Recommended by Ricochet Members Created with Sketch. A Russian’s View on US Politics: A Surprising Sentiment

 

I have a friend who is an academic from Russia. She earned her doctorate in the United States and is on the tenure track, yet she did not move to this country until it was time for graduate school. She’s brilliant and lovely in many ways, and we met for a long walk last weekend. Somehow, our talk turned to Trump, and she had some surprising things to say on the topic.

First, she noted in 2016 that her mother who is a product of the Soviet Union finally believed that the United States really does function with some form of democratic government in place. This is not an illusion or mere propaganda from our side of the ocean.

Why is this?

All the media that her mother saw — all the institutions of power that have long been in place and were not shy about pulling whatever levers they could pull — seemed to be against Donald Trump, yet he still won the contest.

I had never thought about it in quite that way, but yeah. 2016 certainly showed that power rests in the people in a way that elections in the past might not have done for an outside observer.

Second, my friend wondered if the media understood how silly they were making the country look to people in other parts of the world per their non-stop assault on a democratically elected president by continuously flogging the Russia narrative … by elevating Russia to a position of power from which it could actually “rig” our outcome.

She also did not understand how a tabloid book is now the source of all attention, and she wanted me to explain why it is dominating every cable news channel when there are so many more newsworthy stories currently lighting up the world.

Now, this was interesting to me, for I have many European friends who have decried to me how Donald Trump undermines the US on the international stage per his own mannerisms and clumsy diplomacy. I don’t want to make overly sweeping statements, but suffice it to say that President Trump offends many Old World sensibilities.

Therefore, to hear someone from another country say she feels the media is debasing the American brand struck me as surprising as, say, seeing the Mayor of San Francisco suddenly wearing a MAGA hat on television.

Yet her point was well taken.

My friend is a bit defensive of her original homeland, and she isn’t a big fan of President Trump’s. She still thinks that a lot of the criticisms of him are quite fair, but is flummoxed by the people who wear T-shirts that say he’s not their president, which are common on university campuses.

Isn’t this a denial of the outcome? Do people not see that they weaken their entire country’s position as a democratic republic when they try so hard to delegitimize an election’s result? When they so openly and so continuously deride the president? And more than a year later?

Of course, she has a good point.

I am openly a Trump critic and I certainly did not support his election. (No. I did not vote for Hillary.) Yet I, too, feel a great deal of scorn for the people who seem incapable of recognizing that saying Trump is the President is a matter of fact, not a matter of “normalizing” an aberration.

In a free society, our journalists should always critically examine our leaders’ actions/policies/ideologies, etc. and not worry about their execution as happens in … uh … some countries. (One must broach some subjects gingerly with one’s Russian friends?)

Yet it is quite a different thing to continuously challenge the voices of millions of voters who put their faith in that leader by saying without evidence that he was never legitimately elected in the first place.

My friend’s Russian mother finally believes America truly is a place with democratic underpinnings, but we left the conversation wondering together if all Americans really believe this.

If one is truly interested in different perspectives, it is always worthwhile to go on long walks with friends.

There are 41 comments.

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  1. George Townsend Inactive

    Thank you, Lois. Very interesting to get other’s perspective, especially when they were not born here. As much as I no longer admire Dennis Prager, he still says some worthwhile things, such as it is impossible for one who was born into a country like the former Soviet Union to fully understand what we have in our country, and vice versa.

    As you know, I agree with you about our current president. I cringe almost every day at some of the things he says and does. That being said, he is our President. And I can’t understand those who will not admit it, and give him credit when he does do right. If you love your country, I can’t see any other way.

    • #1
    • January 10, 2018, at 7:42 AM PST
    • 2 likes
  2. EJHill Podcaster
    EJHillJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Europeans are a weird lot. America is vulgar and crass and certainly racist by their measure yet they are the continent with the history of colonialism, empires and bowing and scraping to birth-right royalty.

    Democrats (and many Republicans) are Europhiles at heart. They have their own royal family in the Kennedys, Barons and Earls in the Congress and the courtiers of show business. They treat Chelsea Clinton and the Obama girls as princesses.

