Reactions to the London Attack, Helpful and Unhelpful

 

Jon, I was prompted to write this when I saw your post this morning.

I spent the day yesterday with two friends who were visiting from London. They live quite close to London Bridge. One used to be a Ricochet member. Both were, until recently, solid Atlanticists — and still are — but they’re both offended beyond words by the tone of hostility and contempt for Britain that’s oozing, non-stop, out of the US these days, starting with the President, and echoed by many Americans on social media. I don’t blame them for being offended.

“Instructing Londoners to run, hide, and tell,” Jon writes, “is a dramatic departure from the can-do, stiff-upper-lip, globe-striding empire of a century ago.”

Actually, it’s not.

This guidance has been in place since 2014. It’s not a dramatic departure from anything, although it is a response to studying hundreds of similar situations around the world, including many in the United States. You’ll note that Britons are being told, explicitly, not to surrender or negotiate. The reason they’re emphasizing the seemingly obvious — run — is that we now, unfortunately, have a lot of evidence about how civilians (everywhere) behave during terrorist attacks and other emergencies. Some small percentage of them do behave as we all like to fantasize we would: They become superheroes who defeat the terrorists using any implement available. Unfortunately, in reality, many people don’t do that. They freeze. 

“Freezing” seems to be something like a biologic default. It’s a cross-cultural reaction to fear. So people do in fact need to be told, specifically, not to obey that instinct. They need to be warned that their first response may be to deny what’s happening, or be confused by it, and freeze. They need to hear (often, repetitively) that this is not the reaction most likely to result in their survival. 

This is why we get a lot of seemingly-obvious warnings about what to do and not do in other kinds of emergencies — e.g., “If you need to evacuate this plane, do not stop to get your luggage.” The reason we hear that all the time isn’t because the airline officials condescendingly suspect we might be idiots. It’s because they know we are. There’s evidence, and a lot of it, that a significant number of people will try to get their luggage, even though every second matters when you’re trying to evacuate a smoke-filled plane, and even though people who try to get their luggage put everyone behind them in mortal danger. And yes, this happens in the US as well as the UK. An NTSB study found that 50 percent — yes, 50 percent — of the passengers in emergency evacuations tried to take their bags. Now, why would they do such a stupid thing? Because most people have no experience of situations like this, and most people don’t respond heroically — or rationally — to them, unless they’ve had a lot of training. No matter what you think you would do, the reality is that in emergencies, many people do dumb things, and unless you’ve been in the situation yourself, you don’t know for sure you wouldn’t be one of them.

“Run, Hide, Fight” is standard protocol for active-shooter situations in the US, too. Are Americans wimps because we, too, need to be told to run and hide? Ah, but you say, part of the advice we get is to fight. Well, no one is telling the British not to fight: And indeed, they fought — they fought back with everything they had on hand: chairs, pint glasses, bottles, discarded bicycle parts. They’ve emphasized “Tell” over “Fight” because that actually makes a lot of sense if you’re living a country where the cops are armed and the terrorists aren’t, and it makes even more sense if the cops are able to get there and kill all of the terrorists within eight minutes. That is, by the way, an impressive achievement, and the appropriate reaction from allies to that news is, “Well done,” not “You remind us of Neville Chamberlain.”

Larry Barton, an American researcher at the University of Central Florida, is the highest-rated instructor at the FBI Academy and US Marshals Service. His research supports both the “run” advice and the giving of the advice. He analyzed 61 deadly assaults in public places from 2006 to 2016 — mostly in the United States. Among those who survived, 73 percent did so by running. Those who ran wound up with no no injuries or only moderate injuries, e.g., a sprained ankle. Of those who survived by hiding — 20 percent — a third were more seriously injured. “Running” is generally the best strategy. It is not always and everywhere the best strategy; there is no such thing as a universally successful solution. But it’s statistically likely to be the best strategy. A highly pro-Second Amendment group, The Truth About Guns, ran simulations of the Charlie Hebdo attack, for example, in which one or more of the civilians were armed. The civilians “died” in every scenario except immediate flight from the scene. So overall, based on evidence, the responsible advice to give the public — whether it’s armed or not — is “run.” 

