think that gay boys (since it is clear you don’t want girls) should be denied what BSA has to offer. I am sure that before the change there were never any gay boys in BSA, right? Of course there were. And were their gay scoutmasters? I am sure they were. Also divorced ones, and ones who cheated on their wives, and had sex outside of marriage. And who cursed and smoked. Why is being gay such a worse sin than being divorced? Both are admonished in the Bible. Somehow, conservatives are fine with no fault divorce, but still against people being gay. One is a choice, and one is at least partially not.

    However, I am in danger of getting off track. BSA has a policy of no tobacco use, no alcohol or drug use around Scouts. Scouts of more than 2 years of age difference may not share a tent. Boys and Girls may not share a tent (outside of family camping with siblings). In all events, there must be 2 adults 21 or older, fully trained, and never, never, may any adult be with a youth who is not their child. They may not tent with them, even if one is 17 and one is 18. Every adult on an outing must complete a youth protection program. Scouting is not trying to cover things up, it took steps to make changes, steps I add, the Catholic Church appears unable to take to this day. Boy Scouts do not have groups of leaders having gay orgies as seen within the Catholic Church. So yes there are lawsuits, and yes BSA is defending itself.

    From an expert on this sort of thing:

    This is actually a lot more common than you might think. It is especially true with widespread consumer product issues. My experience came with mounting asbestos claims from a company that made building products. I was their outside PR guy. What happens is that the lawsuits pile up in state courts – 50 different states, 50 different sets of laws, 50 different legal cultures. Chapter 11 halts new litigation, removes existing litigation to a single federal court typically in Delaware but not always – where it will all be heard by a single judge. The resulting agreement will set aside money for the current plaintiffs and future plaintiffs as well, probably in a trust that is administered by plaintiffs attorneys.

    So BSA is facing financial issues because of lawsuits from over two decades ago. They are acting as a normal business would. This is not because the Mormans have changed their programs. In fact, they will not leave until 2020. Also, how on Earth do you blame the world of today with the world 30 years ago? Talk about stealing a base. What we know, is that in youth programs all over the world, predators prey. There did not used to be precautions. Today, as I outlined above, there are. There is more awareness.

    So, BSA is going “co-ed” by acknowledging the girls already present at the Cub level, as always been Co-Ed for 14+ in some units, and is creating Single Sex Troops in Scouting: BSA. I am happy to have this happen, and I believe had my daughter had a chance to cross over into Scouting, she would be on her way to Eagle too. I worry more about her moral strength than his, because he has had Scouting experience.

    But by all means, let’s look at every change as part of the decay of society. Let’s decry trying to expand who gets to get the benefits of Scouting. Let us write off the only major Youth Organization who teaches civic duty, personal moral duty, and duty to God.

    The Boy Scouts of America that I know still operates and lives by these words:

    Be Prepared!

    Do a Good Turn Daily

    A Scout is:

    • Trustworthy,
    • Loyal,
    • Helpful,
    • Friendly,
    • Courteous,
    • Kind,
    • Obedient,
    • Cheerful,
    • Thrifty,
    • Brave,
    • Clean,
    • and Reverent.

    And the words I try to live by daily (though, sinner than I am I fail often):

    On my honor, I will do my best
    To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
    To help other people at all times;
    To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

    God Bless the Boy Scouts of America

    Bryan, sin was not my theme. I focused on the likelihood of abuse. If we banned sinners, we would be apt to ban everyone. Some sinners are, I would suggest, a far greater danger to young men than others.

    Indeed.

    And, nary a comment on the changes BSA has put in place. Two Deep Leadership is an excellent way to keep everyone safe, youth and adults. Our Troop will not violate it. This is why we send four Trained leaders on every outing, so if something happens to one, we are well covered. The group can split in two, and still be well covered.

    Further, each Charter Organization and Troop is able to make its own choices. So, our Troop can say “No Gay leaders” if we so choose. Isn’t local control on these sorts of things exactly what conservatives call for in government. BSA has taken a “federal” approach. Thus, the local units can decide what they want to do. We don’t have to have a girl troop, anymore than we have to have a Venture program, or the Pack has to take girls into a Girl Den. Freedom of choice and all that.

    I dare say, Paul, that as a Therapist, one who worked in community mental health for 25 years, I know more about sexual predators than most of the people at Ricochet (Ryan M, and Gary R. being up here with me due to their legal work). If all the adults follow the rules, then the predator cannot act. And believe me, we are fast to follow the rules, and chase down people who don’t understand. They are a pain and keep us safe. No parent can come on an event without taking Youth Protection. They don’t get on the bus.