    • #2
    • January 10, 2018, at 8:48 AM PST
    • 10 likes
  3. Typical Anomaly Inactive

    I enjoyed reading an unfiltered POV. The only explanation I can offer is it is evidence of the degree of brainwashing that has taken place here. Too many have been convinced of the “right” political position. They did not arrive at this conclusion through experience, education and critical thinking. They came to believe it because they were told to do so.

    What a travesty that so great a system is manifest (we elect a black man, then we elect a man considered unelectable) yet so many don’t see the merits of the system, they fixate on what is wrong with the man. They ignore the facts:

    • They live in circumstances far better than their grandparents could have imagined.
    • They benefit from the actions of this “terrible” man’s first year in office.
    • #3
    • January 10, 2018, at 8:49 AM PST
    • 4 likes
  4. Lois Lane Coolidge
    Lois Lane

    EJHill (View Comment):
    Europeans are a weird lot. America is vulgar and crass and certainly racist by their measure yet they are the continent with the history of colonialism, empires and bowing and scraping to birth-right royalty.

    It is very interesting. I am going to pass out a Pew study this term to my students that shows Americans are actually MUCH more tolerant of immigrants, despite the xenophobia label that is so often attached to us by Europeans.

    EJHill (View Comment):
    Democrats (and many Republicans) are Europhiles at heart. They have their own royal family in the Kennedys, Barons and Earls in the Congress and the courtiers of show business. They treat Chelsea Clinton and the Obama girls as princesses.

    I think Americans are often dishonest with themselves about how much they are attracted to “royalty.” Our fascination with celebrity–and the English royal family–shows this. (How many times has Princess Di been on the cover of People, one of the most widely circulated glossies in the country? Even after her death two decades ago???)

    Typical Anomaly (View Comment):
    What a travesty that so great a system is manifest (we elect a black man, then we elect a man considered unelectable) yet so many don’t see the merits of the system, they fixate on what is wrong with the man.

    This is human nature, I think. I also feel this was a bit of what my friend was trying to say. We should laud the greatness of the system rather than trying to tear it down, which is–actually–not what Donald Trump is doing but the media is doing. (The tearing down thing.)

    • #4
    • January 10, 2018, at 9:00 AM PST
    • 5 likes
  5. Midget Faded Rattlesnake Contributor

    Lois Lane: Second, my friend wondered if the media understood how silly they were making the country look to people in other parts of the world per their non-stop assault on a democratically elected president by continuously flogging the Russia narrative… by elevating Russia to a position of power from which it could actually “rig” our outcome.

    To provoke and sow dissent generally seems in accordance with Russian goals, at least as I’ve heard them described. Not MAGA but MATEO (Make Americans Troll Each Other). Evidently, many Americans find outrage at other Americans an absorbing pastime.

    • #5
    • January 10, 2018, at 9:33 AM PST
    • 6 likes
  6. Lois Lane Coolidge
    Lois Lane

    Midget Faded Rattlesnake (View Comment):

    Lois Lane: Second, my friend wondered if the media understood how silly they were making the country look to people in other parts of the world per their non-stop assault on a democratically elected president by continuously flogging the Russia narrative… by elevating Russia to a position of power from which it could actually “rig” our outcome.

    To provoke and sow dissent generally seems in accordance with Russian goals, at least as I’ve heard them described. Not MAGA but MATEO (Make Americans Troll Each Other). Evidently, many Americans find outrage at other Americans an absorbing pastime.

    True on the first point, but it seems the reality that Americans live in perpetual outrage means no one needs to help them board the trolling boat.

    I think it’s in part because I believe Russia does not have America’s best interests at heart–but I know my Russian friend cares about this country–that I found the perspective interesting.

    • #6
    • January 10, 2018, at 9:47 AM PST
    • 2 likes
  7. George Townsend Inactive

    EJHill (View Comment):
    Europeans are a weird lot. America is vulgar and crass and certainly racist by their measure yet they are the continent with the history of colonialism, empires and bowing and scraping to birth-right royalty.

    Democrats (and many Republicans) are Europhiles at heart. They have their own royal family in the Kennedys, Barons and Earls in the Congress and the courtiers of show business. They treat Chelsea Clinton and the Obama girls as princesses.

    I largely agree with the first paragraph, and largely disagree with the second.

