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W vs. Trump: Who Is the Real “Conservative?”
There was a long discussion after a Harvard Lunch Club podcast called the “Never Trump Edition” in which the conversation veered into a place I found interesting. There is a notion now on many Ricochet threads that asserts that Donald Trump is the “most conservative president in the White House since Eisenhower.”
So @drlorentz asked this question: “What good did GWB do during his tenure besides being NotGore or NotKerry?” I think that question deserves some exploration.
George W. Bush was definitely not as conservative as Ronald Reagan, but it seems to me that people have forgotten some of the things that he did that were very, very, very conservative.
For example, as the healthcare debate continues with no resolution in sight, I would remind my fellow Ricochet members that Health Savings Accounts came into being during W’s tenure.
How did those work?
Younger people could buy high deductible insurance plans in the healthiest stages of life, while putting aside tax-deferred money in a special account to meet future healthcare needs.
What was the idea there?
Instead of being disconnected from the cost of going to a doctor because of a plan that required a $10 co-pay, these people paid more bills out of their HSAs. This added a free market element to healthcare, which is ultimately what conservatives — per my understanding of what those are — believe is necessary to fix our God awful healthcare mess.
How did HSAs work in the real world?
I will never forget my son breaking his arm while we had a high deductible and a Health Savings Account. When I got the bill, I thought it was ridiculous. I went to our doctor’s office manager to discuss this. I whipped out my HSA card and said I’d clear up the bill right then, but I was paying it all outright, and the bill was too high. Couldn’t we talk about the charges?
She smiled and said, “You’ll pay right now? You know what? It’s your lucky day. We’re having a fire sale on broken arms. How about a 20% discount?”
YES!
So under Bush I got an HSA and more control over my family’s healthcare, whereas Donald Trump calls cuts to Medicaid “mean.”
To be honest, I’m not truly sure what it is Trump likes or doesn’t like about the current proposals for healthcare reform apart from the idea that he wants to sign something, but Bush did help with a conservative initiative there.
One of the things that completely flummoxed me about Obamacare is that it limited HSAs. (Whyyy?) Those would have allowed young people to save for the big costs when they were older, which might have eventually allowed us to think about reforming Medicare.
Do you remember when Trump signed an executive order to end the Johnson Amendment? Do you also remember that this executive order—while applauded for being in the right spirit—was so weak that the ACLU decided not to challenge it?
Well, I remember George W. Bush’s Office of Faith Based and Community Initiatives, which allowed faith-based organizations to have access to federal funds. This is tied to the idea that religious organizations should not be discriminated against simply because the people who work within them wish to serve others because of their devotion to Jesus Christ. (The horror!) Isn’t that pretty conservative?
The first person Bush appointed to lead the OFBCI was none other than Don Willett, a judge who made Trump’s “short list” for the Supreme Court and is well known for how he uses Twitter to communicate with constituents. (I think Trump should take lessons from Don. That Willett feed is fabulous and a great example of how social media can be a positive workaround of the media without getting anyone in trouble.)
The ACLU bothered to sue over Bush’s program.
Speaking of the Supreme Court, one might recall that Bush appointed John Roberts and Samuel Alito.
I know, I know.
People have issues with the Roberts’ ruling on Obamacare, and these objections are principled objections for sure.
But Roberts has had an overall conservative approach to the law. His dissent on Obergefell is absolutely spot on. He is no Kennedy squish, that’s for sure.
Then there’s Samuel Alito. Goodness gracious. He’s almost in the Clarence Thomas camp, and Clarence Thomas? While a George H. W. Bush appointee, he is the most conservative judge on the Supreme Court.
So if Trump gets massive conservative cred for Gorsuch — as he should — we can’t forget Sam. Bush did that. And, uh, if Gore or Kerry had been elected? The court’s balance would look very different today.