When Americans respond to an event like this by insinuating that the victims of the attack are wimps, or that they would have performed better under the same circumstances, it — unsurprisingly — offends the victims. It offends them terribly, in fact. And pointlessly. As one of the friends who was visiting me yesterday wrote on my Facebook page (in response to an offensive comment to this effect):

Before you sneer at us, may I remind you that the UK has the longest continuous experience of terrorism on its soil of any western country, and the greatest expertise in stopping it. Yes, we have had far too many terrorist incidents, but they are a drop in the ocean compared with the myriad plots that have been foiled. I think it’s fair to say the 9/11 plot would probably have been detected here. A little respect for us might be in order, too.

I agree. A lot more respect might be in order.

Many Americans believe the British were offended that Obama moved a bust of Churchill. Obama denied that it had been moved. Whether or not it was moved, I’ve never spoken personally to anyone in Britain who was offended by this story. Many have never even heard it. But everyone I know in Britain — and remember, I lived there for seven years, so I do know many people there, and I stay in contact with quite a few of them — is wildly offended by this kind of sneering. It causes real harm to our relationship with the people of Britain. What we say, in fact, on social media and other public fora, causes more offense than anything our politicians say: A politician’s comments can be dismissed, by people with a generous nature, as unrepresentative of the American character. But when ordinary Americans use social media to sneer at our allies, it really leaves a bad taste — and let’s not pretend we would not feel precisely the same way were the situation reversed. We would.

More than 220,000 British personnel have served in Iraq and Afghanistan. According to Ministry of Defence figures, 456 Britons have died in Afghanistan. More than 7,300 have been treated for battlefield injuries, non-combat wounds, or disease related to their service. In Iraq, 179 British service personnel were killed. Some 5,800 were treated in field hospitals. This is a heavy toll. Britain wasn’t attacked on September 11. We were. They are in Afghanistan because we asked them to be. They entered war in Iraq because we asked them to. They did so despite believing it would increase the risk of terrorism on British soil. They did it because they are our allies.

When in response they hear sneering contempt from Americans to the effect that they’re sheeplike, cowardly wusses reminiscent of Neville Chamberlain — illustrated by wartime enlistment posters, clearly meant to suggest that Britons no longer enlist — they respond exactly as Americans would were the situation reversed. They did enlist, and do enlist, and they have been fighting, by our side, since September 11. Here are photographs of British men (and a woman) who died in 2010 in Afghanistan. In this link, you can see more photos of the British men and women who’ve died in every year of that war since it began. 

So why would an American, in the wake of an attack on British soil, taunt the British for failing to enlist? Every one of the men above died because they took seriously the promise that an attack on any one of us would be an attack on all of us. Is taunting the British for being “sheeplike” and unwilling to enlist in the fight the right way to show our respect to their families?

Jon posted a photo of the famous “Keep calm and carry on” poster, intimating that the Britain of calm, dignity, and resilience is dead, replaced by a bunch of cowering ninnies. As it happens, that poster — precisely — has been widely circulating on British Twitter in the wake of the attack. But I suspect that if it were a new poster, Americans would be mocking the British for urging calm and normalcy. Our president would be Tweeting, ‘At least 7 dead and 48 wounded in terror attack and the British are saying, “Keep calm and carry on!”‘ 

President Trump’s tweets caused grave offense. You may think the offense misplaced, but I can promise you they did cause offense, and I don’t find that offense at all hard to understand. What on earth would possess him to use an occasion like this to criticize the Mayor of London? Jennifer Rubin’s description of this is accurate:

After receiving blowback for that obnoxious missive, he tweeted out, “Whatever the United States can do to help out in London and the U. K., we will be there – WE ARE WITH YOU. GOD BLESS!” But then he decided to slam the mayor of the city attacked, who had calmly warned his fellow Londoners: “Londoners will see an increased police presence today and over the course of the next few days. There’s no reason to be alarmed.” Trump took the second part out of context and responded viciously, “At least 7 dead and 48 wounded in terror attack and Mayor of London says there is ‘no reason to be alarmed!’” (The mayor, of course, was telling them not to be alarmed by the heightened police presence.) Trump was not done, however, inanely tweeting, “Do you notice we are not having a gun debate right now? That’s because they used knives and a truck!”