    Europeans are weird. Look at the way France reacted to the Bill Clinton shenanigans! They think “playing around” is normal. We are decadent because we think it is something to be frowned upon. And the part about colonialism, etc., is surely right.

    Never having been a Democrat, I can’t really say if they are Europhiles. But I think Republicans are too individualistic for that. I do think, as Lois states, a lot of Americans are fascinated with royalty. But there are reasons for this: It is a different culture. People can be fascinated by the different. It doesn’t mean we want to be like them. We treasure our independence. We broke away from “the Mother country”, didn’t we? Nobody that I can think of wants to go back.

    • #7
    • January 10, 2018, at 10:03 AM PST
    • Like
  8. The Reticulator Member

    Lois Lane: All the media that her mother saw–all the institutions of power that have long been in place and were not shy about pulling whatever levers they could pull–seemed to be against Donald Trump, yet he still won the contest.

    Alexei Navalny pointed our much the same thing in his YouTube video the day after our election, and suggested that it would be good if Russia could have unpredictable elections, too.

    • #8
    • January 10, 2018, at 10:11 AM PST
    • 4 likes
  9. EJHill Podcaster
    EJHillJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    George Townsend: Never having been a Democrat, I can’t really say if they are Europhiles.

    All you have to do is get into discussion on health care and they’ll reveal themselves.

    • #9
    • January 10, 2018, at 10:26 AM PST
    • 3 likes
  10. Profile Photo Member

    Lois Lane (View Comment):
    it seems the reality that Americans live in perpetual outrage means no one needs to help them board the trolling boat.

    This only applies to a minority for whom politics is entertainment and more. Some people live politics as if it were important. Now, I agree that tax law is important and expect Trump’s election to return some amount of prosperity. The culture wars have gotten so ridiculous that I think they contain their own destruction. I remember reading somewhere that “There are some ideas so illogical that only a tenured academic could believe them.” That is not a direct quote but expresses the sentiment, I think.

    • #10
    • January 10, 2018, at 11:18 AM PST
    • 1 like
  11. Profile Photo Member

    EJHill (View Comment):

    George Townsend: Never having been a Democrat, I can’t really say if they are Europhiles.

    All you have to do is get into discussion on health care and they’ll reveal themselves.

    Yes. I usd to read and comment on a left wing blog but once I made an argument that single payer health care is not a useful system, I was attacked so viciously, then banned, that I gave up. The left do not understand that most European health care systems are not “single payer,” for example.

    • #11
    • January 10, 2018, at 11:20 AM PST
    • Like
  12. George Townsend Inactive

    EJHill (View Comment):

    George Townsend: Never having been a Democrat, I can’t really say if they are Europhiles.

    All you have to do is get into discussion on health care and they’ll reveal themselves.

    I do see what you mean by this. They do seem to like the fact that Europeans seem to “give” their people everything.

    I think, by the the way, that this is a good refutation that the two parties are so much alike. I know I do not have much of an egalitarian streek, and I’ve been a Republican for close on to forty years.

    • #12
    • January 10, 2018, at 11:24 AM PST
    • Like
  13. OkieSailor Member
    OkieSailorJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Lois Lane: She also did not understand how a tabloid book is now the source of all attention, and she wanted me to explain why it is dominating every cable news channel when there are so many more newsworthy stories currently lighting up the world.

    Sleaze sells, just like sex sells. And our media has almost completely succumbed to the lure of cash. If it bleeds it leads has been replaced by whatever it takes to get the most viewers. Mostly to pay the exorbitant salaries of the pop star ‘anchors’. Not entirely the fault of the media though, the consumers don’t have to buy the product.

    • #13
    • January 10, 2018, at 11:48 AM PST
    • 1 like
  14. Ontheleftcoast Member

    Lois Lane (View Comment):
    I think Americans are often dishonest with themselves about how much they are attracted to “royalty.”

    I remember reading about a study on a troop of some social primate, I think Rhesus monkeys. Anyway, they had one of those setups where they pushed a lever and got some juice or something they liked. They were then given another choice: looking at pictures (maybe videos? I don’t remember) of the top ranking monkeys in the troop. Many exhibited a preference for the pictures over the juice.

