Female Genital Mutilation: A Horrific Practice

 

Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) is a horrific procedure done on very young girls in the Middle East and Africa. Unfortunately, we know that the procedure has also found its way to the US; I wrote about a case from April 2017 that is still in process.

In May 2018 a debate was held with three highly credible people engaged in this issue: Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who has formed a foundation to deal with this issue; M. Zuhdi Jasser, a well-known medical doctor, founder of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy and moderate Muslim practitioner; and Alan Dershowitz, civil rights attorney, who worked for a period with a group in Michigan that wanted to find a way to normalize a version of female genital mutilation. It was a fascinating debate (more of a discussion) that shines a light on why all of us should be concerned with this issue in this country. (It’s not available on video at this time.)

This post highlights some of the points from the discussion that I thought were noteworthy.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali described the various types of FGM. The tragedy of this procedure is that it is done to small girls who don’t understand that their genitals will be mutilated, causing them misery for the rest of their lives. Due to the interest in receiving the procedure for their daughters, doctors in Europe are consenting to do the procedures in hospitals. According to the World Health Organization, 200 million women alive today in 30 countries have been cut. Young girls are told that they are impure, even filthy, if they don’t have the procedure. The psychological trauma cannot be measured. Although suggestions for modifying and simplifying the procedure have been offered, Hirsi Ali promotes “zero tolerance”; she was forced to have the procedure as a child. Hirsi Ali explained that she was no longer a Muslim; she said she could no longer perform the “cognitive aerobatics” that it would require.

When Alan Dershowitz spoke, he explained that he was consulted by a Muslim organization in Michigan about how the procedure could be continued lawfully; he suggested a “pinprick,” similar in his estimation to a man who has been circumcised but not in the formal Jewish tradition; a grown male who chooses to marry a Jewish woman must complete the brit milah procedure by having himself pricked and a little blood is drawn. (Dr. Jasser assured him the procedures were not comparable.) Dershowitz has since been released as the group’s attorney; he is also reconsidering the morality of maintaining the procedure, given its intent and the effect on young girls and women.

Finally, Zuhdi Jasser spoke to this issue. He was in full agreement with Hirsi Ali and explained that the procedure was a practice of misogyny. That no matter how a version of FGM is performed, it is a form of hate and abuse. He and Hirsi Ali said there was a Hadith (writing after the Koran) that seemed to refer to this practice, but it was one that needed to be eliminated. Jasser is a well-known proponent of Islam reform, which he believes will need to include the equality of men and women; FGM has no place, therefore, in an enlightened Islam.

So why is this important to not only young girls everywhere, but particularly in the United States? As the Muslim population grows, young girls will be subjected to this abuse and mutilation by their own mothers. They will have no say in these decisions. And those who have already gone through the procedure will likely continue it with their own daughters, even though it is more a cultural practice than a religious one. After all, who wants their daughters to live lives of impurity and filth?

By the way, we don’t hear about these practices in the US for a number of reasons: doctors are conspiring with parents to conduct FGMs illegally; some families take their daughters abroad to receive these services; and Muslims are not willing to report these illegal actions. Meanwhile, the suffering of these little girls continues.

One of Hirsi Ali’s last comments was that we have to tell Muslim women that this practice is not only illegal, but they are not welcome in this country if they wish to practice it. She firmly stated that these women need to be told, “It’s not going to happen on our soil.”

What are your thoughts?

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  1. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Stad (View Comment):

    PHenry (View Comment):
    But I don’t know that you can blanket declare it is not religious. It is not universally accepted as a religious obligation, but some clearly consider it so.

    I can easily declare FGM a horrific practice that must be stopped at all costs, whether it is religiously based or not. IMHO, it’s a crime against humanity . . .

    The point @stad I was trying to make to @phenry was just because a person “feels” it’s part of his or her religion doesn’t make it so. And sacrificing virgins was acceptable at one time, too.

    • #31
  2. PHenry Inactive
    PHenry
    @PHenry

    Stad (View Comment):
    I can easily declare FGM a horrific practice that must be stopped at all costs, whether it is religiously based or not. IMHO, it’s a crime against humanity . . .

    If you are talking about the full FGM procedure, I agree. I would prefer not to get in to the gritty details, but some forms are not much different than male circumcision.  Think labiaplasty. 

