The Fiercely Independent Irish and Their Dependence on the EU

 

Our vacation in Ireland has been great so far. This afternoon, we did a hiking tour of a Knights Templar church and its cemetery, which was built in 1210 near Cork. Our tour guide was great. His explanation was that the Vatican did not want Ireland to descend into Protestantism the way the English had, so they sent the Knights Templar up to introduce Catholicism to the pagans in Ireland.

Our tour guide was enthusiastic, informative, and was a walking encyclopedia of Irish history. He had a strong Irish accent and a stronger hatred of the English, which is not entirely unusual in these parts. He said that it would be impossible for the Irish to ever cooperate with the English, because of the long history of conflict between them. I pointed out that the US became a country only after it defeated England in a brutal war, and that England is now our closest ally. That led him into a discussion of his views on the modern political scene, including Brexit. I found his perspective fascinating.

Remember that this guy is 50 years old, extremely intelligent, and has given these matters a lot of thought. So I found these statements to be jarring. He made all of these statements within a two-minute monologue:

  • The reason the Irish ran the English off their lands 100 years ago is that Irishmen don’t like being told what to do. The Irish are fiercely independent.
  • The English are fools to leave the EU – “We’ll see how they like being all alone on the world stage!” I pointed out that this would not be the first time that England was an independent country – he just shrugged his shoulders and continued his speech.
  • He is furious that when the Irish government sets their budget for the following year, that they cannot vote on their new budget until it is approved by the EU in Brussels. “We should be able to choose our own budget! To Hell with the politicians in Brussels!”
  • The Irish would be fools to leave the EU.

I would have loved to discuss this with him, but I didn’t know how. I didn’t understand his thinking well enough to debate it.

Can anyone explain this to me? I’m not being snarky here — I really do want to understand how he can hold all those views at the same time. I’m not accusing him of stupidity or ignorance (quite the contrary) — I’m openly admitting that I don’t understand. Can anyone help me out?

Just for fun, I’ll attach some pictures of the Knights Templar church…

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  1. PHCheese Inactive
    PHCheese
    @PHCheese

    What the heck are you doing on Ricochet. Go enjoy your trip. I loved my month in Ireland 30 years ago.

    • #1
  2. JudithannCampbell Member
    JudithannCampbell
    @

    My husband comes from Scotland originally; he is an American citizen and has lived in America for almost 20 years. He wants Scotland to independent of everyone: of England, of the EU, of everyone: most people in Scotland believe differently, which is a big part of the reason why he left.

    I asked him about your questions. This is what he said: as for your tour guide’s comments about the English, my husband says they may be just for effect, or they may not be, but it is very possible he just trying to entertain the tourists. Husband says that both the Irish and the Scottish are lacking in self confidence: they don’t really believe that they can succeed as countries on their own, which is why they fall easily into the E.U. As for the tour guide’s complaints about the E.U., that, my husband says, is just an example of the Irish/Scottish tendency to moan and complain: it doesn’t mean anything. They will go along with the E.U., and complain about it all the way: means nothing.

    My husband is totally against socialism and the E.U. experiment. Which is why he is in America. He is, he says, a believer in bi lateralism in all things, which is why he loves Trump.

    • #2
  3. Doctor Robert Member
    Doctor Robert
    @DoctorRobert

    Dr. Bastiat:

    Our vacation in Ireland has been great so far. This afternoon we did a hiking tour of a Knights Templar church and its cemetery, which was built in 1210 near Cork. Our tour guide was great. His explanation was that the Vatican did not want Ireland to descend into Protestantism the way the English had, so they sent the Knights Templar up to introduce Catholicism to the pagans in Ireland….Remember that this guy is 50 years old, extremely intelligent, and has given these matters a lot of thought. So I found these statements to be jarring.

    As do I.

    Henry 8th lived 1491-1547

    Martin Luther lived 1483-1546

    In 1210, did the Templars foresee their effects on the Church?

    The guy may in fact be 50 years old, but I would stop there.