    My first thought: “People Magazine!”

    • #14
    • January 10, 2018, at 11:49 AM PST
    • 3 likes
  15. Front Seat Cat Member

    “In a free society, our journalists should always critically examine our leaders’ actions/policies/ideologies, etc. and not worry about their execution as happens in … uh …some countries. (One must broach some subjects gingerly?)”

    Your above statement is the problem – they don’t examine anything – they waste time hating the current president, have no interest in backing their work with facts and research, and are clearly liberal –

    There are quite a few Eastern Europeans working here in my area who are not fond of Putin – there are reasons why they come here to work, start businesses and get their families out of there.

    • #15
    • January 10, 2018, at 12:12 PM PST
    • 1 like
  16. Lois Lane Coolidge
    Lois Lane

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    People can be fascinated by the different. It doesn’t mean we want to be like them. We treasure our independence.

    That’s true, but we have had some political “dynasties.” Perhaps there was a backlash to this with Jeb, though his last name was not his fault.

    The Reticulator (View Comment):
    Alexei Navalny pointed our much the same thing in his YouTube video the day after our election…

    Cool!

    EJHill (View Comment):

    George Townsend: Never having been a Democrat, I can’t really say if they are Europhiles.

    All you have to do is get into discussion on health care and they’ll reveal themselves.

    There is truth in that, for sure.

    Mike-K (View Comment):
    The culture wars have gotten so ridiculous that I think they contain their own destruction

    God, I hope so.

    OkieSailor (View Comment):
    Sleaze sells, just like sex sells.

    Who could argue? I think that the president should have ignored the book more than he did though, whatever the media highlighted. Trying to suppress sleaze in a non-Russian state almost guarantees higher sales.

    Ontheleftcoast (View Comment):
    My first thought: “People Magazine!”

    Hilarious. Can I admit it? I used to really like this magazine when I was much younger. Someone gave me a subscription recently, and I find it almost entirely unreadable now. Yet I still flipped to the article about Harry’s new (American) bride-to-be. I can’t help myself. I don’t want a queen–to @georgetownsend‘s thoughts–but I find England’s royal family sparkly. And I want Harry and Wills to be happy, which may be weird since… you know. I don’t have them on speed dial. (Yes. I watched their mother’s funeral. My poor husband thought I was deranged!)

    Front Seat Cat (View Comment):
    Your above statement is the problem – they don’t examine anything – they waste time hating the current president, have no interest in backing their work with facts and research, and are clearly liberal –

    Of course it feels like this when looking at quite a large number of journalists working today, and this is what my friend was observing. It would be no surprise to me to hear a conservative Republican note that some members of the media are revealing biases that destroy credibility, but I was surprised by someone from another country commenting that the media is actually hurting the country on an international stage.

    That’s not just disheartening. That’s a serious problem, I think, though I don’t see a way to fix it.

    Why not?

    Donald Trump hatred clearly sells, so that’s what will continue to be pitched.

    • #16
    • January 10, 2018, at 3:02 PM PST
    • 2 likes
  17. Umbra Fractus Inactive
    Umbra FractusJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Lois Lane (View Comment):
    Hilarious. Can I admit it? I used to really like this magazine when I was much younger. Someone gave me a subscription recently, and I find it almost entirely unreadable now. Yet I still flipped to the article about Harry’s new (American) bride-to-be. I can’t help myself. I don’t want a queen–to @georgetownsend‘s thoughts–but I find England’s royal family sparkly. And I want Harry and Wills to be happy, which may be weird since… you know. I don’t have them on speed dial. (Yes. I watched their mother’s funeral. My poor husband thought I was deranged!)

    I think part of being a conservative is respecting ancient traditions, even if you wouldn’t necessarily want to emulate them.

    • #17
    • January 10, 2018, at 4:39 PM PST
    • 4 likes
  18. Lois Lane Coolidge
    Lois Lane

    Umbra Fractus (View Comment):

    Lois Lane (View Comment):
    Hilarious. Can I admit it? I used to really like this magazine when I was much younger. Someone gave me a subscription recently, and I find it almost entirely unreadable now. Yet I still flipped to the article about Harry’s new (American) bride-to-be. I can’t help myself. I don’t want a queen–to @georgetownsend‘s thoughts–but I find England’s royal family sparkly. And I want Harry and Wills to be happy, which may be weird since… you know. I don’t have them on speed dial. (Yes. I watched their mother’s funeral. My poor husband thought I was deranged!)

