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  1. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    I Walton (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):
    You have more confidence in Trump and his team than I do. I fervently hope this works out, but that Trump could be played, even willingly, seems well within the bounds of the possible here.

    Saying we’ll have to wait and see and asking for no more than an opening is hardly a marching band endorsement, but there were no senior people in the Obama Administration with real foreign policy experience, and a lot that lived in the delusional or opportunistic ( I never know which) world of our hard left. In contrast almost everyone surrounding President Trump has long, deep and hard nosed experience. I thought his press conference was just right. We’ve given up nothing and have already gotten movement. Moreover, Kim only knows Trump from his bad hostile press and from Chinese intelligence sources, do you think that he’d seriously believe that a bunch of phony gestures will get him enduring concessions or that in Trump’s face violations of anything agreed to would be clever tactics?

    I have no idea what Kim knows or thinks and neither do you.

    • #91
  2. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    Valiuth (View Comment):
    America could have tried to move forces into eastern Europe after the War was over. I think Poland, Romania, Hungry, and Czechoslovakia would have been happy to have some Americans and British there like there had been in Austria.

    Weren’t there already Red Army forces occupying those countries?  Are you saying move troops in anyway and dare them to start something?  What if they started shooting at our troops?  Or what if they responded by rolling Red Army tanks into Western Europe?

     

    • #92
  3. Clifford A. Brown Member
    Clifford A. Brown
    @CliffordBrown

    George Townsend (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    I Walton (View Comment):

    Umbra of Nex, Fractus (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    LOL. If this had happened under Obama the press would be in ecstasy and the carvers would be swarming over Mt Rushmore to add him as the fifth head….

    And the right would be excoriating Obama for “legitimizing” Kim and fretting that “lasting peace,” for Kim, means the US leaving South Korea (and this leaving them vulnerable to invasion.) There’s plenty of hypocrisy to go around.

    I pray I’m wrong, but I’m with @jailer until proven otherwise.

    We would be correct to distrust anything that Obama did because there is little evidence he meant us well, or, alternatively that he understood nothing about the world or about power.

    What this means we’ll have to wait and see. It’s an opening and that is good because we are blind and need some eyes and shoes on the ground there. That’s where one always must begin, that is, once we have NK attention. Unlike Obama, President Trump is surrounded by adults and he seems to understand power. Understanding actually matters and to have understanding one must believe there is something other than partisan posturing to understand.

    You have more confidence in Trump and his team than I do. I fervently hope this works out, but that Trump could be played, even willingly, seems well within the bounds of the possible here. This will really only lead to a permanent peace if Kim, who is young and about whom, let’s face it, we know little, genuinely wants a different futre for his country. I too pray he does.

    I’d like to add this: I didn’t like many of the things Trump said at the press conference, rhapsodizing about what a good leader Kim is, saying he wants what’s best for his people

    Then there’s this, which nobody talks about: The president said that he eventually wants to bring all of our troops home. What would stop Kim from biding his time, waiting for that to happen, invade the South, and turn it into a giant concentration camp, like the North is?

    There is no chance Kim could ever successfully invade South Korea. Look up the Republic of Korea’s military. Look at the outdated NK equipment. It is not 1950. Just look at the nighttime photos from space. No nukes, no coercive reunification. So no need to talk about it.

    You should also understand Kim is in peril, the top warlord among ambitious warlords styling themselves general. What, beyond nukes, does Kim have to justify remaining atop the regime? Hence, the symbolic and rhetorical support. North Korea’s great enemy has accorded the grandson of the “Great Leader” respect. He will have lots of gravy to ladle out to the warlords, similar to China, Vietnam, and Russia.  

    • #93
  4. Guruforhire Inactive
    Guruforhire
    @Guruforhire

    Frank Soto (View Comment):
    We put our flags on par even though they don’t deserve to be, because if humbling ourselves a bit gets the right outcome here, it was worth it.

    we put our flags on equal height because Westphalian sovereignty is a thing.  All countries are equal in that way.

    Kind of like how we are all equal before the law, but some of us are just richer, better looking with a hot wife and well behaved children.

    a nice house

    a fancy car

    a warm dinner tonight

    and so forth.

    • #94
  5. MKM Inactive
    MKM
    @Badgawfer

    Love it. Can’t wait to see a Trump Resort (with golf course) on the beaches of North Korea.

