Is Christianity Rejected Because It’s a “Low Status” Signifier?

 

I came across this intriguing post from Patheos’ site. The thesis is that in the aftermath of such things as the Scopes monkey trial, being a Christian has become a marker of low status, and that this explains both its decline and lack of appeal as well as the failure of attempts to “engage the culture” by making it appear hip.

The idea behind the “engaging the culture” movement was that, rather than withdrawing from the surrounding culture as their fundamentalist cousins did, evangelicals should go forth to meet it. The expected outcome of this going forth was a revival of Christian faith.

It sort of makes sense. If enough evangelicals, the idea was, could be trained to engage the surrounding culture, especially in the culture-making arenas of politics, education and the media, eventually these well-placed agents of change could turn things around.

What this plan never took into account is the dynamics of social status. Evangelicals sought to engage the culture by being relevant, by creating works of art, by offering good arguments for their positions. None of these addressed the real problem: that Christian belief simply isn’t cool, and that very few people want to lower their social status by identifying publicly with it.

I suspect that there is some truth to it. Your thoughts?

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  1. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    Majestyk (View Comment):

    AltarGirl (View Comment):

    I wasn’t asking you to be impressed or convinced.

    I merely ask for a bit of humility in your own abilities to assess truth based on evidence.

    It is that very provision of evidence which seems to be the rub.

    I think – and AlterGirl correct me if I’m wrong — but I think her point is that all “knowledge” is merely a function of evaluating probabilities based on incomplete evidence – sometimes more incomplete, sometimes less so.  I think she’d further claim that the evidence for god is better than the evidence for many things we believe and take for granted.  I’m with you Maj, and disagree with her on that point.  But I think that was something like her point.  

    • #61
  2. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
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    Cato Rand (View Comment):
    I think this is a straw man. Believing those things may be a motivation, without it being a precondition. Unreligious people do good things all the time, and religious people do lousy things all the time. This isn’t black or white. But when a church builds an hospital and funds health services for the poor, all the while claiming that they feel called to do so by their faith, I see no reason to disbelieve them.

    I don’t see a reason to disbelieve their stated reasons either, but the question in my mind is: why aren’t perfectly sensible and explicable reasons perfectly satisfactory?  The supernatural beliefs don’t add anything, I guess.

    • #62
  3. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    Majestyk (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):
    I think this is a straw man. Believing those things may be a motivation, without it being a precondition. Unreligious people do good things all the time, and religious people do lousy things all the time. This isn’t black or white. But when a church builds an hospital and funds health services for the poor, all the while claiming that they feel called to do so by their faith, I see no reason to disbelieve them.

    I don’t see a reason to disbelieve their stated reasons either, but the question in my mind is: why aren’t perfectly sensible and explicable reasons perfectly satisfactory? The supernatural beliefs don’t add anything, I guess.

    I guess because “reasons” are subjective, internal things, and one of the big pieces of evidence we have for their existence is self reporting.  So when someone self-reports their reasons for doing something, I tend to credit that self-report unless I see evidence of disingenuousness.  I don’t see that in most of the day to day good works done by a lot of Christians who claim a faith based motivation for them.

    • #63
  4. AltarGirl Member
    AltarGirl
    @CM

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Majestyk (View Comment):

    AltarGirl (View Comment):

    I wasn’t asking you to be impressed or convinced.

    I merely ask for a bit of humility in your own abilities to assess truth based on evidence.

    It is that very provision of evidence which seems to be the rub.

    I think – and AlterGirl correct me if I’m wrong — but I think her point is that all “knowledge” is merely a function of evaluating probabilities based on incomplete evidence – sometimes more incomplete, sometimes less so. I think she’d further claim that the evidence for god is better than the evidence for many things we believe and take for granted. I’m with you Maj, and disagree with her on that point. But I think that was something like her point.

    Thank you :)

    • #64
  5. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    AltarGirl (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Majestyk (View Comment):

    AltarGirl (View Comment):

    I wasn’t asking you to be impressed or convinced.

    I merely ask for a bit of humility in your own abilities to assess truth based on evidence.

    It is that very provision of evidence which seems to be the rub.