The offense caused by this kind of boorishness has real consequences — for us. It’s insane, right before a British general election, to hand ammunition to a politician like Jeremy Corbyn. But that’s exactly what this kind of behavior from Americans does. It puts defenders of the Anglo-American alliance in a terrible position. And this time, the people who are offended aren’t the usual suspects — they’re not British leftists who have always hated Americans and always will. We’re offending people who have always considered Americans their closest allies. And it isn’t because they’re delicate snowflakes, either. It’s because we’re being offensive. The tone of contempt from Americans, above all, is one no amount of rational argument can counter. If American voters didn’t care for being called “deplorable,” how do you imagine British voters feel about being called cowardly, sheeplike, and a disgrace to their heritage?

The UK has committed 1,250 military personnel to the fight against ISIS. Apart from us, the Royal Air Force has conducted more airstrikes in Iraq and Syria than any other Coalition country. It provides intelligence and surveillance to Iraqi Security Forces. It’s trained 39,000 Iraqi soldiers in engineering, medical skills, and infantry. In Syria, UK armed forces are training Syrian opposition groups in infantry, emergency medicine, and explosive disposal. How does undermining this alliance help us?

Why would we mock the British in the wake of a terrorist attack that killed seven innocent people on their soil? We know what it means to be the victims of terrorism. Why would we spit on our friends? What do we get out of it?

My answer: We get nothing out of it. So I suggest we not do it. It’s not in our interests to harm the friendship between the United States and Britain. And more importantly, it’s just not decent.

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  1. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Ramadan Drive A Thon Ends June… (View Comment):
    Image may contain: 1 person

    Much good this prayer thing has done, incidentally.

    • #61
  2. Ekosj Member
    Ekosj
    @Ekosj

    The Atlanticists have spent decades carefully molding a passive population. They are not going to allow all that work do be undone by a knee-jerk reaction to a few incidents.    There is no encouragement to “Fight” in “Run, Hide, Tell” because “Fight” implies the people taking matters into their  own hands and the powers that be will simply not have it.

    • #62
  3. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Majestyk (View Comment):
    Much good this prayer thing has done, incidentally.

    “Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition”.

    • #63
  4. RyanFalcone Member
    RyanFalcone
    @RyanFalcone

    Alarming post. Nobody is sneering at Brits beside the leftists who are screaming about possible anti-Muslim backlash because Brits must be racist or something. If anything, those of us on the right are the biggest admirers of Britain. If our longing for their safety and disgust over the policy that allows this violence to thrive is seen as sneering by many, I don’t know what to say for them. We all know their press is even worse than ours so that might explain it. It seems these folks are in a rage over this insanity but aren’t comfortable in naming the true enemy and are just seeking a more easy target. They also may have a different definition of sneering?

    If people are using this event as an outlet for their Trump-derangement, that is another issue entirely.

    • #64
  5. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    ctlaw (View Comment):

    Claire Berlinski, Ed.: A highly pro-Second Amendment group, The Truth About Guns, ran simulations of the Charlie Hebdo attack, for example, in which one or more of the civilians were armed. The civilians “died” in every scenario except immediate flight from the scene. So overall, based on evidence, the responsible advice to give the public — whether it’s armed or not — is “run.”

    Kevin Creighton (View Comment):
    My friend Erin Palette of Operation Blazing Sword said it better than just about anyone I know: Concealed carry is a herd immunity against crime. Want fewer victims of horrific terror attacks? Stop encouraging a culture of victimhood.

    @claire, First, allow me to apply @kevincreighton‘s generalization to the particular link you cited. The defenders did die, but the tests showed they bought time for others to flee.