    • #95
  6. Clifford A. Brown Member
    Clifford A. Brown
    @CliffordBrown

    Frank Soto (View Comment):

    Clifford A. Brown (View Comment):

    Frank Soto (View Comment):

    Clifford A. Brown (View Comment):

    Frank Soto (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Come on people. Let’s be positive for at least 24 hours.

    Franco (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Come on people. Let’s be positive for at least 24 hours.

    There was an awful lot of build up for a “meh” moment Zafar. Sometimes these first steps turn out to be important “get to know you” and “build trust” exercises and I hope that happens here. But for the moment, all we got out of it appears to be a photo op and some flowery words.

    I’m not so much critical of the approach as the build up. Expectations were set too high.

    Who built you up?

    There was a lot of Nobel talk flying around, and much of it from the White House.

    First half yes, second half not so.

    Ummm….

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/browse/trump-everyone-thinks-i-deserve-nobel-prize/vi-AAx1Fsl

    Ummm…. “much” and you know it did not start with the White House, and you know the President shifted the focus from empty symbols to real peace in his full answer.

    I apologize for not linking numerous references that can be easily verified by a Google search. Forgive me for still not doing that, as it is a waste of my time, and yours for that matter. Don’t waste your time trying paint a modest Trump. Find better uses of your energy.

    President Trump is anything but modest, AND  not likely really impressed by a “prize” given to his predecessor for breathing. Of course, he loves getting a rise out of the media.

    • #96
  7. George Townsend Inactive
    George Townsend
    @GeorgeTownsend

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    rgbact (View Comment):

    Looks like lots of fanfare for a deal thats worse than even Bill Clinton or George W had agreed to in the past. Seeing Trump slobber all of the NK despot just makes me appreciate how awesome it was that Reagan stood up to and defeated the Soviets, especially since appeasement is really popular with the public, and even many conservatives.

    The thing is, there isn’t a deal yet. Just a mutual commitment to work toward one. That might be nothing, I don’t know. One of the key items to keep an eye on in negotiations is who benefits from delay. So maybe NoKo’s whole nuclear program imploded when that mountain did and this is Kim playing (successfully) for time. That’s one possibility and in that scenario, Trump is being played just like Clinton and Bush were. Or maybe Kim is a new generation and a guy who sees what’s outside his borders and wants to be part of it, and these are the first, slow, tentative steps toward a freer North Korea and a peaceful peninsula. That’s another possibility and in that scenario, Trump is a great statesman and Nobel winner for seeing the opportunity and seizing it. Do you know which it is? Because I honestly don’t.

    I think at this point Cautious skepticism and Cautious Optimism are both legitimate reactions.

    I agree with this, but let’s do a thought experiment: What if the same press confidence, with the same words, were given by Obama? What would people’s reactions be then? I’d suggest that we do that from now on, regarding North Korea: Forget the people involved. Listen to the words that are used, and read them, and then try and come to a sensible and thoughtful conclusion.

     

    • #97
  8. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Valiuth (View Comment):
    America could have tried to move forces into eastern Europe after the War was over. I think Poland, Romania, Hungry, and Czechoslovakia would have been happy to have some Americans and British there like there had been in Austria.

    Weren’t there already Red Army forces occupying those countries? Are you saying move troops in anyway and dare them to start something? What if they started shooting at our troops? Or what if they responded by rolling Red Army tanks into Western Europe?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxAIE9TbGyk

    • #98
  9. Umbra of Nex, Fractus Inactive
    Umbra of Nex, Fractus
    @UmbraFractus

    Franco (View Comment):

    Take a look at any ally we’ve ever had and the so called war crimes we have participated in from every single war. Others can be worse than we are/were, but we hold no special moral high ground to lecture others. Besides, it’s completely ineffective. Shaming and condemning Kim might make you feel superior and righteous, but will result in nothing more than the perpetuation of the evil conditions.

    If Barack Obama had said this, word for word, you’d have been calling for his impeachment.

    Edit: Tense fix.

    • #99
  10. rgbact Inactive
    rgbact
    @romanblichar

    One more way Trump is moving conservative sensibilities to the left. Blame America first isn’t just for lefties anymore! How dare we actually get involved with the ashheap countries of the world and commit all them “war crimes”.

    And, this is what makes me reflect on Reagan. That moral leadership that is an anathema to Trumpism at every level.

