Like this post? Want to comment? Join Ricochet’s community of conservatives and be part of the conversation. Join Ricochet for Free.

There are 129 comments.

Become a member to join the conversation. Or sign in if you're already a member.
  1. blood thirsty neocon Inactive
    blood thirsty neocon
    @bloodthirstyneocon

    I think the transition back to fire and fury is gonna be…awkward. But we’ll get there.

    • #61
  2. Jamie Lockett Member
    Jamie Lockett
    @JamieLockett

    Frank Soto (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    So in the light of morning it appears that the NorKs achieved a significant propaganda victory in exchange for reaffirming preexisting pledges.

    We cancelled a significant military operation with South Korea. We put Un on parity with POTUS on the world stage. POTUS spoke better of Un than he does of longstanding allies. And we received what that was new?

    I think this understates the value of what happened. It my well turn out that Kim is playing a game where he tries to extract as much as he can before pulling the football away. It’s also possible that Kim has grown up around enough western influence that he wants the same sorts of things western countries have, and is willing to make changes to get them.

    Why now? I mean I really hope this is true I just see the history of negotiations with the NorKs and there is a familiar pattern. 

    • #62
  3. Jamie Lockett Member
    Jamie Lockett
    @JamieLockett

    So I’m hopeful something comes out of this, its too soon to judge either way.

    I do have to say this: is anyone else sickened to see our flag flying next to, and on parity with, the flag for one of the vilest nations in the world? It just rubs me the wrong way. 

    • #63
  4. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    Moderator Note:

    Not helping, rude, bad faith

    Valiuth (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):
    This kind of thinking has kept America back since FDR times. I reference him because of, you know, Stalin (?)

    I thought FDR’s dealings with Stalin were maybe the quintessential example of the dangers of dealing with mad men. Giving Stalin Eastern Europe was not exactly America’s noblest moment nor the moment of our greatest diplomatic acumen.

     

    Giving Stalin Eastern Europe? This truly shows the total, complete and rank stupidity of you neocons. We didn’t give Stalin anything. First, it was never ours to give away. Second, there was just the tinsey, tiny problem of Hitler’s Wehrmacht. Third, I can only think you would have preferred Americans dying rather than Russians dying for a strip of land that historically would be under German or Russian control as it had been for centuries. Trying selling that one to the American public. Bush apologized for this and showed what a total dunce he is.

    • #64
  5. Franco Member
    Franco
    @Franco

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Valiuth (View Comment):

    Bartholomew Xerxes Ogilvie, Jr. (View Comment):
    Setting that aside … even if Kim gets rid of his nukes, he’s going to end up better off than before, if he has extracted from the U.S. a “security guarantee” for his regime. So basically we’re rewarding him for starting a nuclear program and then scrapping it. I can’t help wondering if that wasn’t Kim’s plan all along.

    People keep pointing out that the purpose of the nukes is to secure the regime. If they can secure it by being traded away then they have done their job, and in a way far more cheaply than maintaining an operational arsenal. I think if we start seeing sanctions relief as well as increased aid to North Korea as rewards for the current “good behavior” we will know Trump has been played. No such relief should come without meaningful concessions from them such as independent inspectors of their nuclear sites. We certainly should not agree to removing US troops from the DMZ unless North Korea also demilitarizes their side too.

    Frankly I’m troubled by Trumps fawning praise of Kim

    I am similarly not surprised that Trump praised a man who inherited his wealth and power from his father as “talented” but I’m a little disappointed.

    This kind of thinking has kept America back since FDR times. I reference him because of, you know, Stalin (?)

    Take a look at any ally we’ve ever had and the so called war crimes we have participated in from every single war. Others can be worse than we are/were, but we hold no special moral high ground to lecture others. Besides, it’s completely ineffective. Shaming and condemning Kim might make you feel superior and righteous, but will result in nothing more than the perpetuation of the evil conditions.

    Our Presidents are not elected to be moral scolds, going around advocating for “character counts” platitudes. The world is a very dangerous place full of reprehensible leaders, including our own.

    We are blessed with a system whereby our leaders are forced ( mostly) to be accountable and arrive at their places with the assent of the people, and therefore don’t have to rule by terror and oppression. I guarantee you that if Trump or Clinton or Obama had inherited the Nork Throne, they would have acted similarly to Kim Jong Un. When faced with death, people are not going to act like altar boys.

