Why Is Sweden So Violent All of a Sudden? It’s Just Rotten Luck.

 

On a recent post, I discussed the possible current or impending invasion of Europe, either from Russia via military strike or from Muslim countries via immigration. There were a few commenters that thought that describing high levels of immigration as an invasion was a bit of a stretch. A fair criticism, although I’m not sure I agree with it. Regardless, it reminded me of a conversation I had with a very nice Swedish lady a couple years ago.

At a medical conference in Dallas, I heard a Swedish accent in a nearby conversation. I looked at her (and her nametag), and thought she just must be Swedish. According to her nametag, she worked for Novo Nordisk, a Danish company that produces diabetes medications. I didn’t get the chance to say hello then, but that night at dinner there was a seat open next to her and I sat down. We talked about how much we both liked Sweden, where I’d lived, where she was from, and so on. She was from a nice section of Stockholm, but I mentioned a friend of mine from Gothenburg who said that immigration had created such high rates of violent crime there that he wouldn’t let his wife or daughter go out without a male escort, or three. She seemed offended. “Strange that an American would be so critical of immigration. You are all immigrants here, aren’t you?”

We had been having a lovely conversation, but suddenly she was outright hostile. This sudden shift in our conversation took me aback, and I mumbled something like, “Yeah, well, I haven’t been to Gothenburg in 25 years, but my friend says that there really was no such thing as violent crime — um, not until large numbers of Muslim immigrants moved into certain neighborhoods. I’m not criticizing immigration, I’m just acknowledging what is happening there in terms of crime.”

She was peeved and spat, “Swedes are a generous people by nature. We just want to help those who are from dangerous parts of the world. Would you refuse to help someone escape violence simply because you don’t like their religion?”

I had recovered my footing a bit. I paused, looked thoughtful, and responded, “Rotten luck.”

She didn’t get it, and asked, “What’s rotten luck?”

I said, “Well, these poor people are from a dangerous part of the world. Very violent place. Then you bring those poor people to Sweden, a very safe part of the world. And wouldn’t you know it, just as soon as these poor people show up, Sweden becomes a violent, dangerous part of the world. Just like where they came from. What rotten luck.”

She just stared at me coldly.

“I mean, honestly, who knew? What a weird coincidence. You know, now that I think of it, maybe this is because of Islam!”

She continued to stare at me coldly. Much more coldly.

I continued, “I don’t mean that Islam is causing it; I mean that it’s because of insufficient amounts of Islam in Sweden. You know, Islam means peace. So if you have too much violence all of a sudden in Sweden, perhaps you could fix that by importing more Muslims. You’d have peace in your streets again. Who knows, maybe if you famously stubborn Swedes could learn to adopt other cultures, maybe the Muslims could teach you a thing or two about peace. I believe there’s hope for advancement of all cultures — even Swedes!”

That crossed a line. Her face turned red. She got her plate, stood up, and walked to a table on the other side of the huge conference room. I think the only thing that saved my life was her innate Swedish tendency toward peace that I had just questioned.

Now there’s a fine line between being a witty conversationalist and being a jerk. In retrospect, I probably pole-vaulted over that line into “jerk” territory. Like some other things, that line becomes blurry after a few glasses of wine.

But what a weird response. I acknowledged the irrefutable fact that Sweden has been a ridiculously safe and peaceful country for a long time. Then a bunch of immigrants from notoriously violent countries move in, and guess what: now Sweden is violent too. Perhaps it’s not the dirt in those countries that’s violent, perhaps it’s the people who live there who are violent. Perhaps culture matters. And perhaps religion plays a role in culture.

And if she disagrees with any of that, perhaps she could explain to me why I’m wrong. Then I could answer her, as best I could. And she could answer me. We could have a wonderful time discussing a fascinating topic. It’s called conversation; it’s fun!

But no — two very nice people are suddenly at each other’s throats.

The problem that we had in our conversation was probably religion. Stereotyping someone because of where they’re from is largely ok. In Ohio, we laughed at West Virginian jokes (I presume the West Virginians laughed at Ohioan jokes). In Sweden, we laughed at jokes about Norwegians. It’s all in good fun.

