Weaponizing the Bible Against Religious Conservatives

 

Haters of religious conservatives flip between two attacks on us:

  1. Of course, you’re a hateful bigot. You follow the Bible and the Old Testament God is the evilest villain in all of fiction. You’re evil because your sky god is evil.
  2. Your hateful bigotry is both evil and a betrayal of the Biblical values you pretend to hold dear. Stop blaming God, who is good, for the evil that is you.

Attack number two is back in vogue.

The timing is impeccable because this week, Jews read of Korach, the archetype of the hater of religious conservatives. Korach leads an elite delegation to weaponize Biblical and egalitarian ideas to attack Moses, Aaron, and God. “You have taken too much,” he says to Moses and Aaron, “for the entire congregation is holy and why do you raise yourself above God’s congregation?”

God opens the earth and it swallows Korach and his followers.

It would be fun to weaponize this lesson against egalitarians but let’s not. The story has a twist.

There’s a round two, many generations later.

Aaron’s descendants abuse their power. God chooses Korach’s descendant, Samuel, to rebuke him. Samuel is not happy with this task, which is a first glimpse at the difference between Samuel and his ancestor.

Jewish tradition credits Samuel with authoring the books of Ruth, Judges, and most of Samuel 1. The heroes of these stories are usually outsiders, the weak, and downtrodden. They say things like, “why did you choose me, my family is the poorest, and I am the smallest in my father’s house?” These writings include the David and Goliath story.

Korach does not lose to Aaron because his ideas are wrong, but rather because his approach is. Samuel, in contrast, humbly realizes that he must help constructively reconcile partial truths and those who hold them. He supports systems of law and those upholding and benefiting from them, while also tweaking the systems and helping those poorly served by them.

Ethics of Our Fathers focuses on Korach’s approach to conflict and contrasts him with Hillel.

“Any dispute that is for the sake of Heaven is destined to endure; one that is not for the sake of Heaven is not destined to endure. Which is a dispute that is for the sake of Heaven? The disputes between Hillel and Shamai. Which is a dispute that is not for the sake of Heaven? The dispute of Korach and all his company.”

The Talmud explains Hillel’s approach to conflict:

The House of Hillel and the House of Shammai argued. …A heavenly voice spoke: “These and those are the words of the living God, and the law is according to the House of Hillel.” …why was the law established to follow the opinion of Hillel? It is because the students of Hillel were kind and gracious. They taught their own ideas as well as the ideas from the students of Shammai. Furthermore, they even taught Shammai’s opinions first.”

Jewish law bends towards the opinion of those who engage in respectful discourse.

Many on all sides today engage in a frightening level of trolling and name-calling.

I can’t speak to the Christian tradition, though I do know the Reverend King moved worlds by speaking of love towards political adversaries.

Those who wish to follow the Jewish tradition should start by not comparing their opponents to Pharaoh or to Nazis. They should not mock their opponents or assert that the Bible offers clear conclusions on all of these questions. In the Korach story, there is one character who issues a clever, biting rebuke. It wasn’t one of the good guys.

I’ve become a conflict junkie. I’m viscerally obsessed with what those evil people are saying about the people, organizations, and ideas that I love and value. It’s killing me. I doubt I’m alone in this.

If we’re truly committed to Biblical values, we should respect and love each other. We should recognize that we and our opponents each focus on partial truths and that we’re all motivated by both the higher and lower angels of our nature. The only way through this is stopping the hatred of ourselves and our opponents.

Published in Religion & Philosophy
This post was promoted to the Main Feed by a Ricochet Editor at the recommendation of Ricochet members. Like this post? Want to comment? Join Ricochet’s community of conservatives and be part of the conversation. Join Ricochet for Free.

There are 40 comments.

Become a member to join the conversation. Or sign in if you're already a member.
  1. JoelB Member
    JoelB
    @JoelB

    I never realized that Samuel was a descendant of Korah. Is this in the Bible or only in rabbinical teachings? Could you quote me chapter and verse? I am truly curious.

    • #1
  2. Gil Reich Member
    Gil Reich
    @GilReich

    JoelB (View Comment):

    I never realized that Samuel was a descendant of Korah. Is this in the Bible or only in rabbinical teachings? Could you quote me chapter and verse? I am truly curious.

    It’s in Chronicles 1, Chapter 6

    https://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt25a06.htm

    Most people don’t seem to know it.