    I think – and AlterGirl correct me if I’m wrong — but I think her point is that all “knowledge” is merely a function of evaluating probabilities based on incomplete evidence – sometimes more incomplete, sometimes less so. I think she’d further claim that the evidence for god is better than the evidence for many things we believe and take for granted. I’m with you Maj, and disagree with her on that point. But I think that was something like her point.

    Thank you :)

    You’re welcome.  By the way, my disagreement with you isn’t on the question of whether we believe a lot of things based on incomplete evidence.  Clearly we do.  Heck, sometimes we later learn that we were just plain way off base in some belief too.  Other times we believe things that maybe our great grandchildren will discover were nutty even though they seemed perfectly obvious to us in our day.  Such is the way of life.  I just don’t see as much evidence for god as you apparently do.

    • #65
  6. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Kate Braestrup (View Comment):
    I’ve often thought that @Spin‘s point about class-related anxieties explains why Unitarian-Universalism remains a middle-upper-middle class denomination. It’s not that the congregants are actually smarter or better (sigh) but they are generally well-educated and so have, in general, daily lives that reaffirm their personal agency and worth.

    Yes. I know how hated the p-word is around here, but supposing eschatological longings ought to be treated as merely a distraction is, in a sense, a form of privilege. It’s one thing to not have eschatological longings yourself – vive la difference – but the judgment that those who have them would probably be better off without them is pretty condescending.

    Robert Nozick created the concept of “utility monster”. Many of us are closer to “disutility monsters”, though: when the idea of life is confined to the realm of biological activity, we simply do not get enough utility out of life (nor do we, in our judgment, provide enough utility to others) to justify our social obligation to live. Developing an eschatological intuition, of life-beyond-life, at least creates meaning we cannot find in life-as-biology. Don’t get me wrong, I love the biological sciences! Intellectually, how biological organisms work is awesome! The experience of being a biological organism, though? Meh. It’s inhabiting a walking corpse.

    I was born into much of the privilege many Unitarians are born into, a privilege which usually includes plenty of medical and social support for physical infirmities: people expect their (and others’) infirmities to be well-managed so as to preserve personal agency and worth. However, even among the privileged, physical infirmities are sometimes mis-identified, or otherwise mismanaged in a way which undermines personal agency and worth. If others expect me to keep living this biological life, they should accept I might need an eschatology to do so. I imagine that millions of people less privileged than I am could be in the same boat.

    Moreover, the conservative ethos is quite karmic – conservatives believe in the Copybook Gods of Consequences. But even an idiot can see that Consequences don’t render just payment in this life. Consequently (heh), we must either weaken our belief in the Copybook Gods (something it is socially unacceptable for conservatives to do, though that doesn’t stop some of us), or we can resort to the expediency of positing karmic effects which go beyond this life into some eschatological vision.

    • #66
  7. Quake Voter Inactive
    Quake Voter
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    Majestyk (View Comment):

    Quake Voter (View Comment):

    But look at all the primitive superstitions which are held in high esteem, or at least discussed with indulgence, amongst the social elites, Cato. Yoga and horoscopy are widely practiced, and with much more spiritual investment than you find in rec center stretching sessions or Jean Dixonish tabloids.

    Looking for a primitive superstition developed to gain elite social control? How about Buddhism? The amount of time, money and moral energy spent on guru-led spiritual cures by elite Americans, many of whom express contempt for primitive Christianity, is quite telling.

    When Buckley noted you would not be invited back after mentioning God twice at a dinner party, it was clear he meant the Christian God. Most other gods have a standing invitation.

    The low status of biblical Christianity in many parts of America has little to do with its non-rational priors.

    I hold them all in equal, low esteem. Eastern mysticism is an affect of certain hoity-toities who deserve a swirlie.

    In fairness, the OP, the article referenced and my point (the lesser of the three) don’t address the esteem from libertarians or atheist conservatives but the low status of biblical Christianity in American society, which is sadly immune from libertarian and atheist conservative critiques as well.  That low status has little to nothing to do with the non-rational basis of Christianity, evident from the predominance of entire systems of leftist belief which are far less credible and distant from observable confirmation than Original Sin, in my opinion.

