If the Lord Gave Us Free Will, Then Hell Is a Thing

 

I know that some people don’t believe in Hell. I want to give those folks an opportunity to change my mind, so my short essay today will be to argue for the certainty of everlasting hellfire and damnation being a possible fate for any person.

I begin with the stipulation that man has free will. The Lord made man in His image, which means that we, like the Lord, can choose our actions.

As the Catechism of the Catholic Church states,

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”26

The Lord is not merely pretending at this, like a parent who knows that no matter what willful stubbornness a child may display, the whole family will be showing up for Aunt Martha’s jubilee on time, dressed to the nines, with smiles pasted on.

We really do have free will, so we can really choose God, or we can choose not-God. The Lord is kind and merciful, slow to anger and rich in compassion, so I’ve been told, and He really, really wants us to choose Him so the opportunities are many, but for each person there comes a moment of final judgment.

As my Catechism says,

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven–through a purification594 or immediately,595— or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

In other words, at the moment of our deaths, the Lord will allow us to see our lives clearly and understand them and the just judgement that He renders will either be for us to live with Him forever in Heaven, for many of us after we are made perfect through a purification (we call it Purgatory — pray for those souls), for others who are already ready to live immediately in the fullness of the Lord, or, to live without Him forever in the state of Hell.

Hell is not other people, but rather the absence of the Lord, so it really is a choice that we men are capable of making.

One might argue against this point by saying that, well, like a loving parent, who knows that the child will be happier if he is made to attend Aunt Martha’s party well dressed and pleasantly behaved, God, who is so much more loving than any parent can be, would want our happiness and would not allow us to choose Hell, so it can’t really be a thing. His mercy is infinite!

I disagree. I believe in mercy, but I also believe the Lord’s justice is without end, and I know there are really depths in the human soul that are capable of great evil. Some people choose Hell, of this I am sure.

And the Lord who loves us all with a boundless, infinite love, gives it to them. Of that, I am also sure.

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  1. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):
    I think any priest would tell you that Hell is real and not a story, especially those trained in exorcism.

    Agreement that Hell is real isn’t necessarily agreement on the exact nature of Hell, though.

    • #61
  2. milkchaser Member
    milkchaser
    @milkchaser

    CB Toder aka Mama Toad (View Comment):
    Prayer may not have been “scientifically proven to work,” but it also has not been scientifically proven not to work.

    It’s one or the other. It either works to affect the outcome targeted by the prayer measurably more of the time than not or the outcome is random. There is no evidence that the effect of prayer on the outcome of any event is distinguishable from random outcomes where prayer is not known to have been used.

    Prayer comforts those who feel that otherwise, they have no power in a situation. That’s the only way in which it works.

    • #62
  3. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member
    CB Toder aka Mama Toad
    @CBToderakaMamaToad

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):
    The exorcist that allowed the filming of the young woman in Italy who was possessed was terrifying – I just heard a bit of it on a radio interview and my sister sent me the story that was originally in Vanity Fair.

    Vanity Fair.

    Here’s a bit about exorcism and an interview of William Friedkin by Raymond Arroyo:

    • #63
  4. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member
    CB Toder aka Mama Toad
    @CBToderakaMamaToad

    milkchaser (View Comment):
    It’s one or the other.

    Are you claiming that science has proven that prayer is not effective because the study did not show prayer to be effective? 

    • #64
  5. milkchaser Member
    milkchaser
    @milkchaser

    There is a relevant discussion at around 40 minutes into the Harvard Lunch Club podcast this week (titled “Illegal Printer”). Mike Stopa reads some correspondence between himself and his wise friend.

    • #65
  6. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member
    CB Toder aka Mama Toad
    @CBToderakaMamaToad

    milkchaser (View Comment):
    Mike Stopa reads some correspondence between himself and his wise friend.

    And?

    • #66
  7. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    We can’t know.

    I think the biblical case for eternal fire and brimstone for humans is inconclusive.

    I think it is very challenging to defend the justice of inflicting infinite pain for finite sin.

    I think it is very challenging to reconcile that apparent injustice with a just and merciful G-d. (It is also hard to understand what the word “merciful” means in this context.)

    If one expands the list of those destined for eternal damnation to include all those who are not “saved” through a personal knowledge of Jesus Christ — so that it includes, say, the young woman who lives and dies in an isolated village in Afghanistan without ever being exposed to Christian teaching — then I think it is probably impossible to reconcile that with any kind of justice or mercy.

