Fly the Unfriendly Skies

 

United Airlines has a PR nightmare on its hands as a disturbing video burned up the Internet. After overbooking the flight from Chicago to Louisville, the crew chose four passengers at random to leave the flight. Passenger number three was a doctor who said he needed to treat patients in the morning, so refused to leave. The flight crew called security, which forcibly yanked him out of his seat and dragged him down the aisle.

This being 2017, several passengers recorded the whole thing on their smartphones:

Airline staff first tried a carrot before using a stick. Before boarding, they offered passengers $400 and a hotel stay to give up their seats. Once boarded, they doubled it to $800 and said the flight wouldn’t leave until four people were gone. When no one volunteered, a computer selected four passengers at random.

With condemnation raining down on the airline, United’s CEO issued a statement:

Using the term “re-accommodate” to describe forcibly dragging a customer off a plane only fueled the online firestorm.

How should United have reacted in this situation and what can they do to fix it?

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  1. Miffed White Male Member
    Miffed White Male
    @MiffedWhiteMale

    cirby (View Comment):

    Lily Bart (View Comment):

    cirby (View Comment):

    because he was in the right in wanting to keep his seat. Even United now admits that.

    Could you provide a link? I’m not doubting – just wanting to see what was said.

    The New York Times (a former newspaper).

    Oscar Munoz, the company’s chief executive, said in a statement that United would take “full responsibility” for the situation and that “no one should ever be mistreated this way.”

    You got “United said he had the right to keep his seat” from standard PR boilerplate like “No one should ever be mistreated this way”?

    • #241
  2. KingOfSwaziland Inactive
    KingOfSwaziland
    @KingOfSwaziland

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    Mark Wilson (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    How would *YOU* have gotten him off the plane?

    The premise is wrong. After the series of errors by United that led up to that moment, getting him off the plane was no longer the appropriate “task at hand”. United needed to find another solution to their own problem.

    No the premise is exactly correct. Someone needed to come off the plane. Whether you feel that was “just” or not is immaterial.

    Nobody needed to come off the plane, there were adequate seats for the boarded passengers. United elected to eject 4 boarded passengers as their way of dealing with their own piss-poor management of crews. United may have been within their legal rights to do what they did, a thing being legal does not make it right, nor does it mean that the public has no right to express their opprobrium at the fools who hide behind the law.

    • #242
  3. Damocles Inactive
    Damocles
    @Damocles

    KingOfSwaziland (View Comment):

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):
    Yes there is. And for whatever reason the airline chose to go with an involuntary removal instead, which is also their right. And once they made that choice, the guy they pick to remove doesn’t get to refuse. That’s what “involuntary” means. It sucks, but that’s part of life. Deal with it and move on.

    Once they made the choice the guy they pick goes, which is true. And once they drag paying customers off their flights after beating them, the rest of us get to savage them on twitter/facebook/etc… Being within your rights legally doesn’t end my right to say you (that is United) are the scum of the earth and that I hope they enjoy the billions of business they lose for being too cheap &$@&!s to do things the right way.

    I saw a funny tweet today:

    Pepsi: man this is the worst PR disaster of the year!

    United: hold my beer…

    • #243
  4. Bryan G. Stephens Thatcher
    Bryan G. Stephens
    @BryanGStephens

    And Delta’s second big crash of the year gets missed. They should send a thank you note to United

    • #244
  5. Lily Bart Inactive
    Lily Bart
    @LilyBart

    Bryan G. Stephens (View Comment):
    And Delta’s second big crash of the year gets missed. They should send a thank you note to United

    But the Islamists are probably super frustrated that they set off bombs in Christian churches in Egypt on Palm Sunday, but America is more interested in talking about someone getting bumped from a flight to notice.  Every single radio program I listened to on the way home were talking about this (and I kept changing the station to find something else).      Interesting that most were not going easy on the good ole doctor. Surprised me.