     

    • #100
  11. Umbra of Nex, Fractus Inactive
    Umbra of Nex, Fractus
    @UmbraFractus

    rgbact (View Comment):

    One more way Trump is moving conservative sensibilities to the left. Blame America first isn’t just for lefties anymore! How dare we actually get involved with the ashheap countries of the world and commit all them “war crimes”.

     

    Remember when praising our enemies while simultaneously antagonizing our allies was a bad thing?

    • #101
  12. Annefy Member
    Annefy
    @Annefy

    George Townsend (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    rgbact (View Comment):

    Looks like lots of fanfare for a deal thats worse than even Bill Clinton or George W had agreed to in the past. Seeing Trump slobber all of the NK despot just makes me appreciate how awesome it was that Reagan stood up to and defeated the Soviets, especially since appeasement is really popular with the public, and even many conservatives.

    The thing is, there isn’t a deal yet. Just a mutual commitment to work toward one. That might be nothing, I don’t know. One of the key items to keep an eye on in negotiations is who benefits from delay. So maybe NoKo’s whole nuclear program imploded when that mountain did and this is Kim playing (successfully) for time. That’s one possibility and in that scenario, Trump is being played just like Clinton and Bush were. Or maybe Kim is a new generation and a guy who sees what’s outside his borders and wants to be part of it, and these are the first, slow, tentative steps toward a freer North Korea and a peaceful peninsula. That’s another possibility and in that scenario, Trump is a great statesman and Nobel winner for seeing the opportunity and seizing it. Do you know which it is? Because I honestly don’t.

    I think at this point Cautious skepticism and Cautious Optimism are both legitimate reactions.

    I agree with this, but let’s do a thought experiment: What if the same press confidence, with the same words, were given by Obama? What would people’s reactions be then? I’d suggest that we do that from now on, regarding North Korea: Forget the people involved. Listen to the words that are used, and read them, and then try and come to a sensible and thoughtful conclusion.

    How does this type of thought experiment make sense? Why would anyone wanting to reach a sensible and thoughtful conclusion forget the people involved?

    I have four adult children. Write a speech and have all four of them read it aloud, word for word.

    My takeaway is going to be different for all four.

    • #102
  13. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    rgbact (View Comment):

    One more way Trump is moving conservative sensibilities to the left. Blame America first isn’t just for lefties anymore! How dare we actually get involved with the ashheap countries of the world and commit all them “war crimes”.

    And, this is what makes me reflect on Reagan. That moral leadership that is an anathema to Trumpism at every level.

     

    It’s good to know the unreasonable proclamations are still coming from both sides of me on the conservative side.

    • #103
  14. Franco Member
    Franco
    @Franco

    Umbra of Nex, Fractus (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):

    Take a look at any ally we’ve ever had and the so called war crimes we have participated in from every single war. Others can be worse than we are/were, but we hold no special moral high ground to lecture others. Besides, it’s completely ineffective. Shaming and condemning Kim might make you feel superior and righteous, but will result in nothing more than the perpetuation of the evil conditions.

    If Barack Obama had said this, word for word, you’d have been calling for his impeachment.

    Edit: Tense fix.

    Not true. Obama acted as though America was as bad or worse than other countries, past and present. Trump believes as I do, that America is the best country by far in the world – although still not in a position to lecture others ( especially when that’s clearly counterproductive).

    The reason a dictator oppresses ‘his people’ ( his opposition and avowed enemies) is because they threaten his regime, his life and his family’s lives plus his friends and allies. So your brilliant strategy seems to boil down to telling him he has to go soft on his enemies before we will deign to deal. This is a losing formula. It’s proven so.

    There were real reasons Obama could have been impeached ( and not for what he said) but that would’ve been monumentally stupid since his supporters and all black folks would have had a conniption and there’d be blood in the streets.

    The point is, you guys’ insistence on having our leaders morally preen and posture as though he is superior and that the American people are better people. This is actually quite chauvinistic. It’s off-putting and it yields negative results. But, judging from the style of your comments across threads here, it looks like you are really most interested in looking good.

     

    • #104
  15. Hank Rhody, Total Rip-off Contributor
    Hank Rhody, Total Rip-off
    @HankRhody

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    So I’m hopeful something comes out of this, its too soon to judge either way.

    I do have to say this: is anyone else sickened to see our flag flying next to, and on parity with, the flag for one of the vilest nations in the world? It just rubs me the wrong way.