    • #3
  4. Mike-K Member
    Mike-K
    @

    My trip to Ireland was in 1977, a very different time in Ireland.

    An Irish friend told me that the Irish don’t like Americans coming over to find their “roots.” He said they all know “The cream left.” Interesting POV.

    He also told his father, a harbor pilot in Cork, that he wanted to go to medical school. His father knocked him down and called him “a bloody snob.”

    My father told me to “get this idea of college out of your head.” I got zero help.

    I did kiss the Blarney Stone. I’m not sure that is as popular now.

    Going to Mass was interesting. The church was filled with women while the men waited outside. The collection box had a sign “No copper !”

    • #4
  5. Mike-K Member
    Mike-K
    @

    Also, my Irish friend was distressed when he learned that his last name, “Walsh” was Norman, not Irish.

    • #5
  6. Mate De Inactive
    Mate De
    @MateDe
    • The reason the Irish ran the English off their lands 100 years ago is that Irishmen don’t like being told what to do. The Irish are fiercely independent.

    • The English are fools to leave the EU – “We’ll see how they like being all alone on the world stage!” I pointed out that this would not be the first time that England was an independent country – he just shrugged his shoulders and continued his speech.

    • He is furious that when the Irish government sets their budget for the following year, that they cannot vote on their new budget until it is approved by the EU in Brussels. “We should be able to choose our own budget! To Hell with the politicians in Brussels!”

    • The Irish would be fools to leave the EU

    Gotta love Irish logic. I completely agree with @judithanncampbell‘s husband, regarding both Irish and Scottish post colonial mentality. Neither country has been on their own for 700 years or so (although Scotland longer), so they actually aren’t “fiercely independent” however they are rebellious but have been smashed down so many times that now, their rebellion comes in the form of complaining over a pint.

    • #6
  7. Dr. Bastiat Member
    Dr. Bastiat
    @drbastiat

    Mike-K (View Comment):
    I did kiss the Blarney Stone. I’m not sure that is as popular now.

    Oh, it’s still popular.  We waited 90 minutes so my wife could do it.  I didn’t – I don’t understand things like that.  But I loved Blarney Castle.  Incredible.

    Here is my 48 year old contortionist wife kissing the Blarney Stone:

    • #7
  8. Whistle Pig Member
    Whistle Pig
    @

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Mike-K (View Comment):
    I did kiss the Blarney Stone. I’m not sure that is as popular now.

    Oh, it’s still popular. We waited 90 minutes so my wife could do it. I didn’t – I don’t understand things like that. But I loved Blarney Castle. Incredible.

    Here is my 48 year old contortionist wife kissing the Blarney Stone:

    The stone looks wet, is that from all the folks kissing it?

    • #8
  9. GLDIII Reagan
    GLDIII
    @GLDIII

    Whistle Pig (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Mike-K (View Comment):
    I did kiss the Blarney Stone. I’m not sure that is as popular now.

    Oh, it’s still popular. We waited 90 minutes so my wife could do it. I didn’t – I don’t understand things like that. But I loved Blarney Castle. Incredible.

    Here is my 48 year old contortionist wife kissing the Blarney Stone:

    The stone looks wet, is that from all the folks kissing it?

    My wife visited that stone two years ago with our Troop’s Scout contingent on their way to a Jamboree in the Scottish highlands, and the local Irish guide they were touring with mention that it’s not unheard of the locals doing some late night micturating on the stone for their American cousins. 

    He was joking, I think…

    • #9
  10. JudithannCampbell Member
    JudithannCampbell
    @

    GLDIII (View Comment):

    Whistle Pig (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Mike-K (View Comment):
    I did kiss the Blarney Stone. I’m not sure that is as popular now.

    Oh, it’s still popular. We waited 90 minutes so my wife could do it. I didn’t – I don’t understand things like that. But I loved Blarney Castle. Incredible.

    Here is my 48 year old contortionist wife kissing the Blarney Stone:

    The stone looks wet, is that from all the folks kissing it?