     

    Are you drawing a moral equivalence between the United States/it’s allies and a modern day slave state where the government operates gulags?

    No. I’m not. You seem to be stuck in a loop of moral righteousness and can’t get off. 

    Try to think beyond your preconceptions about the morality of the world and you might grasp the concept.

    • #65
  6. Jamie Lockett Member
    Jamie Lockett
    @JamieLockett

    Franco (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Valiuth (View Comment):

    Bartholomew Xerxes Ogilvie, Jr. (View Comment):
    Setting that aside … even if Kim gets rid of his nukes, he’s going to end up better off than before, if he has extracted from the U.S. a “security guarantee” for his regime. So basically we’re rewarding him for starting a nuclear program and then scrapping it. I can’t help wondering if that wasn’t Kim’s plan all along.

    People keep pointing out that the purpose of the nukes is to secure the regime. If they can secure it by being traded away then they have done their job, and in a way far more cheaply than maintaining an operational arsenal. I think if we start seeing sanctions relief as well as increased aid to North Korea as rewards for the current “good behavior” we will know Trump has been played. No such relief should come without meaningful concessions from them such as independent inspectors of their nuclear sites. We certainly should not agree to removing US troops from the DMZ unless North Korea also demilitarizes their side too.

    Frankly I’m troubled by Trumps fawning praise of Kim

    I am similarly not surprised that Trump praised a man who inherited his wealth and power from his father as “talented” but I’m a little disappointed.

    This kind of thinking has kept America back since FDR times. I reference him because of, you know, Stalin (?)

    Take a look at any ally we’ve ever had and the so called war crimes we have participated in from every single war. Others can be worse than we are/were, but we hold no special moral high ground to lecture others. Besides, it’s completely ineffective. Shaming and condemning Kim might make you feel superior and righteous, but will result in nothing more than the perpetuation of the evil conditions.

    Our Presidents are not elected to be moral scolds, going around advocating for “character counts” platitudes. The world is a very dangerous place full of reprehensible leaders, including our own.

    We are blessed with a system whereby our leaders are forced ( mostly) to be accountable and arrive at their places with the assent of the people, and therefore don’t have to rule by terror and oppression. I guarantee you that if Trump or Clinton or Obama had inherited the Nork Throne, they would have acted similarly to Kim Jong Un. When faced with death, people are not going to act like altar boys.

     

    Are you drawing a moral equivalence between the United States/it’s allies and a modern day slave state where the government operates gulags?

    No. I’m not. You seem to be stuck in a loop of moral righteousness and can’t get off.

    Try to think beyond your preconceptions about the morality of the world and you might grasp the concept.

    I think I’m doing okay but I’m glad you’re worried about me. 

    • #66
  7. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Frank Soto (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    So in the light of morning it appears that the NorKs achieved a significant propaganda victory in exchange for reaffirming preexisting pledges.

    We cancelled a significant military operation with South Korea. We put Un on parity with POTUS on the world stage. POTUS spoke better of Un than he does of longstanding allies. And we received what that was new?

    I think this understates the value of what happened. It my well turn out that Kim is playing a game where he tries to extract as much as he can before pulling the football away. It’s also possible that Kim has grown up around enough western influence that he wants the same sorts of things western countries have, and is willing to make changes to get them.

    Why now? I mean I really hope this is true I just see the history of negotiations with the NorKs and there is a familiar pattern.

    The in person meetings are new and historic.  North Korea easing up on their propaganda, and for example acknowledging the legitimacy of the South Korean government is new.

    Now, it could be Kim has calculated he needs to make these gestures in order to be taken serious enough to extract some concessions, but this is different in a few ways than past negotiations.

    The “why now” would essentially be that things have gotten worse for North Korea, or Kim is finally in secure enough of a position that he can make changes he wants without fear of being overthrown by others in his regime.

    My approach is completely wait and see.  It really could go either way.  I don’t think Trump has given up anything that matters so far, so I’m happy to let this continue for now.

    • #67
  8. Jamie Lockett Member
    Jamie Lockett
    @JamieLockett

    Frank Soto (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Frank Soto (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    So in the light of morning it appears that the NorKs achieved a significant propaganda victory in exchange for reaffirming preexisting pledges.

    We cancelled a significant military operation with South Korea. We put Un on parity with POTUS on the world stage. POTUS spoke better of Un than he does of longstanding allies. And we received what that was new?