But stereotyping someone because of their religion is different. Especially if that religion is not Christianity or Judaism. Islam is a favored group of the modern left, for reasons that I don’t fully understand and you criticize it at your peril. Perhaps she just can’t conceive of criticizing Islam, and she hates anyone who does; I’m not sure.

Perhaps Islam is no more violent than Christianity — if she believes that, she should explain her reasoning. She made no effort to do so.

But she had an incredibly strong reaction to a fairly obvious observation about a truth that she chooses not to acknowledge. Since she couldn’t really argue that my observation was wrong, all she could do was talk about America’s history of immigration and so on, in an effort to lash out and change the subject to something on which she wasn’t obviously wrong. Her tactics were aggressive, but it made her seem weak, somehow.

In an invasion, the strength and determination of the invading force is important; so is the strength and determination of the defending force. But it doesn’t really matter what either one of those is in absolute terms — it’s the difference between the two that really matters.

I think Europe is being invaded, but I guess I’m really not sure. But I am fairly sure that Europeans really don’t care.

And that’s too bad.

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  1. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    How about this. “We are not nation of immigrants. We are a nation of former immigrants that became American. The American part is the important bit.”

    • #91
  2. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    How about this. “We are not nation of immigrants. We are a nation of former immigrants that became American. The American part is the important bit.”

    E pluribus unum.  It was still on all our coins, last I checked.

    • #92
  3. Kate Braestrup Member
    Kate Braestrup
    @GrannyDude

    Dr. Bastiat: And if she disagrees with any of that, perhaps she could explain to me why I’m wrong. Then I could answer her, as best I could. And she could answer me. We could have a wonderful time discussing a fascinating topic. It’s called conversation; it’s fun!

    This is the part that drives me nuts—why not just have the conversation? Is it just me, or was there a time when people actually had arguments? Not fights (though that could happen) but long and generally mutually enjoyable debates about the affairs of the day?

    • #93
  4. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Kate Braestrup (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat: And if she disagrees with any of that, perhaps she could explain to me why I’m wrong. Then I could answer her, as best I could. And she could answer me. We could have a wonderful time discussing a fascinating topic. It’s called conversation; it’s fun!

    This is the part that drives me nuts—why not just have the conversation? Is it just me, or was there a time when people actually had arguments? Not fights (though that could happen) but long and generally mutually enjoyable debates about the affairs of the day?

    Jefferson almost always had fights. Washington had arguments. Fights and arguments have been going on since forever so one theory is that social media makes everything worse. If you separate two dogs via a chain link fence, all they do is bark at each other and make a nuisance of themselves. If you tear the fence down, eventually they quit barking and play fight in a manner accustomed to animals. The internet is like our chain link fence and tweeting is like barking. 

    • #94
  5. Kate Braestrup Member
    Kate Braestrup
    @GrannyDude

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Kate Braestrup (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat: And if she disagrees with any of that, perhaps she could explain to me why I’m wrong. Then I could answer her, as best I could. And she could answer me. We could have a wonderful time discussing a fascinating topic. It’s called conversation; it’s fun!

    This is the part that drives me nuts—why not just have the conversation? Is it just me, or was there a time when people actually had arguments? Not fights (though that could happen) but long and generally mutually enjoyable debates about the affairs of the day?

    Jefferson almost always had fights. Washington had arguments. Fights and arguments have been going on since forever so one theory is that social media makes everything worse. If you separate two dogs via a chain link fence, all they do is bark at each other and make a nuisance of themselves. If you tear the fence down, eventually they quit barking and play fight in a manner accustomed to animals. The internet is like our chain link fence and tweeting is like barking.

    Interesting! And does this habituate us to not being able to talk to each other when we are actually in the same room? 

    • #95
  6. OkieSailor Member
    OkieSailor
    @OkieSailor

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    Is there some process by which subscribers to Ricochet can be ex-communicated for expressing heretical views?