    I’m really not. I don’t share Valiuth’s view that we lack the moral high ground vis-a-vis North Korea, but evil or not, it is a nation. And it has nuclear weapons. I don’t think we have the luxury of taking the posture that they’re too contemptible to talk to. It would be nice if we could, but that’s just not the real world. The flags at a summit just say “you’re an equal in that we’re both nation states on this planet” not “you’re an equal in that your system is morally equivalent to ours.”

    I recognize all of that, and it still rubs me the wrong way. I recognize this is entirely emotional, but that flag, our flag, stands for something truly amazing. It’s special, it’s not just the flag of any other nation.

    I had the same reaction. Also, the Fat Little Boy is taller than I thought he was.

    Mark Wilson (View Comment):

    President Trump is supposedly 8 inches taller than Kim. Is Kim wearing shoe inserts?

    Point.

    • #105
  16. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    Then there’s this, which nobody talks about: The president said that he eventually wants to bring all of our troops home. What would stop Kim from biding his time, waiting for that to happen, invade the South, and turn it into a giant concentration camp, like the North is?

    Once again.

    South Korea has 51 million people. Norks 26 million.

    South Korean GDP is 1.4 Trillion, Norks 12.3 billion.

    I think South Korea is more then able to defend itself.

     

    or do we keep US troops there in perpetuity ?

    • #106
  17. Jamie Lockett Member
    Jamie Lockett
    @JamieLockett

    Kozak (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    Then there’s this, which nobody talks about: The president said that he eventually wants to bring all of our troops home. What would stop Kim from biding his time, waiting for that to happen, invade the South, and turn it into a giant concentration camp, like the North is?

    Once again.

    South Korea has 51 million people. Norks 26 million.

    South Korean GDP is 1.4 Trillion, Norks 12.3 billion.

    I think South Korea is more then able to defend itself.

    or do we keep US troops there in perpetuity ?

    China has 1.4 Billion people and a GDP of 11.2 Trillion

    • #107
  18. J.D. Snapp Coolidge
    J.D. Snapp
    @JulieSnapp

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Valiuth (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):
    This kind of thinking has kept America back since FDR times. I reference him because of, you know, Stalin (?)

    I thought FDR’s dealings with Stalin were maybe the quintessential example of the dangers of dealing with mad men. Giving Stalin Eastern Europe was not exactly America’s noblest moment nor the moment of our greatest diplomatic acumen.

     

    Giving Stalin Eastern Europe? This truly shows the total, complete and rank stupidity of you neocons. We didn’t give Stalin anything. First, it was never ours to give away. Second, there was just the tinsey, tiny problem of Hitler’s Wehrmacht. Third, I can only think you would have preferred Americans dying rather than Russians dying for a strip of land that historically would be under German or Russian control as it had been for centuries. Trying selling that one to the American public. Bush apologized for this and showed what a total dunce he is.

    You sound kind of stupid to me too, but maybe we have a better conversation if we don’t call each other stupid? Think?

    Rude perhaps, but helpful if it drew attention to the person who started it.

    If you needed to draw attention to the person who started it, there’s a flagging system for that. I’d hate for you to have to go through the trouble of re-discovering the wheel when it already exists.

    • #108
  19. Valiuth Member
    Valiuth
    @Valiuth

    Joseph Stanko (View Comment):

    Valiuth (View Comment):
    America could have tried to move forces into eastern Europe after the War was over. I think Poland, Romania, Hungry, and Czechoslovakia would have been happy to have some Americans and British there like there had been in Austria.

    Weren’t there already Red Army forces occupying those countries? Are you saying move troops in anyway and dare them to start something? What if they started shooting at our troops? Or what if they responded by rolling Red Army tanks into Western Europe?

     

    I’m suggesting joint occupation, like what happened in Germany and Austria. Technically Romania and Poland had independent governments though I think the Soviets had excessive influence over them. But, you had the exiled Polish government in England that should have been brought back and at least for a brief period Romania still had its King and constitutional government which were restored when he overthrew the German backed dictator. The time to have pushed in would have been before German surrender, on the pretexts of aid and support. The Russians should not have been trusted to honor anything after the war, and so once Anglo-American forces were again on the Continent all plans should have been taken to not allow the USSR to have complete control of anything outside their original broders (ie. not in Poland, Hungry, Romania, and Czechoslovakia). Once the war with Germany ended I agree that moving in would have sparked a whole new war, but during the war they had good pretext and justification that I don’t think Stalin could have easily refused. Plus by the end of the war we had a rather large Army on the continent too it would have been a bad time for the Russians to pick a fight. We had the most leverage, but we trusted the Russians too much. 