    Second, those particular tests were close to a best case scenario for the terrorists. The terrorists were highly trained and armed. The defenders were not. The story mentions a prior school shooter simulation they did against untrained shooters where the defenders came out on top.

    Thus, if an unarmed @claire is in a restaurant/office/etc. that is attacked by highly trained attackers or idiots, you should flee, but your chances of successfully fleeing are increased if someone else there is armed.

    Saw photo’s taken of the Hebdo killers from a window in an apartment from across the street, with a cop down on the ground by them.  All I could think was, ” damn I’d have a clear shot with my AR at both those guys. take me about 30 seconds to lock and load”….  I may not have  killed them, but they would be quite preoccupied,

    • #65
  6. Claire Berlinski, Ed. Member
    Claire Berlinski, Ed.
    @Claire

    Majestyk (View Comment):
    People are dead and the concern is over the feels of continental Europeans?

    Yes. Because the way we’re communicating with each other is undermining genuinely critical alliance relationships. Ones that are essential to keeping a lot more people from ending up dead.

    Britain isn’t part of Continental Europe, but it definitely seems important to me to protect that alliance.

    The way we speak to and about people (especially given that they can understand everything we write) colors their attitudes toward us, and that’s normal. I just don’t see an upside to pouring salt in an ally’s wounds.

    • #66
  7. Lois Lane Coolidge
    Lois Lane
    @LoisLane

    Majestyk (View Comment):
    Much good this prayer thing has done, incidentally.

    Well, now.  That’s a big statement.

    You remember the story about the farmer and his wife during a period of drought?

    Struggling mightily, the farmer got on his knees and prayed, prayed, prayed for an alleviating of his suffering.

    Then he woke up the next morning, and his one cow had died.

    He balled his fist and shook it at God in frustration.

    An angel seeing this turned to God and asked, “Why would you take his cow when he called to you in good faith?”

    “Dear child,” God answered calmly, “it was his wife who was supposed to die, but I heard his call, and I helped.”

    • #67
  8. Kozak Member
    Kozak
    @Kozak

    Claire Berlinski, Ed. (View Comment):

    Kozak (View Comment):

    Claire Berlinski, Ed. (View Comment):
    I assume that there’s extensive footage of all of this — London has the most surveillance cameras per square inch of every city in the world — so we’ll be able to see exactly what happened.

    I’m not so sure. You think the city of London will release footage showing it’s police running away?

    I think there’s a very good chance of an open inquiry, yes. I don’t say I think the chances are 100 percent — just yesterday one of the friends in question was telling me a story about police malfeasance that was covered up with the aid of the police union, although the moral of the story was that the truth did come out in a second investigation. But given that everyone knows that every bit of this will have been filmed, I think it would be extremely hard to get away with any kind of cover-up.

    I look forward to seeing it for myself.

    • #68
  9. Claire Berlinski, Ed. Member
    Claire Berlinski, Ed.
    @Claire

    RyanFalcone (View Comment):
    It seems these folks are in a rage over this insanity but aren’t comfortable in naming the true enemy and are just seeking a more easy target.

    I think people know perfectly well who the enemy is. But they expect the enemy to be the enemy. Being treated with disdain and contempt by a friend hurts in a different way. It’s a betrayal, and it rankles.

    • #69
  10. Zafar Member
    Zafar
    @Zafar

    @lois-lane – I must protest strongly, Madame, at your harsh insinuations against Honey Boo Boo.

    • #70
  11. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Claire Berlinski, Ed. (View Comment):

    Majestyk (View Comment):
    We’ve transitioned from a situation in 20 years or less where the biggest threat to peace and harmony in Blighty was the random car bomb

    Just one more point about this. It seems as if there’s much more terrorism now than there was before. But it’s in fact declined. The perception that terrorism is rising sharply is a function of wall-to-wall media coverage, not statistics:

    I suspect the numbers will rise again as ISIS is wiped out in Syria and Iraq. We’re in for a bad decade. But unless they get their hands on WMD — a possibility I don’t at all rule out, but it isn’t so easy to do that — I don’t think it’s apt to be worse than the 1970s, which were just God-awful.