     

    • #245
  6. Lily Bart Inactive
    Lily Bart
    @LilyBart

    Hey USA today is compiling information too

     

    Here are the major airlines in the report, listed by rates of involuntary denied boardings per 10,000 passengers last year:

    1. Southwest (.99)
    2. JetBlue (.92)
    3. American (.64)
    4. Frontier(.58)
    5. Spirit (.58)
    6. United (.43)
    7. Alaska (.40)
    8. Virgin (.12)
    9. Delta (.10)
    10. Hawaiian (.05)
    • #246
  7. Lily Bart Inactive
    Lily Bart
    @LilyBart

    Here is a concerning thought:  If a young black male refused to comply with law enforcement and was injured in the ensuing scuffle, we’d blame him and say that it was his fault, he should have complied, and perhaps hired representation later if he was wronged.

    If an aging Asian doctor with anger issues refuses to follow instructions from law enforcement – he was right to resist!  Any one would do the same!

    Uneven application of standards?

     

    • #247
  8. Damocles Inactive
    Damocles
    @Damocles

    Lily Bart (View Comment):
    Here is a concerning thought: If a young black male refused to comply with law enforcement and was injured in the ensuing scuffle, we’d blame him and say that it was his fault, he should have complied, and perhaps hired representation later if he was wronged.

    If an aging Asian doctor with anger issues refuses to follow instructions from law enforcement – he was right to resist! Any one would do the same!

    Uneven application of standards?

    lol you would blame him maybe, but I’d say he’s just as entitled to a seat on the plane once he got his boarding pass.  Just like anybody else with a boarding pass and who hadn’t violated any regulations.  I’m glad he made a fuss!

    It is funny though, they picked the 69 year old guy to drag down the aisle.

    • #248
  9. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Lily Bart (View Comment):
    Here is a concerning thought: If a young black male refused to comply with law enforcement and was injured in the ensuing scuffle, we’d blame him and say that it was his fault, he should have complied, and perhaps hired representation later if he was wronged.

    Do you have video of just such a situation?

    If not, please do not project your racism on to the rest of us.

    Thank you

     

    • #249
  10. Damocles Inactive
    Damocles
    @Damocles

    An interesting example of applied psychology:

    Scott Adams was asked how he would respond.  Trimming greatly:

    • once the cops ask you to get off, you’ve really got no option
    • Tell the cop, “for $5000 I’ll walk out, for $800 you’re going to have to drag me down the aisle.”
    • Note that now the cop is the guy that has to make the choice of “dragging down the aisle.”
    • The cop isn’t going to sacrifice himself making that decision, so he’ll consult the gate agent.
    • Likewise, the gate agent isn’t going to want to be the guy to say “ok pull him down the aisle.”
    • It will percolate up as people try to avoid being “the guy who gave the order to pull the passenger down the aisle.”

    He also pointed out the foolishness of selecting senior citizens to toss off the plane.

    • #250
  11. Lily Bart Inactive
    Lily Bart
    @LilyBart

    Instugator (View Comment):

    Lily Bart (View Comment):
    Here is a concerning thought: If a young black male refused to comply with law enforcement and was injured in the ensuing scuffle, we’d blame him and say that it was his fault, he should have complied, and perhaps hired representation later if he was wronged.

    Do you have video of just such a situation?

    If not, please do not project your racism on to the rest of us.

    Thank you

    Excuse me, but I’m the one  saying people should follow instructions from police, and lawyer up later if necessary.    People here are cheering him on.

    • #251
  12. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Lily Bart (View Comment):

    Excuse me, but I’m the one saying people should follow instructions from police, and lawyer up later if necessary. People here are cheering him on.

    Then say that. There is no need to inject race into this situation.

    The thugs on the video are not readily identifiable to me as police. Plumber’s crack notwithstanding.

    • #252
  13. Brian Watt Inactive
    Brian Watt
    @BrianWatt

    Well, the doctor’s very interesting criminal past and strange behavior aside, here’s an interesting article in The Federalist that points out that United may have violated some of the terms of its own Contract of Carriage agreement. Some fancy pants, tassel-loafered lawyer may have fun dissecting this before a judge and jury.

