Collateral Damage in the Culture War

 

There is an air of incivility in American society today: A simple elevator ride can turn in a lecture on social justicean editor of Think Progress is calling for people to “confront Republicans where they eat, where they sleep and where they work” and simply wearing a hat in a restaurant can touch off a violent attack.

Which got me thinking: What would I do if I were in a restaurant and a politically-based fight broke out as I was eating? Would I get involved if, say, a political argument broke out and it degenerated into fisticuffs? Would my reaction be different if I was by myself, or if it happened when I was with my family? What would I do if the fistfight turned even more violent and lethal force was clearly about to be used? Would I use lethal force in that situation? How far would I be willing to go to defend not only my life but my ideals as well?

It’s important to think of what might happen and what your actions might be before such things happen, because a plan isn’t going to suddenly materialize when you need one. Will you get involved in a shouting match if “your side” seems to be losing? Will you stop someone from being assaulted just because the message on their clothing has driven someone to violence? Will you step into a fight that was caused by a political disagreement? Where do you draw the line between minding your own business and standing up for what’s right?

I think about these things because it gives me a starting point to form a plan that I can put into action if such a thing happens in front of me. Rather than be frozen with inaction, I’ll have a starting point that I can use to evaluate what is happening and what I can do about it. I can do this because I’ve imagined what political violence in a restaurant or other place might be like, it won’t be an unthinkable event for me.

It saddens me that I have to think about such things. It would sadden me even more to be caught in the middle of a life-threatening situation without a plan or the means to defend my life and the lives of those dear to me, so I train and I prepare for a day I sincerely hope never happens.

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There are 65 comments.

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  1. Member

    Sad to say, but I too have been thinking the same things lately. I sure would feel the need to defend myself if necessary, but violence in elevators or restaurants may not be the best answer. Instead, as Candace Owens and Charlie Kirk have demonstrated, dontd engage, but film the event on your phone. Post the result to social media. And of course, call the cops if things degenerate to uncomfortably dangerous levels.

    • #1
    • October 1, 2018 at 5:16 am
    • 1 like
  2. Coolidge

    I don’t see how a dispute starting as a political fight would influence your use of deadly force. You already have developed an internal set of guidelines for deciding when to intervene; I don’t believe that the origin of the dispute has any bearing on how you would apply your own rules. Or perhaps more specifically it shouldn’t have any bearing; if anything I think it might make it less likely that you would intervene. Like most thinking people, the threshold is so high to draw your weapon that if you reach that point the origin of the dispute will be irrelevant.

    • #2
    • October 1, 2018 at 5:26 am
    • 5 likes
  3. Member

    How does he propose to pick out the Republicans in public places, let alone where they “sleep”? Does he think Republicans wear some sort of identifying badge or clothing? Not every Republican wears a MAGA hat. How does the mob know who to confront with its righteous outrage, to hold accountable for being “complicit in the destruction of our democracy”?

    • #3
    • October 1, 2018 at 5:49 am
    • 2 likes
  4. Contributor

    Kevin Creighton: A simple elevator ride can turn in a lecture on social justicean editor of Think Progress is calling for people to “confront Republicans where they eat, where they sleep and where they work” and simply wearing a hat in a restaurant can touch off a violent attack.

    Okay, so, a few things:

    First, it was clear from the context that Ian Millhiser was talking about confronting Republican office holders. And frankly, if you don’t want people shouting at you, you shouldn’t run for elected office.

    Second, the “violent attack” was a guy snatching a teenager’s MAGA hat and throwing a drink in his face. He was charged with felony theft for walking off with the hat.

    • #4
    • October 1, 2018 at 6:05 am
    • 1 like
  5. Member

    If I were at a restaurant where this was happening to someone else, I’d call the police immediately and then go to a manager and demand this situation be taken care of. If they did nothing, I’d give my statement to the police when they arrived and then make an example of them to every media outlet I could get to.

    If I were the object of the harassment, I would press charges against everyone that I could. In Pennsylvania, where I live and where the Kirk/Owens dust up occurred, this activity is considered harassment. I’d even go after the owners and the police if they did not take care of the situation well enough.