    Yes.  I have this weird feeling that having 10% or greater Muslim population will catalyze that process.

    I would want to see a breakdown of that chart splitting Muslim/non-muslim inspired portions out.  I mean, the Lockerbie bombing is a huge incident and directly attributable to this cause.  So was Madrid.  Of course, the Madrid bombing was spectacularly successful in that the Spaniards cowered in the corner and even changed their government as a result.

    Congratulations, continental Europeans!  You successfully surrendered to jihadists!

    • #71
  12. RyanFalcone Member
    RyanFalcone
    @RyanFalcone

    Claire Berlinski, Ed. (View Comment):

    RyanFalcone (View Comment):
    It seems these folks are in a rage over this insanity but aren’t comfortable in naming the true enemy and are just seeking a more easy target.

    I think people know perfectly well who the enemy is. But they expect the enemy to be the enemy. Being treated with disdain and contempt by a friend hurts in a different way. It’s a betrayal, and it rankles.

    They aren’t being treated with disdain or contempt though. Nothing even remotely close to that is occurring. This is beyond frustrating.

    • #72
  13. Hang On Member
    Hang On
    @HangOn

    I would not sneer at the British because of “run, hide, tell”. I would sneer at the British security services, the elite and the bien pensant great and good for not arming all police, for not detaining the 23,000, for allowing the Islamic scourge into the country in the first place, for having Teresa May campaigning in head scarf, for having a PM who cut the police force, for having a PM who speaks in meaningless tautologies that clearly tip what she isn’t going to do. And it isn’t only Rotherham. It is a scourge in West Yorkshire that is covered up. Keighley is the latest. Half the local council are Muslims. I wonder if that has anything to do with it.

    • #73
  14. Lois Lane Coolidge
    Lois Lane
    @LoisLane

    Zafar (View Comment):
    @lois-lane – I must protest strongly, Madame, at your harsh insinuations against Honey Boo Boo.

    Quite right, Zafar.  I apologize to the little reality star.  I’m sure she’s an absolute dear.  She was certainly exploited, though I hope someone created a trust for her that she can access when she’s grown up.

    • #74
  15. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Lois Lane (View Comment):

    Majestyk (View Comment):
    Much good this prayer thing has done, incidentally.

    Well, now. That’s a big statement.

    You remember the story about the farmer and his wife during a period of drought?

    Struggling mightily, the farmer got on his knees and prayed, prayed, prayed for an alleviating of his suffering.

    Then he woke up the next morning, and his one cow had died.

    He balled his fist and shook it at God in frustration.

    An angel seeing this turned to God and asked, “Why would you take his cow when he called to you in good faith?”

    “Dear child,” God answered calmly, “it was his wife who was supposed to die, but I heard his call, and I helped.”

    There was a lot buried in what I said.

    Not only does prayer accomplish nothing in the face of determined evil, its practice actively encourages it on the other side.  Those who assert that religiosity is a good must grapple with the vast evil done in its name right in front of our faces.

    • #75
  16. DrewInWisconsin Member
    DrewInWisconsin
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Zafar (View Comment):
    Nobody is sneering at the Brits right now, except the American Right.

    That’s pretty damned slanderous.

     

    • #76
  17. Kevin Creighton Contributor
    Kevin Creighton
    @KevinCreighton

    Claire Berlinski, Ed.: A highly pro-Second Amendment group, The Truth About Guns, ran simulations of the Charlie Hebdo attack, for example, in which one or more of the civilians were armed. The civilians “died” in every scenario except immediate flight from the scene. So overall, based on evidence, the responsible advice to give the public — whether it’s armed or not — is “run.”

    The Truth About Guns (TTAG) is pretty much a joke inside the gun writing world. You will note that I’ve never linked to them in any of the articles I’ve written here, and I will never link to them ever. There’s one guy on their staff (Nick) who can actually shoot (and even he’s a bit of prat twaddle), and the rest of them are there to write clickbait.