    • #67
  8. Quake Voter Inactive
    Quake Voter
    @QuakeVoter

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake (View Comment):
    It’s easier to treat exotic spiritual practices as not really true, but effective for certain human needs nonetheless. It’s a sort of National Geographic syndrome: the quaint customs of benighted foreigners need be no more than quaint, and they don’t have to be taken seriously in order for enlightened people to extract the good from them while dismissing the backwards aspects as not really necessary anyhow.

    Like Unitarians?  :-)  [Sorry I was typing out this gentle joke before reading your comment above]

    • #68
  9. Sabrdance Member
    Sabrdance
    @Sabrdance

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake (View Comment):

    TeamAmerica (View Comment):

    @Midget Faded Rattlesnake- You said “I did not find it so in academia, although perhaps I was lucky.” However you didn’t say what decade this occurred.

    The 200_s. So not yesterday, but not all that long ago, either. I attended evangelical bible studies (though a mainline church) while in college, and while I wasn’t 100% your typical evangelical belief-wise, my beliefs were close enough to fit in. It was on things incidental to the faith (like choice of worship music, opinion on evolution) where I felt a little like a fish out of water among evangelicals.

    If you look at the treatment of the Little Sisters of the Poor, of Larry Summer at Harvard, of Condoleeza Rice at Rutgers etc., we see that our elites are trained to be intolerant post modernists.

    I’m not sure how much postmodernism in itself has to do with it. There are Christian postmodernists and PoMoCons (postmodern conservatives) – and I think it’s pretty normal for PoMoCons to be Christian traditionalists. Though it’s possible “postmodern”, like “evangelical”, is often used as a class marker rather than a label for actual beliefs.

    Amy Schley (View Comment):

    I have quite literally been told by a boss I was too smart to be a believer. If that doesn’t serve as an example of the disdain Christians are held in, I’m not sure what does.

    Yes, that happens. But in my experience, cultured respect for the Christian story happened, too. Admittedly, that kind of respect requires cultural literacy, and there are a lot of cultural illiterates these days.

    I was a student back then, and I’ve been a professor since 2012.  It appears to have gotten worse, fast, and even in 2009 it wasn’t great (which was the year I witnessed the first religious cashiering).  I’m at a relatively religion friendly school, and while I don’t make a secret of it, being a Baptist who takes the religion seriously is not something I advertise, either.  Several faculty feel quite free to disparage the religion of their co-workers and their students, openly, in public, in ways that I wouldn’t feel safe opposing in private.

    It’s marginally worse for conservative academics.  I try not to think about whether it is cumulative.

    • #69
  10. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    I wish there were a word (and perhaps there is) that described an intellectual space between “accepting a particular version of a set of facts as stated to be exactly true” and “belief,” meaning “faith.”

    I’m reading C. S. Lewis’s Mere Christianity. I think people whose thoughts are in that particular no man’s land (people like me) are the people he is addressing in this book. I am enjoying every word of it. He is the most gracious and unassuming explainer of Christianity I have ever come across.

    I believe in the statement of facts that are expressed in the Apostles’ Creed, but it is hard for me to take literally much else that I read in the Bible. It is my nature to be skeptical. If it is true as described, then thank God for God. It was a brutal existence for humanity. Who would want to live in ancient times? Not I. We were a young people. Mozart could not have survived in that brutal culture.

    I guess this is where priests, rabbis, and ministers are so critically important. They create a bridge between the archaic language and symbolism and culture described in the Bible and the readers of the Bible two thousand years after it was written. Having the messages in the Bible translated for modern minds and cultures is critical for the survival of Christianity.

    • #70
  11. Gary McVey Contributor
    Gary McVey
    @GaryMcVey

    The odd semi-religious things referred to here–yoga, etc.–as well as tiny groups of actual religion Buddhists–are not very popular even here in southern California. By “very popular”, I’m being literal; they make for good gags on TV shows, but are actually practiced by vastly fewer people than go to church. 

    In the northern part of Santa Monica, California Avenue has many mainline churches and the town’s largest Catholic church. They are all pretty full on Sunday. But in my neighborhood to the south of there, the blocks are spotted with a scattering of tiny Protestant churches, mostly built in the early boom days, 1920-1950, and most are barely holding on. There are three of them within four blocks of here. They were built before parking became a necessity, before social centers and schools were commonly attached to churches, and I suspect in many cases were a midwestern denomination’s attempt to look after their brethren who’d moved to the Coast, like the Church of God of Anderson, Indiana. 

