Anyone Here Concerned About Hungarian Nationalism?

 

One year ago, I visited Hungary for about two weeks. We started and ended our visit in Budapest, which in my opinion possesses the most uplifting siting of all the great European cities. Lots of stone and concrete like all the others, but those aspects are dwarfed by the natural surroundings—the rugged and green Gellert Hill that frames the west side of the city, and the broad, serene Danube River flowing gently through the center of it, providing a big sky and an abundance of light. On a sunny spring day, one cannot help but feel liberated.

We hired an excellent driver/guide who took us to outlying areas throughout the country. I won’t detail the countryside here, but simply note an old-world pride apparent from our interaction with Hungarians of various walks of life. “Bucolic” would be an exaggeration as a blanket statement, but the term is certainly fitting for some of the places we visited.

Likewise, it would be an exaggeration to generalize the character of a country’s people based on the sincerity, integrity, and open-minded character of the few people that we got to know quite well. That said, I can tell you that I sensed a true patriotism—a pride in their nation—tempered with humility in acknowledgement of the serial social, political, and economic disasters that Hungary has endured.

A young man that I got to know quite well in Budapest spoke cheerfully of his sweetheart back home in the countryside who he visits most weekends and hopes to marry once he establishes a more stable economic foundation. Our “young” 70-year-old entrepreneurial guide designed our countryside tour around our requests and added extensive knowledge of his native history and culture to our journey for our satisfaction. These two industrious men never met each other but they share a common love for their resilient cultural traditions along with a hint of concern for the future of Hungary.

Although I don’t follow Hungarian politics, I occasionally hear vague tidbits from American pundits concerned about right-wing tendencies in Hungary and Poland. These concerns are never explained with specificity. And, while I have no reason to doubt the accusers, my experiences in Hungary tend to buffer (perhaps wrongly) any sense of urgency to dig deeper. I welcome any and all remedial input from Ricochet readers.

The following excerpts from transcripts of a recently aired interview strike me as quite reasonable, even though the speaker is not someone often quoted here. I’d like to know your thoughts on this whether you agree, disagree, or wish to break it down point by point. Just for fun, let’s keep the speaker anonymous for now. Dr. Google can provide an instant answer, but we conservatives are more interested in the content of arguments than the identity of the speaker, right?

What we see in Hungary, and in Poland, is a desire to maintain their national identity, ethnic identity, religious identity, historic identity, as who and what they are.

If the E.U. is simply a trade agreement, fine. But if it is to create some trans-national institution, some new identity, that can only be done, eventually, by the annihilation of the old identity, which Poland and Hungary and trying to preserve.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

You get a nation like Hungary—ten million Hungarians, overwhelmingly most of them Hungarian. If you bring in four or five million Arabs or Islamic people like they’ve got in France, Hungary ceases to be what it is and what it wants to be. It is a nation-state established for a particular people. … To me, these things are far more important than the small-D democracy idea that we’re all going to be under some global government, or trans-national government, which is going to rule us and make decisions from Brussels.

If the Hungarian people want to establish basically, an illiberal democracy, or whatever you want to call it, the purpose of which is to preserve their nation and people and country, that’s their business. And I don’t know why we would want to impose something else upon them.

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  1. Guruforhire Inactive
    Guruforhire
    @Guruforhire

    So the inherent self-determinative right of all peoples applies to eastern European countries too?

    They have good cause having been part of the USSR.

    • #1
  2. AltarGirl Inactive
    AltarGirl
    @CM

    I’m a self-described nationalist.

    It is their country, they get to do with it what they want. It is amazing that they have leaders who put their own nation before others. Shocking, really.

    If others leave them alone, they will leave others alone. Why the concern? This isn’t Germany trying to take over all the Germanic states around it to form a Germanic Empire. This is Hungary and Poland exercising a nationally collective right to their own nation, own country, own people, own culture, and own faith.

    And for what it’s worth, the German and French led EU trying to force Hungary to do their bidding is far more troublesome of Superemacy and empiricism than Hungary closing its borders.

