If the Lord Gave Us Free Will, Then Hell Is a Thing

 

I know that some people don’t believe in Hell. I want to give those folks an opportunity to change my mind, so my short essay today will be to argue for the certainty of everlasting hellfire and damnation being a possible fate for any person.

I begin with the stipulation that man has free will. The Lord made man in His image, which means that we, like the Lord, can choose our actions.

As the Catechism of the Catholic Church states,

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”26

The Lord is not merely pretending at this, like a parent who knows that no matter what willful stubbornness a child may display, the whole family will be showing up for Aunt Martha’s jubilee on time, dressed to the nines, with smiles pasted on.

We really do have free will, so we can really choose God, or we can choose not-God. The Lord is kind and merciful, slow to anger and rich in compassion, so I’ve been told, and He really, really wants us to choose Him so the opportunities are many, but for each person there comes a moment of final judgment.

As my Catechism says,

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven–through a purification594 or immediately,595— or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

In other words, at the moment of our deaths, the Lord will allow us to see our lives clearly and understand them and the just judgement that He renders will either be for us to live with Him forever in Heaven, for many of us after we are made perfect through a purification (we call it Purgatory — pray for those souls), for others who are already ready to live immediately in the fullness of the Lord, or, to live without Him forever in the state of Hell.

Hell is not other people, but rather the absence of the Lord, so it really is a choice that we men are capable of making.

One might argue against this point by saying that, well, like a loving parent, who knows that the child will be happier if he is made to attend Aunt Martha’s party well dressed and pleasantly behaved, God, who is so much more loving than any parent can be, would want our happiness and would not allow us to choose Hell, so it can’t really be a thing. His mercy is infinite!

I disagree. I believe in mercy, but I also believe the Lord’s justice is without end, and I know there are really depths in the human soul that are capable of great evil. Some people choose Hell, of this I am sure.

And the Lord who loves us all with a boundless, infinite love, gives it to them. Of that, I am also sure.

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  1. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    I see no Torah support for the idea that G-d knows the future. Since He changes His mind in response to our own words and deeds, the opposite seems to be true.

    I think the entire idea of G-d knowing the future is based in more Greek logic games. G-d created the world – a finite thing. He gave us responsibility for it – along with the free will. To do this, G-d had to limit Himself. Which is why there is space for us and the physical world around us.

    So defending the existence of free will is trivial as far as I am concerned.

    • #121
  2. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    How are we to reconcile the genealogy of Jesus in Matthew 1 and the genealogy of Jesus in Luke 3 ?

    Here’s Matthew 1:15-16

    and Eliud the father of Eleazar, and Eleazar the father of Matthan, and Matthan the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called the Messiah.

    Here’s Luke 3:23-24

    Jesus was about thirty years old when he began his work. He was the son (as was thought) of Joseph son of Heli, son of Matthat, son of Levi, son of Melchi, son of Jannai, son of Joseph

    There are conflicting genealogies.  They can’t both be right.  

    Was one of the Gospel writers simply mistaken?

     

    • #122
  3. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    There are conflicting genealogies. They can’t both be right.

    Sure they can. Names mean things. They show the pathways to Christ consciousness through other states of consciousness.

    • #123
  4. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    iWe (View Comment):

    I see no Torah support for the idea that G-d knows the future. Since He changes His mind in response to our own words and deeds, the opposite seems to be true.

    I think the entire idea of G-d knowing the future is based in more Greek logic games. G-d created the world – a finite thing. He gave us responsibility for it – along with the free will. To do this, G-d had to limit Himself. Which is why there is space for us and the physical world around us.

    So defending the existence of free will is trivial as far as I am concerned.

    Malachi 3:6: if G-d does not know the future and does not change, then R”L He knows nothing. Or maybe that’s a logic game.

    • #124
  5. Mark Wilson Inactive
    Mark Wilson
    @MarkWilson

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    To that, I say there is no free will. I am a product of all of the genetic and environmental influences on me.

     

    I, for one, choose not to believe in free will.  

    Or do I?

    • #125
  6. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Mark Wilson (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    To that, I say there is no free will. I am a product of all of the genetic and environmental influences on me.

     

    I, for one, choose not to believe in free will.

    Or do I?

    What choice do we have?

    • #126
  7. AchillesLastand Member
    AchillesLastand
    @

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    How are we to reconcile the genealogy of Jesus in Matthew 1 and the genealogy of Jesus in Luke 3 ?