    As to my original point, if you are willing to declare a less radical form of FGM unworthy of protection on religious grounds, you are risking seeing circumcision fall to a similar fate.  

     I reiterate, I am not pro FGM.  Not in the least.  But I see the slippery slope of deciding which childhood genital mutilations are inhumane and which are a blessing from G-D. 

     

    • #32
  3. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    PHenry (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):
    I can easily declare FGM a horrific practice that must be stopped at all costs, whether it is religiously based or not. IMHO, it’s a crime against humanity . . .

    If you are talking about the full FGM procedure, I agree. I would prefer not to get in to the gritty details, but some forms are not much different than male circumcision. Think labiaplasty.

    As to my original point, if you are willing to declare a less radical form of FGM unworthy of protection on religious grounds, you are risking seeing circumcision fall to a similar fate.

    I reiterate, I am not pro FGM. Not in the least. But I see the slippery slope of deciding which childhood genital mutilations are inhumane and which are a blessing from G-D.

     

    No worries, @phenry. I do understand where you stand, and we’re probably not far apart at all. But do we not take a stand because we are afraid of what might happen to what is actually a different procedure with different reasons? We’re actually seeing some countries besides the US taking steps against FGM. I suspect that Jewish male circumcision will be singled out for banning for entirely different reasons: anti-Semitism.

    • #33
  4. PHenry Inactive
    PHenry
    @PHenry

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):
    But do we not take a stand because we are afraid of what might happen to what is actually a different procedure with different reasons? We’re actually seeing some countries besides the US taking steps against FGM. I suspect that Jewish male circumcision will be singled out for banning for entirely different reasons: anti-Semitism.

    Remember Niemoller- First they came for the Muslim practice of Female circumcision, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Muslim… 

    While I appreciate and do not dispute that anti-Semitism is a factor, there are lots of people who are not Jewish who are against male circumcision for entirely different reasons.  Many do not see any practical difference between cutting a female and a male – they object to both equally. 

    I am trying very hard not to infringe on the sacred feelings the Jewish people have for the procedure.  I am just trying to make it clear they do not have a monopoly on religious rites, and their religious rites are not any more universally approved of than any other religion’s rites.

    If you value your religious rites, value the protection of everyone’s, especially those of other religions.  Because once you participate in banning theirs, yours may be next on the list. 

    When it comes to things like human sacrifice and full FGM,   there is enough harm to justify secular prohibition of the acts.  But get in to greyer areas and I think we are best to leave others to their own beliefs. For that reason, I would oppose banning male circumcision.  But I can certainly see the justification of the argument that it is over the line to perform on infants.  As I said, a grey area.  

    • #34
  5. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Hypatia (View Comment):
    At least with FGM,it is being done to make these girls more feminine,  more attractive as women, the gender nature assigned them

    Uh, actually it can cause permanent disfigurement and loss of sexual sensation.

    • #35
  6. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Kozak (View Comment):
    Uh, actually it can cause permanent disfigurement and loss of sexual sensation.

    Thanks for the diagram, @kozak. Would you like to share other thoughts from a medical perspective?

    • #36
  7. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    I find Ayan Hirsi Ali’s advocacy for not permitting voluntary FGM necessary but odd. If a woman permits violence against herself she will permit it against others. As much as I admire individualism and libertarianism, the individual’s ability to corrupt the society around her overrides her autonomy. Without an individual wanting to be free, she cannot make the society around her free. I know this sounds like I’m flirting with Rousseau’s general will and that bothers me but I can’t find any other way around it.

    I’d be OK with voluntary FGM in adults.  Not kids.

    • #37
  8. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    MarciN (View Comment):
    Why do Muslim women continue to wear the stifling full niqab? Over time, they adapted to being different from the rest of the world, and it probably offered some benefits such as not having to contend with an aging body.

    Getting beaten for being a whore if it’s not worn is a big reason.

    My wife and daughter visited me in Saudi when I worked there. They wore the “black sack” the Abaya, but not the head or face covering.  My daughter was made extremely uncomfortable by the stares of both the men and women who basically stared at her like a slab of meat.  You just don’t see women going about in western style clothing.  Visitors are harassed, locals would literally be beaten.