    I think part of being a conservative is respecting ancient traditions, even if you wouldn’t necessarily want to emulate them.

    Well, that. Plus I liked Di’s hats, now Kate’s. Plus I cry when little boys lose their mothers, and I started studying history because I found the Tudor dynasty to read like my grandmother’s soap operas.

    But thanks for trying to intellectual-it-up for me, @umbrafractus! :)

    • #18
    • January 10, 2018, at 4:53 PM PST
    • 1 like
  19. Ontheleftcoast Member

    Umbra Fractus (View Comment):
    I think part of being a conservative is respecting ancient traditions, even if you wouldn’t necessarily want to emulate them.

    How ancient are you talking about? If you really want to try an interesting one, go into a store that has high end cosmetics and estheticians or cosmetologists helping the customers with the products. Wait until they’re well into it, and then just sort of defocus your eyes so you’re seeing body language but not looking at the actual brush techniques or whatever.

    Or just tell us if you see any similarity between this

    and this

    I’m just sayin’.

    • #19
    • January 10, 2018, at 5:25 PM PST
    • 2 likes
  20. Lois Lane Coolidge
    Lois Lane

    Ontheleftcoast (View Comment):

    Umbra Fractus (View Comment):
    I think part of being a conservative is respecting ancient traditions, even if you wouldn’t necessarily want to emulate them.

    How ancient are you talking about? If you really want to try an interesting one, go into a store that has high end cosmetics and estheticians or cosmetologists helping the customers with the products. Wait until they’re well into it, and then just sort of defocus your eyes so you’re seeing body language but not looking at the actual brush techniques or whatever.

    Or just tell us if you see any similarity between this

    and this

    I’m just sayin’.

    I like monkeys.

    • #20
    • January 10, 2018, at 6:43 PM PST
    • Like
  21. Randy Webster Member

    Mike-K (View Comment):

    Lois Lane (View Comment):
    it seems the reality that Americans live in perpetual outrage means no one needs to help them board the trolling boat.

    This only applies to a minority for whom politics is entertainment and more. Some people live politics as if it were important. Now, I agree that tax law is important and expect Trump’s election to return some amount of prosperity. The culture wars have gotten so ridiculous that I think they contain their own destruction. I remember reading somewhere that “There are some ideas so illogical that only a tenured academic could believe them.” That is not a direct quote but expresses the sentiment, I think.

    Orwell: There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.

    • #21
    • January 10, 2018, at 7:39 PM PST
    • 2 likes
  22. George Townsend Inactive

    Lois Lane (View Comment):
    That’s true, but we have had some political “dynasties.” Perhaps there was a backlash to this with Jeb, though his last name was not his fault.

    May I register some more thoughts, plus a slight quibble?

    I take your point about dynasties, but could it be that, when it happened, Americans were not expressing their desire for a dynasty but just picking the person they (we) thought might be better for the job?

    Some people carry dislike for a monarchy too far. I think you are closer to the feelings of most people, Lois: We don’t want this type of arrangement, but it can fun watching all the pageantry. I think part of the attraction is that we know the queen has no real power. It is just, if you like, show business. So, what’s the harm? I watch Special Report every night, and, the other night, Charlie Hurt (not one of my favorites) was on the panel. He was asked if he would go to the upcoming wedding? He said “No”, going on to say that we kicked these people out once. Huh? It’s a wedding, Charlie. You are not being knighted!

    • #22
    • January 11, 2018, at 12:38 AM PST
    • 1 like
  23. Larry3435 Member

    I’ve heard it said that there are two kinds of people in the world – those who divide the world into two kinds of people, and those who don’t. I’m usually in the “don’t” camp, but it does seem that there are two ways that people look at politics. There are people who pay attention to the things a politician says, and those who pay attention to the results achieved. This isn’t a bright line dichotomy, of course. It’s somewhat a continuum. But the world outside the US sure seems to be way, way over on the “what he says” side of the spectrum.