    My wife visited that stone two years ago with our Troop’s Scout contingent on their way to a Jamboree in the Scottish highlands, and the local Irish guide they were touring with mention that it’s not unheard of the locals doing some late night micturating on the stone for their American cousins.

    He was joking, I think…

    According to my husband, the tour guide wasn’t joking. It is totally true. 

    • #10
  11. Front Seat Cat Member
    Front Seat Cat
    @FrontSeatCat

    Even graffiti at an old holy site? Is it time to send the Knights Templar back to re-teach the new Irish pagans – help me here @paddysiochain – the schizophrenic thinking – double talk seems to be the norm nowadays – you just proved it.  Thanks for the pictures and interesting story!

    • #11
  12. Gromrus Member
    Gromrus
    @Gromrus

    Your tour guide’s muddled thinking on the present is no surprise. He has muddled thinking about history.  The Knights Templar ended in the early 1300s, 200 years before Luther’s posting of the 95 theses on the Wittenberg door and even before the births of the earliest proto-reformists Wycliffe, Huss, etc. The KT were certainly not sent to prevent the Reformation in Ireland. 

    • #12
  13. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    The contradictions are pretty stark, aren’t they? The Irish have essentially traded English for German overlords. And the noose around their neck will only get tighter over time. 

    The English voted to leave because of the noose and its tightening. But with Theresa May and her band of Tory remainers in charge, it is questionable whether Britain every will. 

    At least Ireland isn’t still under the spell of that American devil Eamon de Valera who made sure Ireland remained in ruins. 

    • #13
  14. Western Chauvinist Member
    Western Chauvinist
    @WesternChauvinist

    The only cure for leftism is a good, hard mugging by reality. Your tour guide hasn’t been mugged hard enough yet. That’s my explanation. 

    • #14
  15. Katie O Inactive
    Katie O
    @KatieO

    Sounds like a bs artist. His opinions don’t need to make sense as long as they sound good. I’d take everything he told you with a grain of salt.  Saint Patrick brought Christianity to pagan Ireland and the Templars were dissolved long before Protestants existed.

    • #15
  16. Paddy S Member
    Paddy S
    @PaddySiochain

    As a history teacher Rob. He’s talking crap. Protestantism didn’t come to England until 1533. England had been here long before then. He’s a spoofer or mixing up his facts and fiction

    I suggest you ask this history teacher ha

    • #16
  17. Mate De Inactive
    Mate De
    @MateDe

    Paddy S (View Comment):

    As a history teacher Rob. He’s talking crap. Protestantism didn’t come to England until 1533. England had been here long before then. He’s a spoofer or mixing up his facts and fiction

    I suggest you ask this history teacher ha

    I think our friend on Ricochet here is right, in pointing out the incoherent position the tour guide has regarding the EU, though. I think there are a good amount of Irish folks that have the same position, and don’t see the illogic of that .

    • #17
  18. Hypatia Member
    Hypatia
    @

    Gromrus (View Comment):

    Your tour guide’s muddled thinking on the present is no surprise. He has muddled thinking about history. The Knights Templar ended in the early 1300s, 200 years before Luther’s posting of the 95 theses on the Wittenberg door and even before the births of the earliest proto-reformists Wycliffe, Huss, etc. The KT were certainly not sent to prevent the Reformation in Ireland.

    You best  me to it!  Sheesh, this guide’s spiel  belongs in Lettice and Lovage ( hilarious play about an English spinster whose job is to show very few visitors a castle where nothing interesting had ever happened–so she invents salacious and fascinating events,  for the then rapidly increasing hordes of tourists.)  

     And Ireland was thoroughly, although somewhat idiosyncratically, Catholic by the 9Th Cent.    

    But who cares?  Nobody can talk like the Irish, whose motto seems to be, “Never use one word when fifty will do!”   Love ’em!!

    • #18
  19. Hypatia Member
    Hypatia
    @

    Katie O (View Comment):

    Sounds like a bs artist. His opinions don’t need to make sense as long as they sound good. I’d take everything he told you with a grain of salt. Saint Patrick brought Christianity to pagan Ireland and the Templars were dissolved long before Protestants existed.

