Recommended by Ricochet Members Created with Sketch. Quote of the Day: Two Kingdoms

 

“Sir, we will humblie reverence your Majestie always, namlie in public, but sen we have this occasioun to be with your Majestie in privat, and the treuthe is, yie ar brought in extream danger bathe of your lyff and croun, and with yow, the country and Kirk of Christ is lyk to wrak, for nocht telling yow the treuthe, and giffen of yow fathfull counsall, we mon (must) discharge our dewtie thairin, or els be trators bathe to Christ and yow! And thairfor Sir, as divers tymes befor, sa now again, I mon tell yow, thair is twa Kings and twa Kingdomes in Scotland. Thair is Chryst Jesus the King, and his Kingdome the Kirk, whase subject King James the Saxt is, and of whose kingdome nocht a king, nor a lord, nor a heid, bot a member! And they whome Chryst hes callit and commandit to watch over his Kirk, and govern his spirituall kingdome, hes sufficient powar of him, and authoritie sa to do, bathe togidder and severalie; the quhilk na Christian King or Prince sould control and discharge, but fortifie and assist, utherwayes nocht fathfull subjects nor members of Chryst.” — Andrew Melville

There have always been some folks who did not care what consequences might befall them, they would speak the truth as they understood it, even if it meant telling a king he was but “God’s sillie vassal.” Bless all such men.

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  1. ST Inactive
    ST

    Thank you good sir. May the Lord bless you and keep you.

    • #1
    • August 1, 2018, at 2:05 AM PDT
    • 1 like
  2. ST Inactive
    ST

    P.S. Your post is talking something about Scotland – right?

    • #2
    • August 1, 2018, at 2:06 AM PDT
    • 2 likes
  3. Arahant Member
    Arahant

    Simon Templar (View Comment):

    P.S. Your post is talking something about Scotland – right?

    Right.

    • #3
    • August 1, 2018, at 2:15 AM PDT
    • 1 like
  4. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member
    CB Toder aka Mama Toad Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Arahant: Sir, we will humblie reverence your Majestie always, namlie in public, but sen we have this occasioun to be with your Majestie in privat, and the treuthe is, yie ar brought in extream danger bathe of your lyff and croun, and with yow, the country and Kirk of Christ is lyk to wrak, for nocht telling yow the treuthe, and giffen of yow fathfull counsall, we mon (must) discharge our dewtie thairin, or els be trators bathe to Christ and yow! And thairfor Sir, as divers tymes befor, sa now again, I mon tell yow, thair is twa Kings and twa Kingdomes in Scotland. Thair is Chryst Jesus the King, and his Kingdome the Kirk, whase subject King James the Saxt is, and of whose kingdome nocht a king, nor a lord, nor a heid, bot a member! And they whome Chryst hes callit and commandit to watch over his Kirk, and govern his spirituall kingdome, hes sufficient powar of him, and authoritie sa to do, bathe togidder and severalie; the quhilk na Christian King or Prince sould control and discharge, but fortifie and assist, utherwayes nocht fathfull subjects nor members of Chryst.—Andrew Melville

    Sir, we will humbly reverence your Majesty always, namely in public, but since we have this occasion to be with your Majesty in private, and the truth is, you are brought in extreme danger both of you life and crown, and with you, the country and Church of Christ is like to wreck, for not telling you the truth, and giving of your faithful counsel, we must discharge our duty therein, or else be traitors both to Christ and you! And therefore Sir, as diverse times before, say now again, I must tell you, there are two Kings and two Kingdoms in Scotland. There is Christ Jesus the King, and his Kingdom the Church, whose subject King James the Sixth is, and of whose kingdom not a king, nor a lord, nor a head, but a member! And they whom Christ has called and commanded to watch over his Church, and govern his spiritual kingdom, has sufficient power of him, and authority so to do, both together and severally; that which no Christian King or Prince should control and discharge, but fortify and assist, otherwise neither faithful subjects nor members of Christ. 

    Mostly translated for those who don’t read Medieval Scots-English. 

    • #4
    • August 1, 2018, at 2:27 AM PDT
    • 10 likes
  5. Arahant Member
    Arahant

    A plain, Modern English translation:

    Sir, we will humbly reverence Your Majesty always, namely in public, but since we have this occasion to be with Your Majesty in private, and the truth is, you are brought in extreme danger both of your life and crown, and with you, the country and church of Christ is like to (be ruined), for not telling you the truth, and giving to you faithful counsel, we must discharge our duty therein, or else be traitors both to Christ and you! And therefore, Sir, as diverse times before, so now again, I must tell you, there are two kings and two kingdoms in Scotland. There is Christ Jesus the King, and his kingdom the church, whose subject King James the Sixth is, and in which kingdom (James VI is) not a king, nor a lord, nor a chief, but a mere member! And they whom Christ has called and commanded to watch over his Kirk, and govern his spiritual kingdom, has sufficient power of him, and authority so to do, both together and severally; the which no Christian king or prince should control and discharge, but fortify and assist, otherwise not faithful subjects nor members of Christ.