    Why are they empty? Lots of reasons, I’m sure, but I’d look for the cause in these words “Men are as Gods”. Life in the pre-modern age was dominated by fear and fate. Terrible things happened and not much could be done about it. Nowadays, we’ve managed to make life safer, richer and less cruel. People are less inclined to look to divine help. 

    • #71
  12. Quake Voter Inactive
    Quake Voter
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    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Quake Voter (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):
    I think there’s something to this but don’t underestimate the fact that for many of us, the eschatology is just simply not intellectually compelling. It is unevidenced and has all the look, feel and smell of both primitive superstition and a narrative developed by an elite to gain and maintain social control.

    But look at all the primitive superstitions which are held in high esteem, or at least discussed with indulgence, amongst the social elites, Cato. Yoga and horoscopy are widely practiced, and with much more spiritual investment than you find in rec center stretching sessions or Jean Dixonish tabloids.

    Looking for a primitive superstition developed to gain elite social control? How about Buddhism? The amount of time, money and moral energy spent on guru-led spiritual cures by elite Americans, many of whom express contempt for primitive Christianity, is quite telling.

    When Buckley noted you would not be invited back after mentioning God twice at a dinner party, it was clear he meant the Christian God. Most other gods have a standing invitation.

    The low status of biblical Christianity in many parts of America has little to do with its non-rational priors.

    I’m mostly in agreement with this. Certainly I agree about the yoga, horoscope, crystals, essential oils, nonsense. Its as much gibberish to me as Christianity is (and god help me, I get a lot of it from my in-laws so I know whereof I speak). The only quibble I’d have is with how well all of it is tolerated in polite society. In my experience that new age nonsense is slightly less welcome than you seem to think it is, and Christianity is slightly less unwelcome than you seem to believe, though I’d probably concede your point that as between the two, Christianity is the usually the more unwelcome. I guess the other quibble is that broad generalizations like this (yours or mine) inevitably over generalize. I’m not sure we could discuss this subject though without tolerating a little over generalization though.

    [Edit: I didn’t mean to knock yoga as an exercise practice or strength building activity. I’ve done it and rather like it and certainly see a health value in it. It’s the attribution of mystical powers to it that I find nonsensical.]

    I mostly agree with your mostly agree.  Sure, I’m presenting a counter cartoon.  New Age and older belief systems (including leftist variants on the perfectability of man) are held with varying sincerity and don’t enjoy universal respectability.  Sometimes they are bitterly opposed to one another in some settings.  In places, Dallas or Atlanta perhaps, a caustic aside about bible thumpers may earn you a comeuppance in polite society.  In a few places, Salt Lake City (though less than you might imagine), religiosity may enjoy a higher social status.

    Yet, in general, biblical Christianity is held in lower social esteem in America and the historical and social and psychosexual conditions which created and enforce this prejudice have little to do with its non-rational foundation.  Christianity as a broad cultural force has been replaced by belief systems which are almost incoherently non-rational (Pinker on human agency is more foolish than anything in the Bible).  Science is largely worshiped by those with little understanding of the field.

    • #72
  13. Sabrdance Member
    Sabrdance
    @Sabrdance

    On the topic of the OP -I’m not sure.  My view is complicated.  On the question of whether orthodoxy has fallen out of favor, the answer is obvious.  Of course it has.  Is that the result of elite derision?  I’m less certain.

    There are entire classes of people who don’t care about elite status -they are among the least religious in the US.  The most prominent in our neck of the woods are the White Working Class.  There has been no shortage of Evangelical outreach to the white working class, but I see little evidence it is working.  At least at my church (in the Bible Belt, I admit), our growth has largely come from college students and young families -the former at least are normally considered a first cut of the elite.  This is also true internationally -I am friends with a couple of missionaries in China, and they also see most of the response come from college students and young members of the Chinese Communist Party.  (And some, simultaneously horrific and hilarious theological debates about why you can’t have a secret baptism.)

    So while the cultural decline may come from the elite, the religious decline is not there.  Or if it is, the damage was done years ago, and those who were going to fall away under pressure already have.