    …or were they?  Surely you know about the ones who escaped Paris in the hay-wain and got to Scotland where they relieved the Bruce at Bannockburn! 

    • #19
  20. Unsk Member
    Unsk
    @Unsk

    “Henry 8th lived 1491-1547

    Martin Luther lived 1483-1546

    In 1210, did the Templars foresee their effects on the Church?

    The guy may in fact be 50 years old, but I would stop there.”

    Yup.

    However, Henry the II in the 1100’s did put the English in Ireland  for nearly forever and treated the Irish like scum. Maybe that what’s he was thinking about.  Oh well, Irish logic.  I have more than a wee bit of Irish in me as well, so whaddoyouknow from me.

    At the time of Patrick, the Irish were fierce fighters but after that they were conquered by the Danes, the Vikings and the English and only had their own country since the Troubles.  Back in the day they were always arguing among themselves and could never unite to fight a common foe. Maybe that’s why the Irish are so frightened about standing on their own now.

    • #20
  21. Katie O Inactive
    Katie O
    @KatieO

    Hypatia (View Comment):

    Katie O (View Comment):

    Sounds like a bs artist…Saint Patrick brought Christianity to pagan Ireland and the Templars were dissolved long before Protestants existed.

    …or were they? Surely you know about the ones who escaped Paris in the hay-wain and got to Scotland where they relieved the Bruce at Bannockburn!

    Ha, I wouldn’t know. But, even if Templars fought at Bannockburn that’s centuries before Protestantism. 

    • #21
  22. contrarian Inactive
    contrarian
    @Contrarian

    Doctor Robert (View Comment):

    As do I.

    Henry 8th lived 1491-1547

    Martin Luther lived 1483-1546

    In 1210, did the Templars foresee their effects on the Church?

    The guy may in fact be 50 years old, but I would stop there.

    As far as I can tell, the only role the Templars had in Ireland was ensuring that taxes collected in Norman controlled territory weren’t intercepted before they got to the royal court. That makes perfect sense. In the popular imagination, Templars were knights in the white mantles with a giant cross (red to symbolize a willingness to martyr one’s self in battle), but very few members of the order were knights. A lot of their power came from banking.

    Part of their mandate was to protect pilgrims, and many were robbed and killed after they got to the middle east but before they could get to the relative security of Jerusalem. They originally got involved in finance when they began issuing early versions of a traveler’s check so bandits wouldn’t target everyone making a pilgrimage to the Holy Lands.

     

    Ultimately it was their activity as bankers that destroyed them. The ironically named King Phillip ‘the Fair’ had the Templars falsely accused of heresy because he ran up a massive debt to their order. He chose to slander and persecute the Templars, then burn its leaders at the stake to avoid negotiating unfavorable terms to pay back what he’d borrowed.

     

    It’s anachronistic to put the Templars into a conflict that started two centuries after they ceased to exist, but it’s also kind of funny given that in Ireland they were basically just a medieval Wells Fargo.

    • #22
  23. Mike-K Member
    Mike-K
    @

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):
    Here is my 48 year old contortionist wife kissing the Blarney Stone:

    I did it long ago but can’t find the photo.

    • #23
  24. Could Be Anyone Inactive
    Could Be Anyone
    @CouldBeAnyone

    JudithannCampbell (View Comment):

    GLDIII (View Comment):

    Whistle Pig (View Comment):

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Mike-K (View Comment):
    I did kiss the Blarney Stone. I’m not sure that is as popular now.

    Oh, it’s still popular. We waited 90 minutes so my wife could do it. I didn’t – I don’t understand things like that. But I loved Blarney Castle. Incredible.

    Here is my 48 year old contortionist wife kissing the Blarney Stone:

    The stone looks wet, is that from all the folks kissing it?