    Here’s Matthew 1:15-16

    and Eliud the father of Eleazar, and Eleazar the father of Matthan, and Matthan the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called the Messiah.

    Here’s Luke 3:23-24

    Jesus was about thirty years old when he began his work. He was the son (as was thought) of Joseph son of Heli, son of Matthat, son of Levi, son of Melchi, son of Jannai, son of Joseph

    There are conflicting genealogies. They can’t both be right.

    Was one of the Gospel writers simply mistaken?

     

    No.

    Matthew and Luke actually give two different genealogies. Matthew gives the genealogy of Jesus through Joseph, the legal, though not the physical father of Jesus. Luke, on the other hand, gives the ancestry of Jesus through Mary from whom Jesus was descended physically as to his humanity. This is a beautiful fulfillment of prophecy and actually testifies to the accuracy of the Bible. Through Joseph, Jesus became the legal heir to the throne while at the same time bypassed the curse of Coniah as prophesied in Jeremiah 22:24-30. Both, of course, were in the line of David so that Jesus had a legal right to the throne as the adopted son of Joseph and was at the same time a physical descendent of David through Mary.

    The Ryrie Study Bible gives an excellent summary of the issues here:

    Although Coniah had seven sons (perhaps adopted; cf. 1 Chron. 3:17), none occupied the throne. So, as far as a continuing dynasty was concerned, Coniah was to be considered “childless.” Although his line of descendants retained the legal throne rights, no physical descendant (no man of his descendants) would ever prosperously reign on the Davidic throne. The genealogy of Matthew traces the descent of Jesus through Solomon and Jeconiah (Heb., Coniah; Matt. 1:12); this is the genealogy of Jesus’ legal father, Joseph. Luke traces Jesus’ physical descent back through Mary and Nathan to David, bypassing Jeconiah’s line and showing accurately the fulfillment of this prophecy of Jeremiah. If Jesus had been born only in the line of Joseph (and thus of Jeconiah), He would not have been qualified to reign on the throne of David in the Millennium. See note on Matt. 1:11.

    • #127
  8. AchillesLastand Member
    AchillesLastand
    @

    iWe (View Comment):

    I see no Torah support for the idea that G-d knows the future. Since He changes His mind in response to our own words and deeds, the opposite seems to be true.

    I think the entire idea of G-d knowing the future is based in more Greek logic games. G-d created the world – a finite thing. He gave us responsibility for it – along with the free will. To do this, G-d had to limit Himself. Which is why there is space for us and the physical world around us.

    So defending the existence of free will is trivial as far as I am concerned.

    Ummm…how about the Abrahamic covenant?

    Gen. 12:1   Now  the LORD said  to Abram, “Go from your country  and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. 2  And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3  I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and  in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” 

    At that point, there was no nation, just Abram. Fast forward 400 years. Lo and behold, hundreds of thousands Israelites (“a great nation”) left Egypt for Canaan, and after a 40-yr vacation in the Sinai, took possession of the land (“a land I will show you”) promised in Gen 12:1-3. Abram, later renamed Abraham, is revered by all three major monotheistic faiths (“I will make your name great” and “and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed”).

    Surely this counts as a prophecy that was fulfilled?

    • #128
  9. Sisyphus Member
    Sisyphus
    @Sisyphus

    AchillesLastand (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment):

    I see no Torah support for the idea that G-d knows the future. Since He changes His mind in response to our own words and deeds, the opposite seems to be true.

    I think the entire idea of G-d knowing the future is based in more Greek logic games. G-d created the world – a finite thing. He gave us responsibility for it – along with the free will. To do this, G-d had to limit Himself. Which is why there is space for us and the physical world around us.

    So defending the existence of free will is trivial as far as I am concerned.

    Ummm…how about the Abrahamic covenant?

    Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. 2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

    At that point, there was no nation, just Abram. Fast forward 400 years. Lo and behold, hundreds of thousands Israelites (“a great nation”) left Egypt for Canaan, and after a 40-yr vacation in the Sinai, took possession of the land (“a land I will show you”) promised in Gen 12:1-3. Abram, later renamed Abraham, is revered by all three major monotheistic faiths (“I will make your name great” and “and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed”).

    Surely this counts as a prophecy that was fulfilled?

    It counts as a promise that was fulfilled. Prophets speak messages from God, and God is more than powerful enough to fulfill his promises.

    • #129
  10. AchillesLastand Member
    AchillesLastand
    @

    Sisyphus (View Comment):
    It counts as a promise that was fulfilled. Prophets speak messages from God, and God is more than powerful enough to fulfill his promises.