    • #38
  9. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):
    Uh, actually it can cause permanent disfigurement and loss of sexual sensation.

    Thanks for the diagram, @kozak. Would you like to share other thoughts from a medical perspective?

    This article addresses both the short and long term medical issues with FGM.

     

    Health risks of female genital mutilation (FGM)

     

    • #39
  10. Stad Coolidge
    Stad
    @Stad

    PHenry (View Comment):
    Remember Niemoller- First they came for the Muslim practice of Female circumcision, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Muslim… 

     I’m sure you don’t mean to use this famous quote as a justification, but will you not agree this practice must be stopped?

    • #40
  11. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    Kozak (View Comment):

    MarciN (View Comment):
    Why do Muslim women continue to wear the stifling full niqab? Over time, they adapted to being different from the rest of the world, and it probably offered some benefits such as not having to contend with an aging body.

    Getting beaten for being a whore if it’s not worn is a big reason.

    My wife and daughter visited me in Saudi when I worked there. They wore the “black sack” the Abaya, but not the head or face covering. My daughter was made extremely uncomfortable by the stares of both the men and women who basically stared at her like a slab of meat. You just don’t see women going about in western style clothing. Visitors are harassed, locals would literally be beaten.

    What’s in my mind is the Miss World Pageant that took place in Nigeria in 2002 when Muslim women shunned and threw rocks at the contestants. The women did this! It’s hard to understand, but I think they rationalize having to wear the niqab as a way of accepting the unacceptable.

    • #41
  12. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):
    And sacrificing virgins was acceptable at one time, too.

    You would also sacrifice infants at harvest time and prisoners of war to various your war god of choice. At least it was that way in Ireland.

    • #42
  13. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    MarciN (View Comment):
    What’s in my mind is the Miss World Pageant that took place in Nigeria in 2002 when Muslim women shunned and threw rocks at the contestants. The women did this! It’s hard to understand, but I think they rationalize having to wear the niqab as a way of accepting the unacceptable.

    Ayan Hirsi Ali talks about how women facilitate violence against women. In honor killings, the violence is often arranged by a women or the women tell the men about the victims’ ‘trangressions.’ Leyla Hussein in an interview on Ricochet talked about how her father forbid her mother from taking her to get the procedure done but the Mom took her anyways. 

    There is some really weird gender dynamic going on here. I don’t know what it is but it should be better understood.

    • #43
  14. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Kozak (View Comment):
    Kozak  

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    I find Ayan Hirsi Ali’s advocacy for not permitting voluntary FGM necessary but odd. If a woman permits violence against herself she will permit it against others. As much as I admire individualism and libertarianism, the individual’s ability to corrupt the society around her overrides her autonomy. Without an individual wanting to be free, she cannot make the society around her free. I know this sounds like I’m flirting with Rousseau’s general will and that bothers me but I can’t find any other way around it.

    I’d be OK with voluntary FGM in adults. Not kids.

    @Kozak I’d be OK with it too if the harm just stopped at one person. But once as my previous post illustrates, women having the practice leads to them perpetuating the practice. I think that’s Ayan’s point. 

    • #44
  15. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    PHenry (View Comment):
    But I don’t know that you can blanket declare it is not religious. It is not universally accepted as a religious obligation, but some clearly consider it so.

    I can easily declare FGM a horrific practice that must be stopped at all costs, whether it is religiously based or not. IMHO, it’s a crime against humanity . . .

    The point @stad I was trying to make to @phenry was just because a person “feels” it’s part of his or her religion doesn’t make it so.

    It does make it so, imho, but deciding that it isn’t makes it not.  

     

    • #45
  16. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):
    Kozak

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    I find Ayan Hirsi Ali’s advocacy for not permitting voluntary FGM necessary but odd. If a woman permits violence against herself she will permit it against others. As much as I admire individualism and libertarianism, the individual’s ability to corrupt the society around her overrides her autonomy. Without an individual wanting to be free, she cannot make the society around her free. I know this sounds like I’m flirting with Rousseau’s general will and that bothers me but I can’t find any other way around it.

    I’d be OK with voluntary FGM in adults. Not kids.

    @Kozak I’d be OK with it too if the harm just stopped at one person. But once as my previous post illustrates, women having the practice leads to them perpetuating the practice. I think that’s Ayan’s point.