    So, no. We can’t know if there is a Hell, but I very much doubt it.

    We don’t know what God does at the moment of death for someone like that.

     

    • #67
  8. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Hell is something that only exists within the imagination of some human beings. It’s very likely that the idea of hell was first discussed when people reflected on the injustices seen in among humans on earth.

    People who were obedient to the God of Israel were being oppressed while people who were not obedient to the God of Israel were not oppressed and living lives of relative abundance. So, some people began to think of a future intervention by God, a day when someone would right the wrongs the existed in society. The last would be first and the first would be last.

    Jesus told his followers that within “this generation” God would intervene and would turn the tables so that the wicked would no longer rule over those obedient to God’s commandments.

    But generations passed and nothing happened. There was no son of man descending from the clouds. So, in reality, there is no heaven or hell. There is just the natural world.

    Could there be something beyond the natural world? Perhaps. But once we discover, scientifically, something beyond the natural world, it becomes part of the natural world. For example, let’s say that it could be proven that prayer for cancer patients works to cure their cancer.

    Prayer would no longer be part of the supernatural; it would become a form of medicine. Instead of going to the doctor to get a cancer treatment, you would go to church and have people pray for you and your cancer would go away.

    But prayer has not been scientifically proven to work. So far as we know, only the natural world exists. This means there is no heaven and no hell.

    Heavy – There are countless examples in the Bible, in both the Old Testament and New Testament where entire kingdoms and fortunes were destroyed, battles lost, and won when the odds were very low, and genuine repentance restored those lives, fortunes, kingdoms.  The Book of Job for example.  Jesus sent His Holy Spirit and said the wicked have no hold over those who have received it – in the afterlife – those souls are sealed.  He never said evil would cease on this earth – that free will would be eliminated.  Matthew 10:28 and Mark  12:4 say: “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”

    • #68
  9. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    CB Toder aka Mama Toad (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    CB Toder aka Mama Toad (View Comment):
    I don’t mean to be a downer, but in this post, I am stipulating that there is free will.

    One of the biggest dichotomies in Christian theology is how you can have free will along with predestination. Ranks right up there with the theodicy . . .

    For Catholics, predestination is not really a thing. We don’t believe in it, since it is contrary to free will, so we don’t face that dichotomy.

    And the answer to how can a good God allow evil is found in the free will of the individual to choose evil.

    That’s my answer, anyway.

    Rather than saying “predestination is not really a thing,” I think it might be more helpful to say God has foreknowledge about our destiny that we don’t, since, uh, we’re not God (shocking news to leftist central planners). That he knows our destiny is in no way helpful to us making free-will choices in our time-bound existence. And choose we must. 

    Therefore, predestiny — meh. God knows our destiny and we have free will, but only one of those involves our choices. Focusing on predestiny is a waste of time.

    • #69
  10. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member
    CB Toder aka Mama Toad
    @CBToderakaMamaToad

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    God knows our destiny and we have free will, but only one of those involves our choices. Focusing on predestiny is a waste of time.

    Sure, that’s fine.

    I’m not sure how “it’s not a thing” and it “is a waste of time” are very different, though.

    Aquinas makes the distinction between the predestinator and the one who destiny is predestined.

    I think that the verb is confusing, since the Lord is outside time, unless we are talking about Christ entering history as a man, and the Lord’s knowledge is not pre- or post- anything. He just Is, as He revealed to Moses.

    At no time in my Catholic upbringing was predestination ever a thing. Of course the Lord knows everything, including what my judgement will be, but that doesn’t take away my free will in deciding it.

    • #70
  11. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Kephalithos (View Comment):

    In my non-theologically-trained, borderline-heretical opinion, Lewis’s conception of Hell is the most believable.

    Hell isn’t so much a “place” where God flings sinners; rather, it’s more a state of existence befitting a soul so disordered as to be incapable of perceiving joy, goodness, and grace.

    Indeed, but expanding on Lewis (The Great Divorce) and adding a dash of Dante, those who choose not-God (Good) prefer not-Good, aka hell. God does not force us to choose Him, even though it would be best for us if we did. In other words, He prioritizes our freedom over our destiny.

    I believe it’s very likely that the suffering in hell is due to the lack of substance (good) of its denizens (Lewis describes those who’ve chosen hell as being in pain simply by walking across the grass at the edge of Heaven). SPOILER ALERT: Lewis conceives of hell as a tiny crack in the soil on the periphery of Heaven through which the “bus” carrying the residents from hell emerges.

