How to Mess Up Your Child

 

Just tell them that they are not enough for you. Better yet: put it in their name, so they can never forget just how inadequate they really are. After all, if you are not good enough for your mother, then how can you be good enough for anyone else?

And she [Rachel] called his name Joseph, saying: ‘May the LORD add to me another son.’ (Gen. 30:24)

Is it any wonder that Joseph grows up as an insecure child?

(Credit for this insight belongs to #3 son.)

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  1. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    I always thought of it more as a “This is great. Let’s have more!”

    But if there is any objection to your view, I don’t think I have it.

    • #1
  2. Amy Schley Coolidge
    Amy Schley
    @AmySchley

    Really, after watching her sister pop out six sons and a daughter, you think she’d be happy for the one.

    • #2
  3. Mark Camp Member
    Mark Camp
    @MarkCamp

    If you can find a third and a fourth (a Jewish optimist and a Christian pessimist) you can play bridge.  I’ll watch.  I don’t remember studying this topic, and it is interesting.

    iWe, as you know, we have a Joseph on our side too, and one thing I’ve learned is…names matter.  Maybe St. A. and you can digress to that at some point.

    • #3
  4. Nanda Panjandrum Member
    Nanda Panjandrum
    @

    Ah, the first “Joe Schmo”; amazing how he becomes a hero, despite (maybe because?) of this, isn’t it?  There’s hope for all of us, thanks be. Shalom to share, dear friend!

    • #4
  5. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    I always thought of it more as a “This is great. Let’s have more!”

    But if there is any objection to your view, I don’t think I have it.

    In fact, the use of heteros rather than allos in the LXX is in your favor. At least–it suggests that the language used by the Greek-speaking diaspora for some centuries was language fitting your interpretation very nicely.

    • #5
  6. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member
    CB Toder aka Mama Toad
    @CBToderakaMamaToad

    Plus he’s got the uneven treatment, the obvious favoritism of his father to deal with. And his big mouth, which of course comes from his deep insecurity and need to be validated. The fancy coat isn’t enough, the brothers who don’t actually feel how special he is have to acknowledge that he is special or he won’t shut up.

    Even being a slave didn’t teach him to shut up, it wasn’t until he was tossed into prison that he learned to control what he said. 

    • #6
  7. Freeven Member
    Freeven
    @Freeven

    I suppose that anyone who has a second child is, in some way, telling the first child that he/she wasn’t enough.

    • #7
  8. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Freeven (View Comment):

    I suppose that anyone who has a second child is, in some way, telling the first child that he/she wasn’t enough.

    I’m the oldest of five. I remember trying to tell my mother once that there were limits on what we could do for summer travel vacation because there were too many of us. She got defensive about it, and I never tried that line of discussion again because I could see there was no right way for a son to talk with his mother about it. But I didn’t think I was  complaining. I liked having all those brothers and sisters, and sometimes wished I wouldn’t have to leave home when I was older, which would break up our family.  I just thought she should be more realistic about what we could do.  Mom was often unrealistic in her expectations, and it was amazing how often it worked well for her.

    I think having a second child is telling the first that she loves him enough to give him some younger companions to lead. (Note that I didn’t say to boss around. I would never have done that, would I?)  The problem is, what do you tell the last child? 

    • #8
  9. James Gawron Inactive
    James Gawron
    @JamesGawron

    iWe,

    OK, now let’s try again. It is obvious that Rachel didn’t “mess up her child” as Joseph has anything but a lack of self-esteem. In fact, his problem is that he has maybe a little too much self-esteem. It bubbles over and he tells his jealous brothers of his ‘dreams’. The brothers are the messed up children. They are Leah’s children and Jacob does not love Leah for good reason. Leah has stolen her own sister’s husband and harassed her younger sister. Leah’s sons now aware of the fact that Dad doesn’t love Mom, probably because of Leah’s incessant complaining about it, now massively resent Joseph. With the slightest provocation, ‘the dreams’ & ‘the coat’ the brothers are prepared to commit fratricide.

    The brothers are the screwed up children.

    Regards,

    Jim

    • #9
  10. Amy Schley Coolidge
    Amy Schley
    @AmySchley

    James Gawron (View Comment):
    Leah has stolen her own sister’s husband and harassed her younger sister.

    What makes you think Leah had any say in the matter? Laban played the trick to marry the probably unmarriagable daughter due to blindness (“Leah had weak eyes”) who then had to spend get entire life knowing her husband didn’t love her, didn’t want her, and no matter what she did, he never would. 