    Gosh, I hope not ;>)

    • #96
  7. TedRudolph Inactive
    TedRudolph
    @TedRudolph

    Kate Braestrup (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat: And if she disagrees with any of that, perhaps she could explain to me why I’m wrong. Then I could answer her, as best I could. And she could answer me. We could have a wonderful time discussing a fascinating topic. It’s called conversation; it’s fun!

    This is the part that drives me nuts—why not just have the conversation? Is it just me, or was there a time when people actually had arguments? Not fights (though that could happen) but long and generally mutually enjoyable debates about the affairs of the day?

    Saul Alinsky. 

    One of his primary tenants was to never allow an opponent to tell their side of the argument. If you don’t completely control the messaging you never know who may be convinced by your opponent. His preferred techniques – depending upon the opponent – were to portray an opponent as either evil or as weak.

    • #97
  8. OkieSailor Member
    OkieSailor
    @OkieSailor

    Kate Braestrup (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat: And if she disagrees with any of that, perhaps she could explain to me why I’m wrong. Then I could answer her, as best I could. And she could answer me. We could have a wonderful time discussing a fascinating topic. It’s called conversation; it’s fun!

    This is the part that drives me nuts—why not just have the conversation? Is it just me, or was there a time when people actually had arguments? Not fights (though that could happen) but long and generally mutually enjoyable debates about the affairs of the day?

    Yes but to engage in a substantive discussion one must not only believe in his position but also have the self awareness to understand he could be wrong. 
    And a sufficient amount of education having been devoted to constructing logical and reasonable argumentation as opposed to shouting inanely repetitive vituperation helps too. This used to be done in HS, then was confined to college but is rapidly dissapearing.

    • #98
  9. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Five charts. Zero links.

    Do you have any data to refute?

    Look it up yourself.

    G-O-O-G-L-E

     

     

     

    So much for saving him the trouble of going to the charts himself . . .

     

    • #99
  10. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Is Europe being invaded?

    If so, do Europeans understand this? And do they care?

    What can be done? Should anything be done?

    1. Yes
    2. The rank and file understand, the leaders don’t, or don’t care.
    3. Send the invaders back to the hellholes they came from.
    • #100
  11. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    OkieSailor (View Comment):

    Fred Cole (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Five charts. Zero links.

    Here you go:

    Image result for sausage links

    Have a ball ;>)

     

     

    Those links had better work when he clicks on them . . .

    • #101
  12. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):
    Jefferson almost always had fights. Washington had arguments.

    And duels.  Don’t forget duels.

    • #102
  13. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Stad (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):
    Jefferson almost always had fights. Washington had arguments.

    And duels. Don’t forget duels.

    I can’t think of any duels that Washington fought. Perhaps you are thinking of some of his subordinates? 

    • #103
  14. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):
    Jefferson almost always had fights. Washington had arguments.

    And duels. Don’t forget duels.

    I can’t think of any duels that Washington fought. Perhaps you are thinking of some of his subordinates?

    Hamilton-Burr.

    • #104
  15. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Stad (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):
    Jefferson almost always had fights. Washington had arguments.

    And duels. Don’t forget duels.

    I can’t think of any duels that Washington fought. Perhaps you are thinking of some of his subordinates?

    Hamilton-Burr.

    Yes, and there were others earlier, during the war. But Washington himself? 

    • #105
  16. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):
    Jefferson almost always had fights. Washington had arguments.

    And duels. Don’t forget duels.

    I can’t think of any duels that Washington fought. Perhaps you are thinking of some of his subordinates?

    Hamilton-Burr.

    Yes, and there were others earlier, during the war. But Washington himself?

    As an aside, want to bring back civility in public life?

    Bring back dueling.

    • #106
  17. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):
    Jefferson almost always had fights. Washington had arguments.

    And duels. Don’t forget duels.

    I can’t think of any duels that Washington fought. Perhaps you are thinking of some of his subordinates?

    Hamilton-Burr.

    Yes, and there were others earlier, during the war. But Washington himself?