    Yes.

    But I was responding @iwe’s comment:

    iWe (View Comment): I see no Torah support for the idea that G-d knows the future.

    My point, which you apparently agree with, is that God achieves whatever result He wants, which, I think, means the God does “know the future,” at least to the degree that He determines the future.

    iWe (View Comment): Since He changes His mind in response to our own words and deeds, the opposite seems to be true.

    I’m not sure that God changes His mind. Here are a couple of excerpts from two meditations on this issue:

    R. C. Sproul – In regard to Numbers 14:

    There’s one sense in which it seems God is changing His mind, and there’s another sense in which the Bible says God never changes His mind because God is omniscient. He knows all things from the beginning, and He is immutable. He is unchanging. There’s no shadow of turning within Him. He knows what Moses is going to say to Him before Moses even opens his mouth to plead for these people. Then after Moses has actually said it, does God suddenly change His mind? He doesn’t have any more information than He had a moment before. Nothing has changed as far as God’s knowledge or His appraisal of the situation.

    Don Stewart – In regard to Exodus 32:14, 1 Samuel 15:11, and Jonah 3:10

    The seeming changing of God’s mind in these and in other situations makes people wonder if God is wavering in His word. But this is not the case. In the situation with Moses God was angry because the people had rejected Him in favor of an idol. His desire to destroy them was not unalterable. Moses’ intercession on behalf of the people kept them from being destroyed. From humanity’s point of view God’s mind was changed but God had known all along what would happen. Moses prayed for mercy and God answered his prayer.

    Limited, physical, fallible, humans can never completely “know” or “figure out” an infinite, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent God. God is God; we are not.

    • #130
  11. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    AchillesLastand (View Comment):

    Abram, later renamed Abraham, is revered by all three major monotheistic faiths (“I will make your name great” and “and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed”).

    Surely this counts as a prophecy that was fulfilled?

    I wouldn’t call it a prophecy, exactly – it was a promise. I did not suggest that G-d break His promises!

    • #131
  12. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    AchillesLastand (View Comment):

    iWe (View Comment): Since He changes His mind in response to our own words and deeds, the opposite seems to be true.

    I’m not sure that God changes His mind. Here are a couple of excerpts from two meditations on this issue:

    R. C. Sproul – In regard to Numbers 14:

    There’s one sense in which it seems God is changing His mind, and there’s another sense in which the Bible says God never changes His mind because God is omniscient.

    This is exactly the kind of “analysis” that drives me nuts. Where in the Torah does it say that G-d is omniscient? Or perfect? Or unchanging? Or infallible?

    NOWHERE.

    This is an invention of Christianity, deeply influenced by Greek “logic.”

    • #132
  13. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    AchillesLastand (View Comment):
    Limited, physical, fallible, humans can never completely “know” or “figure out” an infinite, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent God. God is God; we are not.

    And yet the entire world is knowable – we have to ask the right questions, but after thousands of years, not one of G-d’s natural creations has thus far been beyond our ability to penetrate and learn and know. (Though women are pretty challenging…)

    Why is G-d any different? After all, He endowed US – and gave us the the fruit that allowed us to comprehend the world.

    • #133
  14. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    iWe (View Comment):
    (Though women are pretty challenging…)

    Just repeating this one.

    • #134
  15. AchillesLastand Member
    AchillesLastand
    @

    iWe (View Comment):
    Why is G-d any different? After all, He endowed US – and gave us the the fruit that allowed us to comprehend the world.

    Yes, we have the capacity to investigate and attempt (sometimes succeeding, sometimes not so much) to comprehend the world. The world.

    The fact is that we still can’t comprehend the world – everyday we hear of some new discovery, or more often, some discovery that what we always thought was true, was not true at all, or true for a different reason, or in a different way.

    We’ve been building larger and larger telescopes, and larger and larger hadron colliders, but it’s always the same: we still haven’t found “bedrock,” the true ground of being. How could we, since the true ground is not of this world at all.

    • #135
  16. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    AchillesLastand (View Comment):

    The fact is that we still can’t comprehend the world ….

    Of course we can. The technology we have developed speaks directly to this – compare our material wealth to 100 or 1,000 years ago.

    we still haven’t found “bedrock,” the true ground of being. How could we, since the true ground is not of this world at all.

    Since I think “true ground of being” is an unprovable religious belief that has nothing to do with my religious persuasion, I’ll leave you to your own beliefs.

     

    • #136
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