    Boy Scouts of America is a great organization than now can reach more youth. That should be celebrated. It has polices and procedures in place to protect youth and adults. That should be celebrated. It is going to use the law to protect the organization from many lawsuits dealing with the actions of men long gone from BSA. That should be, if not celebrated, understood.

    I admit, BSA’s PR department clearly sucks. They spend their energy on making Scouting great.

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Paul A. Rahe (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    I do not think that BSA has completely lost its way. I am a proud Assistant Scoutmaster, and I will be the Chartered Organization Representative for our Troop starting in January. I am an Eagle Scout, and my son earned his Eagle in August. I can say that BSA continues to teach young people about civic and personal responsibility and duty to God.

    Scouting has long served girls, in its Venturing program, and in Explorers before that. At Philmont, we encountered several mixed groups. Cub Scouts has long been a family program, with Girls tagging along and participating, they just did not get to earn any badges. My daughter would have loved the recognition. I suppose, conservatives think that they should still be shut out.

    Next year, Girl Troops (not mixed units) will be able to form, and at long last, Girls will be able to participate in Scouting fully. Just like every other form of Scouting in the world other than Saudi Arabia, that great bastion of oppressing women. The program will not change for the boys. We will still go camping, still teach what is important. Girls will now have an option other than the Girl Scouts of America, which is wholly captured by the Left. BSA is not so captured, and I do not see it being so captured. I see this expansion as a good thing. It is not a sign of weakness nor a surrender. It is a change. If being conservative means rejecting all change, then I am not one.

    Perhaps, conservatives think that gay boys (since it is clear you don’t want girls) should be denied what BSA has to offer. I am sure that before the change there were never any gay boys in BSA, right? Of course there were. And were their gay scoutmasters? I am sure they were. Also divorced ones, and ones who cheated on their wives, and had sex outside of marriage. And who cursed and smoked. Why is being gay such a worse sin than being divorced? Both are admonished in the Bible. Somehow, conservatives are fine with no fault divorce, but still against people being gay. One is a choice, and one is at least partially not.

    However, I am in danger of getting off track. BSA has a policy of no tobacco use, no alcohol or drug use around Scouts. Scouts of more than 2 years of age difference may not share a tent. Boys and Girls may not share a tent (outside of family camping with siblings). In all events, there must be 2 adults 21 or older, fully trained, and never, never, may any adult be with a youth who is not their child. They may not tent with them, even if one is 17 and one is 18. Every adult on an outing must complete a youth protection program. Scouting is not trying to cover things up, it took steps to make changes, steps I add, the Catholic Church appears unable to take to this day. Boy Scouts do not have groups of leaders having gay orgies as seen within the Catholic Church. So yes there are lawsuits, and yes BSA is defending itself.

    From an expert on this sort of thing:

    This is actually a lot more common than you might think. It is especially true with widespread consumer product issues. My experience came with mounting asbestos claims from a company that made building products. I was their outside PR guy. What happens is that the lawsuits pile up in state courts – 50 different states, 50 different sets of laws, 50 different legal cultures. Chapter 11 halts new litigation, removes existing litigation to a single federal court typically in Delaware but not always – where it will all be heard by a single judge. The resulting agreement will set aside money for the current plaintiffs and future plaintiffs as well, probably in a trust that is administered by plaintiffs attorneys.

    So BSA is facing financial issues because of lawsuits from over two decades ago. They are acting as a normal business would. This is not because the Mormans have changed their programs. In fact, they will not leave until 2020. Also, how on Earth do you blame the world of today with the world 30 years ago? Talk about stealing a base. What we know, is that in youth programs all over the world, predators prey. There did not used to be precautions. Today, as I outlined above, there are. There is more awareness.

    So, BSA is going “co-ed” by acknowledging the girls already present at the Cub level, as always been Co-Ed for 14+ in some units, and is creating Single Sex Troops in Scouting: BSA. I am happy to have this happen, and I believe had my daughter had a chance to cross over into Scouting, she would be on her way to Eagle too. I worry more about her moral strength than his, because he has had Scouting experience.

    But by all means, let’s look at every change as part of the decay of society. Let’s decry trying to expand who gets to get the benefits of Scouting. Let us write off the only major Youth Organization who teaches civic duty, personal moral duty, and duty to God.

    The Boy Scouts of America that I know still operates and lives by these words:

    Be Prepared!