    For reasons I still don’t understand, much of the world (and the US) considered Obama to be a great orator. Personally, I thought that every word I ever heard come out of Obama’s mouth was utterly inane. But it is indisputable that the world liked what he said. They gave him a Nobel Peace Prize before he actually did anything, much less achieved any results. Just because they liked what he said. His results, of course, were the antithesis of peace. The Middle East in flames. An Islamic State established in Syria and Iraq. An increasingly hostile and dangerous North Korea. Increased terrorism worldwide. Weakened relationships with our historical allies. Russian military adventurism on two continents. Aggressive Chinese actions to establish hegemony in East Asia and the Western Pacific. Genocidal conflicts in Africa. Half-hearted American involvement in multiple wars. And, of course, the utterly idiotic doctrine of “leading from behind.”

    Obama failed at absolutely every goal he set for himself, and yet the world cheered him. Now, with Trump, we have the mirror image. Most of the world pays no attention to the results he has achieved, but rather is hysterically obsessed with hating everything he says. And with anything anyone says he said, whether he actually said it or not. The defeat of Isis is far less important to them than Trump’s latest tweet. Record high stock market and record low unemployment are far less important to them than Trump tripping over a word in a speech. Economic growth that exceeds anything seen during the Obama years is far less important to them than Trump engaging in hyperbole at a rally.

    Well, I think that attitude is a load of [CoC]ing [CoC]. So I declare myself to be in the other camp of the two kinds of people in the world. For at least the next three years, this former NT is interested only in results achieved. Go Trump!

    • #23
    • January 11, 2018, at 5:49 AM PST
    • 2 likes
  24. Lois Lane Coolidge
    Lois Lane

    Larry3435 (View Comment):
    For reasons I still don’t understand, much of the world (and the US) considered Obama to be a great orator.

    I thought President Obama gave two great speeches… One was about no red or blue america during the Kerry convention, and one was about race when he was first running for election.

    To your point, however, I learned that President Obama didn’t actually mean many of the things he said, so I’m with you in thinking that words can be inane.

    As for the current state of leadership… I’d probably like a bit more polish from Trump, but my political heroes are men like Winston Churchill who both spoke and did great things at the same time.

    I also don’t really care what the rest of the world thinks about our president in general, as long as they still follow our country’s lead. I lived in Europe during the W years, soooo…

    The difference here was that my friend felt the American coverage of Trump makes the country look foolish, not the actual figure of Trump (or W, or Reagan, or any other Republican ever). That is new, and I think it speaks to a pressing need for reforms in American journalism, though I don’t know how to make people report objectively if they think–as they seem to show every day–that it is more ethical to distort and lie than it is to just report.

    The bottom line for me is that the free press cannot serve as any sort of real check on power when even people from the outside feel the free press is nothing but corrupt.

    • #24
    • January 11, 2018, at 7:09 AM PST
    • 4 likes
  25. OkieSailor Member
    OkieSailorJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Larry3435 (View Comment):
    I’ve heard it said that there are two kinds of people in the world – those who divide the world into two kinds of people, and those who don’t. I’m usually in the “don’t” camp, but it does seem that there are two ways that people look at politics. There are people who pay attention to the things a politician says, and those who pay attention to the results achieved. This isn’t a bright line dichotomy, of course. It’s somewhat a continuum. But the world outside the US sure seems to be way, way over on the “what he says” side of the spectrum.

    For reasons I still don’t understand, much of the world (and the US) considered Obama to be a great orator. Personally, I thought that every word I ever heard come out of Obama’s mouth was utterly inane. But it is indisputable that the world liked what he said. They gave him a Nobel Peace Prize before he actually did anything, much less achieved any results. Just because they liked what he said. His results, of course, were the antithesis of peace. The Middle East in flames. An Islamic State established in Syria and Iraq. An increasingly hostile and dangerous North Korea. Increased terrorism worldwide. Weakened relationships with our historical allies. Russian military adventurism on two continents. Aggressive Chinese actions to establish hegemony in East Asia and the Western Pacific. Genocidal conflicts in Africa. Half-hearted American involvement in multiple wars. And, of course, the utterly idiotic doctrine of “leading from behind.”