    • #5
    • October 1, 2018 at 6:07 am
    • 11 likes
  6. Member

    Just a thought…but no, not really, probably.

    • #6
    • October 1, 2018 at 6:21 am
    • 4 likes
  7. Member

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Kevin Creighton: A simple elevator ride can turn in a lecture on social justice, an editor of Think Progress is calling for people to “confront Republicans where they eat, where they sleep and where they work” and simply wearing a hat in a restaurant can touch off a violent attack.

    Okay, so, a few things:

    First, it was clear from the context that Ian Millhiser was talking about confronting Republican office holders. And frankly, if you don’t want people shouting at you, you shouldn’t run for elected office.

    Second, the “violent attack” was a guy snatching a teenager’s MAGA hat and throwing a drink in his face. He was charged with felony theft for walking off with the hat.

    Really, Fred? That’s the new deal, is it? Run for public office and kiss your sense of personal safety goodbye? Run for office and just assume that vile insults, threats to one’s children and aggressive behavior that would make any sensible person—and certainly any sentient woman—feel targeted and threatened is par for the course? As a middle-aged woman imagining herself in politics, how is it that I can know that these assaults are going to limit themselves to a stolen hat and a thrown drink? Should I just expect to get slapped a bit, too, maybe spat upon? Am I permitted to defend myself or is masochism also a job requirement?

    I can hear…yes…there it is….the far-off sound of 2020….Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump… 

    • #7
    • October 1, 2018 at 6:35 am
    • 15 likes
  8. Member

    GrannyDude (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Kevin Creighton: A simple elevator ride can turn in a lecture on social justice, an editor of Think Progress is calling for people to “confront Republicans where they eat, where they sleep and where they work” and simply wearing a hat in a restaurant can touch off a violent attack.

    Okay, so, a few things:

    First, it was clear from the context that Ian Millhiser was talking about confronting Republican office holders. And frankly, if you don’t want people shouting at you, you shouldn’t run for elected office.

    Second, the “violent attack” was a guy snatching a teenager’s MAGA hat and throwing a drink in his face. He was charged with felony theft for walking off with the hat.

    Really, Fred? That’s the new deal, is it? Run for public office and kiss your sense of personal safety goodbye? Run for office and just assume that vile insults, threats to one’s children and aggressive behavior that would make any sensible person—and certainly any sentient woman—feel targeted and threatened is par for the course? As a middle-aged woman imagining herself in politics, how is it that I can know that these assaults are going to limit themselves to a stolen hat and a thrown drink? Should I just expect to get slapped a bit, too, maybe spat upon? Am I permitted to defend myself or is masochism also a job requirement?

    I can hear…yes…there it is….the far-off sound of 2020….Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump…

    Indeed. For all the caterwauling and cringing at tweets and tut-tutting, there is a very real sense in which Trump represents a return to normalcy in a way that none of the 2012 or 2016 Republican candidates could (or any Democrat since 1960). Because this restaurant harassment and resistance movement are not normal. In fact they are a dangerous slide. 

    • #8
    • October 1, 2018 at 6:45 am
    • 7 likes
  9. Contributor

    GrannyDude (View Comment):
    Really, Fred? That’s the new deal, is it? Run for public office and kiss your sense of personal safety goodbye? Run for office and just assume that vile insults, threats to one’s children and aggressive behavior that would make any sensible person—and certainly any sentient woman—feel targeted and threatened is par for the course? As a middle-aged woman imagining herself in politics, how is it that I can know that these assaults are going to limit themselves to a stolen hat and a thrown drink? Should I just expect to get slapped a bit, too, maybe spat upon? Am I permitted to defend myself or is masochism also a job requirement?

    That’s not what I said.

    I didn’t say anything about personal safety, insults, threats to children or anything else like that.

    Let’s go to the context. I was responding this line in the OP:

    A simple elevator ride can turn in a lecture on social justicean editor of Think Progress is calling for people to “confront Republicans where they eat, where they sleep and where they work” and simply wearing a hat in a restaurant can touch off a violent attack.

    The editor at Think Progress is one Ian Millhiser, and this is the tweet linked to in the OP.

    From the context of the tweet, it is clear that he meant Republicans in public office.