    My own theory, from being in these “seeker friendly” churches, is that their main evangelism problem is that they offer a bait and switch.  They claim to have no doctrine, just love Jesus.  Then they reveal that they actually do have doctrine, and people leave.  Or, they maintain the claim that they have no doctrine, fall into heresy, and dissolve.  Even long-time Christians from orthodox backgrounds that fall in with some of these seeker friendly churches become so enamored of hanging out with the prostitutes and tax collectors, they decide to take up tax collecting and prostitution, and God understands they don’t go to church.

    If I may tie this to the nearby Jordan Peterson thread, I suspect much of the problem is that the people doing the outreach don’t believe their own platitudes.  They may be lying to themselves first, but you can’t be a prophet without conviction, and a lot of people lack conviction.

    Anyway, those are my thoughts.

    ***

    One point of order, Fundamentalists and Evangelicals aren’t the same -and the Scopes Trial was considered a great victory in Fundamentalist circles, probably well into the 19960s or even 1970s.  What undermined the Fundamentalists was the (massively inaccurate) play, Inherit the Wind.

    • #73
  14. The Reticulator Member
    The Reticulator
    @TheReticulator

    Spin (View Comment):
    I think what really turns the left away from Christianity is its individuality.

    I think it’s just the opposite. So there. 

    • #74
  15. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    MarciN (View Comment):

    I wish there were a word (and perhaps there is) that described an intellectual space between “accepting a particular version of a set of facts as stated to be exactly true” and “belief,” meaning “faith.”

    I’m reading C. S. Lewis’s Mere Christianity. I think people whose thoughts are in that particular no man’s land (people like me) are the people he is addressing in that book. I am enjoying every word of it. He is the most gracious and unassuming explainer of Christianity I have ever come across.

    I believe in the statement of facts that are expressed in the Apostles’ Creed, But it is hard for me to take literally much else that I read in the Bible…

    Treating the Apostle’s Creed as a statement of fact is pretty orthodoxly Christian. It’s even “accepting a particular version of a set of facts as stated to be exactly true”. That you don’t treat the entire Bible the same way just isn’t that much of a stumbling block. The Bible took a while to be canonized, and the first Christians believed without the Bible’s benefit. It is our book, containing material edifying to Christian belief. But Christians aren’t Christian because they believe the Bible. Instead, they believe the gist of “the big story” in the Bible because they are Christian.

    • #75
  16. David Foster Member
    David Foster
    @DavidFoster

    Quake Voter (View Comment):
    But look at all the primitive superstitions which are held in high esteem, or at least discussed with indulgence, amongst the social elites, Cato. Yoga and horoscopy are widely practiced, and with much more spiritual investment than you find in rec center stretching sessions or Jean Dixonish tabloids.

    Absolutely correct.  Today’s “progressives” are mostly not traditional all-that-exists-is-the-material-universe village-atheist types, they tend to be “spiritual but not religious” (in their own terminology) and believe in things a lot further out than alchemy…magical crystals, for example.

    • #76
  17. David Foster Member
    David Foster
    @DavidFoster

    Much of this hostility toward Christianity is part of a larger cluster of hostilities:  toward rural people, toward Southerners, toward people who lack college degrees…increasingly, people who lack *advanced* degrees.

    I discussed this phenomenon in my post The Phobia(s) That May Destroy American.

    • #77
  18. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake (View Comment):

    MarciN (View Comment):

    I wish there were a word (and perhaps there is) that described an intellectual space between “accepting a particular version of a set of facts as stated to be exactly true” and “belief,” meaning “faith.”

    I’m reading C. S. Lewis’s Mere Christianity. I think people whose thoughts are in that particular no man’s land (people like me) are the people he is addressing in that book. I am enjoying every word of it. He is the most gracious and unassuming explainer of Christianity I have ever come across.

    I believe in the statement of facts that are expressed in the Apostles’ Creed, But it is hard for me to take literally much else that I read in the Bible…

    Treating the Apostle’s Creed as a statement of fact is pretty orthodoxly Christian. It’s even “accepting a particular version of a set of facts as stated to be exactly true”. That you don’t treat the entire Bible the same way just isn’t that much of a stumbling block. The Bible took a while to be canonized, and the first Christians believed without the Bible’s benefit. It is our book, containing material edifying to Christian belief. But Christians aren’t Christian because they believe the Bible. Instead, they believe the gist of “the big story” in the Bible because they are Christian.