    And as for Joseph, look at one of his dreams. The ten stars bow to him — his brothers. The sun bows to him — his father. The moon bows to him — his mother. The mother of his six brothers and sister — nowhere to be found, as disregarded and irrelevant as the two servants that are the mothers of two of the other brothers. 

    • #10
  11. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member
    CB Toder aka Mama Toad
    @CBToderakaMamaToad

    Freeven (View Comment):

    I suppose that anyone who has a second child is, in some way, telling the first child that he/she wasn’t enough.

    No, they are telling the first child, and the second, that the natural result of married people is children.

    I tell my children all the time that I picked their father, and they just kind of came along. That’s why he gets the last piece of pie, the biggest steak, the best seat, etc.

    • #11
  12. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member
    CB Toder aka Mama Toad
    @CBToderakaMamaToad

    James Gawron (View Comment):

    The brothers are the screwed up children.

     

    The whole family is messed up. Jacob and Esau? Messed up. Rebecca deceiving Isaac? Seriously messed up. Laban, like his sister, deceiving Jacob? Why was Jacob surprised?

    Poor Leah. The only decent one in my book is Reuben, her son, whom she hoped would finally make Jacob love her.

    • #12
  13. Nanda Panjandrum Member
    Nanda Panjandrum
    @

    CB Toder aka Mama Toad (View Comment):
    and they just kind of came along.

    Not quite, MT; they are the tangible reminders of your love for one another. :-)

    • #13
  14. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    CB Toder aka Mama Toad (View Comment):

    James Gawron (View Comment):

    The brothers are the screwed up children.

     

    The whole family is messed up. Jacob and Esau? Messed up. Rebecca deceiving Isaac? Seriously messed up. Laban, like his sister, deceiving Jacob? Why was Jacob surprised?

    Poor Leah. The only decent one in my book is Reuben, her son, whom she hoped would finally make Jacob love her.

    Not sure I’d pick Reuben, either. He talked his brothers into not killing Joseph, but he still let them throw him into a pit with no water, and conveniently walked away before they sold Joseph. And then he betrayed his father. Jacob said to him, “Unstable as water, you shall excel no longer. For when you mounted your father’s bed, you brought disgrace–my couch  be mounted.” They were some group!

    • #14
  15. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member
    CB Toder aka Mama Toad
    @CBToderakaMamaToad

    Nanda Panjandrum (View Comment):

    Not quite, MT; they are the tangible reminders of your love for one another. :-)

    I agree and I know that, but that’s not quite the way I phrase it.

    Child: Why does Dad get the last slice of blueberry pie?

    Me: Because I love him more than you. I picked him, but you children just sort of came along. Now clear the table and serve your father the pie. The Lord placed the fourth commandment where He did because your parents are more important than any other people, and don’t forget it.

    • #15
  16. James Gawron Inactive
    James Gawron
    @JamesGawron

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    CB Toder aka Mama Toad (View Comment):

    James Gawron (View Comment):

    The brothers are the screwed up children.

     

    The whole family is messed up. Jacob and Esau? Messed up. Rebecca deceiving Isaac? Seriously messed up. Laban, like his sister, deceiving Jacob? Why was Jacob surprised?

    Poor Leah. The only decent one in my book is Reuben, her son, whom she hoped would finally make Jacob love her.

    Not sure I’d pick Reuben, either. He talked his brothers into not killing Joseph, but he still let them throw him into a pit with no water, and conveniently walked away before they sold Joseph. And then he betrayed his father. Jacob said to him, “Unstable as water, you shall excel no longer. For when you mounted your father’s bed, you brought disgrace–my couch be mounted.” They were some group!

    Susan,

    Jacob is renamed Israel. Even though he didn’t really want 4 wives (just Rachel) and didn’t expect to have 12 sons (mostly Leah’s doing), he is the first real parental success. Abraham had Isaac and Ishmael. Isaac had Jacob and Esau. One very good child and one very bad child. To quote President Trump, “Not Good.” Although the 12 sons are very flawed, they manage to right themselves by the end of Genesis and give their father a decent retirement in Goshen.

    Jacob gives them an honest assessment on his deathbed. They have managed to survive and remain a family unit (perhaps a miracle by divine intervention). Problems will soon arise again for the Nation of Israel but for the moment a little peace.

    Regards,

    Jim

    • #16
  17. Nanda Panjandrum Member
    Nanda Panjandrum
    @

    CB Toder aka Mama Toad (View Comment):

    Nanda Panjandrum (View Comment):

    Not quite, MT; they are the tangible reminders of your love for one another. :-)

    I agree and I know that, but that’s not quite the way I phrase it.

    Child: Why does Dad get the last slice of blueberry pie?

