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Life
Last night I was watching an episode of Red Oaks, well, re-watching since we’re being honest here. The main character, David, bumps into one of his mom’s friends, who is pregnant. He asks, “Can I?” since he wants to touch her belly. She replies, “Of course.”
Why does David want to touch that pregnant belly? And why does she so readily consent? Surely he would not ask and she would not agree to this rather intimate contact under other circumstances. After all, they hardly know each other.
The more astute (or should I say woke) among you see where I’m going here. There’s life in that belly and we all have a stake in it. Historically, children have been a sort of public property* in the sense that everyone feels some responsibility and care for children even if they belong to strangers. Yet somehow these beings are not given the most basic human right before they exit the womb. Even animals are better protected from suffering. This and related contradictions will have to be resolved someday. On a personal note, I admit without hesitation or embarrassment that my own views on this matter have changed over the years, in no small measure because of posts and comments here on Ricochet.
I have to wonder if it’s still ok to ask a pregnant woman if you can touch her belly. My guess is no — not that I would ever be so bold.
That’s too bad. There’s Life in there.
*I stole this from Judith Martin, aka Miss Manners in her book Miss Manners’ Guide to Rearing Perfect Children, which was published in the 1980s — coincidentally it’s the decade in which Red Oaks is set.
Published in General
I was sharing my experience, not arguing with your post. The comments had strayed away from the OP.
But since you bring it up… how would you feel about a stranger asking permission to touch your junk? Why do you assume it is cool to even ask for permission? Doesn’t that put the pregnant woman on the defensive, so if she says “no” she is somehow a bad person?
The issue was brought up and thoroughly discussed about 30 comments before yours.
False equivalence: genitals and abdomen. Not all body parts are the same. But I think you knew that.
Hey, how would you feel if someone touched your arm? Do you people have to ask permission before shaking hands and does that put you on the defensive?
Now come on that’s a bit much. Do you have to ask permission to offer to shake someone’s hand? No, of course not. And your ridiculous analogy is the other extreme. Touching a woman’s belly is in between and closer to patting someone on the shoulder (though not exact, I realize) than to touching someone’s junk. Make adequate comparisons rather than trying to start a fight.
I was late to the conversation, but jumped in anyway. Please accept my apology if this was too discordant for you.
Yes, and no. I am a Torah-observant Jew. Women and men do NOT casually touch. Married women consider their natural head hair to be as private as other body hair.
…which is relevant because I am probably about as sensitive to the TSA groping my privates as my wife is to a stranger touching her stomach while pregnant.
Actually, it bothers me. People do not casually touch in my community’s culture or in my business sector. When I meet someone who is “touchy” it sets off internal warning bells.
When someone sticks out their hand I feel obligated to reciprocate. NOT reciprocating makes me the bad guy. And while I do professionally shake the hands of women (so as not to cause embarrassment), if a woman who knew better stuck out her hand, I would indeed be on the defensive. It happens from time to time.
Well, this is America so put that into your calculation, please.
I am not trying to start a fight. I was merely sharing my perspective, for which I was smacked down with the comment.
The point I am making is much simpler: different people are much more sensitive than others. I don’t care much about TSA groping (beyond the general dislike of government overreach and TSA ineptitude), and my wife, a decade or two later, is still steamed about people touching her stomach.
You lost me. Are you suggesting that in America people who know better have license to be rude?
No — just that we have differing definitions of what rudeness is all across the fruited planes and in general the country is comprised of people who are not as socially conservative as orthodox Jews.
For example: Some people hug, some don’t — you gotta ask to find out.
I appreciate having this information. I am aware that there are touchy differences among different cultures and sub-cultures, but wasn’t aware of this practice among Torah-observant Jews. I try to remember such things and mind my manners when among others. I was sort of brought up the same way in rural German Lutheran communities, though it was not something that was ever discussed. It was just the way people behaved. I haven’t gotten completely used to all the touchiness and hugging that goes on nowadays, but I must admit that I found the behavior described in the OP and by others (where permission is asked) to be charming, even though I am not used to it.
I’ve read in guidebooks about the proper handshaking behavior between men and women in Russia. When watching old Russian movies you almost have to know about this when you see scenes in which the proper behavior is violated, because departures from proper practice are handled subtly and are significant but not too significant. They seem to matter, but only slightly. I gather that a lot of the old rules are now relaxed there, just as they are here.
Well, that has more to do with the “German” than the “Lutheran” descriptor, I suspect.
It could be just as much the rural part. Farmers tend to develop a small-‘s’ stoicism that doesn’t really lend itself very well to the touchy feely thing.
Sure. In the 60s I heard lots of jokes about the cultural differences between Germans and Scandinavians, and this was in the context of them all being Lutheran. There was some truth behind the jokes, which is reflected in some of the differences between the Lutheran denominations today. It wasn’t until I was in grad school in Lake Wobegon country that I learned about the characteristics of German Catholic communities.
It’s a big world, and there’s room for all of us.
My mom was, and my sisters are, regularly blown away by the conversations I have with complete strangers.
I could spend the rest of my life offended by comments and actions of strangers, and friends for that matter. I recognized long ago that there’s something about me that projects being approachable – I don’t think I could do “resting bitch face” on a bet.
With a lot of effort, I could list the strangers that questioned my ability to handle another baby when they saw me struggling in the grocery store with 2 or 3 toddlers. The old people in church who, while looking for more space in the pew – questioned my being there. Exact comment: Should you even be out? When are you due? I snapped back: I’m due tonight. Keep your feet up.
I could tell the story about some stranger calling the cops because my children were seen walking to school unattended, blah blah blah.
Instead, I’ll remember the guy at Trader Joe’s who appeared like an angel and swooped my toddler out of a sea of broken wine bottles, got me through the check out and loaded up the car. I’ll remember the stranger who asked: are all those kids yours? (they weren’t, but I was feeling defensive and said yes). She then told me I was the luckiest person in the world to have such a beautiful family
I’ll remember the dad at the mall who offered to hold my baby while I chased a toddler, got pucked on and handled it with grace and dignity.
And I’ll remember fondly the strangers who approached me when I was pregnant, even those who put their hands on my belly without asking permission.
Why did they do it? Because there’s Life in there.