    Do a Good Turn Daily

    A Scout is:

    • Trustworthy,
    • Loyal,
    • Helpful,
    • Friendly,
    • Courteous,
    • Kind,
    • Obedient,
    • Cheerful,
    • Thrifty,
    • Brave,
    • Clean,
    • and Reverent.

    And the words I try to live by daily (though, sinner than I am I fail often):

    On my honor, I will do my best
    To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
    To help other people at all times;
    To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

    God Bless the Boy Scouts of America

    Bryan, sin was not my theme. I focused on the likelihood of abuse. If we banned sinners, we would be apt to ban everyone. Some sinners are, I would suggest, a far greater danger to young men than others.

    Indeed.

    And, nary a comment on the changes BSA has put in place. Two Deep Leadership is an excellent way to keep everyone safe, youth and adults. Our Troop will not violate it. This is why we send four Trained leaders on every outing, so if something happens to one, we are well covered. The group can split in two, and still be well covered.

    Further, each Charter Organization and Troop is able to make its own choices. So, our Troop can say “No Gay leaders” if we so choose. Isn’t local control on these sorts of things exactly what conservatives call for in government. BSA has taken a “federal” approach. Thus, the local units can decide what they want to do. We don’t have to have a girl troop, anymore than we have to have a Venture program, or the Pack has to take girls into a Girl Den. Freedom of choice and all that.

    I dare say, Paul, that as a Therapist, one who worked in community mental health for 25 years, I know more about sexual predators than most of the people at Ricochet (Ryan M, and Gary R. being up here with me due to their legal work). If all the adults follow the rules, then the predator cannot act. And believe me, we are fast to follow the rules, and chase down people who don’t understand. They are a pain and keep us safe. No parent can come on an event without taking Youth Protection. They don’t get on the bus.

    Boy Scouts of America is a great organization than now can reach more youth. That should be celebrated. It has polices and procedures in place to protect youth and adults. That should be celebrated. It is going to use the law to protect the organization from many lawsuits dealing with the actions of men long gone from BSA. That should be, if not celebrated, understood.

    I admit, BSA’s PR department clearly sucks. They spend their energy on making Scouting great.

    Nary a comment? I take it that you did not even bother to read my piece. I said not a word about sin, and I did refer to the changes made in 1991. Nonetheless, what was done in 2015 points in a different direction. Why did you not respond to my argument? Do I not have a point? BSA’s problem is not its PR department. It is its policy — which is why it is declining rapidly.

    Local autonomy may mean that there is a remnant. National policy guarantees that there will not be more than a remnant.

    I think the way we see things is so vastly different, that we struggle to communicate.

    I do not think that declining membership is all on changes made in 2015. We compete with sports and many other alternatives for young people’s attention. You said nothing in response to my comments on Two deep leadership, and you dismiss the importance of local autonomy as nearly worthless.

    And, you

    Paul A. Rahe (View Comment):
    Who in his right mind would entrust his sons to an organization that has surrendered to the regnant cultural fashions?

    And here, Sir, you insult me, for having my Son in Scouts. You don’t get to stand behind your article with this statement outstanding. There is no way to read this, no way at all, other than an insult to me, my wife, and all the parents who put their youth into BSA programs.

    I am working hard to make Troop 277, and Pack 277 great. And if we add a Girl Troop, I will work hard to make that great. I have not given in to SJW’s, or surrendered to anything.

    As I made clear, I honor your efforts. But you are part of a larger organization that has surrendered to a very ugly culture, and that will harm you and destroy scouting more generally. Maybe someone could safely entrust his sons to Troop 277. But one cannot do so to the Boy Scouts of America. There is a tension between your efforts locally and your allegiance to the latter. Others recognize it and have left the BSA. Sooner or later, you will find that you have to do so as well. You might want to read Phil Barton’s comment above. He was as involved in scouting as you are, and he sees the point of my argument. In time, you will, too.

    • #34
  5. Jim Chase Member
    Jim Chase
    @JimChase

    Paul A. Rahe (View Comment):
    It is all a shame. I honor those who soldier on, but I suspect that they do not understand the degree to which the decisions made at the national level will undercut their work.

    Those at the local level understand much more than you might realize, because they are on the front lines, and are acutely aware of the challenges they face.  But the national organization needs the local organization far more than the converse.