Looking at entitlement reform, George W. Bush pushed to privatize Social Security. That was about conservative ideology. It didn’t happen, but Donald Trump has been clear on the fact that he won’t touch this program at all. I’m not sure how Trump gets “more conservative” points on that front.
For those of you who are now screaming about Medicare, I’ll say, yes. W had the Medicare expansion that got senior citizens free drugs. I’ll grant every day that bit of “compassionate conservatism” didn’t end up great, and Bush was horrible with restraining spending.
But isn’t the Medicare expansion kind of equivalent to pushing for more funds to combat opioid addiction? Or let me go a little further.
As an entitlement, how is Trump’s proposal to create paid parent leave ideologically different — or ultimately less expensive — than paying for some seniors’ drugs?
Per the reasoning behind W’s drugs and Trump’s babies, aren’t we kinda on the same “compassion” page when we get right down to it?
Then there’s foreign policy.
I don’t understand the complete amnesia people have about 9/11.
Did we as a people not want to lift W up on our shoulders and start weeping in gratitude when he stood atop the rubble of our buildings and put his arm around the fireman? When he took that megaphone within his own hand and spoke to all of us? Was that not W saying the United States is the greatest country on Earth, and we will not tolerate people attacking us?
Granted, during those years he made plenty of mistakes. I’m not denying this.
Perhaps he was sometimes too Wilsonesque with his speeches about spreading democracy around the world, but didn’t Reagan use some of the same sort of language?
On that front, I think some people say Trump is more conservative than Bush because his rhetoric is more about staying out of other countries. Trump is less neo-con, more paleo-con. (In general, I think that’s true.)
Yet these people go back to Eisenhower as the last “real conservative” before Trump, and I recall Ike meddled quite a bit in the affairs of other countries.
Do people mean something different?
So … Iraq again.
Wasn’t that a stable country when Bush left office? I mean, I kinda thought it was. Afghanistan? Not so much. Iraq?
George W. Bush took the advice of his commanders, which conservatives tend to think is a good thing to do, and pushed for the Surge, right?
Wasn’t it Obama who messed that whole thing up?
Then there’s North Korea.
Isn’t Donald Trump trying to work his way back to the same level of sanctions that Bush had?
Now, let me say, I love me some Mattis, but how is what Trump is doing that different from that which Bush did?
Some say Trump is “stronger” as people believe he’ll use force when necessary.
But people clearly thought Bush would use the military to do things. He did! People called him a “cowboy” in the press, which I always thought was funny because — well — who doesn’t like John Wayne?
So Bush made mistakes, but he also communicated strength.
By the way, George W. Bush was pretty popular as far as members of the military go. If anything, he’s become more popular with them because of how he has treated the men and women who have served. And, while Dan Rather may have derided Bush’s service, there is a bit of cachet in the fact that the man could pilot a plane. (As a sidenote, George H. W. Bush’s service cannot be derided at all, and I think that normally gets a bit of respect from conservatives.)
Then there was Iran.
Bush was pretty unequivocal about the Iranian regime being part of an axis of evil. Didn’t his policies help set up the Green Revolution, which — again — Obama squandered? (How is that Bush’s fault?)
Per Russia, after he got over gazing into eyes and thinking he knew “Putin’s heart” — Good Lord! — Bush had the sense to start lining up deals to increase our missile defense shield.
Isn’t that what Trump is doing now? Reviving what Bush had already done in Poland?
Look. I’m not trying to take away anything from Donald Trump in this post, but I don’t understand why so many people here sound like they work for the New York Times when talking about W.
Bush was more moderate than Reagan, more conservative than his father.
I’ll have to wait and see if Trump is “more conservative” than Bush. However, I think I’ve shown Bush was more than “Not Gore” or “Not Kerry” in ways that were more substantive than just being polite.
I hope I have anyway.
I’ve got a soft spot in my heart for W, and I don’t think his legacy in the pantheon of American presidents is anywhere close to being understood.
As for Trump?