    The existence of Good (Substance) in Heaven is torture to those who (knowingly) reject it. Heaven and hell are the same “place.” It’s the (knowing) choices we make in our life that determine how we Are in it. 

     

    • #71
  12. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    CB Toder aka Mama Toad (View Comment):
    Of course the Lord knows everything, including what my judgement will be, but that doesn’t take away my free will in deciding it.

    Agreed. I think we’re saying the same thing. God’s foreknowledge does not preclude us making free-will choices. I’ve heard a priest (Bishop Barron?) say, in light of that, we believe both in “predestiny” (God’s foreknowledge) and free-will.

    • #72
  13. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Henry Racette (View Comment):
    If one expands the list of those destined for eternal damnation to include all those who are not “saved” through a personal knowledge of Jesus Christ — so that it includes, say, the young woman who lives and dies in an isolated village in Afghanistan without ever being exposed to Christian teaching — then I think it is probably impossible to reconcile that with any kind of justice or mercy.

    It’s called “invincible ignorance” and it doesn’t keep anyone out of Heaven. At least, not in the Catholic view. You cannot be held responsible for what you’ve never had the chance to know about and, therefore, either accept or reject. Culpability is measured by knowledge (understanding) and free-will choice.

    • #73
  14. Curt North Inactive
    Curt North
    @CurtNorth

    Considering that the OP was a question on the existence of hell and not a debate on God, it’s strange that a few atheists are on here confirming my experience with most atheists, not positive to say the least.  But even more than that, I find it truly fascinating that atheists would feel a need to even comment on this post, to convince us by their brilliant replies that God is a fiction and the natural world is all we have.  One might even say they’re evangelizing for the atheist position. 

    So we have evangelical atheists, which might sound ironic but I’ve found is often the case.  The logical course for an atheist is to ignore a post like this and focus elsewhere, perhaps considering us faithful to be beyond help, yet the tug to comment and convince us is apparently too much to resist.   

    • #74
  15. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    We can’t know.

    I think the biblical case for eternal fire and brimstone for humans is inconclusive.

    I think it is very challenging to defend the justice of inflicting infinite pain for finite sin.

    I think it is very challenging to reconcile that apparent injustice with a just and merciful G-d. (It is also hard to understand what the word “merciful” means in this context.)

    If one expands the list of those destined for eternal damnation to include all those who are not “saved” through a personal knowledge of Jesus Christ — so that it includes, say, the young woman who lives and dies in an isolated village in Afghanistan without ever being exposed to Christian teaching — then I think it is probably impossible to reconcile that with any kind of justice or mercy.

    So, no. We can’t know if there is a Hell, but I very much doubt it.

    If Hell is the state of the soul, and God respects our free will above else, what would you think, @henryracette, about the possibility that our free will is never removed, but hearts tend to harden over time? This would open up the possibility, but not certainty, that souls in rebellion may yet repent, rendering Hell finite for them. It wouldn’t guarantee it, though, especially the hardened of heart.

    Catholics doctrine sounds pretty sure of the difference between Purgatory and Hell. But to non-Catholics, Purgatory may sound like a temporary Hell whose nature is corrective, raising the question of whether it’s a continuing choice to remain in rebellion that really distinguishes the two.

    • #75
  16. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):

    We can’t know.

    I think the biblical case for eternal fire and brimstone for humans is inconclusive.

    I think it is very challenging to defend the justice of inflicting infinite pain for finite sin.

    I think it is very challenging to reconcile that apparent injustice with a just and merciful G-d. (It is also hard to understand what the word “merciful” means in this context.)

    If one expands the list of those destined for eternal damnation to include all those who are not “saved” through a personal knowledge of Jesus Christ — so that it includes, say, the young woman who lives and dies in an isolated village in Afghanistan without ever being exposed to Christian teaching — then I think it is probably impossible to reconcile that with any kind of justice or mercy.

    So, no. We can’t know if there is a Hell, but I very much doubt it.

    We don’t know what God does at the moment of death for someone like that.

     

    We don’t know what G-d does at the moment of death for anyone, actually. 

    But, on the face of it, tormenting even the worst human being for a hundred million billion trillion years, and that being only the tiniest hint of a beginning of an infinite journey, for any sin committed in an infinitesimally brief life simply isn’t reconcilable with either justice or mercy. At least, not to me.