    By structure, Scouting is primarily regional and local.  A couple of salient points, just for information’s sake:

    • Each unit (Troop, Pack, Crew) is owned by its charter partner which is typically a place of worship, service club or educational institution.  Each Council is locally incorporated in the specific state where it operates.  Camps, service centers, bank funds, and investments are owned and controlled by the Councils (which are typically 501(c)(3)s incorporated in their specific state).
    • The nature of the relationship for a council with the national BSA organization is that the council is the holder of a charter to conduct the Boy Scouts of America programs within a defined territory.
    • Councils receive no funding from the national organization; in fact, councils pay fees to National BSA as a part of our charter agreement and for specific services.  Councils receive value back from the national organization, but operate as a significantly financially independent not-for-profit organization.
    • Partnership with National BSA is for business purposes, and includes several insurance programs, services for IT and expertise related to camping, Youth Protection and so on.  Also important to note is employee benefits, such as healthcare and retirement, are funded by each council but through programs controlled and operated by National BSA.

    Yes, decisions and negative media reporting at the national level have undoubtedly contributed to a weakening at the local level (charters pulling out, etc).  No argument there, and you may feel free to call it a remnant if you wish.  But a strong council, with good leadership, and committed charters, have the ability to continue to recruit and retain, and promote Scouting.  With or without the national organization.  Any many will succeed.  Some will not.  Happens in business all the time.

    I’m a realist, but this is personal to me.  The pronouncement of demise is as yet, premature.  Punditry that assumes the worst certainly doesn’t make the job any easier, but I suspect not everyone truly understands that.  Nevertheless, I’ll roll-up my sleeves, stay engaged, write the checks, and otherwise do what little I can to be a positive influence.  And just maybe, a year and a half from now, I’ll stand proudly with my two Eagle Scout sons.  They will be better men for it, and as their dad, so will I.

     

    • #35
  6. Full Size Tabby Member
    Full Size Tabby
    @FullSizeTabby

    You mention the reticence of the WSJ reporter to specify the nature of the sexual abuse claims. I find this reticence all too common in the news media, which keeps us from developing a clear picture of what is going on, which keeps us from determining what policies might reduce the amount of sexual abuse that goes on. My unscientific observation is that when a man abuses women or girls (or less frequently when a woman abuses boys), the sex of the victims is noted. But, when a man abuses boys, the sex of the victims is rarely mentioned in the popular news media coverage. I also believe that is out of a desire not to bring up uncomfortable facts that don’t fit the politically correct narrative. 

     

    • #36
  7. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Would it be outrageous to posit male homosexuals are predisposed to pedophilia?  Would it be equally outrageous to say this was the reason for the BSA ban in the first place?

    I think not . . .

    • #37
  8. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    Paul A. Rahe: But I had somehow missed the fact that there was a sex abuse scandal

    Same here.

    Paul A. Rahe: When I turned to Wikipedia, which has a good entry summarizing what Boyle and his colleagues at The Washington Times turned up, I discovered that what I suspected was true — that the misconduct involved was very much like that which plagued the Roman Catholic Church worldwide in the five decades preceding 2001.

    There’s been wall-to-wall coverage of the scandals in the Catholic Church for 2 decades now, it’s impossible to miss, Hollywood even made that movie Spotlight lionizing the reports at the Boston Globe as the greatest whistleblowers since Watergate.  While I agree those scandals were newsworthy, it still seems pretty obvious the media has a particular axe to grind with the Church and does not apply the same standards of scrutiny to reports of widespread abuse in scouting, public schools, or other institutions entrusted with the care of children.

    • #38
  9. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Stad (View Comment):

    Would it be outrageous to posit male homosexuals are predisposed to pedophilia?

    Dear lord, yes! 

    • #39
  10. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    Stad (View Comment):
    Would it be outrageous to posit male homosexuals are predisposed to pedophilia?

    Depends on the definition of “pedophilia.”

    I think most heterosexual men find some post-pubescent teenage girls attractive, and most homosexual men are attracted to some post-pubescent teenage boys.  I believe that true pedophilia, i.e. attraction to pre-pubescent children, is rare.  Or at least I hope it is…

    • #40
  11. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Seawriter (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    I also think that most Gay men are more than capable of supervising boys without preying on them.

    That’s nice. So what’s an acceptable level of gay men preying on boys? 10%? 1%?

    If even 1% of gay adult scout leaders prey on the boys that is an awful lot of sexually-abused children. In 2010 there were 515,344 adult leaders in scouting. If the gays were distributed among scout leaders as they are in the general population that means there are nearly 26,000 gay scout leaders. Which means 260 troops with boys at risk of molestation if only 5% of the scout leaders are gay and only 1% of gay scout leaders are interested in preying on boys.