    What happened to Flake was that two women yelled at him as he was getting on an elevator. At no point did Flake have to fear for his personal safety. Those women did not threaten his children.

    You know, I remember the summer of 2010, when Democratic members of Congress returned to their districts, held town hall meetings, and got shouted at by angry constituents. Lots of videos made the rounds in conservative circles. 

    But now, in 2018, when it’s Republicans who are wildly unpopular and are getting yelled at, suddenly its conflated with threats of violence. That’s a bunch of horse crap.

    I don’t care if its the US Senate or the local school board, if its an elected office, people are going to yell at you. That’s just how it goes. And frankly, that’s how it should be. I’d prefer if people didn’t yell, but they have the right to express themselves to their public officials.

    • #9
    • October 1, 2018 at 6:47 am
    • 1 like
  10. Member

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    GrannyDude (View Comment):
    Really, Fred? That’s the new deal, is it? Run for public office and kiss your sense of personal safety goodbye? Run for office and just assume that vile insults, threats to one’s children and aggressive behavior that would make any sensible person—and certainly any sentient woman—feel targeted and threatened is par for the course? As a middle-aged woman imagining herself in politics, how is it that I can know that these assaults are going to limit themselves to a stolen hat and a thrown drink? Should I just expect to get slapped a bit, too, maybe spat upon? Am I permitted to defend myself or is masochism also a job requirement?

    That’s not what I said.

    I didn’t say anything about personal safety, insults, threats to children or anything else like that.

    Let’s go to the context. I was responding this line in the OP:

    A simple elevator ride can turn in a lecture on social justice, an editor of Think Progress is calling for people to “confront Republicans where they eat, where they sleep and where they work” and simply wearing a hat in a restaurant can touch off a violent attack.

    The editor at Think Progress is one Ian Millhiser, and this is the tweet linked to in the OP.

    From the context of the tweet, it is clear that he meant Republicans in public office.

    What happened to Flake was that two women yelled at him as he was getting on an elevator. At no point did Flake have to fear for his personal safety. Those women did not threaten his children.

    You know, I remember the summer of 2010, when Democratic members of Congress returned to their districts, held town hall meetings, and got shouted at by angry constituents. Lots of videos made the rounds in conservative circles.

    But now, in 2018, when it’s Republicans who are wildly unpopular and are getting yelled at, suddenly its conflated with threats of violence. That’s a bunch of horse crap.

    I don’t care if its the US Senate or the local school board, if its an elected office, people are going to yell at you. That’s just how it goes. And frankly, that’s how it should be. I’d prefer if people didn’t yell, but they have the right to express themselves to their public officials.

    Fred, it’s one thing to get yelled at during a town hall meeting. Quite another to be accosted at non-business places like elevators and restaurants. And after the shooting of Republicans last year, the idea that a politician doesn’t need to fear for his safety just because it’s two women accosting him is 1) sexist and 2) dumb. 

    • #10
    • October 1, 2018 at 6:52 am
    • 12 likes
  11. Contributor

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    Fred, it’s one thing to get yelled at during a town hall meeting. Quite another to be accosted at non-business places like elevators and restaurants. And after the shooting of Republicans last year, the idea that a politician doesn’t need to fear for his safety just because it’s two women accosting him is 1) sexist and 2) dumb. 

    Look, I get that it’s part of the conservative victimhood culture to act like Republicans are being hunted all the time by crazed leftists.

    But for crying out loud. It was an elevator in the US Capitol.

    Did Jeff Flake look scared to you? Please. Politicians get yelled at all the time.

     

    • #11
    • October 1, 2018 at 6:59 am
    • 1 like
  12. Member

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    Fred, it’s one thing to get yelled at during a town hall meeting. Quite another to be accosted at non-business places like elevators and restaurants. And after the shooting of Republicans last year, the idea that a politician doesn’t need to fear for his safety just because it’s two women accosting him is 1) sexist and 2) dumb.

    Look, I get that it’s part of the conservative victimhood culture to act like Republicans are being hunted all the time by crazed leftists.

    But for crying out loud. It was an elevator in the US Capitol.

    Did Jeff Flake look scared to you? Please. Politicians get yelled at all the time.