    • #2
  3. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    I can’t remember who said this, I believe it was referring to Poland, and EU pressure. I’ll paraphrase it:

    They were not impressed with the old totalitarians, and they are not impressed with the new totalitarians.

    When Hungary, Poland, Ukraine, and the Baltic States invade Russia will be the day that I worry about their nationalism. The EU, and pundits should spend their time worrying about Russian nationalism.

    • #3
  4. AltarGirl Inactive
    AltarGirl
    @CM

    Doug Watt (View Comment):
    Russian nationalism.

    It isn’t nationalism that is the problem. It is an expansionist and imperialist mindset that is the problem.

    Russia is allowed it’s nationalism, too. Blame the right ideological problem.

    • #4
  5. CarolJoy Coolidge
    CarolJoy
    @CarolJoy

    It is enjoyable to read your account of this visit. Nice to know there are still pockets of the world that are less modernized.

    The Hungarian people are not into the current meme of  “to be a good nation with good people, it is necessary to take in ‘just a few’ refugees from the wars in the Middle East.”

    I am sure many in European nations where the citizens had this policy foisted on them actually now admire how the Hungarian nation exempted itself from the madness. But the “liberal” press around the world lets us all know that this exemption is tantamount to a people having within themselves a strong Hitler element, because, well, you know Hitler.

    Everyone I know who has had the good fortune to visit Hungary has tales like yours. I hope to get over there myself someday.

    • #5
  6. RushBabe49 Thatcher
    RushBabe49
    @RushBabe49

    The instinct for self-preservation is strong.  I’m all for nation-states fighting to preserve their status in the face of the EU’s promotion of the “suicide of the West” represented by the welcoming of millions of Muslim “refugees”.

    On a lighter note, in 1996 the Everett Symphony spent a day in Budapest on our way back from our trip to Vienna.  A friend and I spent a pleasant day walking around the city, guided by a friend from Seattle who happened to be studying there.  If you ever want to feel totally lost, spend time in Budapest without an English-speaking guide.  The Hungarian language bears NO relationship to any other language you have ever heard, and signs look like just gibberish.

    • #6
  7. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    AltarGirl (View Comment):

    It isn’t nationalism that is the problem. It is an expansionist and imperialist mindset that is the problem.

     

    Russians got their share of this from the French and the Germans a while back.

    • #7
  8. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    There’s nothing wrong with national pride, and resisting imperious EU directives. Orban is not a fascist: he doesn’t encourage or organize political violence and isn’t drumming up enthusiasm for invading other countries. There’s a free press, although the government puts a heavy thumb on the scales. 

    But I am getting concerned that the anti-Soros campaign scapegoats the country’s problems, and is becoming tinged with anti-semitism, the deadly vice of that part of the world (remember, Hungary voluntarily joined Hitler’s Axis before WWII). Not much more than a century ago, if the harvest failed, angry farmers believed the Jews put a curse on the crops. So it’s more than a theoretical worry. 

    • #8
  9. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Gary McVey (View Comment):
    But I am getting concerned that the anti-Soros campaign scapegoats the country’s problems, and is becoming tinged with anti-semitism, the deadly vice of that part of the world (remember, Hungary voluntarily joined Hitler’s Axis before WWII). Not much more than a century ago, if the harvest failed, angry farmers believed the Jews put a curse on the crops. So it’s more than a theoretical worry. 

    Not quite following this point? I have been under the impression that anti-semitism was flourishing in the EU Leadership countries of Germany and France. Am I wrong about this?

    • #9
  10. Guruforhire Inactive
    Guruforhire
    @Guruforhire

    Gary McVey (View Comment):
    But I am getting concerned that the anti-Soros campaign scapegoats the country’s problems, and is becoming tinged with anti-semitism,

    Even Netanyahu is giving that one the whatever eye roll.

    • #10
  11. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):
    But I am getting concerned that the anti-Soros campaign scapegoats the country’s problems, and is becoming tinged with anti-semitism, the deadly vice of that part of the world (remember, Hungary voluntarily joined Hitler’s Axis before WWII). Not much more than a century ago, if the harvest failed, angry farmers believed the Jews put a curse on the crops. So it’s more than a theoretical worry.