He’s just started. We have a long way to go to understand the real impact of either of these men.
Published in Politics
Bush was a progressive on the whole. His progressive accomplishments far outweigh his conservatives ones. Also, without congress saying no he would have been able to enact his progressive amnesty. In my mind, George Bush was more progressive than conservative.
I disagree, but that’s okay, right? We don’t have to agree about everything.
Except from what I remember there wasn’t a huge contingent on the right criticizing Bush for being a progressive, but now we get character from NT.
What Progressive accomplishments? Medicare Part D?
The Bush’s and Clintons go way back. Trump and the Clintons go way back too.
President Trump may well have a situation that tests him and the will of the country. We shall see how he does then.
I am very much opposed to the soft coup going on and I hope it ends very very poorly for those engaged in it.
There’s plenty of ammo for people on either side of the Bush/Trump argument.
Bailouts, expanding medicare, Patriot Act (not progressive but big government and violates our rights), No child left behind, worker assistance act, Farm security and rural investment act, tried to grant amnesty, and ballooning the deficit to name a few.
Also it’s a target-rich environment.
Well, first, I don’t think there are as large a number of people on the right who felt that Bush was a “progressive” back then as there are people on the right who feel that character issues are worthy of note in the current administration. This may be fair or unfair. Perhaps someone who does polling could figure this out?
Second, I certainly remember criticism of Bush that came from the right about things like spending. Some of the people that are disdainfully called “NT” were not all “rah rah” Bush every five seconds. For example, I think people have just outright forgotten some of the scathing things Jonah Goldberg wrote about the nonsensicality of “compassionate conservatism” whilst W was in office. (It was a long time ago.)
Third, Donald Trump has faced a lot of very unfair, over-the-top hyperbole, which sometimes makes me want to scream, but I remember walking through Seattle while my cousin was in Iraq and reading quite a few signs about Bush and our military that were… uh… gross. I understand some people thought Bush was ineffective in how he handled that noise, but he got re-elected with more votes the second time around, so he wasn’t that ineffective, right?
Finally, I think it’s important for us to try to find the pragmatic ground on which to pitch a new tent to promote conservative policies on which we can agree, and that means we are going to have to be tolerant of different points of view within that tent. I mean, I will absolutely say what I think is good about Donald Trump, as I hope I did when George W Bush was president. But I will absolutely say what I think is worthy of criticism, as I hope I did when George W Bush was president.
You didn’t know me in any way back then, but I can promise you that people in my house had as robust conversations about things we didn’t like in the early 2000s as we do about Donald Trump now. They were simply about different things. We saw this as part of engaging with politics since… you know… no one wanted to vote for any of us. :)
I hope you feel as if this has been a respectful conversation.
Also he refused to squeak so much as one word against the Clintons’ corruption of our government. I chalk it up to his being a man of weak character more than to any progressivism. He was too weak of intellect and character to have any governing principles of his own, so the course of least resistance was to adopt much of the progressive agenda.
I enjoyed our conversation, it was respectful, and I thank you for that. I am probably the wrong person to go after in terms of alliance. I told you I won’t make common cause with someone on the other side of the immigration debate and I’m not to keen on working with Never Trumpers either. I don’t know where you stand in conjunction to either of those but this is where I stand.
100% agree.
After 2004 there were 54 GOP Senate Seats and the House was roughly where it is now. Between 2004 and 2006, when Dems won everything back, all we got was amnesty and the Katrina media debacle. The good Doctor did not overstate anything. Also, after 2002 there were 52 Senate seats and a majority in the House. We got Med part D and sunsetting tax cuts.
Oh you forgot to mention signing McCain-Feingold too. Restricting free speech is now “Conservative”?
What about all the domestic spending? Our own Jonah Goldberg will tell you that Bush’s spending spree was more reminiscent of a Democrat than a “Conservative.”