     

    I’m not a victim and don’t support a culture of one. However, crazed leftists are making more and more appearances. I say nip it in the bud rather than let it grow. 

    So it was an elevator in the US Capitol. What’s next, the crapper too? There’s reasonable petition and then there’s harassment. Even politicians shouldn’t be harassed. Or threatened. Or shot. 

    • #12
    • October 1, 2018 at 7:04 am
    • 7 likes
  13. Coolidge
    1. Yes, we have a right to solicit, or to protest, or to harangue The Man.
    2. Yes, conservatives have done this in the past. I hope they keep doing it.
    3. When the left does this, we can expect violence to be a part of it. We can expect certain people to claim the right is just as bad. We know they’re wrong.
    • #13
    • October 1, 2018 at 7:15 am
    • 4 likes
  14. Member

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    Fred, it’s one thing to get yelled at during a town hall meeting. Quite another to be accosted at non-business places like elevators and restaurants. And after the shooting of Republicans last year, the idea that a politician doesn’t need to fear for his safety just because it’s two women accosting him is 1) sexist and 2) dumb. 

    There is no longer a sense of broadly-accepted limits held by all responsible citizens regardless of political party.

    A guy standing up and yelling at me at a Town Hall meeting is very different from a man screaming into my face in a restaurant or elevator, particularly at a time when reasonable people (you evidently among them) roll their eyes at any objection.

    This sort of behavior is not self-limited. It ramps up. The rhetoric being thrown carelessly around by the left is already resulting in assaults and, perhaps more disquieting, is already suppressing the civilized, if energetic, encounters that ordinary citizens with varying viewpoints ought to be having with one another. It is already squelching quotidian free speech, which is exactly what it is intended to do. 

    To name the usual example: What doomed the Weimar Republic was not an excess of hate speech. It was the accommodation of political violence. Grabbing a hat and throwing a drink is and ought to be plenty violent enough to deserve that label.

     

     
     

     

    • #14
    • October 1, 2018 at 7:17 am
    • 7 likes
  15. Member

    GrannyDude (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    Fred, it’s one thing to get yelled at during a town hall meeting. Quite another to be accosted at non-business places like elevators and restaurants. And after the shooting of Republicans last year, the idea that a politician doesn’t need to fear for his safety just because it’s two women accosting him is 1) sexist and 2) dumb.

    There is no longer a sense of broadly-accepted limits held by all responsible citizens regardless of political party.

    A guy standing up and yelling at me at a Town Hall meeting is very different from a man screaming into my face in a restaurant or elevator, particularly at a time when reasonable people (you evidently among them) roll their eyes at any objection.

    This sort of behavior is not self-limited. It ramps up. The rhetoric being thrown carelessly around by the left is already resulting in assaults and, perhaps more disquieting, is already suppressing the civilized, if energetic, encounters that ordinary citizens with varying viewpoints ought to be having with one another. It is already squelching quotidian free speech, which is exactly what it is intended to do.

    To name the usual example: What doomed the Weimar Republic was not an excess of hate speech. It was the accommodation of political violence. Grabbing a hat and throwing a drink is and ought to be plenty violent enough to deserve that label.

     

     

     

    GrannyDude, I’m not rolling my eyes at you. I’m agreeing with you. 

    • #15
    • October 1, 2018 at 7:20 am
    • 1 like
  16. Contributor

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    I’m not a victim and don’t support a culture of one. However, crazed leftists are making more and more appearances. I say nip it in the bud rather than let it grow. 

    Sure. Just so I’m clear, can we define “crazed”?

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    So it was an elevator in the US Capitol. What’s next, the crapper too? There’s reasonable petition and then there’s harassment. Even politicians shouldn’t be harassed. Or threatened. Or shot. 

    The elevator in the US Capitol is a public space. The crapper, as you so elegantly put it, is a private space.

     

    • #16
    • October 1, 2018 at 7:23 am
    • 1 like
  17. Contributor

    GrannyDude (View Comment):
    To name the usual example: What doomed the Weimar Republic was not an excess of hate speech. It was the accommodation of political violence. Grabbing a hat and throwing a drink is and ought to be plenty violent enough to deserve that label.