    Not quite following this point? I have been under the impression that anti-semitism was flourishing in the EU Leadership countries of Germany and France. Am I wrong about this?

    Yes. The parts of those countries that now hate Jews are unassimilated Muslim immigrants. Antisemitism doesn’t “flourish” among the natives anymore. 1933-45 taught a few lessons. 

    • #11
  12. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):
    But I am getting concerned that the anti-Soros campaign scapegoats the country’s problems, and is becoming tinged with anti-semitism, the deadly vice of that part of the world (remember, Hungary voluntarily joined Hitler’s Axis before WWII). Not much more than a century ago, if the harvest failed, angry farmers believed the Jews put a curse on the crops. So it’s more than a theoretical worry.

    Not quite following this point? I have been under the impression that anti-semitism was flourishing in the EU Leadership countries of Germany and France. Am I wrong about this?

    Yes. The parts of those countries that now hate Jews are unassimilated Muslim immigrants. Antisemitism doesn’t “flourish” among the natives anymore. 1933-45 taught a few lessons.

    Are these countries or the EU leadership taking action against this development among unassimilated Muslims? This makes it fairly clear that Muslims hate Jews whether the Jews have taken their land or not, huh?

     

    • #12
  13. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    Gary McVey (View Comment):
    But I am getting concerned that the anti-Soros campaign scapegoats the country’s problems, and is becoming tinged with anti-semitism, the deadly vice of that part of the world (remember, Hungary voluntarily joined Hitler’s Axis before WWII). Not much more than a century ago, if the harvest failed, angry farmers believed the Jews put a curse on the crops. So it’s more than a theoretical worry.

    Not quite following this point? I have been under the impression that anti-semitism was flourishing in the EU Leadership countries of Germany and France. Am I wrong about this?

    Yes. The parts of those countries that now hate Jews are unassimilated Muslim immigrants. Antisemitism doesn’t “flourish” among the natives anymore. 1933-45 taught a few lessons.

    Are these countries or the EU leadership taking action against this development among unassimilated Muslims? This makes it fairly clear that Muslims hate Jews whether the Jews have taken their land or not, huh?

    I don’t think anyone here doubts that Muslims have a problem with Jew-hatred. My point was that a number of Christian countries have a chronic problem with it, too, however we wish they didn’t. 

     

    • #13
  14. Chuck Enfield Inactive
    Chuck Enfield
    @ChuckEnfield

    rico: What we see in Hungary, and in Poland, is a desire to maintain their national identity, ethnic identity, religious identity, historic identity, as who and what they are.

    National identity, religious identity, and ethnic identity are very different things in most countries. I don’t mind nationalism in theory, but in practice it takes tends to take very ugly forms.  So if Hungarian nationalism really is about a national identity and remains confined to the borders of Hungary, I’m fine with it.  It’s the sort of thing that binds the people of a nation together and makes them a stronger social unit. However, the Hungarian nationalism of the 19th and early 20th centuries was about Magyar ethnicity.  Ethnic pride is fine, but it can’t unite a multi-ethnic culture.  When that pride turns into a movement, it can only be inflammatory, and usually leads to violence.  It should not be encouraged.

    • #14
  15. Randy Webster Inactive
    Randy Webster
    @RandyWebster

    Chuck Enfield (View Comment):
    Ethnic pride is fine, but it can’t unite a multi-ethnic culture.

    I assume you aren’t referring to Hungary here.  I understand that it’s mostly a Magyar culture.

    • #15
  16. Chuck Enfield Inactive
    Chuck Enfield
    @ChuckEnfield

    Randy Webster (View Comment):

    Chuck Enfield (View Comment):
    Ethnic pride is fine, but it can’t unite a multi-ethnic culture.

    I assume you aren’t referring to Hungary here. I understand that it’s mostly a Magyar culture.

    As western countries go it’s pretty homogeneous, but it’s only about 85% Magyar.  The “others” are roughly equivalent to the population of Budapest. That’s a few too many to ignore.

    I don’t think diversity should be a goal, but in most western countries it’s a reality.  That makes ethno-nationalism problematic. 