    Oh there’s no doubt the women buy in.  They enforce the rules as much as the men, after all they raise the next generation.  But I do believe as long as they limit it to adults, so be it.  Oh, and one more thing.  Anyone who wants to do this I don’t want in my country. Plenty of places around the world they can practice this barbarity.

    • #46
  17. They call me PJ Boy or they ca… Member
    They call me PJ Boy or they ca…
    @

    Kozak (View Comment):
    Getting beaten for being a whore if it’s not worn is a big reason.

    and/ or acid in the face.

    • #47
  18. Henry Castaigne Member
    Henry Castaigne
    @HenryCastaigne

    Kozak (View Comment):
    Oh, and one more thing. Anyone who wants to do this I don’t want in my country. Plenty of places around the world they can practice this barbarity.

    Well that puts you in the Ayan Hirsi Ali category.

    • #48
  19. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):
    Oh, and one more thing. Anyone who wants to do this I don’t want in my country. Plenty of places around the world they can practice this barbarity.

    Well that puts you in the Ayan Hirsi Ali category.

    I’m Ok with that. Brave woman.

    • #49
  20. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Henry Castaigne (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):
    Oh, and one more thing. Anyone who wants to do this I don’t want in my country. Plenty of places around the world they can practice this barbarity.

    Well that puts you in the Ayan Hirsi Ali category.

    I’m Ok with that. Brave woman.

    In some states, if legislators get their way, grown woman will not be able to have the procedure, either.

    • #50
  21. PHenry Inactive
    PHenry
    @PHenry

    Stad (View Comment):

    PHenry (View Comment):
    Remember Niemoller- First they came for the Muslim practice of Female circumcision, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Muslim…

    I’m sure you don’t mean to use this famous quote as a justification, but will you not agree this practice must be stopped?

    I do.  Now, how would you react if circumcision of boys was included in the ban? 

    Not being Jewish nor Muslim, I see no real justification for either practice (and I’m not equating the full FGM with circumcision). 

    That said, being aware that to the Jewish faith, circumcision is a sacred rite, I am against laws preventing the practice.  Which leaves me in a quandary- If it is wrong to ban one religion’s sacred rite, is it OK to ban another’s?  How far does that freedom of faith go?  How far are we willing to defend it? 

    My reason for the quote is that if you don’t feel it necessary to defend it in religions other than your own, you are likely to someday find yourself caught up in the bans. 

    There may not be any way to make FGM justifiable.  Certainly, I oppose any act like those @Kozak has diagrammed above.  But is there a less harmful form, closer to circumcision that should be allowed? 

    It’s not something I would want done to my child, male nor female.  I don’t see the reason for it, as I’m not of a religion that requires it.  But for reasons totally outside any approval/disapproval of child genital modifications I would oppose infringing on the religious freedoms of any religion, including those not my own. So that leaves the question.  Where do we draw the line?  How much secular control over religious practices we disagree with are we to allow?   And once that secular control is aimed at our religion, what remedy will we have left?  

    • #51
  22. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    PHenry (View Comment):

    Stad (View Comment):

    PHenry (View Comment):
    Remember Niemoller- First they came for the Muslim practice of Female circumcision, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Muslim…

    I’m sure you don’t mean to use this famous quote as a justification, but will you not agree this practice must be stopped?

    I do. Now, how would you react if circumcision of boys was included in the ban?

    Not being Jewish nor Muslim, I see no real justification for either practice (and I’m not equating the full FGM with circumcision).

    That said, being aware that to the Jewish faith, circumcision is a sacred rite, I am against laws preventing the practice. Which leaves me in a quandary- If it is wrong to ban one religion’s sacred rite, is it OK to ban another’s? How far does that freedom of faith go? How far are we willing to defend it?

    My reason for the quote is that if you don’t feel it necessary to defend it in religions other than your own, you are likely to someday find yourself caught up in the bans.

    There may not be any way to make FGM justifiable. Certainly, I oppose any act like those @Kozak has diagrammed above. But is there a less harmful form, closer to circumcision that should be allowed?