    I think this understates the value of what happened. It my well turn out that Kim is playing a game where he tries to extract as much as he can before pulling the football away. It’s also possible that Kim has grown up around enough western influence that he wants the same sorts of things western countries have, and is willing to make changes to get them.

    Why now? I mean I really hope this is true I just see the history of negotiations with the NorKs and there is a familiar pattern.

    The in person meetings are new and historic. North Korea easing up on their propaganda, and for example acknowledging the legitimacy of the South Korean government is new.

    Now, it could be Kim has calculated he needs to make these gestures in order to be taken serious enough to extract some concessions, but this is different in a few ways than past negotiations.

    The “why now” would essentially be that things have gotten worse for North Korea, or Kim is finally in secure enough of a position that he can make changes he wants without fear of being overthrown by others in his regime.

    My approach is completely wait and see. It really could go either way. I don’t think Trump has given up anything that matters so far, so I’m happy to let this continue for now.

    Fair enough, I’m in a wait and see mode too although I do think we’ve given up some significant carrots with little to show for it so far. 

    • #68
  9. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    So I’m hopeful something comes out of this, its too soon to judge either way.

    I do have to say this: is anyone else sickened to see our flag flying next to, and on parity with, the flag for one of the vilest nations in the world? It just rubs me the wrong way.

    I’m really not.  I don’t share Valiuth’s view that we lack the moral high ground vis-a-vis North Korea, but evil or not, it is a nation.  And it has nuclear weapons.  I don’t think we have the luxury of taking the posture that they’re too contemptible to talk to.  It would be nice if we could, but that’s just not the real world.  The flags at a summit just say “you’re an equal in that we’re both nation states on this planet” not “you’re an equal in that your system is morally equivalent to ours.”

    • #69
  10. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    Moderator Note:

    Not helpful and rude

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Valiuth (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):
    This kind of thinking has kept America back since FDR times. I reference him because of, you know, Stalin (?)

    I thought FDR’s dealings with Stalin were maybe the quintessential example of the dangers of dealing with mad men. Giving Stalin Eastern Europe was not exactly America’s noblest moment nor the moment of our greatest diplomatic acumen.

     

    Giving Stalin Eastern Europe? This truly shows the total, complete and rank stupidity of you neocons. We didn’t give Stalin anything. First, it was never ours to give away. Second, there was just the tinsey, tiny problem of Hitler’s Wehrmacht. Third, I can only think you would have preferred Americans dying rather than Russians dying for a strip of land that historically would be under German or Russian control as it had been for centuries. Trying selling that one to the American public. Bush apologized for this and showed what a total dunce he is.

    You sound kind of stupid to me too, but maybe we have a better conversation if we don’t call each other stupid?  Think?

    • #70
  11. Jamie Lockett Member
    Jamie Lockett
    @JamieLockett

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    So I’m hopeful something comes out of this, its too soon to judge either way.

    I do have to say this: is anyone else sickened to see our flag flying next to, and on parity with, the flag for one of the vilest nations in the world? It just rubs me the wrong way.

    I’m really not. I don’t share Valiuth’s view that we lack the moral high ground vis-a-vis North Korea, but evil or not, it is a nation. And it has nuclear weapons. I don’t think we have the luxury of taking the posture that they’re too contemptible to talk to. It would be nice if we could, but that’s just not the real world. The flags at a summit just say “you’re an equal in that we’re both nation states on this planet” not “you’re an equal in that your system is morally equivalent to ours.”

    I recognize all of that, and it still rubs me the wrong way. I recognize this is entirely emotional, but that flag, our flag, stands for something truly amazing. It’s special, it’s not just the flag of any other nation. 

    • #71
  12. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    Frank Soto (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Frank Soto (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    So in the light of morning it appears that the NorKs achieved a significant propaganda victory in exchange for reaffirming preexisting pledges.

    We cancelled a significant military operation with South Korea. We put Un on parity with POTUS on the world stage. POTUS spoke better of Un than he does of longstanding allies. And we received what that was new?

    I think this understates the value of what happened. It my well turn out that Kim is playing a game where he tries to extract as much as he can before pulling the football away. It’s also possible that Kim has grown up around enough western influence that he wants the same sorts of things western countries have, and is willing to make changes to get them.

    Why now? I mean I really hope this is true I just see the history of negotiations with the NorKs and there is a familiar pattern.

    The in person meetings are new and historic. North Korea easing up on their propaganda, and for example acknowledging the legitimacy of the South Korean government is new.