    The whole story of Korach is strange in this way. In the Korach portion we seem to be told unambiguously that everything and every one connected to Korach is gone. And then in Numbers 26:11 we’re stunned with the news “And Korach’s sons didn’t die” and there are a few chapters in Psalms in their name.

    I assume Biblical critics have a field day with this. Clearly the Bible presents different perspectives at different places, but for me that’s part of its brilliance.

    • #2
  3. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    My Torah study partner told me about Korach and Samuel this week! In a time when respect and humility are sadly lacking, Korach has a lot to teach us. Thanks, @gilreich!

    • #3
  4. EJHill Podcaster
    EJHill
    @EJHill

    It is kuzushi, the art of breaking balance. It forms the basics of jujutsu. In political terms it is #4 of the Alinsky rules, “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.”

    The problem is that you cannot turn Christianity against its adherents if you don’t understand its concepts to begin with. One of the first concepts is that man is broken and all fall short of the glory of God. When liberals tell conservative Christians they’re not living up to their ideals it’s not new. It’s something we acknowledge.

    Ultimately, their biggest failure is to understand that the relationship between Christians and their God (Both the Father and the Son) is personal. Salvation, and Christ’s teachings on achieving that, is personal. It’s not something that can be outsourced to the government in the voting booth.

    Furthermore, you cannot demand Christians live up to their ideals one minute and demand they abandon their faith in the next. You can’t push “Live your faith!” at the same time you’re yelling “Bake the cake, you bigot!”

    • #4
  5. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    EJHill (View Comment):

    It is kuzushi, the art of breaking balance. It forms the basics of jujutsu. In political terms it is #4 of the Alinsky rules, “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.”

    The problem is that you cannot turn Christianity against its adherents if you don’t understand its concepts to begin with. 

    Ultimately, their biggest failure is to understand that the relationship between Christians and their God (Both the Father and the Son) is personal. Salvation, and Christ’s teachings on achieving that, is personal. It’s not something that can be outsourced to the government in the voting booth.

    Furthermore, you cannot demand Christians live up to their ideals one minute and demand they abandon their faith in the next. You can’t push “Live your faith!” at the same time you’re yelling “Bake the cake, you bigot!

    Precisely. 

    • #5
  6. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    EJHill (View Comment):

    It is kuzushi, the art of breaking balance. It forms the basics of jujutsu. In political terms it is #4 of the Alinsky rules, “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.”

    The problem is that you cannot turn Christianity against its adherents if you don’t understand its concepts to begin with. One of the first concepts is that man is broken and all fall short of the glory of God. When liberals tell conservative Christians they’re not living up to their ideals it’s not new. It’s something we acknowledge.

    Ultimately, their biggest failure is to understand that the relationship between Christians and their God (Both the Father and the Son) is personal. Salvation, and Christ’s teachings on achieving that, is personal. It’s not something that can be outsourced to the government in the voting booth.

    Furthermore, you cannot demand Christians live up to their ideals one minute and demand they abandon their faith in the next. You can’t push “Live your faith!” at the same time you’re yelling “Bake the cake, you bigot!”

    It’s almost as if their motivation isn’t to help Christians. 

    • #6
  7. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    And let’s just see how the left tries to use this latest from Pope Francis (reminder if needed- I am not Catholic but my wife is, so I am not speaking as a Catholic): http://www.catholicnewsworld.com/2018/06/pope-francis-you-are-icon-of-god-family.html 

    The Pope who is the great hero of the common man when attacking the excesses of consumer capitalism or  the mighty defender of poor, helpless Gaia when she’s being raped by oil companies will suddenly become the evil homophobic misogynist all over again.

    It’s  tiresome.  

    • #7
  8. Gil Reich Member
    Gil Reich
    @GilReich

    EJHill (View Comment):

    Ultimately, their biggest failure is to understand that the relationship between Christians and their God (Both the Father and the Son) is personal. Salvation, and Christ’s teachings on achieving that, is personal. It’s not something that can be outsourced to the government in the voting booth.

    Interesting. I think most Jews see this differently. We’re often more interested in society obligations, and in getting the job done. Ideally we’d like to engineer a society where there was no hunger or suffering. In practice that can turn totalitarian and evil. But the goal is to minimize suffering, not just as individuals but as society.