    Beautifully expressed. I like that. :-)

    I’m reading the “Let’s Pretend” chapter near the end of Mere Christianity. Lewis writes that there’s nothing quite as explicative of who we are and our relationship with God as the act of saying the Lord’s Prayer. Beginning with “Our Father,” I am only pretending to be that child of God that Christ actually was. :-) 

    • #78
  19. Quake Voter Inactive
    Quake Voter
    @QuakeVoter

    David Foster (View Comment):

    Much of this hostility toward Christianity is part of a larger cluster of hostilities: toward rural people, toward Southerners, toward people who lack college degrees…increasingly, people who lack *advanced* degrees.

    I discussed this phenomenon in my post The Phobia(s) That May Destroy American.

    You forgot people who watch Fox News.  Or listen to Rush.

    • #79
  20. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Member
    Midget Faded Rattlesnake
    @Midge

    Quake Voter (View Comment):

    David Foster (View Comment):

    Much of this hostility toward Christianity is part of a larger cluster of hostilities: toward rural people, toward Southerners, toward people who lack college degrees…increasingly, people who lack *advanced* degrees.

    I discussed this phenomenon in my post The Phobia(s) That May Destroy American.

    You forgot people who watch Fox News. Or listen to Rush.

    This relates again to religion-as-proxy-for-tribe, and how those in the ingroup typically can tolerate anything except the outgroup.

    • #80
  21. D.A. Venters Inactive
    D.A. Venters
    @DAVenters

    MarciN (View Comment):

    I wish there were a word (and perhaps there is) that described an intellectual space between “accepting a particular version of a set of facts as stated to be exactly true” and “belief,” meaning “faith.”

    I’m reading C. S. Lewis’s Mere Christianity. I think people whose thoughts are in that particular no man’s land (people like me) are the people he is addressing in this book. I am enjoying every word of it. He is the most gracious and unassuming explainer of Christianity I have ever come across.

    I believe in the statement of facts that are expressed in the Apostles’ Creed, but it is hard for me to take literally much else that I read in the Bible. It is my nature to be skeptical. If it is true as described, then thank God for God. It was a brutal existence for humanity. Who would want to live in ancient times? Not I. We were a young people. Mozart could not have survived in that brutal culture.

    I guess this is where priests, rabbis, and ministers are so critically important. They create a bridge between the archaic language and symbolism and culture described in the Bible and the readers of the Bible two thousand years after it was written. Having the messages in the Bible translated for modern minds and cultures is critical for the survival of Christianity.

    Mere Christianity and C.S. Lewis’s other various essays and books are very relevant to the issue discussed in the OP.  Lewis presents a case for Christianity that was really novel to me when I read it, though it should not have been.  I couldn’t believe, when I read it, that no one had suggested it before – when I was a teenager or in Sunday School.

    Looking back, I had grown a little arrogant in my dismissal of Christianity, and Lewis’s writing was very humbling.  Here was a guy who was 1) obviously much brighter than me, 2) had a far greater knowledge of philosophy and the history of human thought than I had, 3) had, at some point most all of the same objections to Christianity that I had, being a reluctant convert, and 4) made it clear that I was not as smart as I thought I was with respect to those objections.

    He made it clear that Christianity was a serious intellectual philosophy that I could not just dismiss as an ancient supersitition, wishful thinking, etc…

    • #81
  22. MarciN Member
    MarciN
    @MarciN

    D.A. Venters (View Comment):

    MarciN (View Comment):

    I wish there were a word (and perhaps there is) that described an intellectual space between “accepting a particular version of a set of facts as stated to be exactly true” and “belief,” meaning “faith.”

    I’m reading C. S. Lewis’s Mere Christianity. I think people whose thoughts are in that particular no man’s land (people like me) are the people he is addressing in this book. I am enjoying every word of it. He is the most gracious and unassuming explainer of Christianity I have ever come across.