    Now, it could be Kim has calculated he needs to make these gestures in order to be taken serious enough to extract some concessions, but this is different in a few ways than past negotiations.

    The “why now” would essentially be that things have gotten worse for North Korea, or Kim is finally in secure enough of a position that he can make changes he wants without fear of being overthrown by others in his regime.

    My approach is completely wait and see. It really could go either way. I don’t think Trump has given up anything that matters so far, so I’m happy to let this continue for now.

    ^ Complete agreement.

    • #72
  13. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    So I’m hopeful something comes out of this, its too soon to judge either way.

    I do have to say this: is anyone else sickened to see our flag flying next to, and on parity with, the flag for one of the vilest nations in the world? It just rubs me the wrong way.

    I think it would have at some point in my life.  I can’t tell you exactly what changed.  I guess it’s just that if the insanity that is North Korea of the past is going to end, part of it is going to be something of an amnesty by the international community.  We all kind of just look the other way at the regime’s past, and the people of North Korea stop being oppressed.  We put our flags on par even though they don’t deserve to be, because if humbling ourselves a bit gets the right outcome here, it was worth it.

    Frank of 3 years ago would try to punch me, but Frank of today has trained a lot of martial arts since then, so past Frank can take his best shot.

    • #73
  14. Clifford A. Brown Member
    Clifford A. Brown
    @CliffordBrown

    Frank Soto (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Come on people. Let’s be positive for at least 24 hours.

    Franco (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Come on people. Let’s be positive for at least 24 hours.

    There was an awful lot of build up for a “meh” moment Zafar. Sometimes these first steps turn out to be important “get to know you” and “build trust” exercises and I hope that happens here. But for the moment, all we got out of it appears to be a photo op and some flowery words.

    I’m not so much critical of the approach as the build up. Expectations were set too high.

    Who built you up?

    There was a lot of Nobel talk flying around, and much of it from the White House.

    First half yes, second half not so.

    • #74
  15. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    Clifford A. Brown (View Comment):

    Frank Soto (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Come on people. Let’s be positive for at least 24 hours.

    Franco (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Come on people. Let’s be positive for at least 24 hours.

    There was an awful lot of build up for a “meh” moment Zafar. Sometimes these first steps turn out to be important “get to know you” and “build trust” exercises and I hope that happens here. But for the moment, all we got out of it appears to be a photo op and some flowery words.

    I’m not so much critical of the approach as the build up. Expectations were set too high.

    Who built you up?

    There was a lot of Nobel talk flying around, and much of it from the White House.

    First half yes, second half not so.

    Ummm….

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/browse/trump-everyone-thinks-i-deserve-nobel-prize/vi-AAx1Fsl

    • #75
  16. George Townsend Inactive
    George Townsend
    @GeorgeTownsend

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    I Walton (View Comment):

    Umbra of Nex, Fractus (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    LOL. If this had happened under Obama the press would be in ecstasy and the carvers would be swarming over Mt Rushmore to add him as the fifth head….

    And the right would be excoriating Obama for “legitimizing” Kim and fretting that “lasting peace,” for Kim, means the US leaving South Korea (and this leaving them vulnerable to invasion.) There’s plenty of hypocrisy to go around.

    I pray I’m wrong, but I’m with @jailer until proven otherwise.

    We would be correct to distrust anything that Obama did because there is little evidence he meant us well, or, alternatively that he understood nothing about the world or about power.

    What this means we’ll have to wait and see. It’s an opening and that is good because we are blind and need some eyes and shoes on the ground there. That’s where one always must begin, that is, once we have NK attention. Unlike Obama, President Trump is surrounded by adults and he seems to understand power. Understanding actually matters and to have understanding one must believe there is something other than partisan posturing to understand.

    You have more confidence in Trump and his team than I do. I fervently hope this works out, but that Trump could be played, even willingly, seems well within the bounds of the possible here. This will really only lead to a permanent peace if Kim, who is young and about whom, let’s face it, we know little, genuinely wants a different futre for his country. I too pray he does.

    I’d like to add this: I didn’t like many of the things Trump said at the press conference, rhapsodizing about what a good leader Kim is, saying he wants what’s best for his people

    Then there’s this, which nobody talks about: The president said that he eventually wants to bring all of our troops home. What would stop Kim from biding his time, waiting for that to happen, invade the South, and turn it into a giant concentration camp, like the North is?