     

    • #109
  20. blood thirsty neocon Inactive
    blood thirsty neocon
    @bloodthirstyneocon

    George Townsend (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    I Walton (View Comment):

    Umbra of Nex, Fractus (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    LOL. If this had happened under Obama the press would be in ecstasy and the carvers would be swarming over Mt Rushmore to add him as the fifth head….

    And the right would be excoriating Obama for “legitimizing” Kim and fretting that “lasting peace,” for Kim, means the US leaving South Korea (and this leaving them vulnerable to invasion.) There’s plenty of hypocrisy to go around.

    I pray I’m wrong, but I’m with @jailer until proven otherwise.

    We would be correct to distrust anything that Obama did because there is little evidence he meant us well, or, alternatively that he understood nothing about the world or about power.

    What this means we’ll have to wait and see. It’s an opening and that is good because we are blind and need some eyes and shoes on the ground there. That’s where one always must begin, that is, once we have NK attention. Unlike Obama, President Trump is surrounded by adults and he seems to understand power. Understanding actually matters and to have understanding one must believe there is something other than partisan posturing to understand.

    You have more confidence in Trump and his team than I do. I fervently hope this works out, but that Trump could be played, even willingly, seems well within the bounds of the possible here. This will really only lead to a permanent peace if Kim, who is young and about whom, let’s face it, we know little, genuinely wants a different futre for his country. I too pray he does.

    I’d like to add this: I didn’t like many of the things Trump said at the press conference, rhapsodizing about what a good leader Kim is, saying he wants what’s best for his people

    Then there’s this, which nobody talks about: The president said that he eventually wants to bring all of our troops home. What would stop Kim from biding his time, waiting for that to happen, invade the South, and turn it into a giant concentration camp, like the North is?

    I believe he also said that our troop presence in South Korea is not on the table in this negotiation.

    • #110
  21. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    Then there’s this, which nobody talks about: The president said that he eventually wants to bring all of our troops home. What would stop Kim from biding his time, waiting for that to happen, invade the South, and turn it into a giant concentration camp, like the North is?

    Once again.

    South Korea has 51 million people. Norks 26 million.

    South Korean GDP is 1.4 Trillion, Norks 12.3 billion.

    I think South Korea is more then able to defend itself.

    or do we keep US troops there in perpetuity ?

    China has 1.4 Billion people and a GDP of 11.2 Trillion.

    You think China really wants to destroy their economy over Korea?  Seriously?

    • #111
  22. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    Then there’s this, which nobody talks about: The president said that he eventually wants to bring all of our troops home. What would stop Kim from biding his time, waiting for that to happen, invade the South, and turn it into a giant concentration camp, like the North is?

    Once again.

    South Korea has 51 million people. Norks 26 million.

    South Korean GDP is 1.4 Trillion, Norks 12.3 billion.

    I think South Korea is more then able to defend itself.

    or do we keep US troops there in perpetuity ?

    China has 1.4 Billion people and a GDP of 11.2 Trillion.

    You think China really wants to destroy their economy over Korea? Seriously?

    If the US has backed out of protecting the south, it would need do no such thing.  It is important that Trump not give away the US protection of South Korea.

    • #112
  23. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Frank Soto (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    Then there’s this, which nobody talks about: The president said that he eventually wants to bring all of our troops home. What would stop Kim from biding his time, waiting for that to happen, invade the South, and turn it into a giant concentration camp, like the North is?

    Once again.

    South Korea has 51 million people. Norks 26 million.

    South Korean GDP is 1.4 Trillion, Norks 12.3 billion.

    I think South Korea is more then able to defend itself.

    or do we keep US troops there in perpetuity ?

    China has 1.4 Billion people and a GDP of 11.2 Trillion.

    You think China really wants to destroy their economy over Korea? Seriously?

    If the US has backed out of protecting the south, it would need do no such thing. It is important that Trump not give away the US protection of South Korea.

    We have treaty obligations to defend the South.  China is well aware of that.