    I believe in the statement of facts that are expressed in the Apostles’ Creed, but it is hard for me to take literally much else that I read in the Bible. It is my nature to be skeptical. If it is true as described, then thank God for God. It was a brutal existence for humanity. Who would want to live in ancient times? Not I. We were a young people. Mozart could not have survived in that brutal culture.

    I guess this is where priests, rabbis, and ministers are so critically important. They create a bridge between the archaic language and symbolism and culture described in the Bible and the readers of the Bible two thousand years after it was written. Having the messages in the Bible translated for modern minds and cultures is critical for the survival of Christianity.

    Mere Christianity and C.S. Lewis’s other various essays and books are very relevant to the issue discussed in the OP. Lewis presents a case for Christianity that was really novel to me when I read it, though it should not have been. I couldn’t believe, when I read it, that no one had suggested it before – when I was a teenager or in Sunday School.

    Looking back, I had grown a little arrogant in my dismissal of Christianity, and Lewis’s writing was very humbling. Here was a guy who was 1) obviously much brighter than me, 2) had a far greater knowledge of philosophy and the history of human thought than I had, 3) had, at some point most all of the same objections to Christianity that I had, being a reluctant convert, and 4) made it clear that I was not as smart as I thought I was with respect to those objections.

    He made it clear that Christianity was a serious intellectual philosophy that I could not just dismiss as an ancient supersitition, wishful thinking, etc…

    Yes. All true for me too.

    C. S. Lewis is wonderful. Some things in this life are overrated. C. S. Lewis is not one of them. :-)

    • #82
  23. Eustace C. Scrubb Member
    Eustace C. Scrubb
    @EustaceCScrubb

    The Apostle Paul acknowledged following Jesus wasn’t a high status calling in I Cor. 1: “26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.””

    • #83
  24. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    @sabrdance

    You get that young members of the Chinese Communist Party going to Church is the cultural equivalent of an American raised Southern Baptist busting out and joining a buddhist meditation group when they go to college, right?

    For good and ill each place’s dominant religion is associated with all its cultural and historical baggage.  How you feel about your place in the world past and present is going to affect how you see that dominant religion and its adherents.  

    • #84
  25. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Travis McKee (View Comment):

    It was founded by a fatherless carpenter, and first caught on among fishermen and prostitutes. Among the fastest groups to convert, once introduced to the religion, were the Untouchables of India. It was always for the low caste, and today, is still most devoutly followed in the Global South, the poorer half of the globe.

    Regarding elites, anti-theism in general is clearly trending as a shibboleth of the power elite. I don’t expect our current order to last much longer, but it is troubling, because I can no longer stand just about anybody with influence in modern society.

    You responding to Cato?

    Yeah, I thought about that, and how his remarks seemed so very opposite to Nietzsche’s criticism of Christianity.  But then I noticed that he only referred specially to certain points of eschatology as having been propagated by an elite.  I’m still not sure which points, although I may find out when I scroll down a bit more.  In any case, my working theory is that if you mean this as an objection to Cato then it misses the mark.

    • #85
  26. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Zafar (View Comment):

    Travis McKee (View Comment):

    It was founded by a fatherless carpenter, and first caught on among fishermen and prostitutes. Among the fastest groups to convert, once introduced to the religion, were the Untouchables of India.

    Sorry to be picky but most Dalits are still Hindus. Dalits are about 16% of the Indian population. Christians are about 2.5%.

    But most Christians in India (and Pakistan) were Dalit converts, right?

    (Not counting the ancient Mar Thoma church which goes back to the Apostle Thomas.)

    • #86
  27. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):

    I think there’s something to this but don’t underestimate the fact that for many of us, the eschatology is just simply not intellectually compelling. It is unevidenced and has all the look, feel and smell of both primitive superstition and a narrative developed by an elite to gain and maintain social control. In short, it just seems very likely to have been made up — for perfectly human and understandable reasons — but made up nonetheless. . . .

    Can you elaborate? In particular, what eschatology are you referring to?

    Epistemologically, the eschatology primarily comes in based on the authority of Christ and Scripture (and, Catholics and others may add, the church). Critiquing or defending the eschatology in itself is interesting and perhaps somewhat important, but not as much as other questions.