    Are we having fun yet?

    • #253
  14. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Brian Watt (View Comment):
    Well, the doctor’s very interesting criminal past and strange behavior aside, here’s an interesting article in The Federalist that points out that United may have violated some of the terms of its own Contract of Carriage agreement. Some fancy pants, tassel-loafered lawyer may have fun dissecting this before a judge and jury.

    Are we having fun yet?

    The article raises the very issues I mentioned in #147. Except that Sean Davis took the time to research the answers.

    • #254
  15. Matt White Member
    Matt White
    @

    Lily Bart (View Comment):
    Hey USA today is compiling information too

    Here are the major airlines in the report, listed by rates of involuntary denied boardings per 10,000 passengers last year:

    1. Southwest (.99)
    2. JetBlue (.92)
    3. American (.64)
    4. Frontier(.58)
    5. Spirit (.58)
    6. United (.43)
    7. Alaska (.40)
    8. Virgin (.12)
    9. Delta (.10)
    10. Hawaiian (.05)

    This was not a denied boarding. He already boarded and the dragged him out. Do you have statistics on that. It’s going to be a lot closer to 0.

    • #255
  16. Matt White Member
    Matt White
    @

    Moderator Note:

    Reaches a conclusion which is in no way implied by the original comment.

    Lily Bart (View Comment):
    Here is a concerning thought: If a young black male refused to comply with law enforcement and was injured in the ensuing scuffle, we’d blame him and say that it was his fault, he should have complied, and perhaps hired representation later if he was wronged.

    If an aging Asian doctor with anger issues refuses to follow instructions from law enforcement – he was right to resist! Any one would do the same!

    Uneven application of standards?

    Just because you’re racist against Asians doesn’t mean the rest of us will be racist against blacks.

     

    • #256
  17. Lily Bart Inactive
    Lily Bart
    @LilyBart

    Matt White (View Comment):

    Lily Bart (View Comment):
    Hey USA today is compiling information too

    Here are the major airlines in the report, listed by rates of involuntary denied boardings per 10,000 passengers last year:

    1. Southwest (.99)
    2. JetBlue (.92)
    3. American (.64)
    4. Frontier(.58)
    5. Spirit (.58)
    6. United (.43)
    7. Alaska (.40)
    8. Virgin (.12)
    9. Delta (.10)
    10. Hawaiian (.05)

    This was not a denied boarding. He already boarded and the dragged him out. Do you have statistics on that. It’s going to be a lot closer to 0.

    The boarding process is the entire process – ending in the closing of the airplane door (according to a flight attendant (not united) friend of mind.

    • #257
  18. Songwriter Inactive
    Songwriter
    @user_19450

    Lily Bart (View Comment):

    Matt White (View Comment):

    Lily Bart (View Comment):

    The boarding process is the entire process – ending in the closing of the airplane door (according to a flight attendant (not united) friend of mind.

    Yeah – but that’s like using legal jargon as a defense for being a mean-spirited jerk. To the passenger, “boarding” is getting on the plane and taking a seat. This whole mess is about a PR disaster, regardless the legal and technical definitions.

    • #258
  19. Lily Bart Inactive
    Lily Bart
    @LilyBart

    Songwriter (View Comment):

    Lily Bart (View Comment):

    Matt White (View Comment):

    Lily Bart (View Comment):

    The boarding process is the entire process – ending in the closing of the airplane door (according to a flight attendant (not united) friend of mind.

    Yeah – but that’s like using legal jargon as a defense for being a mean-spirited jerk. To the passenger, “boarding” is getting on the plane and taking a seat. This whole mess is about a PR disaster, regardless the legal and technical definitions.

    Look, I think United will pay dearly, and deservedly so, and hopefully change their policies because they suck.  If they’re going to overbook, they need to offer real cash incentives so people volunteer to get off and feel they got a good deal for their trouble.