    Furthermore, you cannot demand Christians live up to their ideals one minute and demand they abandon their faith in the next. You can’t push “Live your faith!” at the same time you’re yelling “Bake the cake, you bigot!”

    Agreed.

    • #8
  9. Hartmann von Aue Member
    Hartmann von Aue
    @HartmannvonAue

    Gil Reich (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    Ultimately, their biggest failure is to understand that the relationship between Christians and their God (Both the Father and the Son) is personal. Salvation, and Christ’s teachings on achieving that, is personal. It’s not something that can be outsourced to the government in the voting booth.

    Interesting. I think most Jews see this differently. We’re often more interested in society obligations, and in getting the job done. Ideally we’d like to engineer a society where there was no hunger or suffering. In practice that can turn totalitarian and evil. But the goal is to minimize suffering, not just as individuals but as society.

    Furthermore, you cannot demand Christians live up to their ideals one minute and demand they abandon their faith in the next. You can’t push “Live your faith!” at the same time you’re yelling “Bake the cake, you bigot!”

    Agreed.

    Well, we see both the individual responsibility and social obligations. God spoke to Israel through the prophets but also spoke direct to individuals through those same prophets sometimes with personal message, sometimes with messages that were for the weal or warning of the nation. What we want as Christians is a society in which individuals live up to the Sermon on the Mount but we cannot coerce that.  

    • #9
  10. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.
    An evil soul producing holy witness
    Is like a villain with a smiling cheek,
    A goodly apple rotten at the heart.
    O, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!

    — William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice.

    • #10
  11. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    Gil Reich (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    Ultimately, their biggest failure is to understand that the relationship between Christians and their God (Both the Father and the Son) is personal. Salvation, and Christ’s teachings on achieving that, is personal. It’s not something that can be outsourced to the government in the voting booth.

    Interesting. I think most Jews see this differently. We’re often more interested in society obligations, and in getting the job done. Ideally we’d like to engineer a society where there was no hunger or suffering. In practice that can turn totalitarian and evil. But the goal is to minimize suffering, not just as individuals but as society.

    Furthermore, you cannot demand Christians live up to their ideals one minute and demand they abandon their faith in the next. You can’t push “Live your faith!” at the same time you’re yelling “Bake the cake, you bigot!”

    Agreed.

    Do you think that’s why so many Jews end up on the Left? The desire to perfect the world?

    • #11
  12. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Gil Reich (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    Ultimately, their biggest failure is to understand that the relationship between Christians and their God (Both the Father and the Son) is personal. Salvation, and Christ’s teachings on achieving that, is personal. It’s not something that can be outsourced to the government in the voting booth.

    Interesting. I think most Jews see this differently. We’re often more interested in society obligations, and in getting the job done. Ideally we’d like to engineer a society where there was no hunger or suffering. In practice that can turn totalitarian and evil. But the goal is to minimize suffering, not just as individuals but as society.

    Furthermore, you cannot demand Christians live up to their ideals one minute and demand they abandon their faith in the next. You can’t push “Live your faith!” at the same time you’re yelling “Bake the cake, you bigot!”

    Agreed.

    Do you think that’s why so many Jews end up on the Left? The desire to perfect the world?

    I think it’s empathy and identification with minorities and a related distrust of a Christian majority who – let’s be honest – doesn’t have a very good track record in regard to live-and-let-live. 

    • #12
  13. EDISONPARKS Member
    EDISONPARKS
    @user_54742

    I’m just grateful so many on the MSM/Left (…but I repeat myself) have finally found Jesus!

    • #13
  14. Terry Mott Member
    Terry Mott
    @TerryMott

    TBA (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Gil Reich (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    Ultimately, their biggest failure is to understand that the relationship between Christians and their God (Both the Father and the Son) is personal. Salvation, and Christ’s teachings on achieving that, is personal. It’s not something that can be outsourced to the government in the voting booth.

    Interesting. I think most Jews see this differently. We’re often more interested in society obligations, and in getting the job done. Ideally we’d like to engineer a society where there was no hunger or suffering. In practice that can turn totalitarian and evil. But the goal is to minimize suffering, not just as individuals but as society.

    Furthermore, you cannot demand Christians live up to their ideals one minute and demand they abandon their faith in the next. You can’t push “Live your faith!” at the same time you’re yelling “Bake the cake, you bigot!”

    Agreed.

    Do you think that’s why so many Jews end up on the Left? The desire to perfect the world?