     

    • #76
  17. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    CB Toder aka Mama Toad (View Comment):
    Of course the Lord knows everything, including what my judgement will be, but that doesn’t take away my free will in deciding it.

    Agreed. I think we’re saying the same thing. God’s foreknowledge does not preclude us making free-will choices. I’ve heard a priest (Bishop Barron?) say, in light of that, we believe both in “predestiny” (God’s foreknowledge) and free-will.

    I still think you may be oversimplifying the issue.  If predestination simply means foreknowledge, nothing more, then couldn’t the statement from the Catechism quoted above:

    1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;

    Be rewritten as “God has foreknowledge that no one will go to hell,” suggesting an empty Hell?

    • #77
  18. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    Henry Racette (View Comment):
    But, on the face of it, tormenting even the worst human being for a hundred million billion trillion years, and that being only the tiniest hint of a beginning of an infinite journey, for any sin committed in an infinitesimally brief life simply isn’t reconcilable with either justice or mercy. At least, not to me.

    Conversely, I think we could also say that no amount of finite good deeds could ever earn an infinite reward.  Would you agree?

     

    • #78
  19. Arahant Member
    Arahant
    @Arahant

    Curt North (View Comment):
    So we have evangelical atheists, which might sound ironic but I’ve found is often the case.

    Atheism is a religion dependent on faith. Agnosticism is not.

    • #79
  20. Clavius Thatcher
    Clavius
    @Clavius

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Curt North (View Comment):
    So we have evangelical atheists, which might sound ironic but I’ve found is often the case.

    Atheism is a religion dependent on faith. Agnosticism is not.

    Amen!

    • #80
  21. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Curt North (View Comment):
    So we have evangelical atheists, which might sound ironic but I’ve found is often the case.

    Atheism is a religion dependent on faith. Agnosticism is not.

    It all comes down to how one defines atheism and agnosticism.

    But if someone says, “I don’t know if God exists or not,” it’s hard to see how that person could be considered a theist, a believer.  

    So, if one is agnostic, one also is an atheist.  

     

    • #81
  22. Could Be Anyone Inactive
    Could Be Anyone
    @CouldBeAnyone

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Curt North (View Comment):
    So we have evangelical atheists, which might sound ironic but I’ve found is often the case.

    Atheism is a religion dependent on faith. Agnosticism is not.

    It all comes down to how one defines atheism and agnosticism.

    But if someone says, “I don’t know if God exists or not,” it’s hard to see how that person could be considered a theist, a believer.

    So, if one is agnostic, one also is an atheist.

    Belief that God(s) exists is theism, belief that God(s) does not exist is atheism, and lack of belief to either position is agnosticism. One can of course as an agnostic lean either way but ultimately agnosticism and atheism are not the same.

    • #82
  23. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    CB Toder aka Mama Toad (View Comment):
    Of course the Lord knows everything, including what my judgement will be, but that doesn’t take away my free will in deciding it.

    Agreed. I think we’re saying the same thing. God’s foreknowledge does not preclude us making free-will choices. I’ve heard a priest (Bishop Barron?) say, in light of that, we believe both in “predestiny” (God’s foreknowledge) and free-will.

    I still think you may be oversimplifying the issue. If predestination simply means foreknowledge, nothing more, then couldn’t the statement from the Catechism quoted above:

    1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;

    Be rewritten as “God has foreknowledge that no one will go to hell,” suggesting an empty Hell?

    No. God doesn’t “predestine” anyone to go to hell, we do it to ourselves through our free choices. He just knows about it in advance. At least, that’s how I read it.

    • #83
  24. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Curt North (View Comment):
    So we have evangelical atheists, which might sound ironic but I’ve found is often the case.

    Atheism is a religion dependent on faith. Agnosticism is not.

    It all comes down to how one defines atheism and agnosticism.

    But if someone says, “I don’t know if God exists or not,” it’s hard to see how that person could be considered a theist, a believer.

    So, if one is agnostic, one also is an atheist.

    I disagree. Atheists claim to know that there is no God. Agnostics often live their lives in ways indistinguishable from atheists, but they don’t claim to rule out the possibility of God. Agnostics are agnostic, neither believers nor atheists. They have chosen not to choose either belief or unbelief. 

     

    • #84
  25. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member
    CB Toder aka Mama Toad
    @CBToderakaMamaToad

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    He just knows about it in advance.