    The more foundational questions are more important–whether the inerrancy of the Bible makes sense, whether evidence given for it is good, whether the historical claims regarding the Resurrection meet the standards of historical evidence, whether the Messianic prophecies Jesus fits were really made centuries before him, whether it’s rational to trust the testimony of the church, etc.

    (Epistemologically speaking.)

    I think you’ve hit the nail on the head.

    Yay!

    Biblical inerrancy as an epistemology strains my credulity way past the breaking point. It does for very large numbers of people. BTW, I’m not going to go round and round with you on that epistemological question. I’m well aware you’re able to fill a book with arguments for it but I’ve read that book already, . . .

    Nonsense!  I haven’t even written it yet!

    . . . and to say I am unpersuaded is a gross understatement. My point was simply to articulate one of the alternatives to class snobbishness for the the failure of the “engage the culture” movement discussed in article cited in the OP.

    Fair enough, I reckon.

    • #87
  28. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    AltarGirl (View Comment):

    Saint Augustine (View Comment):

    Richard Easton (View Comment):

    There was a hierarchy of churches 60-70 years ago. Episcopalians were at the top. Baptists or Pentecostals were much further down. Sneering at Christianity has been encouraged by many of the chattering classes for some time.

    Yes. It’s ok to be Christian as long as you don’t really believe in much of the actual theology. Just don’t be like Baptists. Baptists are stupid. If you become a Baptist you’ll look stupid. You don’t want to look stupid, do you?

    Honestly, yeah.

    Catholics and Anglicans have a richer history of apologetics and well-reasoned theology. Anyone who studies their faith in those traditions are a bit more intelligent.

    Baptists are great at prioritizing scripture, knowing it, and memorizing it, but they are weak on context, theology, and apologetics.

    The lack of Reason + Faith kinda does make them dumber.

    Really?  What Baptist theology or apologetics have you studied?  And who’s in the Catholic and Anglican history you refer to?  Is Augustine there?  He’s part of the Baptist heritage too.

    However, I’ll take the faithful adherence to scripture of Baptists over the well-reasoned justifications to do the opposite of what scripture says any day.

    And the representatives of that “richer history of apologetics and well-reasoned theology” would agree, and then they’d explain why that belief is perfectly rational.

    Baptists are the children with faith.

    There’s a great holiday coming up in a few days – Easter and April Fool’s. I keep telling my husband how disappointed I will be if the priest doesn’t talk about being a fool for Christ.

    Excellent!

    • #88
  29. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Kate Braestrup (View Comment):

    Eschatology: the part of theology concerned with death, judgment, and the final destiny of the soul and of humankind.

    Good.

    Now if you think that eschatology isn’t about loving G-d and neighbor, you could do with a little more time in Augustine and N. T. Wright, if I may be so bold.

    I didn’t say that young (and reforming and, now that I think of it, militantly missionary versions of) religions are the only ones that have eschatologies, I said they emphasize them.

    Oh!  I’m sorry.  My bad.

    But do you not think that ancient Islam, Christianity, Judaism, or Buddhism emphasized their eschatologies?

    I have never had a Hindu, reformed Jew or Buddhist tell me that if I didn’t convert to their tradition, I would go to hell and/or contribute to the apocalypse. Muslims and Christians (and evironmentalists, of course) have offered this warning/condemnation/sales gambit.

    Ah!  So it’s not about emphasis, is it?  You’re only suggesting that it’s a mark of younger religious traditions that they have a particular kind of emphasis–the kind that says “Convert or go to hell while contributing to the apocalypse.”

    Yeah, you might be right about that.  I really don’t know.

    • #89
  30. Saint Augustine Member
    Saint Augustine
    @SaintAugustine

    Majestyk (View Comment):

    Cato Rand (View Comment):
    Helping our neighbors is probably something we can agree on. And if the example it sets generates interest in what motivates your good works, good on ‘ya.

    What is the causal relation between believing in things which cannot possibly be demonstrated and acting decently?

    Ask Socrates, I guess.  Maybe he’ll have an answer.

    Cato is right in # 47, though, that “beliefs often generate actions. And deeply held beliefs more so.”

    I wouldn’t have my faith if I didn’t think it had been demonstrated pretty darn well.

    • #90
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