    Obama failed at absolutely every goal he set for himself, and yet the world cheered him. Now, with Trump, we have the mirror image. Most of the world pays no attention to the results he has achieved, but rather is hysterically obsessed with hating everything he says. And with anything anyone says he said, whether he actually said it or not. The defeat of Isis is far less important to them than Trump’s latest tweet. Record high stock market and record low unemployment are far less important to them than Trump tripping over a word in a speech. Economic growth that exceeds anything seen during the Obama years is far less important to them than Trump engaging in hyperbole at a rally.

    Well, I think that attitude is a load of [CoC]ing [CoC]. So I declare myself to be in the other camp of the two kinds of people in the world. For at least the next three years, this former NT is interested only in results achieved. Go Trump!

    Yep, just so. Glad you wrote it so I don’t have to.

    • #25
    • January 11, 2018, at 7:09 AM PST
    • 1 like
  26. OkieSailor Member
    OkieSailorJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Lois Lane (View Comment):
    I thought President Obama gave two great speeches… One was about no red or blue america during the Kerry convention, and one was about race when he was first running for election.

    To your point, however, I learned that President Obama didn’t actually mean many of the things he said, so I’m with you in thinking that words can be inane.

    He gave two speeches with content that wasn’t whacko. That doesn’t make him a great orator, just a moderatly good politician. He was and is just an OK orator, not even approaching greatness say like Kennedy, Reagan, Proxmire or many others. His advantage was in following Bush II who was pretty bad at oratory even though most of what he said was more founded in sound thinking than the pap Mr. Obama peddled.
    I do enjoy listening to great oratory but am more interested in the substance of what has been said than the form and polish with which it has been delivered. I’m afraid that puts me in a pretty small minority today.

    • #26
    • January 11, 2018, at 7:15 AM PST
    • Like
  27. Umbra Fractus Inactive
    Umbra FractusJoined in the first year of Ricochet Ricochet Charter Member

    Larry3435 (View Comment):

    Well, I think that attitude is a load of [CoC]ing [CoC]. So I declare myself to be in the other camp of the two kinds of people in the world. For at least the next three years, this former NT is interested only in results achieved. Go Trump!

    I think both attitudes are a load. Being grateful for the good does not mean we have to ignore the bad, nor does acknowledging the bad mean we have to deny the good. Too many people on both sides of the debate insist that one negates the other. If we want any of the good to stick then we need to acknowledge that the bad is a liability. There is a very real possibility that Donald Trump may lose in 2020 on the basis of his personality, and if we continue to insist that those who are concerned about this are just butthurt NeverTrumps then we make that possibility more likely.

    • #27
    • January 11, 2018, at 7:37 AM PST
    • 5 likes
  28. George Townsend Inactive

    Larry3435 (View Comment):
    Economic growth that exceeds anything seen during the Obama years is far less important to them than Trump engaging in hyperbole at a rally.

    Ninety percent or so of the people on Ricochet know how I think about Mr. Trump. So I will just say this: Words matter. People during our Revolution were persuaded, by both the printed and spoken word, that we were doing the right thing. The Revolution was that much more great because of the words that were in that beautiful document: The Declaration of Independence. Actions matter, of course, as do the results. But it all starts with words – which spur the action.

    That being said, we live in a superficial age. And the way people sound, and project, is more important, it seems, than what they actually are saying. The fact that Obama won twice proves this. As does the reaction to Oprah’s speech. Does anybody know what important thing she said? No. The fact that she said it well is why she is talked about as running for president.

    • #28
    • January 11, 2018, at 8:16 AM PST
    • 2 likes
  29. Lois Lane Coolidge
    Lois Lane

    George Townsend (View Comment):
    That being said, we live in a superficial age.

    Oh, my word, yes.

    • #29
    • January 11, 2018, at 8:30 AM PST
    • 2 likes
  30. Lois Lane Coolidge
    Lois Lane

    OkieSailor (View Comment):
    I do enjoy listening to great oratory but am more interested in the substance of what has been said than the form and polish with which it has been delivered. I’m afraid that puts me in a pretty small minority today.

    I don’t think that puts you in a minority on Ricochet.

    • #30
    • January 11, 2018, at 8:31 AM PST
    • 1 like

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