    • #76
  17. Clifford A. Brown Member
    Clifford A. Brown
    @CliffordBrown

    Frank Soto (View Comment):

    Clifford A. Brown (View Comment):

    Frank Soto (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Come on people. Let’s be positive for at least 24 hours.

    Franco (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Come on people. Let’s be positive for at least 24 hours.

    There was an awful lot of build up for a “meh” moment Zafar. Sometimes these first steps turn out to be important “get to know you” and “build trust” exercises and I hope that happens here. But for the moment, all we got out of it appears to be a photo op and some flowery words.

    I’m not so much critical of the approach as the build up. Expectations were set too high.

    Who built you up?

    There was a lot of Nobel talk flying around, and much of it from the White House.

    First half yes, second half not so.

    Ummm….

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/browse/trump-everyone-thinks-i-deserve-nobel-prize/vi-AAx1Fsl

    Ummm…. “much” and you know it did not start with the White House, and you know the President shifted the focus from empty symbols to real peace in his full answer.

    • #77
  18. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    George Townsend (View Comment):

    I’d like to add this: I didn’t like many of the things Trump said at the press conference, rhapsodizing about what a good leader Kim is, saying he wants what’s best for his people

    How much are we going to harp on this?  If relations with North Korea reach a point where we no longer need fear an insane, rogue, nuclear regime, is anyone going to care that Trump was overly polite in the initial stages?  

    Then there’s this, which nobody talks about: The president said that he eventually wants to bring all of our troops home. What would stop Kim from biding his time, waiting for that to happen, invade the South, and turn it into a giant concentration camp, like the North is?

    Trump expressing an inspirational ideal isn’t giving up anything.  If Trumps cuts a deal where the US gives up something significant, while getting only promises in return, I’ll be right there criticizing him.  There is no evidence of that yet.  We should give this a chance.

    • #78
  19. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Valiuth (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):
    This kind of thinking has kept America back since FDR times. I reference him because of, you know, Stalin (?)

    I thought FDR’s dealings with Stalin were maybe the quintessential example of the dangers of dealing with mad men. Giving Stalin Eastern Europe was not exactly America’s noblest moment nor the moment of our greatest diplomatic acumen.

     

    Giving Stalin Eastern Europe? This truly shows the total, complete and rank stupidity of you neocons. We didn’t give Stalin anything. First, it was never ours to give away. Second, there was just the tinsey, tiny problem of Hitler’s Wehrmacht. Third, I can only think you would have preferred Americans dying rather than Russians dying for a strip of land that historically would be under German or Russian control as it had been for centuries. Trying selling that one to the American public. Bush apologized for this and showed what a total dunce he is.

    You sound kind of stupid to me too, but maybe we have a better conversation if we don’t call each other stupid? Think?

    Rude perhaps, but helpful if it drew attention to the person who started it.

    • #79
  20. rgbact Inactive
    rgbact
    @romanblichar

    Looks like lots of fanfare for a deal thats worse than even Bill Clinton or George W had agreed to in the past. This pathetic non-deal could have easily been hammered out at low levels and without the Kim worship

    Seeing Trump slobber all over the NK despot just makes me appreciate how awesome it was that Reagan stood up to and defeated the Soviets, especially since appeasement is really popular with the public, and even many conservatives.

     

     

    • #80
  21. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    Clifford A. Brown (View Comment):

    Frank Soto (View Comment):

    Clifford A. Brown (View Comment):

    Frank Soto (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Come on people. Let’s be positive for at least 24 hours.

    Franco (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Come on people. Let’s be positive for at least 24 hours.

    There was an awful lot of build up for a “meh” moment Zafar. Sometimes these first steps turn out to be important “get to know you” and “build trust” exercises and I hope that happens here. But for the moment, all we got out of it appears to be a photo op and some flowery words.

    I’m not so much critical of the approach as the build up. Expectations were set too high.

    Who built you up?

    There was a lot of Nobel talk flying around, and much of it from the White House.

    First half yes, second half not so.

    Ummm….

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/browse/trump-everyone-thinks-i-deserve-nobel-prize/vi-AAx1Fsl

    Ummm…. “much” and you know it did not start with the White House, and you know the President shifted the focus from empty symbols to real peace in his full answer.

    I apologize for not linking numerous references that can be easily verified by a Google search.  Forgive me for still not doing that, as it is a waste of my time, and yours for that matter.  Don’t waste your time trying paint a modest Trump.  Find better uses of your energy.