    Clickbait for Mother Jones.

    Massad Ayoob, on the other hand, is respected, and he does know what he’s talking about. He literally wrote the book on civilian concealed carry, and I’ll take ten words of advice from him over three pages of TTAG’s rantings. Some will read what Mas wrote and say, “Ah-ha! See, there are a lot of off-duty cops mentioned who stopped mass shootings before they happened, this has nothing to do with concealed carry and an empowered populace!”

    No. I’ve seen cops shoot. I apologize to all here who might be a cop, but the fact is, your average competitor in practical pistol can shoot as well (or better) than your average cop. Most cops learn to shoot because they have to. Me (and thousands more like me) learn to shoot because we want to.

    • #77
  18. Kevin Creighton Contributor
    Kevin Creighton
    @KevinCreighton

    Claire Berlinski, Ed. (View Comment):

    RyanFalcone (View Comment):
    It seems these folks are in a rage over this insanity but aren’t comfortable in naming the true enemy and are just seeking a more easy target.

    I think people know perfectly well who the enemy is. But they expect the enemy to be the enemy. Being treated with disdain and contempt by a friend hurts in a different way. It’s a betrayal, and it rankles.

    So does a friend who surrenders in the face of danger. That’s pretty darn rankling.

    • #78
  19. Lois Lane Coolidge
    Lois Lane
    @LoisLane

    Majestyk (View Comment):

    Not only does prayer accomplish nothing in the face of determined evil, its practice actively encourages it on the other side. Those who assert that religiosity is a good must grapple with the vast evil done in its name right in front of our faces.

    Well, now.  I guess there was a lot buried in what said as well?  Prayer can accomplish a lot in the face of determined evil if there is a God.

    If there is not a supernatural force of any sort, then prayer on the other side is completely unimportant.

    I don’t have to grapple much with the vast evil done in the name of religion because there is vast evil done in the name of pretty much everything.

    Take “justice” for instance.

    Can’t we agree that justice is a good thing?

    Now think about how the Left has at times twisted that word/concept into a horrible cudgel that is not just and has done great damage to our society… sometimes violent damage.

    Should I therefore stop believing in justice?

    • #79
  20. Merrijane Inactive
    Merrijane
    @Merrijane

    “But when ordinary Americans use social media to sneer at our an allies, it really leaves a bad taste — and let’s not pretend we would not feel precisely the same way were the situation reversed.” Amen. It’s as though the default setting nowadays is to criticize in the most condescendingly awful way, whether from elites or regular citizens.

    • #80
  21. Columbo Inactive
    Columbo
    @Columbo

    Zafar (View Comment):
    @lois-lane – I must protest strongly, Madame, at your harsh insinuations against Honey Boo Boo.

    Chrissy Archibald was unavailable to provide her perspective on what you seem to find funny.

     

    • #81
  22. DrewInWisconsin Member
    DrewInWisconsin
    @DrewInWisconsin

    Perhaps CNN’s Reza Aslan is the sort of “helpful” people would prefer?

    • #82
  23. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    All we get from Europe in the US is how bad we are.

    Hell, even in the US we get (from the left) how much better Europe is.

    • #83
  24. Lois Lane Coolidge
    Lois Lane
    @LoisLane

    Columbo (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):
    @lois-lane – I must protest strongly, Madame, at your harsh insinuations against Honey Boo Boo.

    Chrissy Archibald was unavailable to provide her perspective on what you seem to find funny.

    I think that Chrissy’s death is a horrible, horrible thing, and we were not making light of it.

    Even per the side issue about how people perceive people in certain ways… I wasn’t actually making a joke.

     

    • #84
  25. Claire Berlinski, Ed. Member
    Claire Berlinski, Ed.
    @Claire

    Kevin Creighton (View Comment):
    So does a friend who surrenders in the face of danger. That’s pretty darn rankling.

    Look at the photo I posted above of British soldiers who died in Afghanistan. Is that surrendering?

    Did anyone surrender in London? No. Nor does anyone propose to surrender.