    Is exposing boys in 260 troops acceptable? Every year? Again, that is best case, because pedophiles tend to gravitate to where children are.

    I can tell you the percentage of straight men that are going to sexually prey on boys: 0%.

    I don’t think Gay men are any worse predators than straight men. Further, if you ban gay leaders, you still get gay leaders. Or Bi ones. There are married gay men. How do you know if the man is gay or not? 

    I am sorry, but this thread seems moving close to actual homophobia. 

    http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

     

    As an expert panel of researchers convened by the National Academy of Sciences noted in a 1993 report: “The distinction between homosexual and heterosexual child molesters relies on the premise that male molesters of male victims are homosexual in orientation. Most molesters of boys do not report sexual interest in adult men, however” (National Research Council, 1993, p. 143, citation omitted).

    and

    The distinction between a victim’s gender and a perpetrator’s sexual orientation is important because many child molesters don’t really have an adult sexual orientation. They have never developed the capacity for mature sexual relationships with other adults, either men or women. Instead, their sexual attractions focus on children – boys, girls, or children of both sexes.

    the problem is child molesters, not gay men. 

    • #41
  12. lowtech redneck Coolidge
    lowtech redneck
    @lowtech redneck

    A lot of good points from all sides on a what is, for me, a morally complex subject.  Well done, Ricochet.

    • #42
  13. Idahoklahoman Member
    Idahoklahoman
    @Idahoklahoman

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Seawriter (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    I also think that most Gay men are more than capable of supervising boys without preying on them.

    That’s nice. So what’s an acceptable level of gay men preying on boys? 10%? 1%?

    If even 1% of gay adult scout leaders prey on the boys that is an awful lot of sexually-abused children. In 2010 there were 515,344 adult leaders in scouting. If the gays were distributed among scout leaders as they are in the general population that means there are nearly 26,000 gay scout leaders. Which means 260 troops with boys at risk of molestation if only 5% of the scout leaders are gay and only 1% of gay scout leaders are interested in preying on boys.

    Is exposing boys in 260 troops acceptable? Every year? Again, that is best case, because pedophiles tend to gravitate to where children are.

    I can tell you the percentage of straight men that are going to sexually prey on boys: 0%.

    I don’t think Gay men are any worse predators than straight men. Further, if you ban gay leaders, you still get gay leaders. Or Bi ones. There are married gay men. How do you know if the man is gay or not?

    I am sorry, but this thread seems moving close to actual homophobia.

    the problem is child molesters, not gay men.

    Possibly. It depends on the particular form of abuse. The Boy Scout cases I am familiar with involved child molesters abusing prepubescent boys. Most of the Catholic Church cases did not — they  involved gay priests abusing their authority over post-pubescent young men, in the same ways that they themselves had been abused and exploited in the seminaries. A gay man may not be sexually attracted to prepubescent Cub Scouts, but odds are that he would be sexually attracted to 16-18 year old  Boy Scouts. Most gay men would resist the temptation, of course, just like most straight men avoid committing statutory rape on a daily basis. But to say that gay men are not child abusers is a truism that in no way addresses the concerns that one might reasonably have about putting them in close contact with one’s 17-year-old son.

    • #43
  14. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    After having worked a vice car, based upon my experiences sexual predators are not confined to any one group, whether it be race, creed, or gender. They have different appetites when it comes to prey, they prey on men, women, or children. They have one thing in common they hunt.

    Part of the financial problem Scouting is facing is that large corporations that match their employee’s charitable contributions is that they may opt out of matching contributions to the Boy Scouts. Intel has already done this.

    Whether it is the public school system, churches of any denomination, or any other profession a large segment of society is unwilling to make moral decisions. It is forbidden to forbid, or the sinner as well as the sin must be embraced.

     

    • #44
  15. RufusRJones Member
    RufusRJones
    @RufusRJones

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    After having worked a vice car, based upon my experiences sexual predators are not confined to any one group, whether it be race, creed, or gender. They have different appetites when it comes to prey, they prey on men, women, or children. They have one thing in common they hunt.

    Part of the financial problem Scouting is facing is that large corporations that match their employee’s charitable contributions is that they may opt out of matching contributions to the Boy Scouts. Intel has already done this.

    Whether it is the public school system, churches of any denomination, or any other profession a large segment of society is unwilling to make moral decisions. It is forbidden to forbid, or the sinner as well as the sin must be embraced.

     

    This makes a lot of sense to me. 