    Right. I’m not sure the Weimar Republic was brought down by an epidemic of people snatching hats off each other’s heads. To the extent that this was an act of political violence, it’s not being accommodated. The guy is being charged with felony theft.

    But when I see a story about a guy throwing a drink in someone’s face and stealing his hat, I don’t think “Oh my God. We are on the verge of a civil war. I better have a plan to defend myself. When the [expletive] goes down, I better be ready.”

    (Language warning in the above link.)

    • #17
    • October 1, 2018 at 7:35 am
    • 1 like
  18. Member

    Just to keep the thread on track, the original post was about being attacked in private life not being cornered at town halls and in the elevator on Capital Hill. The later is being a nuisance and being rude. The former is assault. Comparing the two is silly and in this case dangerous. Every individual has rights in this country, at least we used to have rights. Democrats have a very long history of attacking folks for being in restaurants. Referring to what is now happening as merely conservatives trying to create a “victim culture” is idiotic.

    • #18
    • October 1, 2018 at 7:40 am
    • 8 likes
  19. Contributor

    RyanFalcone (View Comment):
    Referring to what is now happening as merely conservatives trying to create a “victim culture” is idiotic.

    The conservative victim culture is already well established.

    • #19
    • October 1, 2018 at 7:45 am
    • 1 like
  20. Coolidge

    Fred Cole (View Comment):But when I see a story about a guy throwing a drink in someone’s face and stealing his hat, I don’t think “Oh my God. We are on the verge of a civil war. I better have a plan to defend myself. When the [expletive] goes down, I better be ready.”

    (Language warning in the above link.)

    You are ignoring the fact that it does, however, show a noteworthy change in what passes for allowable behavior – defining deviancy down. It matters. Fortunately the San Antonio PD made a point of quickly arresting the malefactor. Adult men picking on scrawny teens in public restaurants (over politics) is a very bad development. 

    You make a point of overstating the OP’s argument. My impression is that you spend a lot of time arguing against strawmen.

     

    • #20
    • October 1, 2018 at 7:46 am
    • 9 likes
  21. Member

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    I’m not a victim and don’t support a culture of one. However, crazed leftists are making more and more appearances. I say nip it in the bud rather than let it grow.

    Sure. Just so I’m clear, can we define “crazed”?

     

     

    Already done. Harassment and shooting are a pretty good start. 

    • #21
    • October 1, 2018 at 7:49 am
    • 4 likes
  22. Contributor

    Tex929rr (View Comment):

    You are ignoring the fact that it does, however, show a noteworthy change in what passes for allowable behavior – defining deviancy down. [emphasis added]

    Right. Except it is literally not allowable behavior, because, as you pointed out

    Fortunately the San Antonio PD made a point of quickly arresting the malefactor.

     

    • #22
    • October 1, 2018 at 7:50 am
    • Like
  23. Member

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

     

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    So it was an elevator in the US Capitol. What’s next, the crapper too? There’s reasonable petition and then there’s harassment. Even politicians shouldn’t be harassed. Or threatened. Or shot.

    The elevator in the US Capitol is a public space. The crapper, as you so elegantly put it, is a private space.

     

    No, public restrooms are not private spaces. They’re public spaces still even if they’re segregated.

    But you’re still not addressing my point. As you do. Whatevs. 

    • #23
    • October 1, 2018 at 7:52 am
    • 2 likes
  24. Contributor
    Kevin Creighton Post author

    RyanFalcone (View Comment):

    Just to keep the thread on track, the original post was about being attacked in private life not being cornered at town halls and in the elevator on Capital Hill. The later is being a nuisance and being rude. The former is assault. Comparing the two is silly and in this case dangerous. Every individual has rights in this country, at least we used to have rights. Democrats have a very long history of attacking folks for being in restaurants. Referring to what is now happening as merely conservatives trying to create a “victim culture” is idiotic.

    Also, there is documented case after documented case of conservatives being attacked on college campuses for the heinous crime of being an obvious conservative. 

    What happens when that behavior moves off the college campus and into the surrounding neighborhoods? 