    Me: Because I love him more than you. I picked him, but you children just sort of came along. Now clear the table and serve your father the pie. The Lord placed the fourth commandment where He did because your parents are more important than any other people, and don’t forget it.

    Understood, the above was the way it was phrased in my family home, no disagreement implied.

    • #17
  18. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member
    CB Toder aka Mama Toad
    @CBToderakaMamaToad

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):
    Not sure I’d pick Reuben, either. He talked his brothers into not killing Joseph, but he still let them throw him into a pit with no water, and conveniently walked away before they sold Joseph. And then he betrayed his father. Jacob said to him, “Unstable as water, you shall excel no longer. For when you mounted your father’s bed, you brought disgrace–my couch be mounted.” They were some group!

    I still pick Reuben. 

    Here’s some good commentary from Wikipedia:

    In the Torah, Reuben is briefly described as having had sexual activity with Bilhah, his stepmother’s maid and father’s concubine. On his deathbed, Jacob declares that Reuben “will no longer excel, for you went up onto your father’s bed, onto my couch and defiled it.” Reuben’s behaviour angered Jacob to the extent that he gave Reuben’s birthright (as firstborn) to Joseph: classical rabbinical sources argue that the birthright had included the right of his descendants (the tribe of Reuben) to become ruler over the tribes (transferred to Judah) and priests (transferred to Levi). However, some of these sources argue that Reuben had not actually had sexual activity with Bilhah, but instead had simply supported the cause of his mother Leah, by harming that of Bilhah, angering Jacob; in these sources, it is argued that after the death of Rachel (Jacob’s favourite wife), Jacob sought to give the precedence to Bilhah, as he had formerly preferred her mistress, and Reuben removed Bilhah’s bed from the place where Jacob wished to have it. The classical rabbinical texts argue that Reuben immediately showed contrition for his actions in regard to Bilhah, and thus was the first penitent; initially, according to these sources, Reuben practiced penitence by secretly meditating, and also by abstaining from meat and wine, but when Judah confessed to the matter of Tamar, Reuben admitted what he had done, lest his other brothers might be suspected of his deed and punished for it. The classical sources go on to state that in honour of this voluntary penance and confession, God gave the tribe of Reuben Hoseaas a member, and Reuben was given a reward in the future world.

    • #18
  19. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member
    CB Toder aka Mama Toad
    @CBToderakaMamaToad

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):
    Jacob said to him, “Unstable as water, you shall excel no longer. For when you mounted your father’s bed, you brought disgrace–my couch be mounted.” They were some group!

    Especially when you consider how Jacob tricked his own father and his twin brother with his mother’s connivance. Bold as brass, he was, that Jacob.

    • #19
  20. Stina Member
    Stina
    @CM

    The Reticulator (View Comment):
    I think having a second child is telling the first that she loves him enough to give him some younger companions to lead. (Note that I didn’t say to boss around. I would never have done that, would I?) The problem is, what do you tell the last child? 

    We had a 2nd because the first was so easy, we wanted a repeat!

    We had a third because I learned so much the 2nd go, why not put it to use on a third?

    (I tell my second she makes me a better mom. This is code for “you challenge me, stretch me, and cause me to sink or swim” tl;dr: “you’re HARD”)

    • #20
  21. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Stina (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):
    I think having a second child is telling the first that she loves him enough to give him some younger companions to lead. (Note that I didn’t say to boss around. I would never have done that, would I?) The problem is, what do you tell the last child?

    We had a 2nd because the first was so easy, we wanted a repeat!

    We had a third because I learned so much the 2nd go, why not put it to use on a third?

    (I tell my second she makes me a better mom. This is code for “you challenge me, stretch me, and cause me to sink or swim” tl;dr: “you’re HARD”)

    The first child is like a gateway drug. Leads the way to the hard stuff.

    • #21
  22. Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu Inactive
    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu
    @YehoshuaBenEliyahu

    Rashi, the classic Torah commentator, says that Rachel saw through prophecy that Jacob was to have 12 sons and she was simply praying that the 12th son would also come from her.  I don’t think this prayer would have bruised the ego of her new born son.  It should also be noted that the relationship between Joseph and Benjamin, the 12th son who was born in answer to Rachel’s prayer, was very close.

    • #22
  23. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member
    CB Toder aka Mama Toad
    @CBToderakaMamaToad

    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu (View Comment):
    the relationship between Joseph and Benjamin, the 12th son who was born in answer to Rachel’s prayer, was very close.

    I know Joseph felt very emotional when he met Benjamin, but how could they have had a close relationship when they didn’t meet until Benjamin was a young man?