    • #81
  22. Joseph Stanko Coolidge
    Joseph Stanko
    @JosephStanko

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    It’s also possible that Kim has grown up around enough western influence that he wants the same sorts of things western countries have, and is willing to make changes to get them.

    Why now? I mean I really hope this is true I just see the history of negotiations with the NorKs and there is a familiar pattern. 

    I suspect Kim’s model is not the West, nor South Korea, but rather his other neighbor and closest ally: China.

    Kim’s father and his generation of advisors may have assumed there were only two options: keep their iron grip on power and remain poor as dirt farmers, or liberalize and lose power.  Predictably, they chose power.

    Kim has now grown up watching China strike trade deals with the West and grow into an economic giant while the Communist Party has retained its iron grip on power and beaten back the democracy movement.  Now there’s a third option on the table: power and wealth.  Kim could be thinking to himself “if I can find a way to end this stalemate, end the sanctions, join the WTO and get MFN trading status, I can put all my gulag slaves to work assembling iPhones and I’ll be rich!”

     

    • #82
  23. Mark Wilson Inactive
    Mark Wilson
    @MarkWilson

    President Trump is supposedly 8 inches taller than Kim.  Is Kim wearing shoe inserts?

    • #83
  24. Frank Soto Member
    Frank Soto
    @FrankSoto

    rgbact (View Comment):
    Looks like lots of fanfare for a deal thats worse than even Bill Clinton or George W had agreed to in the past.

    This is utterly wrong.  Clinton gave away the farm to North Korea.  Trump has given away nothing.  If you don’t keep your criticisms accurately measured, people will ignore them in the future.

    • #84
  25. Valiuth Member
    Valiuth
    @Valiuth

    Hang On (View Comment):

    Valiuth (View Comment):

    Franco (View Comment):
    This kind of thinking has kept America back since FDR times. I reference him because of, you know, Stalin (?)

    I thought FDR’s dealings with Stalin were maybe the quintessential example of the dangers of dealing with mad men. Giving Stalin Eastern Europe was not exactly America’s noblest moment nor the moment of our greatest diplomatic acumen.

     

    Giving Stalin Eastern Europe? This truly shows the total, complete and rank stupidity of you neocons. We didn’t give Stalin anything. First, it was never ours to give away. Second, there was just the tinsey, tiny problem of Hitler’s Wehrmacht. Third, I can only think you would have preferred Americans dying rather than Russians dying for a strip of land that historically would be under German or Russian control as it had been for centuries. Trying selling that one to the American public. Bush apologized for this and showed what a total dunce he is.

    America could have tried to move forces into eastern Europe after the War was over. I think Poland, Romania, Hungry, and Czechoslovakia would have been happy to have some Americans and British there like there had been in Austria. But instead, FDR let Stalin have free reign over these countries. Look at Austria, where the Russians were not given an easily consolidated block to occupy? Because of this Austria was able to be saved from the Iron Curtain. Germany ended up divided, and the rest were swallowed up whole. Trusting Stalin at Yalta was a mistake, and much of the hardship of the Cold War was the result of that mistake. In many ways the Cold War was unavoidable, but we could have had better footing for it had FDR not trusted so much to the good faith of the USSR at Yalta. 

     

    • #85
  26. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    rgbact (View Comment):

    Looks like lots of fanfare for a deal thats worse than even Bill Clinton or George W had agreed to in the past. Seeing Trump slobber all of the NK despot just makes me appreciate how awesome it was that Reagan stood up to and defeated the Soviets, especially since appeasement is really popular with the public, and even many conservatives.

    The thing is, there isn’t a deal yet.  Just a mutual commitment to work toward one.  That might be nothing, I don’t know.  One of the key items to keep an eye on in negotiations is who benefits from delay.  So maybe NoKo’s whole nuclear program imploded when that mountain did and this is Kim playing (successfully) for time.  That’s one possibility and in that scenario, Trump is being played just like Clinton and Bush were.  Or maybe Kim is a new generation and a guy who sees what’s outside his borders and wants to be part of it, and these are the first, slow, tentative steps toward a freer North Korea and a peaceful peninsula.  That’s another possibility and in that scenario, Trump is a great statesman and Nobel winner for seeing the opportunity and seizing it.  Do you know which it is?  Because I honestly don’t. 