    • #45
  16. rgbact Inactive
    rgbact
    @romanblichar

    Stad (View Comment):

    Would it be outrageous to posit male homosexuals are predisposed to pedophilia? Would it be equally outrageous to say this was the reason for the BSA ban in the first place?

    No. Was waiting for someone to finally suggest it. Young boys are a target rich environment, so to speak. Gay men are well aware of this. Its just fundamental to the lifestyle. Or people can just ignore all this and just blame the Pope or some BSA big wig when the eventual rampant pedophilia gets uncovered. As OP implies, its not “diverse” to let foxes guard your hen house.

    • #46
  17. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    RufusRJones (View Comment):

    Mike "Lash" LaRoche (View Comment):

    Get woke, go broke.

    Diversity and tolerance are good ideas that have gotten taken way, way too far. It’s regressive.

    I agree. Diversity and tolerance while in pursuit of goals is a good thing. Diversity and tolerance as goals are reductive and frequently interfere with actual goals. 

    Math and science are not improved by changing altering the color pallet, they are improved by finding the best workers in math and science. 

    • #47
  18. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    DrewInWisconsin (View Comment):

    When I read the news of the bankruptcy, I , too, wondered at the excuse of “dwindling membership and escalating legal costs related to lawsuits over how it handled allegations of sex abuse,” and suspect it was more like what Prof. Rahe says: dwindling membership due to caving in to social justice warriors.

    And if there are escalating legal costs, it’s probably due to frivolous lawsuits from people who insist that the Boy Scouts must accept their transgender girl or something like that.a

    I think we know exactly what killed the BSA. But I don’t expect our press — even allegedly conservative outlets — to report it this way.

    Other Factors Likely to Contribute to the En-Dwindling of Membership: 
    – fewer Christians
    – more anti-Christians
    – people less likely to belong to orgs generally 
    – kids don’t really know their area peers as well
    – less visibility – I don’t see the uniforms much anymore 
    – lack of government support (apparently meeting spaces are less available)
    – fewer children per family
    – working couples have less time to ferry kids around
    – less press support 
    – fewer sponsors as PR for sponsoring ain’t what it used to be 

    • #48
  19. The Cloaked Gaijin Member
    The Cloaked Gaijin
    @TheCloakedGaijin

    Paul A. Rahe (View Comment):

    Gates, Tillerson, and their colleagues have a lot to answer for…

    Republicans killed the Boy Scouts?

    I think that most Democrats do not even pay attention to the Boy Scouts except to attack them for an occasional political point, but I guess even that is over now that the Boy Scouts seem to have been absorbed into the collective.

    • #49
  20. Paul A. Rahe Member
    Paul A. Rahe
    @PaulARahe

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Seawriter (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    I also think that most Gay men are more than capable of supervising boys without preying on them.

    That’s nice. So what’s an acceptable level of gay men preying on boys? 10%? 1%?

    If even 1% of gay adult scout leaders prey on the boys that is an awful lot of sexually-abused children. In 2010 there were 515,344 adult leaders in scouting. If the gays were distributed among scout leaders as they are in the general population that means there are nearly 26,000 gay scout leaders. Which means 260 troops with boys at risk of molestation if only 5% of the scout leaders are gay and only 1% of gay scout leaders are interested in preying on boys.

    Is exposing boys in 260 troops acceptable? Every year? Again, that is best case, because pedophiles tend to gravitate to where children are.

    I can tell you the percentage of straight men that are going to sexually prey on boys: 0%.

    I don’t think Gay men are any worse predators than straight men. Further, if you ban gay leaders, you still get gay leaders. Or Bi ones. There are married gay men. How do you know if the man is gay or not?

    I am sorry, but this thread seems moving close to actual homophobia.

    http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

     

    As an expert panel of researchers convened by the National Academy of Sciences noted in a 1993 report: “The distinction between homosexual and heterosexual child molesters relies on the premise that male molesters of male victims are homosexual in orientation. Most molesters of boys do not report sexual interest in adult men, however” (National Research Council, 1993, p. 143, citation omitted).

    and

    The distinction between a victim’s gender and a perpetrator’s sexual orientation is important because many child molesters don’t really have an adult sexual orientation. They have never developed the capacity for mature sexual relationships with other adults, either men or women. Instead, their sexual attractions focus on children – boys, girls, or children of both sexes.

    the problem is child molesters, not gay men.