    I just cannot support this man’s behavior – I think he’s an idiot and I’m concerned that he’ll embolden others to be defiant during the ‘boarding process’ when they don’t like what’s happening, and make the whole process harder for the other people (specifically me).

    If I were the Queen, I’d fine United and use the money to pay this guy’s actual losses (bills and loss of income, etc – no ”pain and suffering’ because he made a choice to refuse to follow police’s instructions) and the send the rest of the money on to some charity that helps kids.

    • #259
  20. Lily Bart Inactive
    Lily Bart
    @LilyBart

    Songwriter (View Comment):

    Lily Bart (View Comment):

    Matt White (View Comment):

    Lily Bart (View Comment):

    The boarding process is the entire process – ending in the closing of the airplane door (according to a flight attendant (not united) friend of mind.

    Yeah – but that’s like using legal jargon as a defense for being a mean-spirited jerk. To the passenger, “boarding” is getting on the plane and taking a seat. This whole mess is about a PR disaster, regardless the legal and technical definitions.

    But aren’t you doing the same thing here, in this case narrowly defining a term – “boarding is over when your fanny is in the seat” to support your view?    Airlines board people everyday – so they would, of course, have a defined meaning for the term.

    And yes, its a disaster.  Let’s hope the flying experience improves because of it!   I’m no fan of the airlines.  I just have to use their services a lot – I want improvement, not amped up chaos as people start daring airlines to ‘make them’ do something they don’t want to do.   I don’t approve rewarding defiance.  This man behaved like a child, and people are getting behind him because they hate the airlines.  Is it possible that ALL parties here were in the wrong?   (including the police guy who was reportedly taken off duty for his poor choices?)

    • #260
  21. Matt White Member
    Matt White
    @

    Matt White (View Comment):

    Lily Bart (View Comment):
    Here is a concerning thought: If a young black male refused to comply with law enforcement and was injured in the ensuing scuffle, we’d blame him and say that it was his fault, he should have complied, and perhaps hired representation later if he was wronged.

    If an aging Asian doctor with anger issues refuses to follow instructions from law enforcement – he was right to resist! Any one would do the same!

    Uneven application of standards?

    Just because you’re racist against Asians doesn’t mean the rest of us will be racist against blacks.

    I just repeated her own accusation back at her. Why does the original stand?

    • #261
  22. cirby Inactive
    cirby
    @cirby

    Miffed White Male (View Comment):

    cirby (View Comment):

    Lily Bart (View Comment):

    cirby (View Comment):

    because he was in the right in wanting to keep his seat. Even United now admits that.

    Could you provide a link? I’m not doubting – just wanting to see what was said.

    The New York Times (a former newspaper).

    Oscar Munoz, the company’s chief executive, said in a statement that United would take “full responsibility” for the situation and that “no one should ever be mistreated this way.”

    You got “United said he had the right to keep his seat” from standard PR boilerplate like “No one should ever be mistreated this way”?

    Yes, I sure did.

    And other comments.

    On the other hand, you’re getting “the airline can do whatever they want” from… well, not much, actually.

    • #262
  23. cirby Inactive
    cirby
    @cirby

    Lily Bart (View Comment):
    The boarding process is the entire process – ending in the closing of the airplane door (according to a flight attendant (not united) friend of mind.

    That’s nice. “The boarding process” is a whole different thing than “he had already boarded.”

    On the other hand, United has also admitted that the boarding process was over, and that they were in the wrong about that, too.

    You know, that whole “we’re going to change the meaning of language to make things easier for our procedures” thing is pretty much starting to go away now. “Boarded,” in this case, means “got on board the plane.” It doesn’t, in real life, mean “he got on board the plane and sat down, but we changed our minds because it could cost us some money.”

    No, the airlines warping common usage doesn’t mean we have to go along with it.

    • #263
  24. cirby Inactive
    cirby
    @cirby

    Lily Bart (View Comment):
    But aren’t you doing the same thing here, in this case narrowly defining a term – “boarding is over when your fanny is in the seat” to support your view? Airlines board people everyday – so they would, of course, have a defined meaning for the term.