    • #86
  27. Jamie Lockett Member
    Jamie Lockett
    @JamieLockett

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    rgbact (View Comment):

    Looks like lots of fanfare for a deal thats worse than even Bill Clinton or George W had agreed to in the past. Seeing Trump slobber all of the NK despot just makes me appreciate how awesome it was that Reagan stood up to and defeated the Soviets, especially since appeasement is really popular with the public, and even many conservatives.

    The thing is, there isn’t a deal yet. Just a mutual commitment to work toward one. That might be nothing, I don’t know. One of the key items to keep an eye on in negotiations is who benefits from delay. So maybe NoKo’s whole nuclear program imploded when that mountain did and this is Kim playing (successfully) for time. That’s one possibility and in that scenario, Trump is being played just like Clinton and Bush were. Or maybe Kim is a new generation and a guy who sees what’s outside his borders and wants to be part of it, and these are the first, slow, tentative steps toward a freer North Korea and a peaceful peninsula. That’s another possibility and in that scenario, Trump is a great statesman and Nobel winner for seeing the opportunity and seizing it. Do you know which it is? Because I honestly don’t.

    I think at this point Cautious Skepticism and Cautious Optimism are both legitimate reactions. 

    • #87
  28. Franco Member
    Franco
    @Franco

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    So I’m hopeful something comes out of this, its too soon to judge either way.

    I do have to say this: is anyone else sickened to see our flag flying next to, and on parity with, the flag for one of the vilest nations in the world? It just rubs me the wrong way.

    I’m really not. I don’t share Valiuth’s view that we lack the moral high ground vis-a-vis North Korea, but evil or not, it is a nation. And it has nuclear weapons. I don’t think we have the luxury of taking the posture that they’re too contemptible to talk to. It would be nice if we could, but that’s just not the real world. The flags at a summit just say “you’re an equal in that we’re both nation states on this planet” not “you’re an equal in that your system is morally equivalent to ours.”

    I recognize all of that, and it still rubs me the wrong way. I recognize this is entirely emotional, but that flag, our flag, stands for something truly amazing. It’s special, it’s not just the flag of any other nation.

    I’m sure somewhere on these pages you can point to where you said something similar about flag burning and the NFL players standing for the anthem. 

    Do you feel the same way about our flag flying with China or Saudi Arabia? Or, maybe… Israel?

    • #88
  29. I Walton Member
    I Walton
    @IWalton

    Cato Rand (View Comment):
    You have more confidence in Trump and his team than I do. I fervently hope this works out, but that Trump could be played, even willingly, seems well within the bounds of the possible here.

    Saying we’ll have to wait and see and asking for no more than an opening is hardly a marching band endorsement, but there were no senior people in the Obama Administration with real foreign policy experience, and a lot that lived in the delusional or opportunistic  ( I never know which) world of our hard left.   In contrast almost everyone surrounding President Trump has long, deep and hard nosed experience.   I thought his press conference was just right.  We’ve given up nothing and have already gotten movement.  Moreover, Kim only knows Trump from his bad hostile press and from Chinese intelligence sources, do you think that he’d seriously believe that a bunch of phony gestures will get him enduring concessions or that in Trump’s face violations of anything agreed to would be clever tactics? 

    • #89
  30. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    Jamie Lockett (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    rgbact (View Comment):

    Looks like lots of fanfare for a deal thats worse than even Bill Clinton or George W had agreed to in the past. Seeing Trump slobber all of the NK despot just makes me appreciate how awesome it was that Reagan stood up to and defeated the Soviets, especially since appeasement is really popular with the public, and even many conservatives.

    The thing is, there isn’t a deal yet. Just a mutual commitment to work toward one. That might be nothing, I don’t know. One of the key items to keep an eye on in negotiations is who benefits from delay. So maybe NoKo’s whole nuclear program imploded when that mountain did and this is Kim playing (successfully) for time. That’s one possibility and in that scenario, Trump is being played just like Clinton and Bush were. Or maybe Kim is a new generation and a guy who sees what’s outside his borders and wants to be part of it, and these are the first, slow, tentative steps toward a freer North Korea and a peaceful peninsula. That’s another possibility and in that scenario, Trump is a great statesman and Nobel winner for seeing the opportunity and seizing it. Do you know which it is? Because I honestly don’t.

    I think at this point Cautious Skepticism and Cautious Optimism are both legitimate reactions.

    I’m not even sure they’re different reactions.  They’re certainly not mutually exclusive.

    • #90
Become a member to join the conversation. Or sign in if you're already a member.