    My wife visited that stone two years ago with our Troop’s Scout contingent on their way to a Jamboree in the Scottish highlands, and the local Irish guide they were touring with mention that it’s not unheard of the locals doing some late night micturating on the stone for their American cousins.

    He was joking, I think…

    According to my husband, the tour guide wasn’t joking. It is totally true.

    My brother said he heard the same thing when he went to Ireland about 4 years ago. The Irish have to do something to have a laugh I guess.

    • #24
  25. Charles Mark Member
    Charles Mark
    @CharlesMark

    There is a post-colonial inferiority complex that infects a vast proportion of Irish people. At its most infuriating it comprises seething contempt for our native language, our unique Gaelic  Games and our traditional music. It is rampant in and around Dublin but present almost everywhere. 

    At its most damaging our post-colonial syndrome causes our leaders to look overseas- to the U.K., to  UN and now to Europe to tell us how to order our affairs, even to write our laws. A recent article in National Review,post-Referendum, spoke of Ireland becoming a province of Europe- absolutely spot-on! The EU didn’t do much for us when our economy collapsed in 2008 and I’d vote to leave it in a heartbeat. 

    By the way, there’s a lot of negative talk these days about nationalism. I don’t know what the hell is wrong with it- unless you’re an imperialist!

     

     

    • #25
  26. Dr. Bastiat Member
    Dr. Bastiat
    @drbastiat

    Hang On (View Comment):
    The contradictions are pretty stark, aren’t they? The Irish have essentially traded English for German overlords.

    This is what I don’t understand.  They fight for years and years to gain independence from England, then they voluntarily forfeit their independence for no clear reason. 

    I don’t get it. 

    • #26
  27. Charles Mark Member
    Charles Mark
    @CharlesMark

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):
    The contradictions are pretty stark, aren’t they? The Irish have essentially traded English for German overlords.

    This is what I don’t understand. They fight for years and years to gain independence from England, then they voluntarily forfeit their independence for no clear reason.

    I don’t get it.

    The Easter Rising in 1916 was not popular. It was the harsh treatment of the leaders afterwards that galvanised the people to fight for independence. It’s not as if there was constant rebellion for 800 years. 

    • #27
  28. Hypatia Member
    Hypatia
    @

    Dr. Bastiat (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):
    The contradictions are pretty stark, aren’t they? The Irish have essentially traded English for German overlords.

    This is what I don’t understand. They fight for years and years to gain independence from England, then they voluntarily forfeit their independence for no clear reason.

    I don’t get it.

    German overlords? Yeah, they tried that before; see Riger Casement…

    i think, as always, it’s not so much a desire for independence in general.  It’s independence of and rejection of England.  

    And who can blame them, if you look at England’s long string of totally punitive actions toward Ireland. 

    • #28
  29. Mate De Inactive
    Mate De
    @MateDe

    Charles Mark (View Comment):

    There is a post-colonial inferiority complex that infects a vast proportion of Irish people. At its most infuriating it comprises seething contempt for our native language, our unique Gaelic Games and our traditional music. It is rampant in and around Dublin but present almost everywhere.

     

    Come to New York, we LOVE all the traditional Irish stuff. At NYU you can get a masters in Irish and Irish American studies 

    http://as.nyu.edu/irelandhouse.html

     

     

     

    • #29
  30. Charles Mark Member
    Charles Mark
    @CharlesMark

    Mate De (View Comment):

    Charles Mark (View Comment):

    There is a post-colonial inferiority complex that infects a vast proportion of Irish people. At its most infuriating it comprises seething contempt for our native language, our unique Gaelic Games and our traditional music. It is rampant in and around Dublin but present almost everywhere.

     

    Come to New York, we LOVE all the traditional Irish stuff. At NYU you can get a masters in Irish and Irish American studies

    http://as.nyu.edu/irelandhouse.html

     

     

     

    I spent a good bit of time in NY in the 1980s. Plenty of Irish there alright. Funny thing, I always thought I had a fairly neutral accent but my American friends thought I was straight out of Darby O’Gill! 

    • #30
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