    • #24
    • October 1, 2018 at 7:54 am
    • 6 likes
  25. Contributor

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

     

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    So it was an elevator in the US Capitol. What’s next, the crapper too? There’s reasonable petition and then there’s harassment. Even politicians shouldn’t be harassed. Or threatened. Or shot.

    The elevator in the US Capitol is a public space. The crapper, as you so elegantly put it, is a private space.

     

    No, public restrooms are not private spaces. They’re public spaces still even if they’re segregated.

    But you’re still not addressing my point. As you do. Whatevs.

    Sorry. What was the point that I’m not addressing?

    • #25
    • October 1, 2018 at 7:55 am
    • 1 like
  26. Member

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

     

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    So it was an elevator in the US Capitol. What’s next, the crapper too? There’s reasonable petition and then there’s harassment. Even politicians shouldn’t be harassed. Or threatened. Or shot.

    The elevator in the US Capitol is a public space. The crapper, as you so elegantly put it, is a private space.

     

    No, public restrooms are not private spaces. They’re public spaces still even if they’re segregated.

    But you’re still not addressing my point. As you do. Whatevs.

    Sorry. What was the point that I’m not addressing?

    Never mind. Doubtless you’re re-read the posts on the thread and still think that defining “crazed” is the priortity point. I don’t think I could articulate it better than I already have, so like I said: whatevs. 

    • #26
    • October 1, 2018 at 8:00 am
    • 1 like
  27. Contributor

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    I’m not a victim and don’t support a culture of one. However, crazed leftists are making more and more appearances. I say nip it in the bud rather than let it grow.

    Sure. Just so I’m clear, can we define “crazed”?

     

     

    Already done. Harassment and shooting are a pretty good start.

    Can you define “harassment” then?

    • #27
    • October 1, 2018 at 8:03 am
    • 1 like
  28. Contributor

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

     

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    So it was an elevator in the US Capitol. What’s next, the crapper too? There’s reasonable petition and then there’s harassment. Even politicians shouldn’t be harassed. Or threatened. Or shot.

    The elevator in the US Capitol is a public space. The crapper, as you so elegantly put it, is a private space.

     

    No, public restrooms are not private spaces. They’re public spaces still even if they’re segregated.

    But you’re still not addressing my point. As you do. Whatevs.

    Sorry. What was the point that I’m not addressing?

    Never mind. Doubtless you’re re-read the posts on the thread and still think that defining “crazed” is the priortity point. I don’t think I could articulate it better than I already have, so like I said: whatevs.

    Dude, I’m trying to engage you here. You claim I’m not addressing your point. I’m trying to address it. But I’m unclear what point I’m not addressing. 

    • #28
    • October 1, 2018 at 8:04 am
    • 1 like
  29. Member

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    I’m not a victim and don’t support a culture of one. However, crazed leftists are making more and more appearances. I say nip it in the bud rather than let it grow.

    Sure. Just so I’m clear, can we define “crazed”?

     

     

    Already done. Harassment and shooting are a pretty good start.

    Can you define “harassment” then?

    Whatever definition you would use would probably apply. Then again, you’re a radical, so maybe not. 

    • #29
    • October 1, 2018 at 8:08 am
    • 1 like
  30. Member

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Ed G. (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

     

    Ed G. (View Comment):
    So it was an elevator in the US Capitol. What’s next, the crapper too? There’s reasonable petition and then there’s harassment. Even politicians shouldn’t be harassed. Or threatened. Or shot.

    The elevator in the US Capitol is a public space. The crapper, as you so elegantly put it, is a private space.

     

    No, public restrooms are not private spaces. They’re public spaces still even if they’re segregated.

    But you’re still not addressing my point. As you do. Whatevs.

    Sorry. What was the point that I’m not addressing?

    Never mind. Doubtless you’re re-read the posts on the thread and still think that defining “crazed” is the priortity point. I don’t think I could articulate it better than I already have, so like I said: whatevs.

    Dude, I’m trying to engage you here. You claim I’m not addressing your point. I’m trying to address it. But I’m unclear what point I’m not addressing.

    And I answered you. I don’t really care, though, because experience tells me such engagement will go nowhere anyway. 

    • #30
    • October 1, 2018 at 8:12 am
    • 1 like
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