    • #5
    • August 1, 2018, at 2:27 AM PDT
    • 2 likes
  6. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member
    CB Toder aka Mama Toad Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Arahant (View Comment):

    A plain, Modern English translation:

    Sir, we will humbly reverence Your Majesty always, namely in public, but since we have this occasion to be with Your Majesty in private, and the truth is, you are brought in extreme danger both of your life and crown, and with you, the country and church of Christ is like to (be ruined), for not telling you the truth, and giving to you faithful counsel, we must discharge our duty therein, or else be traitors both to Christ and you! And therefore, Sir, as diverse times before, so now again, I must tell you, there are two kings and two kingdoms in Scotland. There is Christ Jesus the King, and his kingdom the church, whose subject King James the Sixth is, and in which kingdom (James VI is) not a king, nor a lord, nor a chief, but a mere member! And they whom Christ has called and commanded to watch over his Kirk, and govern his spiritual kingdom, has sufficient power of him, and authority so to do, both together and severally; the which no Christian king or prince should control and discharge, but fortify and assist, otherwise not faithful subjects nor members of Christ.

    I finally beat you! By mere seconds this time…

    • #6
    • August 1, 2018, at 2:28 AM PDT
    • 5 likes
  7. Arahant Member
    Arahant

    CB Toder aka Mama Toad (View Comment):
    Mostly translated for those who don’t read Medieval Scots-English. 

    Beat me to it by that much.

    • #7
    • August 1, 2018, at 2:29 AM PDT
    • 5 likes
  8. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member
    CB Toder aka Mama Toad Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Arahant (View Comment):

    CB Toder aka Mama Toad (View Comment):
    Mostly translated for those who don’t read Medieval Scots-English.

    Beat me to it by that much.

    Winning!

    • #8
    • August 1, 2018, at 2:30 AM PDT
    • 6 likes
  9. ST Inactive
    ST

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Simon Templar (View Comment):

    P.S. Your post is talking something about Scotland – right?

    Right.

    Actually thank you, I enjoyed trying to read and understand it. What is that form of English called in layman’s terms – Middle English? The timeline would seem to put it at the beginning of the Modern English era but can that be called Modern English?

     

    • #9
    • August 1, 2018, at 2:36 AM PDT
    • 1 like
  10. ST Inactive
    ST

    Wait.

    Final answer: Medieval Scots-English. 

    • #10
    • August 1, 2018, at 2:37 AM PDT
    • 4 likes
  11. Arahant Member
    Arahant

    Early Modern Scots.

    • #11
    • August 1, 2018, at 2:41 AM PDT
    • 4 likes
  12. Clavius Thatcher

    Great advice for a king and very respectfully delivered.

    Reading the original was fun.

    • #12
    • August 1, 2018, at 4:24 AM PDT
    • 8 likes
  13. Judge Mental Member

    There is only one Kirk.

    • #13
    • August 1, 2018, at 6:23 AM PDT
    • 5 likes
  14. Joshua Bissey Coolidge

    Does anyone know why them old-timey dudes use the word “reverence” as a verb? If I “reverence” someone, is that different than if I simply revere them?

    • #14
    • August 1, 2018, at 6:25 AM PDT
    • 1 like
  15. Arahant Member
    Arahant

    Judge Mental (View Comment):

    There is only one Kirk.

    You mean James Tiberius?

    • #15
    • August 1, 2018, at 7:57 AM PDT
    • 9 likes
  16. Arahant Member
    Arahant

    TheSockMonkey (View Comment):
    Does anyone know why them old-timey dudes use the word “reverence” as a verb?

    Languages change. Also, the person being quoted was highly educated, and probably liked being a sesquipedalist.

    TheSockMonkey (View Comment):
    If I “reverence” someone, is that different than if I simply revere them?

    No.

    • #16
    • August 1, 2018, at 7:59 AM PDT
    • 2 likes
  17. ST Inactive
    ST

    Arahant (View Comment):
    sesquipedalist.

    Try slipping that into the conversation sometime late at night at any Marine Officers’ Club.

    • #17
    • August 1, 2018, at 8:08 AM PDT
    • 5 likes
  18. Joshua Bissey Coolidge

    Arahant (View Comment):

    TheSockMonkey (View Comment):
    Does anyone know why them old-timey dudes use the word “reverence” as a verb?

    Languages change. Also, the person being quoted was highly educated, and probably liked being a sesquipedalist.