    As my original post intimated, I do not think gay men more likely to be predators than straight men either. I would hesitate before entrusting a pretty young girl to the care of a straight man for the same reason that I would hesitate to entrust an attractive fourteen-year-old boy to a gay man. This is not homophobia. It is common sense. Human beings are apt to fall prey to temptation. As for the  findings of the National Council of Sciences “expert panel,” all that I can say is that I trust them about as much as I trust the panels of climate scientists. The psychologists told the Catholic bishops that the pederast priests could be cured. How did that work out? It is, in any case, important to draw a clear line between pedophilia and pederasty.

    • #50
  21. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    rgbact (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    Would it be outrageous to posit male homosexuals are predisposed to pedophilia? Would it be equally outrageous to say this was the reason for the BSA ban in the first place?

    No. Was waiting for someone to finally suggest it. Young boys are a target rich environment, so to speak. Gay men are well aware of this. Its just fundamental to the lifestyle. Or people can just ignore all this and just blame the Pope or some BSA big wig when the eventual rampant pedophilia gets uncovered. As OP implies, its not “diverse” to let foxes guard your hen house.

    You can choose to not read the article I posted, which is research based. Gay men are not more likely to molest boys than straight men. 

     

    • #51
  22. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Paul A. Rahe (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Seawriter (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    I also think that most Gay men are more than capable of supervising boys without preying on them.

    That’s nice. So what’s an acceptable level of gay men preying on boys? 10%? 1%?

    If even 1% of gay adult scout leaders prey on the boys that is an awful lot of sexually-abused children. In 2010 there were 515,344 adult leaders in scouting. If the gays were distributed among scout leaders as they are in the general population that means there are nearly 26,000 gay scout leaders. Which means 260 troops with boys at risk of molestation if only 5% of the scout leaders are gay and only 1% of gay scout leaders are interested in preying on boys.

    Is exposing boys in 260 troops acceptable? Every year? Again, that is best case, because pedophiles tend to gravitate to where children are.

    I can tell you the percentage of straight men that are going to sexually prey on boys: 0%.

    I don’t think Gay men are any worse predators than straight men. Further, if you ban gay leaders, you still get gay leaders. Or Bi ones. There are married gay men. How do you know if the man is gay or not?

    I am sorry, but this thread seems moving close to actual homophobia.

    http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

     

    As an expert panel of researchers convened by the National Academy of Sciences noted in a 1993 report: “The distinction between homosexual and heterosexual child molesters relies on the premise that male molesters of male victims are homosexual in orientation. Most molesters of boys do not report sexual interest in adult men, however” (National Research Council, 1993, p. 143, citation omitted).

    and

    The distinction between a victim’s gender and a perpetrator’s sexual orientation is important because many child molesters don’t really have an adult sexual orientation. They have never developed the capacity for mature sexual relationships with other adults, either men or women. Instead, their sexual attractions focus on children – boys, girls, or children of both sexes.

    the problem is child molesters, not gay men.

    As my original post intimated, I do not think gay men more likely to be predators than straight men either. I would hesitate before entrusting a pretty young girl to the care of a straight man for the same reason that I would hesitate to entrust an attractive fourteen-year-old boy to a gay man. This is not homophobia. It is common sense. Human beings are apt to fall prey to temptation. As for the findings of the National Council of Sciences “expert panel,” all that I can say is that I trust them about as much as I trust the panels of climate scientists. The psychologists told the Catholic bishops that the pederast priests could be cured. How did that work out? It is, in any case, important to draw a clear line between pedophilia and pederasty.

    Since we put young, fit, cute girls into the hands of male coaches, you seem to be calling for an end to that practice, if you follow your concerns to their logical conclusions. Indeed, perhaps, it would be best if schools were totally gender segregated, with only males teaching males and females teaching females. 

    Or, we can follow the two deep leadership policies. If followed, there cannot be abuse. As we teach the parents, it also means it eliminated accusations (mostly against men) which are a big concern for men serving youth. 

    • #52
  23. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Paul A. Rahe (View Comment):
    Local autonomy may mean that there is a remnant. National policy guarantees that there will not be more than a remnant.

    Eventually the National Org structure will force all local troops to accept their liberal policies, thus ending local autonomy, much the same way Washington dominates public education across the country . . .

    • #53
  24. Jim Chase Member
    Jim Chase
    @JimChase

    Stad (View Comment):
    Eventually the National Org structure will force all local troops to accept their liberal policies, thus ending local autonomy, much the same way Washington dominates public education across the country . . .

    As I mentioned earlier, that’s not the way it works.  The policy changes end bans and prohibitions, so to speak; they do not enforce quotas (thou shalt have this, thou shalt include that).  Charters still have the lead voice at the local levels, and the councils are regional associations of the charters.  But believe what you want.