No, it’s not conservative. It’s an exceedingly un-conservative idea that government is intended to be a charity. Terrible precedent.
I appreciate George Bush. He’s a good man with a good heart, and his work with veterans is so admirable, I get choked up thinking about it. I thanked God every day that he was president after 9/11 and not Gore — just like I thank God every day that Trump is president and not Hillary.
But, I think you’re missing the point of “Trump being the most conservative president since Reagan” (or whoever). His cabinet appointments are extraordinary. There are now people in charge of (superfluous) agencies who are opposed to them (see EPA, DoE…). The Generals (Mattis, Kelly…) are amazing. Trump’s ethic of caring for the “forgotten” man is well-served by these people. He’s restoring the rule of law through the AG Sessions after a solid 8 years of lawlessness. He’s deregulating in a way not seen since Reagan — more freedom.
But, perhaps most significantly, he’s almost single-handedly discrediting the traitorous media complex who’ve been serving the progressive agenda, peddling left-wing propaganda, and misinforming the people for decades. He may be the only person who could rescue us from political correctness, which is a way to force people to lie so as not to offend the Left. He’s making our enemies nervous and our (true) friends giddy (see Poland and Israel). He seems to understand better than any Republican in recent memory that conservative intellectuals don’t pay the price for their strict adherence to principle — the common working stiff does. If that’s the definition of “populist”, well, I don’t see populism as a bad thing anymore.
BTW, my thoughts aren’t original. They’re coming from watching VDH and Andrew Klavan on YouTube today. Klavan says, if Gorsuch was the only thing Trump did right, it’d still be worth electing him. He spared us the end of the American Experiment that Hillary would have assured — the “fundamental transformation” started by BHO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOP0m27K5og
I wouldn’t say that the Bailouts or the deficit are inherently Progressive.
This unfortunately turns out to be true.
Using taxpayers money to bailout financial institutions to ensure the wealthy stay super wealthy is socialist, so in a sense you are correct. Deficits are but another means to allowing the banking class to remain wealthy without really producing anything.
I agree with the author that the jury is still out on Trump in terms of action as to whether or not he is “Conservative,” but there is no need to deliberate regarding Bush. The man did not implement one policy that sought one “Conservative” aim aside from taxes. Ideologically speaking, he, like his father, was a complete and total fraud. And yes, I voted for him twice. He was the first president I voted for. By 2004 the only reason why I voted for him was because I was more comfortable with him waging the “War on Terror” than Kerry. That was back in my days of being rah, rah US military intervention everywhere. Now, I see if for what it is: empire at the expense of our liberty at home.
Who is the real Rock n Roller? Brittany Spears or John Tesh? Answer this and you can chose the conservative between Bush and Trump.
I am no longer meaningfully convinced that the idolatrous pagan cult of buckleyanity is meaningfully conservative, especially as the children of the revolution lay waste to what they revolutionaries built.
A suggested correction: What Progressive “accomplishments”? There are no progressive accomplishments.
Well, I didn’t vote for Donald Trump. I didn’t vote for Hillary Clinton either. I didn’t like either one of them very much at all.
However, I approve of some things that Donald Trump has done, even as I continue to disapprove of some of the things he does. For example, I don’t find him to be a very conservative guy at all, but I love, love, love Jim Mattis, especially after Ash Carter. I think a lot of people who are in the “enthusiastic Trump” camp also approve of this appointment. That right there is “common cause” and puts us on the same ground.
Immigration? I like programs like E-Verify when it comes to much of this, as that’s pragmatic and effective when used correctly. I have no problems with enforcing our immigration laws, but I also recognize that our system is stupid and should be changed. Here I’d prefer an Australian “merits based” model over the LBJ “family, which turns into extended family, which turns into lots of extended family” model that we currently have.
I thought Romney was right about “self-deportation” if existing laws were only enforced, so I never thought the wall rhetoric was all that wonderful… especially because it didn’t make any sense to me, and I never thought it was going to be built.