    • #85
  26. Ramadan Drive A Thon Ends June… Inactive
    Ramadan Drive A Thon Ends June…
    @Pseudodionysius

    Awkward

    • #86
  27. Majestyk Member
    Majestyk
    @Majestyk

    Lois Lane (View Comment):

    Majestyk (View Comment):

    Not only does prayer accomplish nothing in the face of determined evil, its practice actively encourages it on the other side. Those who assert that religiosity is a good must grapple with the vast evil done in its name right in front of our faces.

    Well, now. I guess there was a lot buried in what I said as well? Prayer can accomplish a lot in the face of determined evil if there is a God.

    Whose God?  If Allah is real, we’re in big trouble.

    If there is not a supernatural force of any sort, then prayer on the other side is completely unimportant.

    It’s meaningless in and of itself.  It’s the second order effects like the incitement to violence that concern me.  If the Jihadists warmed up before detonation with some yodeling that wouldn’t mean yodeling is anything other ​than a pre-game ritual.

    I don’t have to grapple much with the vast evil done in the name of religion because there is vast evil done in the name of pretty much everything.

    Ok.  Then Islamism isn’t real.

    Take “justice” for instance. Can’t we agree that justice is a good thing? Now think about how the Left has at times twisted that word/concept into a horrible cudgel that is not just and has done great damage to our society… sometimes violent damage.

    Should I therefore stop believing in justice?

    No, but you should consider for a moment that any argument you invoke with a religious undercurrent in this situation is countermanded by the other team’s theology.  It’s just a stalemate at that point.

    There has to be some larger understanding or meaning to justice that transcends simple theological justification, or our justice is just our word against theirs.

    • #87
  28. Columbo Inactive
    Columbo
    @Columbo

    Lois Lane (View Comment):

    Columbo (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):
    @lois-lane – I must protest strongly, Madame, at your harsh insinuations against Honey Boo Boo.

    Chrissy Archibald was unavailable to provide her perspective on what you seem to find funny.

    I think that Chrissy’s death is a horrible, horrible thing, and we were not making light of it.

    Even per the side issue about how people perceive people in certain ways… I wasn’t actually making a joke.

    No, you weren’t. I apologize that you perceived I referred to you. @zafar is the one who is cracking “jokes” on a thread about a tragic and cowardly terrorist act that resulted in lives lost. Repeatedly.

    • #88
  29. RyanFalcone Member
    RyanFalcone
    @RyanFalcone

    DrewInWisconsin (View Comment):

    Zafar (View Comment):
    Nobody is sneering at the Brits right now, except the American Right.

    That’s pretty damned slanderous.

    …and impressively stupid. I wonder if the thousands of Muslims with connections to terror within their borders have had occasion to sneer at Brits lately. Maybe they are too busy grinning at the carnage. I can’t name a single conservative who has sneered about this. I’ve seen some callous posts that I could understand, some Brits may take badly.

    The more I read this stuff, the more pissed I’m getting……..and I was already pretty pissed.

    • #89
  30. iWe Coolidge
    iWe
    @iWe

    Claire Berlinski, Ed. (View Comment):

    RyanFalcone (View Comment):
    It seems these folks are in a rage over this insanity but aren’t comfortable in naming the true enemy and are just seeking a more easy target.

    I think people know perfectly well who the enemy is. But they expect the enemy to be the enemy. Being treated with disdain and contempt by a friend hurts in a different way. It’s a betrayal, and it rankles.

    Every single time an act of gun violence occurs in the US, Brits preen and talk about the superiority of their culture and laws. I lived in the UK for 10 years – this happened without fail. It was not betrayal. It was criticism.

    It makes sense to point out that an armed populace is much more effective – it works very well in Israel (where attackers are killed as soon as they lose the element of surprise), and it works throughout the United States wherever carjackers know the drivers might be armed.

    IMMHO, the attitude toward guns are the single biggest differentiator between the US and the UK. If the UK is to be saved from Islamic Supremacy, it needs to reverse course on its anti-gun culture and laws.

    • #90
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