    To your larger point, I suppose, if BSA National ever tried to “force” charters to step outside their unique frameworks to adopt policies that compromise their values, then yes, the charters would withdraw and local/regional councils will dry up, and the organization could fold.  No council or charter is going to willingly give up its autonomy.  And BSA has no funding source without the local organizations.  So if they even tried to end local autonomy, they would be ending themselves.

    • #54
  25. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    Jim Chase (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):
    Eventually the National Org structure will force all local troops to accept their liberal policies, thus ending local autonomy, much the same way Washington dominates public education across the country . . .

    As I mentioned earlier, that’s not the way it works. The policy changes end bans and prohibitions, so to speak; they do not enforce quotas (thou shalt have this, thou shalt include that). Charters still have the lead voice at the local levels, and the councils are regional associations of the charters. But believe what you want.

    To your larger point, I suppose, if BSA National ever tried to “force” charters to step outside their unique frameworks to adopt policies that compromise their values, then yes, the charters would withdraw and local/regional councils will dry up, and the organization could fold. No council or charter is going to willingly give up its autonomy. And BSA has no funding source without the local organizations. So if they even tried to end local autonomy, they would be ending themselves.

    I might add, that would totally overturn a century of how Scouts has operated in this nation.

    • #55
  26. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Jim Chase (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):
    Eventually the National Org structure will force all local troops to accept their liberal policies, thus ending local autonomy, much the same way Washington dominates public education across the country . . .

    As I mentioned earlier, that’s not the way it works. The policy changes end bans and prohibitions, so to speak; they do not enforce quotas (thou shalt have this, thou shalt include that). Charters still have the lead voice at the local levels, and the councils are regional associations of the charters. But believe what you want.

    To your larger point, I suppose, if BSA National ever tried to “force” charters to step outside their unique frameworks to adopt policies that compromise their values, then yes, the charters would withdraw and local/regional councils will dry up, and the organization could fold. No council or charter is going to willingly give up its autonomy. And BSA has no funding source without the local organizations. So if they even tried to end local autonomy, they would be ending themselves.

    I might add, that would totally overturn a century of how Scouts has operated in this nation.

    If it happens, you can add it to a long list of things that have been overturned after a century’s usage. 

    • #56
  27. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):

    Jim Chase (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):
    Eventually the National Org structure will force all local troops to accept their liberal policies, thus ending local autonomy, much the same way Washington dominates public education across the country . . .

    As I mentioned earlier, that’s not the way it works. The policy changes end bans and prohibitions, so to speak; they do not enforce quotas (thou shalt have this, thou shalt include that). Charters still have the lead voice at the local levels, and the councils are regional associations of the charters. But believe what you want.

    To your larger point, I suppose, if BSA National ever tried to “force” charters to step outside their unique frameworks to adopt policies that compromise their values, then yes, the charters would withdraw and local/regional councils will dry up, and the organization could fold. No council or charter is going to willingly give up its autonomy. And BSA has no funding source without the local organizations. So if they even tried to end local autonomy, they would be ending themselves.

    I might add, that would totally overturn a century of how Scouts has operated in this nation.

    If it happens, you can add it to a long list of things that have been overturned after a century’s usage.

    The National Organization has made no moves in that direction. So, if you want to make the prediction, please, by all means, show me your evidence that BSA is going to dictate to local units they have to admit Gay leaders. 

    The BSA cannot win. It has  a policy no one seems to like. I’d say, if the Right and the Left both don’t like your political choice, then you made the right damn choice. 

    But hey, all you people outside of scouting seem to have a much better idea of what is going on, than those of us in it. I guess we are all just stupid.

     

    • #57
  28. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Jim Chase (View Comment):
    To your larger point, I suppose, if BSA National ever tried to “force” charters to step outside their unique frameworks to adopt policies that compromise their values, then yes, the charters would withdraw and local/regional councils will dry up, and the organization could fold. No council or charter is going to willingly give up its autonomy. And BSA has no funding source without the local organizations. So if they even tried to end local autonomy, they would be ending themselves.

    This is exactly what I mean.  Central rule cannot tolerate local autonomy.  If the left cannot control a thing, it will destroy it.  Then they will go after The Next Good Thing.

    Again, look at what challenges public (government) education.  The left hates charter schools, private schools (especially religious), and homeschools because they cannot control them (even though ironically they do control some).

    • #58
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