    • #113
  24. George Townsend Inactive
    George Townsend
    @GeorgeTownsend

    Annefy (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    rgbact (View Comment):

    Looks like lots of fanfare for a deal thats worse than even Bill Clinton or George W had agreed to in the past. Seeing Trump slobber all of the NK despot just makes me appreciate how awesome it was that Reagan stood up to and defeated the Soviets, especially since appeasement is really popular with the public, and even many conservatives.

    The thing is, there isn’t a deal yet. Just a mutual commitment to work toward one. That might be nothing, I don’t know. One of the key items to keep an eye on in negotiations is who benefits from delay. So maybe NoKo’s whole nuclear program imploded when that mountain did and this is Kim playing (successfully) for time. That’s one possibility and in that scenario, Trump is being played just like Clinton and Bush were. Or maybe Kim is a new generation and a guy who sees what’s outside his borders and wants to be part of it, and these are the first, slow, tentative steps toward a freer North Korea and a peaceful peninsula. That’s another possibility and in that scenario, Trump is a great statesman and Nobel winner for seeing the opportunity and seizing it. Do you know which it is? Because I honestly don’t.

    I think at this point Cautious skepticism and Cautious Optimism are both legitimate reactions.

    I agree with this, but let’s do a thought experiment: What if the same press confidence, with the same words, were given by Obama? What would people’s reactions be then? I’d suggest that we do that from now on, regarding North Korea: Forget the people involved. Listen to the words that are used, and read them, and then try and come to a sensible and thoughtful conclusion.

    How does this type of thought experiment make sense? Why would anyone wanting to reach a sensible and thoughtful conclusion forget the people involved?

    I have four adult children. Write a speech and have all four of them read it aloud, word for word.

    My takeaway is going to be different for all four.

    For Heaven’s sake, just being contrary is not going to work. We are not talking about speeches. We are talking about agreements about peace. Involving an evil regime: NK. I am asking that we forget who the president is, and read the text, and then decide, by those words, and any others words, written or said, if they make sense. If we thought the same treaty is bad under Obama, we should think it bad under Trump.

    • #114
  25. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Frank Soto (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    Then there’s this, which nobody talks about: The president said that he eventually wants to bring all of our troops home. What would stop Kim from biding his time, waiting for that to happen, invade the South, and turn it into a giant concentration camp, like the North is?

    Once again.

    South Korea has 51 million people. Norks 26 million.

    South Korean GDP is 1.4 Trillion, Norks 12.3 billion.

    I think South Korea is more then able to defend itself.

    or do we keep US troops there in perpetuity ?

    China has 1.4 Billion people and a GDP of 11.2 Trillion.

    You think China really wants to destroy their economy over Korea? Seriously?

    If the US has backed out of protecting the south, it would need do no such thing. It is important that Trump not give away the US protection of South Korea.

    We have treaty obligations to defend the South. China is well aware of that.

    We had treaty obligations to protect South Vietnam after our troops left as well.

    China is well aware of that.

    • #115
  26. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    J.D. Snapp (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Valiuth (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):
    This kind of thinking has kept America back since FDR times. I reference him because of, you know, Stalin (?)

    I thought FDR’s dealings with Stalin were maybe the quintessential example of the dangers of dealing with mad men. Giving Stalin Eastern Europe was not exactly America’s noblest moment nor the moment of our greatest diplomatic acumen.

     

    Giving Stalin Eastern Europe? This truly shows the total, complete and rank stupidity of you neocons. We didn’t give Stalin anything. First, it was never ours to give away. Second, there was just the tinsey, tiny problem of Hitler’s Wehrmacht. Third, I can only think you would have preferred Americans dying rather than Russians dying for a strip of land that historically would be under German or Russian control as it had been for centuries. Trying selling that one to the American public. Bush apologized for this and showed what a total dunce he is.

    You sound kind of stupid to me too, but maybe we have a better conversation if we don’t call each other stupid? Think?

    Rude perhaps, but helpful if it drew attention to the person who started it.

    If you needed to draw attention to the person who started it, there’s a flagging system for that. I’d hate for you to have to go through the trouble of re-discovering the wheel when it already exists.

    I thought I’d try self help before bothering you.  I’d do it again.

    • #116
  27. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Frank Soto (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Frank Soto (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    Then there’s this, which nobody talks about: The president said that he eventually wants to bring all of our troops home. What would stop Kim from biding his time, waiting for that to happen, invade the South, and turn it into a giant concentration camp, like the North is?

