Retire NeverTrump

 

I was one of the more persistent and vocal NeverTrump people on Ricochet leading up to the election so I think I have the street cred to write this.

It’s time to retire the NeverTrump label.  It was a useful label during the election cycle because it was a clear way on the center-right to identity as people who had made the still reasonable decision not to vote for Trump.  However, I see a variety of problems with its continued use, including:

  1. It signals that you are inflexible and closed-minded.  By persisting in using the label, you’re telling others that no matter what Trump does in his first administration, you won’t vote for him if he runs again in 2020.
  2. It’s already being used for virtual signaling and moral preening here on Ricochet. No one likes that sort of behavior.  I continue to reject the argument that not voting for Trump was de facto morally preening self-righteousness, but now I’m actually seeing it being specifically used for that purpose . I was  clearly wrong about that at least in certain cases.
  3. It’s an unproductive and unnecessary tribal division for the center-right and Ricochet.  I also don’t like the idea of staking out a position where I’m telling people who voted for Trump that I stand waiting to judge them when Trump does something silly or awful and we know that will happen.  I also don’t like the behavior that I’m seeing on the Trump voting side essentially reading me out of the center-right because I didn’t vote for Trump.  It should be self-evident that this is bad behavior not just from an interpersonal standpoint, but as a political one as well.

I’m back to using the term classical liberal as my primary self-label. NeverTrump served a useful and honorable purpose during the election cycle, but I can’t see any usefulness for it now.  I still think he’ll, shall we say, underperform as president, but I could be wrong and end up voting for him in 2020 if he decides to run again. That alone makes the NeverTrump label a poor fit for me and it should for you also.

(She’s gone, right? Gone gone? We’re done with her? Right? Right!?!)

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  1. Will Reaves Member
    Will Reaves
    @WillReaves

    I posted a version of this in another thread, but I felt it was worth repeating here.

    As a former (sort of) Never Trumper, I saw the goal of Never Trump was to keep the man’s failures (temperamental, moral, and political) from destroying conservatism by denying him the nomination/presidency, and now the goal of (former, sort of) Never Trump is to … keep the man’s failures (temperamental, moral, and political) from destroying conservatism by making sure to lobby for conservative ideas that will help the country, even if the President-elect’s liberal instincts lead him in another direction.

    And please make no mistake, Trump still has instincts antithetical to conservatism and good governance. At the moment, it is uncertain whether Trump will follow up on his promises re: Immigration/Obamacare/Religious Liberty/Judges(!)/etc.; it is also uncertain whether he will continue to patronize and empower the alt-right racists, anti-semites, and other groups with which he certainly does not self-identify but felt a need to court; it is also uncertain whether he has the personal discipline or even interest to govern effectively. (Although if he left everything to Pence I’d be ok with it.)

    Absent impeachment, we have to keep working on this for the next four years at least. Like most other self-identified NTs, I hope I’m wrong, and I am praying for my next president. But odds are that it will be exhausting.

    • #91
  2. Ario IronStar Inactive
    Ario IronStar
    @ArioIronStar

    A-Squared:

    Ario IronStar:

    A-Squared:

    Fake John/Jane Galt: What I know is during the membership drive I introduced a handful of people to Ricochet, even bought a membership for one. All left citing the over the top anti Trump rhetoric. Those folk would have been good additions to the membership but now that opportunity is lost.

    Undoubtedly, and I’m sure many small government classical liberals were run off because of over the top pro-Trump rhetoric.

    To which contributor are you referring? I would be very interested to hear your opinion on which contributor (as opposed to the the various members) you found over-the-top pro-Trump? Victor Davis Hanson, maybe? Hmmm….

    I was referring to the membership relentless attacks on anyone that dared criticize the great one.

    People were called anti-American if they didn’t vote for Trump.

    You clearly were reading different threads than I was.

    • #92
  3. Ario IronStar Inactive
    Ario IronStar
    @ArioIronStar

    MSJL:

    Ario IronStar:

    cdor:I have to be honest, I always felt the nevertrump folks were cutting off their collective noses to spite their long,pouty faces. … I also nearly left this site on many occasions because of what seemed to me to be complete bias by the editors, all of whom were nevertrumpers, and the podcasters, most of whom were nevers.

    Although I agree that the time to move on is rapidly approaching, it still seems a little awkward and soon to forget the condescension poured out by some. Just the calling of Trump supporters Trumpkins was meant to be and was indeed dripping with derision. So @publius, I appreciate your effort here, and the time may be right for you, but I am still seeing attitude from the nevers in their posting that makes it not the time for me. I still am mistrustful and not quite ready to grant immunity, mainly because most nevers don’t even want it.

    Agreed in that it is hard to move on when the NeverTrumpers are determined not to move on…

    Seriously, I can’t think of any NeverTrumper who has doubled down since Tuesday night; not here, not in the press, and I’ll bet even Bill Kristol is at least saying cordial things about future opportunities for a Trump Administration. What are you talking about?

    Have you listened to Mona Charen?  If you think she hasn’t “doubled down” we probably don’t have anything further to discuss.

    • #93
  4. Publius Inactive
    Publius
    @Publius

    Ario IronStar:

    A-Squared:

    Ario IronStar:

    A-Squared:

    Fake John/Jane Galt: What I know is during the membership drive I introduced a handful of people to Ricochet, even bought a membership for one. All left citing the over the top anti Trump rhetoric. Those folk would have been good additions to the membership but now that opportunity is lost.

    Undoubtedly, and I’m sure many small government classical liberals were run off because of over the top pro-Trump rhetoric.