I also don’t mind “guest worker” programs because I teach US History and remember the “birds of passage” that used to be very common until our system made them impossible. (They were people who came for a while–maybe seasonal–and worked and then left because they didn’t want to be Americans. Most of them were actually from Italy.) Maybe these programs should be limited–sure!!!–but I think there should be a discussion about them without people yelling “amnesty” all the time. After all, I lived and worked in another country for three years though I had no intention of not coming back to this one.
Sooo…. Enforce immigration laws? I’m on your page. How we do that? I don’t know. That’s a longer discussion. Reform immigration? Needs to happen. Maybe we have some disagreements on the finer points about how to do that, but I don’t think we are continents away from one another. If you’d push out me over what I’ve said about immigration here, you’ll have a hard time building political coalitions to get anything done…
So… That’s evidence that people who some now designate as “Never Trump” commentators were happy to point out flaws in the Bush presidency. Yep. They did that all the time, which is why they are being consistent when they say what they really think about President Trump, too.
(I point this out because the biggest a complaint on this thread about Bush is that when he didn’t act like a conservative people who aren’t big Trump fans said nothing. That’s untrue.)
I never said that Bush was the most conservative president ever. I’ve pointed out repeatedly that his domestic spending was completely out of control. I just think there is an also in his record.
The main idea was to allow faith based organizations to be treated equally. Per the underlying thought here, you disagree with the ruling for the Lutheran Church that wanted access to already available $ for its preschool? You would go instead with Sonia’s dissent? That was more “conservative”?
Me, too.
George W. Bush appointed two conservative justices. At this point, everyone loved Roberts as much as Gorsuch. (I still love Roberts though I disagree with his Obamacare ruling.)
Look… I didn’t miss the point of anything. I’m taking issue with the superlative “most conservative since” and reminding people that George W. Bush wasn’t just left of Gore.
It’s six months into Donald Trump’s administration. We will have to see to know how “conservative” he will be in the long run. That’s not a criticism. It’s an observation.
I mean, I’d love it if some lasting steps that can’t immediately be reversed end up being right of Reagan. I would! I just don’t think we know this yet so the superlative is a bit… well… just words.
I think I pointed out some others. Supreme Court justice appointments for one. (Gorsuch is sure lifted up a lot. Alito is no slouch.)
But if you dismiss all of those, taxes are no small thing, yes???
Regardless, thank you for conceding this:
In the end, I find most politicians disappointing. But I hope that the current president achieves good aims in the end.
And I am happy that we as voters on the right can disagree on some points but agree on others.
Yes and no. They still supported Bush fully and did not run a full magazine campaign against his reelection. Their biggest complaint in 2016 was Trump was not a “Conservative.” Well guess what? Neither was George the Younger. It’s one thing to say this guy is not implementing policy we like. It’s something totally different to say this guy is not implementing policy we like AND he must be prevented from representing us. Speaks of hypocrisy to me.
Your list was fine. I might have cut corners rhetorically. But at the end of the Day Bush did not roll anything back and in fact one of his nominees solidified the notion that the general government can tell citizens to buy stuff. Taxes can be a huge thing so long as they are permanent and coupled with actual reductions in spending.
If you know anything about me, know this: Trump is breathing room between one Leftist thug and the next. As long as he can stack the Federal judiciary, he will have done his job before our next dictator takes over.
I am continually surprised that some people identify President Trump as a “conservative”. Most people agree that Trump is not an ideologue. He does not expose a consistent set of long held beliefs that color his opinions on various policy issues which he can explain in detail. He views things in a transaction sense that is independent of previous decisions and sometimes in conflict with previous decisions. So while he makes decisions on some topics that most people who are ideological conservatives would agree with, in my opinion he isn’t a conservative . President Bush on the other hand had more of a consistent ideology in his decision making, and most of his decisions were ones that people who call themselves conservative would agree with.