    I think it’s empathy and identification with minorities and a related distrust of a Christian majority who – let’s be honest – doesn’t have a very good track record in regard to live-and-let-live.

    What I can’t understand is how a distrust of the majority leads to the desire to empower the same majority through statist policies.  If you want live-and-let-live, you should be skeptical of centralized control, not four-square in favor of it.  I’m missing something, here.

    • #14
  15. TheSockMonkey Inactive
    TheSockMonkey
    @TheSockMonkey

    Gil Reich:

    Haters of religious conservatives flip between two attacks on us:

    1. Of course, you’re a hateful bigot. You follow the Bible and the Old Testament God is the evilest villain in all of fiction. You’re evil because your sky god is evil.
    2. Your hateful bigotry is both evil and a betrayal of the Biblical values you pretend to hold dear. Stop blaming God, who is good, for the evil that is you.

    Attack number two is back in vogue.

    That’s closely entwined with their twin accusations of “You Christo-fascists! You’re establishing a Christian theocracy,” vs “How dare you not establish a Christian theocracy by caring for the poor, and welcoming all of the immigrants, like the Bible says you should?”

    • #15
  16. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Terry Mott (View Comment):
    What I can’t understand is how a distrust of the majority leads to the desire to empower the same majority through statist policies. If you want live-and-let-live, you should be skeptical of centralized control, not four-square in favor of it. I’m missing something, here.

    My guess is that they expect to be in charge at that point. It’s not about live-and-let-live, it’s about their deciding what we all need. After all, they know best. Sigh

    • #16
  17. Terry Mott Member
    Terry Mott
    @TerryMott

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Terry Mott (View Comment):
    What I can’t understand is how a distrust of the majority leads to the desire to empower the same majority through statist policies. If you want live-and-let-live, you should be skeptical of centralized control, not four-square in favor of it. I’m missing something, here.

    My guess is that they expect to be in charge at that point. It’s not about live-and-let-live, it’s about their deciding what we all need. After all, they know best. Sigh

    I’ve considered that.  However, as noted, Christians outnumber Jews by a large factor, and we still have a nominally representative government.  Just a few minutes’ reflection would reveal that empowering the government that is likely to be controlled by a distrusted majority, at least part of the time, empowers the distrusted majority.

    See, I can sort-of understand college students being statists.  They’re young, emotional, and largely ignorant of how reality works.  But Jews, writ large, tend to be intelligent, reflective people capable of both understanding history and projecting ideas and actions into the future.

    Hence, the oft-repeated excuse for widespread Jewish leftism — that they distrust Christians — has always seemed to me an insufficient explanation.

    • #17
  18. Susan Quinn Contributor
    Susan Quinn
    @SusanQuinn

    Terry Mott (View Comment):

    But Jews, writ large, tend to be intelligent, reflective people capable of both understanding history and projecting ideas and actions into the future.

    Hence, the oft-repeated excuse for widespread Jewish leftism that they distrust Christians has always seemed to me an insufficient explanation.

    That’s because you’re looking at it rationally, you silly man. It has nothing to do with intelligence.

    • #18
  19. Terry Mott Member
    Terry Mott
    @TerryMott

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Terry Mott (View Comment):

    But Jews, writ large, tend to be intelligent, reflective people capable of both understanding history and projecting ideas and actions into the future.

    Hence, the oft-repeated excuse for widespread Jewish leftism that they distrust Christians has always seemed to me an insufficient explanation.

    That’s because you’re looking at it rationally, you silly man. It has nothing to do with intelligence.

    Perhaps.  Maybe I’m giving Jews too much credit.

    Of course, I expect there to be a similar proportion of emotionally-oriented Jews as there are among gentiles — we’re all just people, after all.  I’d just expect that the more rational Jews (and there are many), being in an historically oppressed group, would skew more toward the libertarian perspective than the statist one.  However, the opposite seems to be the case.

    Perhaps the fact that American Jews tend to be congregated in a few locations overcomes this.  In other words, I could see where in New York City, academia, entertainment, etc., Jews may feel more like a (local) majority, so that the expected reaction isn’t applicable.  But I don’t recall that ever being part of the explanation for widespread Jewish leftism.