    They can “define” it any way they want, but in this case it’s not so much “narrowly” defining as “accurately” defining. They could redefine “boarding” as “boarding the jetway at the other end of the flight,” but that doesn’t mean we have to go along with it.

    • #264
  25. Judge Mental Member
    Judge Mental
    @JudgeMental

    Oscar Munoz in an interview with ABC:

    Interviewer:  Was the doctor at fault at all?

    Munoz: No, not in any way.

    • #265
  26. Songwriter Inactive
    Songwriter
    @user_19450

    Lily Bart (View Comment):
    But aren’t you doing the same thing here, in this case narrowly defining a term – “boarding is over when your fanny is in the seat” to support your view? Airlines board people everyday – so they would, of course, have a defined meaning for the term.

    Not really – or at least that wasn’t my intent.  I’m was simply observing the reality that millions of passengers believe that “boarding the plane” means getting on the plane and taking the seat. That’s the functioning, everyday definition to just about everybody who doesn’t work for an airline.  And in the end – the legal definition is small comfort against the hailstorm of bad PR that has fittingly befallen United.

    And BTW – I totally agree with you that this particular passenger behaved badly. And I agree with your concerns that his behavior may encourage other bad actors. It all stinks. Flying, in general, stinks these days.  That’s why I choose to drive anywhere within an 8-hour distance from where I am, rather than fly.

    • #266
  27. Damocles Inactive
    Damocles
    @Damocles

    Lily Bart (View Comment):
    But aren’t you doing the same thing here, in this case narrowly defining a term – “boarding is over when your fanny is in the seat” to support your view? Airlines board people everyday – so they would, of course, have a defined meaning for the term.

     

    I think that United is correct in the strict legal definition, but that somehow it strikes people as unjust despite the legality.

    Same as Whitewater… totally legal because people signed the agreement, but it seems so unjust that one late payment converts your house payments into rental payments.

    • #267
  28. Instugator Thatcher
    Instugator
    @Instugator

    Songwriter (View Comment):
    And BTW – I totally agree with you that this particular passenger behaved badly. And I agree with your concerns that his behavior may encourage other bad actors.

    Without his behavior and that of United (as well as the people recording the incident), United would have kept doing their illegal behavior.

    I applaud him (with a golf clap) for taking one for the team.

    • #268
  29. Ontheleftcoast Inactive
    Ontheleftcoast
    @Ontheleftcoast

    “Celebrating” Orientalism, Richard Landes’ recent Middle East Forum piece on Edward Said’s impact on academia and policymaking, is pertinent to this discussion:

    ….When the Muslim Brotherhood’s Yusuf Qaradawi says that the “United States and Europe will be conquered not by jihad, but by da’wa,” does that make him a moderate? What if the da’wa preacher is just playing the good cop to the jihadist bad cop? From the perspective of the millennial goal of a global caliphate, the difference between radical and “moderate” Islamists is less a matter of vision than timing, less a matter of differing goals than of differing tactics. Such connections, however, do not register on the radar screens of information professionals who observe Said’s anti-Orientalist strictures. Rather they urge us to see the two as clearly distinct.

    Such an approach, however, falls into a classic jihadist trap. When da’wa proponents of caliphate denounce al-Qaeda or ISIS for their violence, insisting that these jihadists have nothing to do with Islam, they do so as a deceptive cognitive war tactic. They know full well that the Islam they embrace is a religion of conquest. They just do not want the Western “infidels,” their sworn enemies and targets, to acknowledge that implacable, imperialist hostility, at least as long as global jihad is militarily weak. Rather they want Western policymakers to renounce “Islamophobic” talk of world domination and, instead, appease Muslim grievances.

     

    • #269
  30. Owen Findy Inactive
    Owen Findy
    @OwenFindy

    If you haven’t read this, please do so:  http://www.newsweek.com/why-united-were-legally-wrong-deplane-dr-dao-583535

    • #270
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