    God does not exist “in advance” or “before” or “after.”

    We exist in time.

    He just IS.

    So pre-, post, etc. are meaningless.

    • #85
  26. HeavyWater Inactive
    HeavyWater
    @HeavyWater

    Could Be Anyone (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Curt North (View Comment):
    So we have evangelical atheists, which might sound ironic but I’ve found is often the case.

    Atheism is a religion dependent on faith. Agnosticism is not.

    It all comes down to how one defines atheism and agnosticism.

    But if someone says, “I don’t know if God exists or not,” it’s hard to see how that person could be considered a theist, a believer.

    So, if one is agnostic, one also is an atheist.

    Belief that God(s) exists is theism, belief that God(s) does not exist is atheism, lack of belief to either position is agnosticism. One can of course as an agnostic lean either way but ultimately agnosticism and atheism are not the same.

    To be an atheist does not mean one believes there is no God; it simply means one is not yet convinced that there is one.  

    So, really, every agnostic is an atheist and almost every atheist is an agnostic.

     

    • #86
  27. Django Member
    Django
    @Django

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    CB Toder aka Mama Toad (View Comment):
    Of course the Lord knows everything, including what my judgement will be, but that doesn’t take away my free will in deciding it.

    Agreed. I think we’re saying the same thing. God’s foreknowledge does not preclude us making free-will choices. I’ve heard a priest (Bishop Barron?) say, in light of that, we believe both in “predestiny” (God’s foreknowledge) and free-will.

    I still think you may be oversimplifying the issue. If predestination simply means foreknowledge, nothing more, then couldn’t the statement from the Catechism quoted above:

    1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;

    Be rewritten as “God has foreknowledge that no one will go to hell,” suggesting an empty Hell?

    No. God doesn’t “predestine” anyone to go to hell, we do it to ourselves through our free choices. He just knows about it in advance. At least, that’s how I read it.

    It may have been C. S. Lewis, or not, but someone said that since God is eternal and outside of space and time he can from His “eternal now” view points in time the way he views points in space. He sees the entirety of a man’s or a woman’s existence. He knows because He is watching, but watching someone do something is not the same as making him do it.

    That was how one author attempted to reconcile God’s seeming foreknowledge with free will. That sounded like nonsense to me when I read it the first time, and it still does. But, maybe it’s just over my head. 

     

    • #87
  28. Henry Racette Member
    Henry Racette
    @HenryRacette

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Henry Racette (View Comment):
    But, on the face of it, tormenting even the worst human being for a hundred million billion trillion years, and that being only the tiniest hint of a beginning of an infinite journey, for any sin committed in an infinitesimally brief life simply isn’t reconcilable with either justice or mercy. At least, not to me.

    Conversely, I think we could also say that no amount of finite good deeds could ever earn an infinite reward. Would you agree?

    Earn? Not in any meaningful sense, no. But a loving god might choose to bless his subjects with endless happiness. There’s nothing in that that’s incompatible with a just, loving, and merciful god.

     

    • #88
  29. Could Be Anyone Inactive
    Could Be Anyone
    @CouldBeAnyone

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Could Be Anyone (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Curt North (View Comment):
    So we have evangelical atheists, which might sound ironic but I’ve found is often the case.

    Atheism is a religion dependent on faith. Agnosticism is not.

    It all comes down to how one defines atheism and agnosticism.

    But if someone says, “I don’t know if God exists or not,” it’s hard to see how that person could be considered a theist, a believer.

    So, if one is agnostic, one also is an atheist.

    Belief that God(s) exists is theism, belief that God(s) does not exist is atheism, lack of belief to either position is agnosticism. One can of course as an agnostic lean either way but ultimately agnosticism and atheism are not the same.

    To be an atheist does not mean one believes there is no God; it simply means one is not yet convinced that there is one.

    So, really, every agnostic is an atheist and almost every atheist is an agnostic.

    Then you are arguing against the plain definitions of the words. Theism is belief in God(s). Atheism, a creates opposite meaning, is belief in no God. Agnosticism is a lack of belief either way. Asserting that God does or does not exist is a belief. Not asserting has no meaning towards belief.

    • #89
  30. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    CB Toder aka Mama Toad (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):
    He just knows about it in advance.

    God does not exist “in advance” or “before” or “after.”

    We exist in time.

    He just IS.

    So pre-, post, etc. are meaningless.

    True. He knows about it from our perspective “in advance.” 

    • #90
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