    • #19
  20. Bishop Wash Member
    Bishop Wash
    @BishopWash

    TheSockMonkey (View Comment):

    Gil Reich:

    Haters of religious conservatives flip between two attacks on us:

    1. Of course, you’re a hateful bigot. You follow the Bible and the Old Testament God is the evilest villain in all of fiction. You’re evil because your sky god is evil.
    2. Your hateful bigotry is both evil and a betrayal of the Biblical values you pretend to hold dear. Stop blaming God, who is good, for the evil that is you.

    Attack number two is back in vogue.

    That’s closely entwined with their twin accusations of “You Christo-fascists! You’re establishing a Christian theocracy,” vs “How dare you not establish a Christian theocracy by caring for the poor, and welcoming all of the immigrants, like the Bible says you should?”

    Is that similar to Jesus didn’t exist, but if he did, he definitely was a long-haired, Birkenstock-wearing, socialist-supporting hippie?

    • #20
  21. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    TheSockMonkey (View Comment):
    That’s closely entwined with their twin accusations of “You Christo-fascists! You’re establishing a Christian theocracy,”

    Stop killing babies and leave my church alone. Hey, even better! Leave all the churches alone.

    TheSockMonkey (View Comment):
    “How dare you not establish a Christian theocracy by caring for the poor, and welcoming all of the immigrants, like the Bible says you should?”

    If the government would get out of the way, the churches would do it.

    • #21
  22. Terry Mott Member
    Terry Mott
    @TerryMott

    Percival (View Comment):

    TheSockMonkey (View Comment):
    That’s closely entwined with their twin accusations of “You Christo-fascists! You’re establishing a Christian theocracy,”

    Stop killing babies and leave my church alone. Hey, even better! Leave all the churches alone.

    TheSockMonkey (View Comment):
    “How dare you not establish a Christian theocracy by caring for the poor, and welcoming all of the immigrants, like the Bible says you should?”

    If the government would get out of the way, the churches would do it.

    For them, government is the church.

    • #22
  23. TheSockMonkey Inactive
    TheSockMonkey
    @TheSockMonkey

    Terry Mott (View Comment):
    Perhaps. Maybe I’m giving Jews too much credit.

    Goodness knows, they’d never give you any!

    (jk) (Wait, did I just use () to explain an anti-Semitic joke? Does that make it really anti-Semitic?) (Doh!)

    • #23
  24. Gil Reich Member
    Gil Reich
    @GilReich

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

     

    Do you think that’s why so many Jews end up on the Left? The desire to perfect the world?

    Yes, absolutely. And a desire to help and protect the poor and the marginalized through whatever means is most thorough and efficient.

    I agree with their goals, which are definitely core to Judaism. I just disagree with many of their methods and conclusions.

    • #24
  25. Gil Reich Member
    Gil Reich
    @GilReich

    TBA (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Gil Reich (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    Ultimately, their biggest failure is to understand that the relationship between Christians and their God (Both the Father and the Son) is personal. Salvation, and Christ’s teachings on achieving that, is personal. It’s not something that can be outsourced to the government in the voting booth.

    Interesting. I think most Jews see this differently. We’re often more interested in society obligations, and in getting the job done. Ideally we’d like to engineer a society where there was no hunger or suffering. In practice that can turn totalitarian and evil. But the goal is to minimize suffering, not just as individuals but as society.

    Furthermore, you cannot demand Christians live up to their ideals one minute and demand they abandon their faith in the next. You can’t push “Live your faith!” at the same time you’re yelling “Bake the cake, you bigot!”

    Agreed.

    Do you think that’s why so many Jews end up on the Left? The desire to perfect the world?

    I think it’s empathy and identification with minorities and a related distrust of a Christian majority who – let’s be honest – doesn’t have a very good track record in regard to live-and-let-live.

    Largely agree, and more generally, Jews identify with the persecuted outsider, and not with the majority.

    But a quick comment on Christian track record:

    Ann Coulter says a Jewish friend once set her up on a date. Coulter said he’d have to be religious. The date wound up being an atheist Muslim.

    Like the joke about the Jew who wanted to join a restricted country club. He made up a whole new identity and started filling out the form.

    Name: Jonathan Barksdale III

    Occupation: Attorney

    Religion: Goy

    In short, Jews don’t always differentiate carefully between other groups. Add to this that Jews often don’t differentiate between people born into a religion and people who follow that religion. Jonah Goldberg makes a strong case that Jews (and history in general) have often blamed Christians for things that cannot be reasonably blamed on Christians.