    Once again.

    South Korea has 51 million people. Norks 26 million.

    South Korean GDP is 1.4 Trillion, Norks 12.3 billion.

    I think South Korea is more then able to defend itself.

    or do we keep US troops there in perpetuity ?

    China has 1.4 Billion people and a GDP of 11.2 Trillion.

    You think China really wants to destroy their economy over Korea? Seriously?

    If the US has backed out of protecting the south, it would need do no such thing. It is important that Trump not give away the US protection of South Korea.

    We have treaty obligations to defend the South. China is well aware of that.

    We had treaty obligations to protect South Vietnam after our troops left as well.

    China is well aware of that.

    Well in that case, what does any of this matter?  If the South won’t protect itself, and we won’t honor our treaty obligations, why leave 30k US troops as sitting ducks for the Chicoms?

    This is so overwrought now as to be ludicrous.

     

    • #117
  28. Clifford A. Brown Member
    Clifford A. Brown
    @CliffordBrown

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    Then there’s this, which nobody talks about: The president said that he eventually wants to bring all of our troops home. What would stop Kim from biding his time, waiting for that to happen, invade the South, and turn it into a giant concentration camp, like the North is?

    Once again.

    South Korea has 51 million people. Norks 26 million.

    South Korean GDP is 1.4 Trillion, Norks 12.3 billion.

    I think South Korea is more then able to defend itself.

    or do we keep US troops there in perpetuity ?

    China has 1.4 Billion people and a GDP of 11.2 Trillion.

    China hasn’t rolled tanks on anyone except their own people since an inconclusive spat with Vietnam. Why not American garrisons in every other Asian ally’s country?

    • #118
  29. Umbra of Nex, Fractus Inactive
    Umbra of Nex, Fractus
    @UmbraFractus

    Kozak (View Comment):

    We have treaty obligations to defend the South. China is well aware of that.

    We also have a free trade agreement with Canada. It’s not doing them a whole lot of good right now.

    • #119
  30. Annefy Member
    Annefy
    @Annefy

    George Townsend (View Comment):

    Annefy (View Comment):

    George Townsend (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    rgbact (View Comment):

    Looks like lots of fanfare for a deal thats worse than even Bill Clinton or George W had agreed to in the past. Seeing Trump slobber all of the NK despot just makes me appreciate how awesome it was that Reagan stood up to and defeated the Soviets, especially since appeasement is really popular with the public, and even many conservatives.

    The thing is, there isn’t a deal yet. Just a mutual commitment to work toward one. That might be nothing, I don’t know. One of the key items to keep an eye on in negotiations is who benefits from delay. So maybe NoKo’s whole nuclear program imploded when that mountain did and this is Kim playing (successfully) for time. That’s one possibility and in that scenario, Trump is being played just like Clinton and Bush were. Or maybe Kim is a new generation and a guy who sees what’s outside his borders and wants to be part of it, and these are the first, slow, tentative steps toward a freer North Korea and a peaceful peninsula. That’s another possibility and in that scenario, Trump is a great statesman and Nobel winner for seeing the opportunity and seizing it. Do you know which it is? Because I honestly don’t.

    I agree with this, but let’s do a thought experiment: What if the same press confidence, with the same words, were given by Obama? What would people’s reactions be then? I’d suggest that we do that from now on, regarding North Korea: Forget the people involved. Listen to the words that are used, and read them, and then try and come to a sensible and thoughtful conclusion.

    How does this type of thought experiment make sense? Why would anyone wanting to reach a sensible and thoughtful conclusion forget the people involved?

    I have four adult children. Write a speech and have all four of them read it aloud, word for word.

    My takeaway is going to be different for all four.

    For Heaven’s sake, just being contrary is not going to work. We are not talking about speeches. We are talking about agreements about peace. Involving an evil regime: NK. I am asking that we forget who the president is, and read the text, and then decide, by those words, and any others words, written or said, if they make sense. If we thought the same treaty is bad under Obama, we should think it bad under Trump.

    First, I am not being contrary.

    Second, you mentioned “press confidence” (I assume you meant “press conference) in the comment I responded to

    In your response to me, now you’re talking about agreements and treaties.

    Regardless, my reaction to any statement, written or apoken, is going change depending on the person.

    Which I don’t find extraordinary or unreasonable

    • #120
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