    To which contributor are you referring? I would be very interested to hear your opinion on which contributor (as opposed to the the various members) you found over-the-top pro-Trump? Victor Davis Hanson, maybe? Hmmm….

    I was referring to the membership relentless attacks on anyone that dared criticize the great one.

    People were called anti-American if they didn’t vote for Trump.

    You clearly were reading different threads than I was.

    This was a theme with some parts of the Trump supporting world and at least some are doubling down on it.

    http://ricochet.com/389314/helpful-language/

     

    • #94
  5. Ario IronStar Inactive
    Ario IronStar
    @ArioIronStar

    Mr. Conservative:

    MSJL:

    Ario IronStar:

    cdor:…

    Although I agree that the time to move on is rapidly approaching, it still seems a little awkward and soon to forget the condescension poured out by some. Just the calling of Trump supporters Trumpkins was meant to be and was indeed dripping with derision. So @publius, I appreciate your effort here, and the time may be right for you, but I am still seeing attitude from the nevers in their posting that makes it not the time for me. I still am mistrustful and not quite ready to grant immunity, mainly because most nevers don’t even want it.

    Agreed in that it is hard to move on when the NeverTrumpers are determined not to move on…

    Seriously, I can’t think of any NeverTrumper who has doubled down since Tuesday night; not here, not in the press, and I’ll bet even Bill Kristol is at least saying cordial things about future opportunities for a Trump Administration. What are you talking about?

    Almost every post I have read today is themed: Nevertrumpers/Reluctant Trumpers let’s help Trump become the best and most conservative GOP president since Ronald Fricking Reagan.

    Good.

    I think, at this point, your suggestion of universal good-will is exaggerated.  As I said, viz. Mona Charen.  The Weekly Standard podcasts I listen to are not fully encouraging.  But if they move from the negative to the proactive, then good.

     

    • #95
  6. Publius Inactive
    Publius
    @Publius

    The theme from the people who didn’t vote Trump here on Ricochet has generally been support when we can, oppose when necessary, and do whatever we can to get the best result for country on this one.

    Basically, it’s probably going to be a lot like the George W. Bush years for me, but without any sense of ownership which is also different on my part.  This is the first time in my voting life that I didn’t vote for the GOP candidate so it’s sort of uncharted territory for me and probably quite a few other classically liberal people.

    (She is gone? Right?)

    • #96
  7. Ario IronStar Inactive
    Ario IronStar
    @ArioIronStar

    Publius:

    Ario IronStar:

    A-Squared:

    Ario IronStar:

    A-Squared:

    Fake John/Jane Galt: What I know is during the membership drive I introduced a handful of people to Ricochet, even bought a membership for one. All left citing the over the top anti Trump rhetoric. Those folk would have been good additions to the membership but now that opportunity is lost.

    Undoubtedly, and I’m sure many small government classical liberals were run off because of over the top pro-Trump rhetoric.

    To which contributor are you referring? I would be very interested to hear your opinion on which contributor (as opposed to the the various members) you found over-the-top pro-Trump? Victor Davis Hanson, maybe? Hmmm….

    I was referring to the membership relentless attacks on anyone that dared criticize the great one.

    People were called anti-American if they didn’t vote for Trump.

    You clearly were reading different threads than I was.

    This was a theme with some parts of the Trump supporting world and at least some are doubling down on it.

    http://ricochet.com/389314/helpful-language/

    So a member doesn’t trust folks who were indifferent to Hillary’s election in view of Trump?  Shocking.

    Ricochet was full of NeverTrump contributors who did not shy away from the explicit accusation that supporting Trump for any reason was a betrayal of conservatism.

    You want the NeverTrump label retired?  Fine with me.  But contributors who continue as authorities on Trump’s soul ain’t helping.

    • #97
  8. Publius Inactive
    Publius
    @Publius

    Ario IronStar: You want the NeverTrump label retired? Fine with me. But contributors who continue as authorities on Trump’s soul ain’t helping.

    We’ll find out the content of Trump’s character soon enough.  I don’t think there will be any lack of clarity on that point.  He’s not the most opaque person once he starts talking.  He doesn’t have much of an inner-monologue.

    • #98
  9. A-Squared Inactive
    A-Squared
    @ASquared

    Ario IronStar: You clearly were reading different threads than I was.

    Apparently

    • #99
  10. Postmodern Hoplite Coolidge
    Postmodern Hoplite
    @PostmodernHoplite

     

    Mr. Conservative: I bet most never Trumper’s are like me: they cannot wait to be proven they were wrong about Trump. If he governs more conservatively than he campaigned, we are in with both feet. what’s wrong with that?

    Yes, and I couldn’t have said it better myself!

    • #100
  11. Leigh Inactive
    Leigh
    @Leigh

    I’ve been out of Ricochet (and, kind of, the world in general) for a little while, so I’ve missed some of what’s been going on here. But basically, agreed.

    I don’t think I ever used the label, though I ultimately didn’t vote for him. I determined my main duty as a citizen — where I sat — was to protest both candidates.  Mission accomplished (I couldn’t be happier with local results).  But the campaign is over, and it’s a fresh start. I’ll give him that chance. I’ll take his administration as it comes: no blind cheerleading, no instinctive opposition. I expect some good and some bad, sometimes predictable and sometimes not.  If his governance is different from his campaign, he can earn my vote next time around.

    • #101
  12. Cato Rand Inactive
    Cato Rand
    @CatoRand

    I basically agree.  I was very “#NeverTrump.”  Now I’m “#PleaseGod,LetTrumpBeAGoodPresident.”

    • #102
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