    • #23
  24. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    CB Toder aka Mama Toad (View Comment):
    I know Joseph felt very emotional when he met Benjamin, but how could they have had a close relationship when they didn’t meet until Benjamin was a young man?

    I would guess the dynamics of these occurrences are complex and difficult to understand. I wonder how close Benjamin was in age to Joseph’s sons? Also, Joseph’s reconnection to his father may have moved him to look out for his “baby brother.”

    • #24
  25. James Gawron Inactive
    James Gawron
    @JamesGawron

    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu (View Comment):

    Rashi, the classical Torah commentator, says that Rachel saw through prophecy that Jacob was to have 12 sons and she was simply praying that the 12th son would also come from her. I don’t think this prayer would have bruised the ego of her new born son. It should also be noted that the relationship between Joseph and Benjamin, the 12th son who was born in answer to Rachel’s prayer, was very close.

    Yehoshua,

    Benjamin becomes the brother over whom the brothers redeem themselves. Joseph who has not revealed himself is still Pharoh’s Viceroy as far as the brothers know. Joseph tests them. Will they abandon Benjamin like they abandoned Joseph?

    No, Judah comes forward and takes responsibility. With the brothers showing that they are united and will defend each other no matter the cost, Joseph reveals his true identity. “Is my father still alive?”, he asks. Now the entire family is reunited and Jacob is brought to Egypt.

    Regards,

    Jim

    • #25
  26. Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu Inactive
    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu
    @YehoshuaBenEliyahu

    According to Midrash Raba (rabbinic homiletical work from the 4th century), Joseph was 9 years old when Benjamin was born.  Joseph was 17 when he was sold into slavery, at which time Benjamin would have been 8.  When the brothers met in Egypt, Joseph was 39 and Benjamin was 30.

    • #26
  27. Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu Inactive
    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu
    @YehoshuaBenEliyahu

    James Gawron (View Comment):

    Yehoshua Ben-Eliyahu (View Comment):

    Rashi, the classical Torah commentator, says that Rachel saw through prophecy that Jacob was to have 12 sons and she was simply praying that the 12th son would also come from her. I don’t think this prayer would have bruised the ego of her new born son. It should also be noted that the relationship between Joseph and Benjamin, the 12th son who was born in answer to Rachel’s prayer, was very close.

    Yehoshua,

    Benjamin becomes the brother over whom the brothers redeem themselves. Joseph who has not revealed himself is still Pharoh’s Viceroy as far as the brothers know. Joseph tests them. Will they abandon Benjamin like they abandoned Joseph?

    No, Judah comes forward and takes responsibility. With the brothers showing that they are united and will defend each other no matter the cost, Joseph reveals his true identity. “Is my father still alive?”, he asks. Now the entire family is reunited and Jacob is brought to Egypt.

    Regards,

    Jim

    Some story!

    • #27
  28. Amy Schley Coolidge
    Amy Schley
    @AmySchley

    James Gawron (View Comment):
    Will they abandon Benjamin like they abandoned Joseph?

     Of course, Jacob’s comment didn’t exactly help the family peace. “But what if they keep Benjamin?” Nice to know how little his other ten sons mean to him. I’m sure they loved hearing the implied message that “Eh, if the Egyptians kept any of you as hostage, it wouldn’t break my heart.”

    • #28
  29. Boss Mongo Member
    Boss Mongo
    @BossMongo

    My son related to me: When he went through Hell Week as a Nob (Knob?) at The Citadel, some of the upper class cadre were a little put out that they weren’t generating more of an effect on him.

    He looked around, shrugged, and said, “My old man makes the Great Santini look like Mr. Rogers.  Is this the best you can do?”

    Proud dad moment, right there.

    • #29
  30. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Amy Schley (View Comment):

    James Gawron (View Comment):
    Will they abandon Benjamin like they abandoned Joseph?

    Of course, Jacob’s comment didn’t exactly help the family peace. “But what if they keep Benjamin?” Nice to know how little his other ten sons mean to him. I’m sure they loved hearing the implied message that “Eh, if the Egyptians kept any of you as hostage, it wouldn’t break my heart.”

    There is a much better explanation: Joseph does not know if he (like Ishmael, Abraham’s other sons by a different mother, and Esau) was really out of the family. Benjamin was the link, because they shared a mother.

    So initially he reckoned he was “out” – which is why he never “phoned home.” When his brothers turn up, he reckons his mother disqualified him, so offers to take Benjamin off their hands. When they go to the wall to keep Benjamin, Joseph realizes he has it backward – and that he is meant to be part of the family after all.

    [credit: Menachem Leibtag]

    • #30
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