    TheSockMonkey (View Comment):
    If I “reverence” someone, is that different than if I simply revere them?

    No.

    That is what I suspect as well, but I wonder if it could be some tense or mood of “revere” that we don’t use anymore.

    • #18
    • August 1, 2018, at 9:43 AM PDT
    • Like
  19. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member
    CB Toder aka Mama Toad Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    TheSockMonkey (View Comment):

    That is what I suspect as well, but I wonder if it could be some tense or mood of “revere” that we don’t use anymore.

    I think revere is more a state of mind, and reverence is an actual action with the body. Whaddya think?

    Kind of like how the “curtsy” comes from “make a courtesy.”

    • #19
    • August 1, 2018, at 9:45 AM PDT
    • 4 likes
  20. Percival Thatcher
    Percival Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    CB Toder aka Mama Toad (View Comment):

    TheSockMonkey (View Comment):

    That is what I suspect as well, but I wonder if it could be some tense or mood of “revere” that we don’t use anymore.

    I think revere is more a state of mind, and reverence is an actual action with the body. Whaddya think?

    Kind of like how the “curtsy” comes from “make a courtesy.”

    Correct. As a noun, a “reverence” is just such a display. It is a very old meaning, but this is a very old quote.

    • #20
    • August 1, 2018, at 10:08 AM PDT
    • 5 likes
  21. Basil Fawlty Member
    Basil Fawlty Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Did he write this before he wrote Moby Dick?

    • #21
    • August 1, 2018, at 3:20 PM PDT
    • 2 likes
  22. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member
    CB Toder aka Mama Toad Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Basil Fawlty (View Comment):

    Did he write this before he wrote Moby Dick?

    This is Andrew Melville not Herman (as you know quite well…).

    • #22
    • August 1, 2018, at 3:22 PM PDT
    • 4 likes
  23. Arahant Member
    Arahant

    Basil Fawlty (View Comment):

    Did he write this before he wrote Moby Dick?

    Yes, he was just starting to hit his stride with the style.

    • #23
    • August 1, 2018, at 3:27 PM PDT
    • 2 likes
  24. CB Toder aka Mama Toad Member
    CB Toder aka Mama Toad Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Basil Fawlty (View Comment):

    Did he write this before he wrote Moby Dick?

    Yes, he was just starting to hit his stride with the style.

    Shouldn’t you write,

    “He waes juste stearting to hit his stryde with the steyle.” Or something.

    I think Andrew’s steyle is less oblique than Herman’s, anyway.

    • #24
    • August 1, 2018, at 3:34 PM PDT
    • 4 likes
  25. Basil Fawlty Member
    Basil Fawlty Joined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    CB Toder aka Mama Toad (View Comment):

    Basil Fawlty (View Comment):

    Did he write this before he wrote Moby Dick?

    This is Andrew Melville not Herman (as you know quite well…).

    You mean the guy with the coy mistress?

    • #25
    • August 1, 2018, at 3:39 PM PDT
    • 2 likes
  26. ST Inactive
    ST

    Arahant (View Comment):

    Basil Fawlty (View Comment):

    Did he write this before he wrote Moby Dick?

    Yes, he was just starting to hit his stride with the style.

    GMF (give me funny) 

    P.S. GMF is the hipper Ricochet version of LOL.

    • #26
    • August 1, 2018, at 3:41 PM PDT
    • 3 likes
  27. Arahant Member
    Arahant

    Basil Fawlty (View Comment):
    You mean the guy with the coy mistress?

    Yes, he lived so long that he decided to throw out the life of a cold Presbyterian theologian and live the life of a Restoration poet.

    • #27
    • August 1, 2018, at 3:56 PM PDT
    • 4 likes
  28. ST Inactive
    ST

    Damn. Ricochet is smart!

    • #28
    • August 1, 2018, at 3:58 PM PDT
    • 3 likes
  29. GFHandle Member

    Simon Templar (View Comment):
    What is that form of English called in layman’s terms

    I would say Modern English, if there is only Old English (or Anglo-Saxon, a foreign language), Middle English (understandable with a bit of effort as with Chaucer) and Modern English (mostly spelling differences.) But I guess “Early Modern English” is more precise. Shakespeare is fully modern English, though many refer to his language as “Old English,” by which they probably just mean his poetry is not new. I think Victorian Prose is “Old English” to some. 

    • #29
    • August 1, 2018, at 4:05 PM PDT
    • 3 likes
  30. GFHandle Member

    Arahant (View Comment):

    TheSockMonkey (View Comment):
    If I “reverence” someone, is that different than if I simply revere them?

    No.

    To me, “revering” something implies an actual psychological state whereas to “reverence” is merely to show due deference. Not sure why I feel that way.

    • #30
    • August 1, 2018, at 4:09 PM PDT
    • 1 like

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