    • #25
  26. Gil Reich Member
    Gil Reich
    @GilReich

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Terry Mott (View Comment):
    What I can’t understand is how a distrust of the majority leads to the desire to empower the same majority through statist policies. If you want live-and-let-live, you should be skeptical of centralized control, not four-square in favor of it. I’m missing something, here.

    My guess is that they expect to be in charge at that point. It’s not about live-and-let-live, it’s about their deciding what we all need. After all, they know best. Sigh

    Good question, and I think Susan’s answer gets to a big part of it.

    Jews are generally not anarchists. We don’t want to live in a state of nature. Most of us would get eaten alive. We want a strong government protecting us from all forms of evil, human and natural. We have a much better chance at surviving and in pursuing our values in a civilized law-based society where people defend themselves with words and laws than in a society where people defend themselves (or attack others) using guns or fists.

    After Stalin and Hitler you’d think Jews would be a little more afraid of governments. And that fear exists, I guess, but mostly in an unhinged “Trump is Hitler and Pence is the Handmaid’s Tale” way and not in the more basic ways that scare conservatives like weaponizing the IRS and coercing Little Sisters of the Poor.

    • #26
  27. Gil Reich Member
    Gil Reich
    @GilReich

    Terry Mott (View Comment):

    Susan Quinn (View Comment):

    Terry Mott (View Comment):

    But Jews, writ large, tend to be intelligent, reflective people capable of both understanding history and projecting ideas and actions into the future.

    Hence, the oft-repeated excuse for widespread Jewish leftism that they distrust Christians has always seemed to me an insufficient explanation.

    That’s because you’re looking at it rationally, you silly man. It has nothing to do with intelligence.

    Perhaps. Maybe I’m giving Jews too much credit.

    Of course, I expect there to be a similar proportion of emotionally-oriented Jews as there are among gentiles — we’re all just people, after all. I’d just expect that the more rational Jews (and there are many), being in an historically oppressed group, would skew more toward the libertarian perspective than the statist one. However, the opposite seems to be the case.

    Perhaps the fact that American Jews tend to be congregated in a few locations overcomes this. In other words, I could see where in New York City, academia, entertainment, etc., Jews may feel more like a (local) majority, so that the expected reaction isn’t applicable. But I don’t recall that ever being part of the explanation for widespread Jewish leftism.

    I also don’t recall this being part of the explanation, but I think you’re right that it should be.

    Jews congregating in big cities is both a cause and effect of Jews’ preference of majority government over individual rights & responsibilities.

    Bringing this all together a bit, let’s go back to @EJHill‘s comment about Christianity’s obligations being more personal and can’t be outsourced. Judaism is a communal religion. With a personal component, sure, but it’s mostly about the community. We want a big, strong, community that takes care of everybody. And we live in big cities surrounded by people that largely share our views and values (even if not our religion). It all makes sense. Except for the unfortunate part that it eliminates individual liberty and leads to absolute disasters.

    I’m a Jewish liberal in that I really want the community to take care of everybody, even if that means I have less than I’d have in a freer society. I’m a conservative because I believe that path, especially if run by liberals, often ends in disaster.

    • #27
  28. TBA Coolidge
    TBA
    @RobtGilsdorf

    Gil Reich (View Comment):

    TBA (View Comment):

    Western Chauvinist (View Comment):

    Gil Reich (View Comment):

    EJHill (View Comment):

    Ultimately, their biggest failure is to understand that the relationship between Christians and their God (Both the Father and the Son) is personal. Salvation, and Christ’s teachings on achieving that, is personal. It’s not something that can be outsourced to the government in the voting booth.

    Interesting. I think most Jews see this differently. We’re often more interested in society obligations, and in getting the job done. Ideally we’d like to engineer a society where there was no hunger or suffering. In practice that can turn totalitarian and evil. But the goal is to minimize suffering, not just as individuals but as society.

    Furthermore, you cannot demand Christians live up to their ideals one minute and demand they abandon their faith in the next. You can’t push “Live your faith!” at the same time you’re yelling “Bake the cake, you bigot!”

    Agreed.

    Do you think that’s why so many Jews end up on the Left? The desire to perfect the world?

    I think it’s empathy and identification with minorities and a related distrust of a Christian majority who – let’s be honest – doesn’t have a very good track record in regard to live-and-let-live.

    Largely agree, and more generally, Jews identify with the persecuted outsider, and not with the majority.