    • #16
  17. Doug Watt Member
    Doug Watt
    @DougWatt

    AltarGirl (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):
    Russian nationalism.

    It isn’t nationalism that is the problem. It is an expansionist and imperialist mindset that is the problem.

    Russia is allowed it’s nationalism, too. Blame the right ideological problem.

    Unfortunately the Russians have no respect for borders, except for the borders they recognize. If a Russian lives in Poland then Poland belongs to Russia.

     

    • #17
  18. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    AltarGirl (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):
    Russian nationalism.

    It isn’t nationalism that is the problem. It is an expansionist and imperialist mindset that is the problem.

    Russia is allowed it’s nationalism, too. Blame the right ideological problem.

    Unfortunately the Russians have no respect for borders, except for the borders they recognize. If a Russian lives in Poland then Poland belongs to Russia.

    A lot of this going around. It takes many different forms.

     

     

    • #18
  19. AltarGirl Inactive
    AltarGirl
    @CM

    Doug Watt (View Comment):

    AltarGirl (View Comment):

    Doug Watt (View Comment):
    Russian nationalism.

    It isn’t nationalism that is the problem. It is an expansionist and imperialist mindset that is the problem.

    Russia is allowed it’s nationalism, too. Blame the right ideological problem.

    Unfortunately the Russians have no respect for borders, except for the borders they recognize. If a Russian lives in Poland then Poland belongs to Russia.

     

    Yes, but that isn’t a fault of nationalism, but imperialism justified by a passive colonialism.

    We can talk merits/demerits of ideologies without conflation, right?

    Oyen’s objections are more solidly placed at the feet of nationalism than this or the previous comment I was responding to.

    • #19
  20. dnewlander Inactive
    dnewlander
    @dnewlander

    Bob Thompson (View Comment):

    AltarGirl (View Comment):

    It isn’t nationalism that is the problem. It is an expansionist and imperialist mindset that is the problem.

    Russians got their share of this from the French and the Germans a while back.

    Many times. Only for about 70 years they were called “Prussians”. Germans got pretty used to marching down the Avenue des Champs-Élysées.

    As original hipsters, they loved the irony.

    • #20
  21. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    rico:

     

    Dr. Google can provide an instant answer, but we conservatives are more interested in the content of arguments than the identity of the speaker, right?

    What we see in Hungary, and in Poland, is a desire to maintain their national identity, ethnic identity, religious identity, historic identity, as who and what they are.

    It’s not like the Holocaust dropped from the sky.  

    • #21
  22. Hypatia Member
    Hypatia
    @

    Am I concerned about Hungarian nationalism? Yes! Concerned that they won’t hold the line.  They have their Wall: may it stand as an example to the world. 

    “Yea, even though the Earth be moved 

    We will not be afraid!” 

    • #22
  23. Lazy_Millennial Inactive
    Lazy_Millennial
    @LazyMillennial

    Michael Brendan Dougherty is an excellent pundit to follow on Hungary, at NRO and on Twitter. He actually believes Eastern Europeans should have self-government, whereas most commentators dismiss any deviation from the EU line as fascism rising. He’s also not blindly supportive, and willing to call out these countries when they actually show bad developments. 

    Here he is in January, defending Poland’s judicial reforms

    Here he is in March, noticing actual anti-semitic language from Hungary’s Orban, who has been baselessly accused of the anti-semitism for years. 

    • #23
  24. Hypatia Member
    Hypatia
    @

    I don’t think anti-semitism is caused by nationalism.  It is a very ancient hatred, found everywhere and in all times and places since Abraham’s day.  That’s a red herring here.  Hungary suffered a century and a half of Muslim domination.  ( oh, yeah, I know: history doesn’t count, at all, unless you wanna castigate the US..)   They don’t want to be overrun again. 

    • #24
  25. EODmom Coolidge
    EODmom
    @EODmom

    Hypatia (View Comment):

    Am I concerned about Hungarian nationalism? Yes! Concerned that they won’t hold the line. They have their Wall: may it stand as an example to the world.