    It’s not something I would want done to my child, male nor female. I don’t see the reason for it, as I’m not of a religion that requires it. But for reasons totally outside any approval/disapproval of child genital modifications I would oppose infringing on the religious freedoms of any religion, including those not my own. So that leaves the question. Where do we draw the line? How much secular control over religious practices we disagree with are we to allow? And once that secular control is aimed at our religion, what remedy will we have left?

    @phenry, I’ve made these comments a couple of times and you’ve chosen not to address them. But I’ll try again. FGM is not part of the Islam religion. You won’t find it in the Koran. To say that some people believe in it, though, is disingenuous; some Muslims believe in honor killings but it is not part of Islam. So equating FGM with male circumcision, which is in the Torah, is not acceptable to me. Second, people who do FGM are not interested in doing anything less than they are doing, i.e., they will not be willing to do a pinprick if they are doing a more damaging version. They think their way is the correct way, particularly if they are trying to discourage women from having intercourse, and there is no central body of Islam who will suggest a universally acceptable version of FGM; that kind of body does not exist anyway. Finally, you haven’t addressed the fact that doing circumcision to an 8-day old boy is not equivalent to doing FGM to a 10-year old girl; try to imagine that they must force the girl down, hold her legs apart and do the work without anesthetic. Until you address these concerns, I can’t address your points.

    • #52
  23. PHenry Inactive
    PHenry
    @PHenry

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):
    . FGM is not part of the Islam religion. You won’t find it in the Koran. To say that some people believe in it, though, is disingenuous; some Muslims believe in honor killings but it is not part of Islam. So equating FGM with male circumcision, which is in the Torah, is not acceptable to me. Second, people who do FGM are not interested in doing anything less than they are doing, i.e., they will not be willing to do a pinprick if they are doing a more damaging version. They think their way is the correct way, particularly if they are trying to discourage women from having intercourse, and there is no central body of Islam who will suggest a universally acceptable version of FGM; that kind of body does not exist anyway. Finally, you haven’t addressed the fact that doing circumcision to an 8-day old boy is not equivalent to doing FGM to a 10-year old girl; try to imagine that they must force the girl down, hold her legs apart and do the work without anesthetic. Until you address these concerns, I can’t address your points.

    Fair enough, let me try to address them. 

    I don’t believe that anyone outside of a faith has any business deciding what is and is not part of that faith.  I understand you feel it’s illegitimate and not part of the Koran, but imagine if I, a non Jewish person, were to start telling you what is and is not part of the Jewish faith?  Are there not different factions in the Jewish faith that disagree on interpretations and rituals?  (There certainly are in the Christian faith!)

    My point is simply that just because you, a non Muslim, do not interpret the Koran to demand it, does not make it so.  In fact, just because some Muslims do not interpret the Koran to demand it, does not mean others don’t, or can’t.  Clearly, some believe it to be part of their religious duty.  You saying you can’t find it in the Koran does not change that, any more than Christian arguments against old testament laws and rituals nullify them for Jewish people.  It’s just simply not your place to tell them what they do and can believe! 

    Next, I completely agree with your disgust at the practice, its clear phobia of female sexuality, and that it will be very hard to get extremists to agree to something less drastic.  Imagine if the Jewish practice of circumcision were to be banned except for a ‘pin prick’ procedure.  It is hard to tell people who believe their lord has commanded they do something they can’t follow his command…

    Finally, I do not think that the fact that an 8 day old boy can’t communicate the pain, fear, and emotional effect of circumcision means he hasn’t felt it.   It hurts, in either case.

    • #53
  24. They call me PJ Boy or they ca… Member
    They call me PJ Boy or they ca…
    @

    They call me PJ Boy or they ca… (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):
    Since I doubt that Islam recognizes raping one’s wife,

    The wives of a muslim cannot be raped by her husband.

    Yep, as I thought.

    Rape ‘impossible’ in marriage, says Muslim cleric

    • #54
  25. JudithannCampbell Member
    JudithannCampbell
    @

    They call me PJ Boy or they ca… (View Comment):

    They call me PJ Boy or they ca… (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):
    Since I doubt that Islam recognizes raping one’s wife,

    The wives of a muslim cannot be raped by her husband.

    Yep, as I thought.

    Rape ‘impossible’ in marriage, says Muslim cleric

    That this Muslim cleric is in charge of sharia courts in Great Britain is unreal.

    • #55
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