    But a quick comment on Christian track record:

    Ann Coulter says a Jewish friend once set her up on a date. Coulter said he’d have to be religious. The date wound up being an atheist Muslim.

    Like the joke about the Jew who wanted to join a restricted country club. He made up a whole new identity and started filling out the form.

    Name: Jonathan Barksdale III

    Occupation: Attorney

    Religion: Goy

    In short, Jews don’t always differentiate carefully between other groups. Add to this that Jews often don’t differentiate between people born into a religion and people who follow that religion. Jonah Goldberg makes a strong case that Jews (and history in general) have often blamed Christians for things that cannot be reasonably blamed on Christians.

    True enough. Just because a nation is X majority doesn’t mean that X majority is necessarily driving. 

    • #28
  29. Gil Reich Member
    Gil Reich
    @GilReich

    A few follow-up thoughts:

    1. God complains about the Jews’ request to be ruled by a powerful king

    Those bothered by Jews’ desire for big government aren’t alone.

    In Samuel 1 chapter 8, the Jews ask for a king.

    God says they are thus rejecting God. Through Samuel He tells the people that a king will take their sons, daughters, and property to fulfill his desires. And one day you will pray to Me to save you from your king, but I will not listen to you on that day.

    The people say, yeah, but we can no longer bear the insecurity and vulnerability of being kingless, so we want a king, like everybody else has.

    2. Jews & Christians on anxiety & this-world suffering

    A common American cultural trope on Jews is that we suffer from debilitating anxiety. We wrote most of those characters. They ring true.

    Jews often feel that God dumped the world on our usually inadequate shoulders and said “stop the suffering.”

    The central Christian imagery attacks this problem head on. It establishes that this-world suffering is inevitable, ennobling, cleansing, and temporary. A small price to pay for eternal love and salvation. Christians will go to the ends of the earth to help people, but from a healthier emotional perspective of God has things under control, and He wants me, His humble servant, to personally engage in this do-able task. Christians, generally speaking, are not afraid of suffering. Jews are generally terrified of it.

    And Christian theology implies that yes, you should feed the hungry, but if you really want to stop somebody’s suffering, you should go further, focusing on the eternal, not the temporal.

    Jews want to build systems that save themselves and others from torturous this-world suffering and anxiety. We want to free ourselves and others from physical, psychological, and financial insecurity. Sadly this noble desire often backfires. What evangelism is to Christians, systemically eliminating insecurity is to Jews.

    3. Jews’ view of Christianity

    Most Jews think of the Christian break from Judaism as centering on the ideas that love trumps law, and that the age of nationalism is behind us. That we must all care for each other without borders or differences. So conservative Christians appear more like today’s Pharisees.

    To leftist Jews, this often seems like hypocrisy. They truly believe conservative Christians are betraying the essence of Christianity.

    As a proud descendant of the Pharisees, I won’t enter that theological debate. Other than to say how strange it seems that I have so much more respect and affinity for today’s American conservative Christians than I have for leftist Jews.

    I’ll stop now. Thanks for listening.

    • #29
  30. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    These are very helpful insights, Gil. Thank you. Perhaps we can refine this, though:

    Gil Reich (View Comment):
    Most Jews think of the Christian break from Judaism as centering on the ideas that love trumps law, and that the age of nationalism is behind us. That we must all care for each other without borders or differences. So conservative Christians appear more like today’s Pharisees.

    Christians (speaking as a Catholic) break from Judaism on the “ritual” laws, not the moral laws. Do Jews understand that distinction in Christian theology? Do Jews believe Christians believe that the age of nationalism is behind us because of Christ, or are they projecting their own post-nationalism onto us? That’s a pretty astonishing assertion to make given that the American nation is so bound up with (Protestant flavored) Christianity at its founding. Also because Judaism is a national identity (one holy Nation), not only a religious one. It sounds like lefty Jews’ religion is really post-modernism. 

    I love the Jewish ethic of caring for others, but do Jews not see that conservative Christians are much more hands-on, spending time and money caring for others, than progressive Christians? What progressive Christians and Jews advocate is having government take care of people. And we know how that works out.

    I like Bishop Barron’s definition of love: willing the good of the other as other. I think the modern definition of love is something like, “give people whatever they want.” It’s permissiveness, not love. Big difference.

    • #30
Become a member to join the conversation. Or sign in if you're already a member.