    “Yea, even though the Earth be moved

    We will not be afraid!”

    And I’ll bet there are many still living who remember when the rest of the West ignored their cries for help in 1956. They have reason to think they are on their own. As do the Poles. 

    • #25
  26. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Hypatia (View Comment):

    I don’t think anti-semitism is caused by nationalism. It is a very ancient hatred, found everywhere and in all times and places since Abraham’s day. That’s a red herring here. Hungary suffered a century and a half of Muslim domination. ( oh, yeah, I know: history doesn’t count, at all, unless you wanna castigate the US..) They don’t want to be overrun again.

    Can this same idea by applied to much of Russia’s approach to the West since they were overrun in the past by French and German imperialists?

    • #26
  27. Percival Thatcher
    Percival
    @Percival

    When the EU consisted of the Common Market, it worked pretty well. There is a tendency when a system works well to tweak it in order to improve it. This frequently works.

    There is a closely related tendency to enthusiastically bolt on additional capabilities and responsibilities to such a system. This usually ends in a train wreck.

    Nothing that any EU-phile has said in the last ten years has convinced me to buy stock in their railroad.

    • #27
  28. Chuck Enfield Inactive
    Chuck Enfield
    @ChuckEnfield

    Lazy_Millennial (View Comment):

    Michael Brendan Dougherty is an excellent pundit to follow on Hungary, at NRO and on Twitter. He actually believes Eastern Europeans should have self-government, whereas most commentators dismiss any deviation from the EU line as fascism rising. He’s also not blindly supportive, and willing to call out these countries when they actually show bad developments.

    Here he is in January, defending Poland’s judicial reforms

    Here he is in March, noticing actual anti-semitic language from Hungary’s Orban, who has been baselessly accused of the anti-semitism for years.

    Hungary came up between Michael and Jonah Goldberg on yesterday’s Remnant podcast.

    • #28
  29. Bob Thompson Member
    Bob Thompson
    @BobThompson

    Percival (View Comment):

    When the EU consisted of the Common Market, it worked pretty well. There is a tendency when a system works well to tweak it in order to improve it. This frequently works.

    There is a closely related tendency to enthusiastically bolt on additional capabilities and responsibilities to such a system. This usually end in a train wreck.

    Nothing that any EU-phile has said in the last ten years has convinced me to buy stock in their railroad.

    This same phenomenon is what has taken place in Washington.

    • #29
  30. Chuck Enfield Inactive
    Chuck Enfield
    @ChuckEnfield

    Hypatia (View Comment):

    I don’t think anti-semitism is caused by nationalism. It is a very ancient hatred, found everywhere and in all times and places since Abraham’s day. That’s a red herring here.

    You’re certainly correct that antisemitism is ancient, but I don’t think I agree that it’s a red herring.  For most of that history, religious animosity was an equal opportunity form of hatred.  Everybody hated everybody else, the only question was how much power the various sects could muster to do anything about it.  Historically, tolerance was rarely the result of an enlightened attitude.  It was far more likely to be a result of political, economic, or military conditions.  “I’ll tolerate you only if it’s against my interest to get rid of you,” was the rule of the day.

    In the last few centuries the greatest organized oppression and violence against Jews has accompanied ethno-nationalist movements.  Of course, the violence hasn’t been limited to Jews, as Ukrainians and Armenians will attest, so it’s easy to overplay the Jewish factor.  That’s why I try to focus on how much ethno there is in any particular brand of nationalism.

    Hungary suffered a century and a half of Muslim domination. ( oh, yeah, I know: history doesn’t count, at all, unless you wanna castigate the US..) They don’t want to be overrun again.

    Countries should do what they please when it comes to immigration policy.  Aside from direct effects on US national interests, I can’t think of any policy enacted by any country for any reason that would disturb me terribly if it only affects who can and cannot enter that country.  As a proponent of civilization, however, I can’t help but care what policies countries have toward their citizens and legal residents.  I’m not too worked up about Hungarian nationalism at the moment, but some of the rhetoric suggests cause for concern.  Talk is just talk until it isn’t.  We’ll see how things develop.

    • #30
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