    Oh no.  I was referring to duels in general, much the same way Washington et al. were referred to as arguing or fighting, etc.  I took those comments to mean “in general”.

    • #107
  18. Dr. Bastiat Member
    Dr. Bastiat
    @drbastiat

    Kozak (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):
    Jefferson almost always had fights. Washington had arguments.

    And duels. Don’t forget duels.

    I can’t think of any duels that Washington fought. Perhaps you are thinking of some of his subordinates?

    Hamilton-Burr.

    Yes, and there were others earlier, during the war. But Washington himself?

    As an aside, want to bring back civility in public life?

    Bring back dueling.

    Or at least fist fights in schools, for Pete’s sake.  

    • #108
  19. Arizona Patriot Member
    Arizona Patriot
    @ArizonaPatriot

    Kozak (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    The Reticulator (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):
    Jefferson almost always had fights. Washington had arguments.

    And duels. Don’t forget duels.

    I can’t think of any duels that Washington fought. Perhaps you are thinking of some of his subordinates?

    Hamilton-Burr.

    Yes, and there were others earlier, during the war. But Washington himself?

    As an aside, want to bring back civility in public life?

    Bring back dueling.

    I’m in, as long as you’re talking about banjos.  :)

    • #109
  20. Suspira Member
    Suspira
    @Suspira

    OkieSailor (View Comment):

    HeavyWater (View Comment):
    Is there some process by which subscribers to Ricochet can be ex-communicated for expressing heretical views?

    Gosh, I hope not ;>)

    Me, too. Everyone should have one heretical view.

    • #110
  21. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Ontheleftcoast (View Comment):

    Sash (View Comment):

    There is a difference between immigration and invasion…

    Or not:

    War and migration have always been closely related. The relationship was recorded as early as 1300 BC, when we are informed the Israelites followed Moses out of Egypt to embark upon the enterprise that ultimately led them to the Promised Land of Canaan. As you will no doubt recall, they promptly conquered it. And since that time, for over 3,315 years, the link between war and the large-scale movement of people from one place to another has never been broken. Yet despite the way these mass movements of peoples have had a profound effect on human history, there has never been a systematic effort to explore the ways in which the two great phenomena, war and migration, interact. This essay is a preliminary attempt to rectify rectify the situation.

    […]

    Aside from relatively equal situations in Africa and North America when tribal societies fought each other, militarized migrations were chiefly a matter of less developed mobile societies attacking more developed, settled civilizations. That likely explains why, in the more technologically advanced parts of the world, migration-wars came to an end in the fifteenth century. As the history of the American West illustrates, once tribal warriors were able to lay their hands on modern weapons—particularly firearms—they quickly learned to use them just as well as their opponents. But what they could not do was produce the weapons and required ammunition for themselves. The development of firearms was a decisive shift in the balance of power towards more technologically advanced societies, particularly those of the West. How long this advantage will last is an open question, but there are indications that it is already on the wane.

    […]

    Aside from relatively equal situations in Africa and North America when tribal societies fought each other, militarized migrations were chiefly a matter of less developed mobile societies attacking more developed, settled civilizations. That likely explains why, in the more technologically advanced parts of the world, migration-wars came to an end in the fifteenth century. As the history of the American West illustrates, once tribal warriors were able to lay their hands on modern weapons—particularly firearms—they quickly learned to use them just as well as their opponents. But what they could not do was produce the weapons and required ammunition for themselves. The development of firearms was a decisive shift in the balance of power towards more technologically advanced societies, particularly those of the West. How long this advantage will last is an open question, but there are indications that it is already on the wane.

    War and Migration by Martin van Creveld, in Pournelle, Jerry. There Will Be War Volume X (Kindle Locations 1820-2086). Castalia House. Kindle Edition.

    It’s on Kindle Unlimited.

    All I’m saying is immigration is a legal activity, invasion is illegal and often an act of war . . .

    • #111
  22. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):
    This is Ricochet after all and not a pub.

    Sorry, but the two are indistinguishable . . .

    • #112
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